It was a nice run, Jokic

[bisme37]

Victor Wembanyama woes? How NBA teams are finding ways to stop the Spurs

On a basic level, teams are working to disrupt the early rhythm of Wembanyama by taking away space.

When attempting to set up shop on the block, you’ll often see Wembanyama’s defender — likely a wing or forward, especially as of late, with the actual center roaming off a non-shooter — work under him, pushing him out (within the rules, of course) to make sure he’s catching the ball further from the basket.

From there, Wembanyama has to read (or attack) a thicket of bodies. It could be peeled-in early help. It might be immediate double teams. There might be (several variations of) zone defense.

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None of those concepts are new, but the uptick in volume is noteworthy. A few stats for your consideration, courtesy of GeniusIQ tracking data:

After averaging an absurd 1.38 points per possession (PPP) on trips featuring a Wembanyama drive through the first five games, that figure has dropped to 0.87 PPP across the two losses.

Wembanyama logged a total of 15 drives in those games — four against the Suns, 11 against the Lakers — with a help defender present on every single one of them. The Lakers game was the first time in his career he logged double-digit drives with a 100% help rate.

After seeing a second defender, or a pure double team, on a season-high 29.4% of his touches against the Lakers, Wembanyama has now seen that time of attention on 22.6% of his touches this season. That ranks third — behind Giannis Antetokounmpo (27.2%) and Zion Williamson (26.3%) — among 142 players to log at least 300 touches this season. For career reference, Wembanyama saw that level of attention on 14.6% of his touches as a rookie, and that slightly dropped to 14.4% last season before it was cut short. This is a huge uptick.

We’ve seen a similar rise in zone defense, particularly when Wembanyama is on the floor. The Spurs have seen a zone on 5.2% of their possessions with Wembanyama present: roughly double his rookie season rate (2.63%) and over five times the rate last season (1.04%)

Unsurprisingly, as Wembanyama has tried to work through these looks and matchups, the Spurs have struggled. When faced with zone, the Wemby-led Spurs have generated a typo-worthy 0.38 PPP. They’ve fared much better on the possessions where Wembanyama is double-teamed (1.04 PPP), but that’s still well below their usual efficiency when he isn’t.

https://sports.yahoo.com/nba/article/victor-wembanyama-woes-how-nba-teams-are-finding-ways-to-stop-the-spurs-161933194.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

[tsherkin]

He's already close to those guys lol. He's getting super star treatment with double teams.

He really isn't close to them offensively yet. The potential is there, though.

[prime1time]

The domination is coming. He's already showing flashes. He's going to this season and an entire offseason to see all of these exotic double teams that opposing defenses will throw at him. And so will his teammates. Spurs will give Wemby the Jokic treatment and start to build a roster that caters to his strengths and compliments his game. Spurs offense will flow through him. Exploiting the double teams that opposing defenses bring. Soon the Spurs will be looking to attack double teams instead of being reactive to them.

Wemby is just getting started. He's going to get stronger, he's going to adapt to double teams. His skill will increase. And they still have their draft picks.

[prime1time]

He's already close to those guys lol. He's getting super star treatment with double teams.

He really isn't close to them offensively yet. The potential is there, though.

He doesn't dominate the ball like other big time offensive players but in terms of the impact he has on the offense he's already there. Teams are sending doubles immediately. Guys like Doncic can put up impressive numbers but that's more so a function of the offense. That's why Doncic goes out and Reaves steps up and Reaves does the same thing. Who's the better offensive player Reaves or Wemby?

[tsherkin]

He doesn't dominate the ball like other big time offensive players but in terms of the impact he has on the offense he's already there.

There isn't a lot to support that, no.

He catches a double, but there are a fair number of guys who demand that.

[prime1time]

Teams that play PnR offense with 3-point shooters spacing the floor and a rim runner and let guys just accumulate a ton of stats like Giannis and Doncic, put up more advance stats but Wemby is a player that must be double teamed. And he's commanding double teams all over the floor. I might be in the minority but I'd rather have a player that must be double teamed than a PnR maestros like Doncic and Giannis. For one their stats are inflated and two, the offenses isn't as efffective in the playoffs. Wemby commanding double teams and building an offensive scheme will translate in the playoffs.

