Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon

[tontoz]

We're now statistically in the territory where it's more likely than not that Deni is better than anyone we get in this upcoming draft lul, even including #1 overall

That is ridiculous. Deni is still mediocre from 3 and very turnover prone. Teams leave him open from 3 at times. He was 5-17 last game. Holiday was the hero making 6 threes. Let's not forget that OKC was missing Chet/Jdub/Dort.

Deni might make the All-Star game, might not. Glad he is doing well and winning but lets not get carried away here.

Teams leaving Deni open from three is utter BS, I've watched every Portland game. Most of his threes are now off the dribble, not spot ups, because him and Holiday are the best at penetrating on that team, so he doesn't really benefit from the kick-out at all.

Yes he was 5-17 in that game but 5-6 last six shots and 15-16 from the line. He made made had at least two big buckets down the stretch and made assists on another 2-3 baskets. Also best +/- among starters (+6) in a game won by 2 while pulling down 10 boards and 9 assists. Not to mention he's still sporting a 62 TS% this season. That OKC team missing those players still were whipping the **** out of other teams, OKC is stacked and a juggernaut, you can only play you opponent that's on the floor. They also have wins against a fully healthy Warriors and Nuggets team too, where Deni was integral to both dubs.

The beauty also about his game is he doesn't have to rely on the three point game which he's been fine enough over the last three shooting, shooting essentially league average over the last couple years. He's elite at getting to the rim, drawing contact and getting fouls. You can be an elite 3 without elite three point shooting if you are adept like he is at getting to the rim.

I watched the games. There were times where Deni was open for a 3 on a swing pass and the defenders didn't even try to close out.

I am not saying their strategy is to leave him open from 3 all the time like Castle, but when they have to choose between leaving him open or closing out hard from distance sometimes they are choosing to let him shoot. It makes sense because he is a bigger threat going to the basket.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

That is ridiculous. Deni is still mediocre from 3 and very turnover prone. Teams leave him open from 3 at times. He was 5-17 last game. Holiday was the hero making 6 threes. Let's not forget that OKC was missing Chet/Jdub/Dort.

Deni might make the All-Star game, might not. Glad he is doing well and winning but lets not get carried away here.

Teams leaving Deni open from three is utter BS, I've watched every Portland game. Most of his threes are now off the dribble, not spot ups, because him and Holiday are the best at penetrating on that team, so he doesn't really benefit from the kick-out at all.

Yes he was 5-17 in that game but 5-6 last six shots and 15-16 from the line. He made made had at least two big buckets down the stretch and made assists on another 2-3 baskets. Also best +/- among starters (+6) in a game won by 2 while pulling down 10 boards and 9 assists. Not to mention he's still sporting a 62 TS% this season. That OKC team missing those players still were whipping the **** out of other teams, OKC is stacked and a juggernaut, you can only play you opponent that's on the floor. They also have wins against a fully healthy Warriors and Nuggets team too, where Deni was integral to both dubs.

The beauty also about his game is he doesn't have to rely on the three point game which he's been fine enough over the last three shooting, shooting essentially league average over the last couple years. He's elite at getting to the rim, drawing contact and getting fouls. You can be an elite 3 without elite three point shooting if you are adept like he is at getting to the rim.

I watched the games. There were times where Deni was open for a 3 on a swing pass and the defenders didn't even try to close out.

I am not saying their strategy is to leave him open from 3 all the time like Castle, but when they have to choose between leaving him open or closing out hard from distance sometimes they are choosing to let him shoot. It makes sense because he is a bigger threat going to the basket.

Well sure, I'm sure over the course of the season he's going to get some open looks from three because, hell, you'd rather him shoot a three than bully his way to the rim, which he still does anyway. You made it seem like this is the Deni of old sitting in the corner and teams willing to live with him making threes. He can now make teams pay for that. That's just not the case, he's shooting about league average from three despite his attempts, on average, being a higher degree of difficulty. Hey I'm not sitting here and saying Deni is an elite three point shooter by any stretch, it's just kind of superficial to use it as a knock against him. I see it as not a knock against him, but the amount of respect he gets for driving to the rim.

[tontoz]

Well sure, I'm sure over the course of the season he's going to get some open looks from three because, hell, you'd rather him shoot a three than bully his way to the rim, which he still does anyone. You made it seem like this is the Deni of old sitting in the corner and team willing to live with him making threes. He can now make teams pay for that. That's just not the case, he's shooting about league average from three despite his attempts, on average, being a higher degree of difficulty. Hey I'm not sitting here and saying Deni is an elite three point shooter by any stretch, it's just kind of superficial to use it as a knock against him. I see it as not a knock against him, but the amount of respect he gets for driving to the rim.