This is the same reason I'd rather have prime Shaq than Giannis. Or Prime Hakeem than Doncic. Yeah Giannis and Doncic have better stats, but the ability to catch the ball and require a double team to be stopped. Yeah, ability to whip the ball for an open 3 or throw a lob or get an open floater/easy layup looks nice but it's an inefficient way to play basketball.

[prime1time]

He doesn't dominate the ball like other big time offensive players but in terms of the impact he has on the offense he's already there.

There isn't a lot to support that, no.

He catches a double, but there are a fair number of guys who demand that.

I'm not talking about coming off the PnR. I'm saying walk on the floor. Catch the ball at the 3-point line, mid-range, low-post. Who in the NBA is a must double team? Like who do you think teams are double teaming in a normal situation at the 3-point line. Who are teams double teaming at the mid-range. And who are teams double teaming in the low post.

[RRyder823]

Teams that play PnR offense with 3-point shooters spacing the floor and a rim runner and let guys just accumulate a ton of stats like Giannis and Doncic, put up more advance stats but Wemby is a player that must be double teamed. And he's commanding double teams all over the floor. I might be in the minority but I'd rather have a player that must be double teamed than a PnR maestros like Doncic and Giannis. For one their stats are inflated and two, the offenses isn't as efffective in the playoffs. Wemby commanding double teams and building an offensive scheme will translate in the playoffs.

This is the same reason I'd rather have prime Shaq than Giannis. Or Prime Hakeem than Doncic. Yeah Giannis and Doncic have better stats, but the ability to catch the ball and require a double team to be stopped. Yeah, ability to whip the ball for an open 3 or throw a lob or get an open floater/easy layup looks nice but it's an inefficient way to play basketball.

Giannis doesnt command double teams now?

That's a new one for this board

Seriously have you watched him play a basketball game?



Sent from my SM-S918U using RealGM mobile app

[prime1time]

He doesn't dominate the ball like other big time offensive players but in terms of the impact he has on the offense he's already there.

There isn't a lot to support that, no.

He catches a double, but there are a fair number of guys who demand that.

I'm not talking about coming off the PnR. I'm saying walk on the floor. Catch the ball at the 3-point line, mid-range, low-post. Who in the NBA is a must double team? Like who do you think teams are double teaming in a normal situation at the 3-point line. Who are teams double teaming at the mid-range. And who are teams double teaming in the low post.

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?s=20
This is actually a really good conversation to have, because the notion of double teaming is a risk/benefit analysis. The better a player teammates are even if the player is a threat to score, defenses won't want to double team. So guys that place with good floor spacing and good teammates, i.e. SGA/Jokic/Giannis (guys who had a team meticously built around them) look better than they would in an average situation. The Spurs and Wemby are still early on in their process and clearly don't have the same caliber of players/skillset of players around Wemby. With that being said, look at what happens in the playoffs. When these teams play better than average teams who also have good defenders.

SGA's fg% the last 2 seasons have been 53.5% and 51.9%. In the playoffs SGA drops to 49.6% and 46.2%. Same thing happens with Jokic fg% drops from 63.2%, 58.3%, 57.6% but in the playoffs he's at 50.9%, 51.9% and 50.6%. Jokic is more interesting than SGA because his assists drop.

The reality is clear. In the playoffs teams play Jokic straight up. Limit his passing and get him to play one-on-one. I have a hard time saying the greatest offensive player in NBA history can't take over games in the playoffs from a scoring perspective whenever he wants to. Wemby is a player with if you play him one-on-one he will destroy you. And it doesn't matter who the defender is.

[tsherkin]

I'm not talking about coming off the PnR. I'm saying walk on the floor. Catch the ball at the 3-point line, mid-range, low-post. Who in the NBA is a must double team? Like who do you think teams are double teaming in a normal situation at the 3-point line. Who are teams double teaming at the mid-range. And who are teams double teaming in the low post.

What I'm saying is that there isn't really any support for the idea that he has the same level of offensive impact as the best offensive players of all-time. That isn't in his bag yet. He's quite good, and he's rapidly improving, but he's not really close to that level. Teams double him, for sure, and he's got lots of tools and he oozes potential, but his actual impact on the game isn't there yet.

[jokeboy86]

Teams that play PnR offense with 3-point shooters spacing the floor and a rim runner and let guys just accumulate a ton of stats like Giannis and Doncic, put up more advance stats but Wemby is a player that must be double teamed. And he's commanding double teams all over the floor. I might be in the minority but I'd rather have a player that must be double teamed than a PnR maestros like Doncic and Giannis. For one their stats are inflated and two, the offenses isn't as efffective in the playoffs. Wemby commanding double teams and building an offensive scheme will translate in the playoffs.

This is the same reason I'd rather have prime Shaq than Giannis. Or Prime Hakeem than Doncic. Yeah Giannis and Doncic have better stats, but the ability to catch the ball and require a double team to be stopped. Yeah, ability to whip the ball for an open 3 or throw a lob or get an open floater/easy layup looks nice but it's an inefficient way to play basketball.

Giannis doesnt command double teams now?

That's a new one for this board

Seriously have you watched him play a basketball game?



Sent from my SM-S918U using RealGM mobile app

Maybe they might mean hard double teams like basically never letting him touch the ball and not only sometimes. I remember with Prime Shaq that most coaches just gave up a lot of times and basically wanted to hard double him every single time. The only reason they couldn't was cause of Kobe and also the Lakers did a good job surrounding Shaq with shooters. Imo from a coaching standpoint teams do not double Giannis nearly enough since he's not the passer that Luka/Jokic/prime Lebron is and his combination of speed, length, and strength has no equal in the league.

[ball_takes23]

Teams that play PnR offense with 3-point shooters spacing the floor and a rim runner and let guys just accumulate a ton of stats like Giannis and Doncic, put up more advance stats but Wemby is a player that must be double teamed. And he's commanding double teams all over the floor. I might be in the minority but I'd rather have a player that must be double teamed than a PnR maestros like Doncic and Giannis. For one their stats are inflated and two, the offenses isn't as efffective in the playoffs. Wemby commanding double teams and building an offensive scheme will translate in the playoffs.

This is the same reason I'd rather have prime Shaq than Giannis. Or Prime Hakeem than Doncic. Yeah Giannis and Doncic have better stats, but the ability to catch the ball and require a double team to be stopped. Yeah, ability to whip the ball for an open 3 or throw a lob or get an open floater/easy layup looks nice but it's an inefficient way to play basketball.

you realize the reason why people dont double Luka is because he's a top 3 passer in the game and would immediately make them regret it, not because he doesn't command one, and the main reason Wemby is commanding constant doubles is because he hasn't yet showed he can make teams pay for it. If Luka was a Wemby level passer he would get doubled much, much, much more often, and vice-versa for Wemby

[levon]

He shouldn't try to be an initiator.

[RRyder823]

Teams that play PnR offense with 3-point shooters spacing the floor and a rim runner and let guys just accumulate a ton of stats like Giannis and Doncic, put up more advance stats but Wemby is a player that must be double teamed. And he's commanding double teams all over the floor. I might be in the minority but I'd rather have a player that must be double teamed than a PnR maestros like Doncic and Giannis. For one their stats are inflated and two, the offenses isn't as efffective in the playoffs. Wemby commanding double teams and building an offensive scheme will translate in the playoffs.

This is the same reason I'd rather have prime Shaq than Giannis. Or Prime Hakeem than Doncic. Yeah Giannis and Doncic have better stats, but the ability to catch the ball and require a double team to be stopped. Yeah, ability to whip the ball for an open 3 or throw a lob or get an open floater/easy layup looks nice but it's an inefficient way to play basketball.

Giannis doesnt command double teams now?

That's a new one for this board

Seriously have you watched him play a basketball game?