Which is why i said they leave him open "at times".

I would assume the scouting report is that he attacks close outs aggressively so they are just choosing to let him shoot rather than let him get to the paint/foul line. He got to the line 16 times last game.

[dckingsfan]

Read on Twitter

And honestly... Deni has had another slow start to the season. Hoping he gets the All-Star nod.

[Dat2U]

The Deni trade was a mistake. No doubt about it. I would love to land a Deni in this draft outside of Peterson & Dybantsa lol. Sarr, Avdija, George +++ would have been a formidable core to build around; and there would be plenty of cap room to address any backcourt concerns. Yet no front office is perfect. You just want them to be right more often than not. They clearly nailed both the Sarr & Kyshawn picks and that still puts us in position to be a force in the league if we hit in the 2026 lottery. So while the Deni trade in retrospect is a set back, nailing a couple picks and being patient with the tank still allows us to be in a very strong position going forward.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

The Deni trade was a mistake. No doubt about it. I would love to land a Deni in this draft outside of Peterson & Dybantsa lol. Sarr, Avdija, George +++ would have been a formidable core to build around; and there would be plenty of cap room to address any backcourt concerns. Yet no front office is perfect. You just want them to be right more often than not. They clearly nailed both the Sarr & Kyshawn picks and that still puts us in position to be a force in the league if we hit in the 2026 lottery. So while the Deni trade in retrospect is a set back, nailing a couple picks and being patient with the tank still allows us to be in a very strong position going forward.

This new zombie line that the team wouldn't be in position to have had a high pick in this past draft and this upcoming year with Deni on the roster has officially become group think. This team is 1-7 as currently stands giving up almost 130 PPG with a -16.2 differential says to me very few players, if any, could be put on this team and put it at a serious disadvantage of losing tanking ground.

Sarr is also far from a hit, based on where he was picked. Again, nice start to the season for sure, but he has to do if for more than the first 2 weeks of the season to say that it is clear cut. This also coming after a horrible rookie season by almost all accounts. Same goes for Kyshawn, though I could buy the argument it is already considered a hit based on draft position to some degree. I will note that George had a positive on-ff last year of +4.8, a silver lining to a horrendous year. This year that has flipped and he's -4.2. Small sample size, but the same jumping to conclusion we saw early in this thread last year when it came to Deni's first few weeks with Portland feel like they are resurfacing.

Finally "the all GMs make an oopsie" is the definition of zero accountability being placed on this iteration of the franchise's management. Has a reporter even asked Dawkins about the trade in hindsight? Yeah fumble away a guy you can plug in to the 2-4, who is young, who is now exploding, and we'll just chalk it up to a mulligan. This is why I came up with the Dawkintologist moniker, because all reason goes out the window with some with the guy because he's not someone named Grunfeld or someone who worked with Grunfeld so he's a some godsend. I take the point of view that the bar is just painfully low with this franchise, and it's fan are used to just kind of eating it. I don't care because some NBA podcasters love what Dawkins is doing, those same guys by and large loved this move.

You don't horribly flub a trade like this and it's just an oopsie in my book, no matter the other thing you might like what he's doing.

[nate33]

The Deni trade was a mistake. No doubt about it. I would love to land a Deni in this draft outside of Peterson & Dybantsa lol. Sarr, Avdija, George +++ would have been a formidable core to build around; and there would be plenty of cap room to address any backcourt concerns. Yet no front office is perfect. You just want them to be right more often than not. They clearly nailed both the Sarr & Kyshawn picks and that still puts us in position to be a force in the league if we hit in the 2026 lottery. So while the Deni trade in retrospect is a set back, nailing a couple picks and being patient with the tank still allows us to be in a very strong position going forward.

This new zombie line that the team wouldn't be in position to have had a high pick in this past draft and this upcoming year with Deni on the roster has officially become group think. This team is 1-7 as currently stands giving up almost 130 PPG with a -16.2 differential says to me very few players, if any, could be put on this team and put it at a serious disadvantage of losing tanking ground.

Sarr is also far from a hit, based on where he was picked. Again, nice start to the season for sure, but he has to do if for more than the first 2 weeks of the season to say that it is clear cut. This also coming after a horrible rookie season by almost all accounts. Same goes for Kyshawn, though I could buy the argument it is already considered a hit based on draft position to some degree. I will note that George had a positive on-ff last year of +4.8, a silver lining to a horrendous year. This year that has flipped and he's -4.2. Small sample size, but the same jumping to conclusion we saw early in this thread last year when it came to Deni's first few weeks with Portland feel like they are resurfacing.

Finally "the all GMs make an oopsie" is the definition of zero accountability being placed on this iteration of the franchise's management. Has a reporter even asked Dawkins about the trade in hindsight? Yeah fumble away a guy you can plug in to the 2-4, who is young, who is now exploding, and we'll just chalk it up to a mulligan. This is why I came up with the Dawkintologist moniker, because all reason goes out the window with some with the guy because he's not someone named Grunfeld or someone who worked with Grunfeld so he's a some godsend. I take the point of view that the bar is just painfully low with this franchise, and it's fan are used to just kind of eating it. I don't care because some NBA podcasters love what Dawkins is doing, those same guys by and large loved this move.

You don't horribly flub a trade like this and it's just an oopsie in my book, no matter the other thing you might like what he's doing.

A couple of good points here, a couple not so good.

I agree completely that we definitely could still have lost games with Deni in the fold, and would probably still be losing them now. I contend that if Deni was on the roster last year, we would have been just as likely, if not MORE likely to end up with the Charlotte pick (#4) or the Philly pick (#3) than we would have ended up with the New Orleans pick (#7) or the Brooklyn pick (#8). And this year, even with Deni on board, it may not have made too much difference. We are 1-7 and we lost by 13 points or more in all but 1 of our losses. Even if Deni was worth 8 points a game, we would still be 2-6.

And trading Deni in Summer 2025 was always an option if tanking seemed impossible. Deni for Harper made too much sense for both teams. If we hadn't traded Deni in 2024, we could honestly have Harper and VJ right now instead of Bub, Tre and the 2029 Portland pick.

That said, one should be fair when evaluating the moves made by the organization. Yes, the Deni trade was an abject disaster, but I think they've done a pretty good job for the most part in other aspects of the rebuild. They have competently leveraged cap room to acquire picks or good, low-cost veterans that they then exchanged for picks. They turned Gafford into Kyshawn. And effectively acquired the pick capital for Will Riley out of thin air. That's pretty adept GMing for a team that entered a rebuild with no virtually no assets in cupboard and one protected FRP owed to NY.

Sarr is looking like he will pan out somewhere between "solid starter" and "All-NBA caliber star", so he was clearly the right pick in a bad 2024 draft. In a redraft, I don't think there's anyone who would argue the Wizards should have taken someone else. In the abstract, he is looking like the best player in the draft class with the possible exception of Castle, and when factoring need, our need at center was far greater than it was for another defensive-minded wing. And Kyshawn obviously turned out to be the best guy available when he was selected. So to go 2 for 2 on those 2 guys as the absolute best possible selection is good. The Bub pick is looking bad, but I'd still take a 2 out of 3 record when the 2 good picks look like career starters at worst and All-Star talents at best.

I mostly only try and blame management for obvious mistakes that were made at the time they happened. I though the Deni trade was obviously bad, and I think the way they squandered Porzingis' value was disappointing. I don't have any problem at all with the rest of their trades and with their draft record. I was happy with Bilal when it happened. I was fine with the Sarr trade (I leaned toward Sheppard but totally understood the upside reach). I would have taken McCain over Bub, but I would not have picked Kyshawn, so I'll chalk that up to management being smarter than me on that front. I agreed with the Tre pick. And the guys I liked over Riley (Jase Richardson and Wolf) so far haven't done anything so management was again smarter than me.

[The Consiglieri]

What’s sad is that most of us saw this coming. A Deni/Kyshawn/Sarr front court could have been special.

No it wouldn't. For whatever reason people are going to perpetually turn what was an underpay (and almost all of us said it at the time), into the worst trade in the history of life, ignoring, as always, what the trade was about.
It wasn't for Bub.
1. It was for 2 first round picks.
2.Other goodies.

And just as important as #1, #3: To ensure we didn't win 28-40 games, and became what Portland seems likely to become, a 34-38 win, nothing burger going forward.

They wanted to acquire some draft capital, and to hit absolutely rock bottom for the '25 and '26 classes, both of which looked good based upon scouting reports.

You guys can fantasize and dream all you want about the alternate world where we kept Deni, but after 45 years of watching this perpetual train wreck, the end result of that direction should have been obvious: a sub .500 perpetual non-contender that would need monstrously good luck, in a mega stud class to escape the hamster wheel of mediocrity, something that has literally never happened for the Wizards ever, even as it constantly happens for franchises like the Spurs.

That's the Deni route.