Sent from my SM-S918U using RealGM mobile app

Maybe they might mean hard double teams like basically never letting him touch the ball and not only sometimes. I remember with Prime Shaq that most coaches just gave up a lot of times and basically wanted to hard double him every single time. The only reason they couldn't was cause of Kobe and also the Lakers did a good job surrounding Shaq with shooters. Imo from a coaching standpoint teams do not double Giannis nearly enough since he's not the passer that Luka/Jokic/prime Lebron is and his combination of speed, length, and strength has no equal in the league.

I guess but I've seen more then a few teams build "the wall" which is essentially using 3 or 4 players in the paint to stop one guy.

Maybe its just me but I kinda have to assume that would qualify

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[BelgradeNugget]

Teams that play PnR offense with 3-point shooters spacing the floor and a rim runner and let guys just accumulate a ton of stats like Giannis and Doncic, put up more advance stats but Wemby is a player that must be double teamed. And he's commanding double teams all over the floor. I might be in the minority but I'd rather have a player that must be double teamed than a PnR maestros like Doncic and Giannis. For one their stats are inflated and two, the offenses isn't as efffective in the playoffs. Wemby commanding double teams and building an offensive scheme will translate in the playoffs.

This is the same reason I'd rather have prime Shaq than Giannis. Or Prime Hakeem than Doncic. Yeah Giannis and Doncic have better stats, but the ability to catch the ball and require a double team to be stopped. Yeah, ability to whip the ball for an open 3 or throw a lob or get an open floater/easy layup looks nice but it's an inefficient way to play basketball.

So, Giannis who won it all has inflated stats and isn't efective in the playoffs. Doncic who led his team to NBA finals has inflated stats and isn't efective in the playoffs. But Wemby who never made it to the playoffs is sure thing? Slow down a little bit.
And of course players stats are worst in the playoffs, that is where you play good teams with good coaches ready to adjuse their defense.
You don't get a chance to sh*t on this Mavs, Pelicans or Nets in the playoffs.

[zimpy27]

Wemby needs to work on his passing out of double teams. Luka or Giannis or Jokic or LeBron would all be able to do that to take advantage of the double.

I don't think he gets to that level though, the alternative will be getting better offensive players on the Spurs. If that happens then I think Wemby will be contained to a 20-25ppg player.

I don't really see a circumstance where Wemby can be an efficient ~30ppg player. I think he should aim to be a better version of Anthony Davis. Defense and efficient 25ppg.

[BelgradeNugget]

The reality is clear. In the playoffs teams play Jokic straight up. Limit his passing and get him to play one-on-one. I have a hard time saying the greatest offensive player in NBA history can't take over games in the playoffs from a scoring perspective whenever he wants to. Wemby is a player with if you play him one-on-one he will destroy you. And it doesn't matter who the defender is.

Simply not truth. I see you never heard of famous "Rui adjustment" vs Lakers, or why Westbrook, Braun and Watson had so many open 3s last season.

[Duke4life831]

Havent watched any Denver games this year yet, so this is straight up box score lurking. But my god Jokic is 1st in the NBA in rebounds per game, assists per game (leading by almost 2 assists per game) and hes not even top 10 in turnovers, hell he's barely top 50 in turnovers (47th). He's 1st in TS% when you compare him against other high volume scorers. And on top of all of that, he's putting up those ridiculous offensive numbers without even being top 30 in the league when it comes to Time Per Possession.

He's the most complete offensive player to ever play the game. And he has shown zero signs of slowing down, if anything he is getting better each year. And there is nothing about his game that shouldnt age very well. Nothing about his game relies on any kind of vertical athleticism or quick burst athleticism. If you sat there and told me right now that say at the age of 36 he will be just as good as when he was say 28, I wouldnt second guess that at all.

The funny thing is, Wemby has been viewed as the guy that is going to be the example for "player X just was born at the wrong time because he has to play when Wemby played." While in reality, we could end up saying, "Wemby got real unlucky because he came around during prime Jokic, that's just some bad luck."

[Infinite Llamas]

Havent watched any Denver games this year yet, so this is straight up box score lurking. But my god Jokic is 1st in the NBA in rebounds per game, assists per game (leading by almost 2 assists per game) and hes not even top 10 in turnovers, hell he's barely top 50 in turnovers (47th). He's 1st in TS% when you compare him against other high volume scorers. And on top of all of that, he's putting up those ridiculous offensive numbers without even being top 30 in the league when it comes to Time Per Possession.