None of this justifies the selling low stupidity that was the Deni trade. Some tried to argue at the time that a late lottery pick in a horrific draft class ('24), and another random future first, and some players we might be able to Boyd trade, and a couple of 2nds wasn't the 3 nickels, a dime and a quarter for a dollar that it clearly was. I'm not defending the assets acquired. As I had said months earlier, I thought they would trade Deni (something most of you found ridiculous to imagine when I said it), I just assumed they would acquire a top 5-10 pick in a good class, and a speculative first in a future year plus more. What I didn't want was a teens pick in a ---- class that was at best, 9 times out of 10, gonna deliver nothing better than a 6th man, or some replacement level starter at best. That, was totally asinine.

So yeah, I'm not a fan, it was obviously a lost trade, but the reasoning behind it, the process, was sound, the execution was ----, at least to me anyway.

People are fixating on losing Deni, but that was always likely, the problem is that they should have demanded more, or held out on trading him until winter deadline '25 or summer '25. We sucked far too much to avoid a decent lottery slot in '25 with Deni, and we absolutely would have gained more by holding. I'm pretty shocked at what they settled for, however it's worth mentioning that on the Zach Lowe show the other day, he and guest were shaking their head at how little they got for Deni and yet Lowe or the other guy mentioned NBA GM's they queried on the topic, thought it was tilted heavily towards us, which suggests that Deni was still severely undervalued league wide summer '24. So perhaps we were just living in a world where we were never getting fair value for Deni, or at least fair value in '24.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

The Deni trade was a mistake. No doubt about it. I would love to land a Deni in this draft outside of Peterson & Dybantsa lol. Sarr, Avdija, George +++ would have been a formidable core to build around; and there would be plenty of cap room to address any backcourt concerns. Yet no front office is perfect. You just want them to be right more often than not. They clearly nailed both the Sarr & Kyshawn picks and that still puts us in position to be a force in the league if we hit in the 2026 lottery. So while the Deni trade in retrospect is a set back, nailing a couple picks and being patient with the tank still allows us to be in a very strong position going forward.

This new zombie line that the team wouldn't be in position to have had a high pick in this past draft and this upcoming year with Deni on the roster has officially become group think. This team is 1-7 as currently stands giving up almost 130 PPG with a -16.2 differential says to me very few players, if any, could be put on this team and put it at a serious disadvantage of losing tanking ground.

Sarr is also far from a hit, based on where he was picked. Again, nice start to the season for sure, but he has to do if for more than the first 2 weeks of the season to say that it is clear cut. This also coming after a horrible rookie season by almost all accounts. Same goes for Kyshawn, though I could buy the argument it is already considered a hit based on draft position to some degree. I will note that George had a positive on-ff last year of +4.8, a silver lining to a horrendous year. This year that has flipped and he's -4.2. Small sample size, but the same jumping to conclusion we saw early in this thread last year when it came to Deni's first few weeks with Portland feel like they are resurfacing.

Finally "the all GMs make an oopsie" is the definition of zero accountability being placed on this iteration of the franchise's management. Has a reporter even asked Dawkins about the trade in hindsight? Yeah fumble away a guy you can plug in to the 2-4, who is young, who is now exploding, and we'll just chalk it up to a mulligan. This is why I came up with the Dawkintologist moniker, because all reason goes out the window with some with the guy because he's not someone named Grunfeld or someone who worked with Grunfeld so he's a some godsend. I take the point of view that the bar is just painfully low with this franchise, and it's fan are used to just kind of eating it. I don't care because some NBA podcasters love what Dawkins is doing, those same guys by and large loved this move.

You don't horribly flub a trade like this and it's just an oopsie in my book, no matter the other thing you might like what he's doing.

A couple of good points here, a couple not so good.

I agree completely that we definitely could still have lost games with Deni in the fold, and would probably still be losing them now. I contend that if Deni was on the roster last year, we would have been just as likely, if not MORE likely to end up with the Charlotte pick (#4) or the Philly pick (#3) than we would have ended up with the New Orleans pick (#7) or the Brooklyn pick (#8). And this year, even with Deni on board, it may not have made too much difference. We are 1-7 and we lost by 13 points or more in all but 1 of our losses. Even if Deni was worth 8 points a game, we would still be 2-6.

And trading Deni in Summer 2025 was always an option if tanking seemed impossible. Deni for Harper made too much sense for both teams. If we hadn't traded Deni in 2024, we could honestly have Harper and VJ right now instead of Bub, Tre and the 2029 Portland pick.