He's the most complete offensive player to ever play the game. And he has shown zero signs of slowing down, if anything he is getting better each year. And there is nothing about his game that shouldnt age very well. Nothing about his game relies on any kind of vertical athleticism or quick burst athleticism. If you sat there and told me right now that say at the age of 36 he will be just as good as when he was say 28, I wouldnt second guess that at all.

The funny thing is, Wemby has been viewed as the guy that is going to be the example for "player X just was born at the wrong time because he has to play when Wemby played." While in reality, we could end up saying, "Wemby got real unlucky because he came around during prime Jokic, that's just some bad luck."

Jokic shooting .966 from 0-3 is a pretty amazing stat too.

[Duke4life831]

Havent watched any Denver games this year yet, so this is straight up box score lurking. But my god Jokic is 1st in the NBA in rebounds per game, assists per game (leading by almost 2 assists per game) and hes not even top 10 in turnovers, hell he's barely top 50 in turnovers (47th). He's 1st in TS% when you compare him against other high volume scorers. And on top of all of that, he's putting up those ridiculous offensive numbers without even being top 30 in the league when it comes to Time Per Possession.

He's the most complete offensive player to ever play the game. And he has shown zero signs of slowing down, if anything he is getting better each year. And there is nothing about his game that shouldnt age very well. Nothing about his game relies on any kind of vertical athleticism or quick burst athleticism. If you sat there and told me right now that say at the age of 36 he will be just as good as when he was say 28, I wouldnt second guess that at all.

The funny thing is, Wemby has been viewed as the guy that is going to be the example for "player X just was born at the wrong time because he has to play when Wemby played." While in reality, we could end up saying, "Wemby got real unlucky because he came around during prime Jokic, that's just some bad luck."

Jokic shooting .966 from 0-3 is a pretty amazing stat too.

Haha ya I had to double take when I saw that. 1/4 of his shots are coming from there and he's making it at a freaking 96% clip haha, thats just stupid.

That's the other thing, look at his shot selection, its basically perfection. Only 8% of his shots come from 10ft-inside the 3. And even then he's ridiculous at those areas (57% from 10-16ft and 100% from 16ft-3pt). The only negative is, he's shooting 33% from 3. But since his first MVP, he's been a 38% 3pt shooter and a 39% 3pt career shooter in the playoffs. So the dude is also money from 3.

Ive said this before, but he really is the only player I can think of that is essentially elite at every phase on offense. Elite facilitator (probably can make the argument he's a top 5-10 facilitator of all time). The best back to the basket low post scorer in the league. Elite from all mid range. Elite at creating his own shot from anywhere on the court. And to me the craziest and best part about his game is the Time Per Possession. You look at his stats and you immediately think he is the center of a heliocentric offense. Because you kind of have to dominate the ball and offense to put up the high volume scoring and facilitating numbers, well at least you had to until Jokic came around. Again the dude isnt even top 30 in Time Per Possession.

Hell the crazy thing is, you could make an argument he's the 2nd option on offense. Murray takes 2 more shots per game and tops the team in Time Per Possession. That right there screams #1 option. But that's the crazy thing with Jokic. He touches the ball as much as anyone, but it never sticks. His level of decision making when it comes to the quickness of decisions is not just on his own tier. His tier is so on such a different level, you cant see any other tiers. Which makes him so easy to play with. Whether it be a "2nd option" player like Murray, who gets to dominate the ball and put up shots like he is a 1st option, while simultaneously being treated like a 3rd option because of how much gravity Jokic attracts. Or if your just some low volume off ball guy like a Brown, Braun, Gordon and so on. Because theyre not just chilling in the corner watching Jokic dribble out the ball and waiting on a possible kick out. They're running around and getting plenty of touches because they know if they move they'll get plenty of touches.

Very long story short haha, he's the best offensive player to ever play the game. Even Wemby being an alien, great chance we look back at Wemby's career and think to ourselves, "damn just think about the amount of individual awards he couldve racked up, if he wasnt so unlucky to come around during Jokic's prime."