That said, one should be fair when evaluating the moves made by the organization. Yes, the Deni trade was an abject disaster, but I think they've done a pretty good job for the most part in other aspects of the rebuild. They have competently leveraged cap room to acquire picks or good, low-cost veterans that they then exchanged for picks. They turned Gafford into Kyshawn. And effectively acquired the pick capital for Will Riley out of thin air. That's pretty adept GMing for a team that entered a rebuild with no virtually no assets in cupboard and one protected FRP owed to NY.

Sarr is looking like he will pan out somewhere between "solid starter" and "All-NBA caliber star", so he was clearly the right pick in a bad 2024 draft. In a redraft, I don't think there's anyone who would argue the Wizards should have taken someone else. In the abstract, he is looking like the best player in the draft class with the possible exception of Castle, and when factoring need, our need at center was far greater than it was for another defensive-minded wing. And Kyshawn obviously turned out to be the best guy available when he was selected. So to go 2 for 2 on those 2 guys as the absolute best possible selection is good. The Bub pick is looking bad, but I'd still take a 2 out of 3 record when the 2 good picks look like career starters at worst and All-Star talents at best.

I mostly only try and blame management for obvious mistakes that were made at the time they happened. I though the Deni trade was obviously bad, and I think the way they squandered Porzingis' value was disappointing. I don't have any problem at all with the rest of their trades and with their draft record. I was happy with Bilal when it happened. I was fine with the Sarr trade (I leaned toward Sheppard but totally understood the upside reach). I would have taken McCain over Bub, but I would not have picked Kyshawn, so I'll chalk that up to management being smarter than me on that front. I agreed with the Tre pick. And the guys I liked over Riley (Jase Richardson and Wolf) so far haven't done anything so management was again smarter than me.

Agree with the first two points, and I've said plenty of times it's not just about a trading Deni. If they got an offer they couldn't refuse I could have lived with it even though I seemingly rate Deni a lot higher as a player I'd like to have been a core part of this rebuild rebuild because I think embodies the exact kind of player this league needs more of as opposed to other that were fine as long as it was undoing anything anyway even remotely connected to the EG era (i.e., Tommy). Problem is they didn't get an offer they couldn't refuse, nothing close to it, it was painfully obvious from the get go despite some desperately trying to make that case.

As far as the draft picks go, I'm saying the dust has yet to settle on anything. 67 games of terrible basketball from Sarr last year isn't erased by a couple of good games this season when we are consistently getting blown out. Now I'm not putting that all on Sarr, he was a rookie last season, and he actually has a really solid on-off through 8 games this season, I'm just saying I need more. Also he was consensus top 3 pick, again like Beal and Porter were, picking guys where they should have been picked isn't something I'm giving a ton of kudos for. I still think Sheppard (he was buried because of Houston's depth last year) and Clingan (he's a big body and fairly skilled, something you can't teach) are players that could have been picked there. As for Kyshawn, I don't really disagree with anything you said although it is still very early as with Sarr. Regarding Bub, I've never got what others have seen other than he's the local kid and seems like a good guy. Yeah if he was a PG (he's not), he'd have great size for his position but he's not. I'm not bullish on Bilal at all, he's obviously rangy but his defense is completely overrated aside from highlight plays. Maybe he becomes a good defender, I dunno, but he's been kind of meh considering some act like he's some defensive ace or soon to be. Seems like he was a pick based on their positional size and length advantages no matter what. Tre and Riley obviously not worth talking about at this point, but I don't think Tre was a bad pick given position and I know very little about Riley truth be told.

Trading wise, I think Dawkins has largely sucked outside of his first two trades of Beal and Gafford. Deni and Zinger are obvious examples, but largely it's felt like most of his trades are deck shuffling at best. Trades that look like you're doing something but it's really just a smoke machine. It's funny, seemed like there was a ton of Cam Whitmore love on this board after that trade, actually some lineups that basically benched Kyshawn, but just another dud or at the very least nothing really to see other than the initial "We made a trade" euphoria. Same thing with signings in the offseason, signing everyone and their grandma to make some noise, basically zero having come from it.

All things considered, I just weight the Deni blunder really heavily compared to other things.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

What’s sad is that most of us saw this coming. A Deni/Kyshawn/Sarr front court could have been special.

No it wouldn't. For whatever reason people are going to perpetually turn what was an underpay (and almost all of us said it at the time), into the worst trade in the history of life, ignoring, as always, what the trade was about.
It wasn't for Bub.
1. It was for 2 first round picks.
2.Other goodies.

And just as important as #1, #3: To ensure we didn't win 28-40 games, and became what Portland seems likely to become, a 34-38 win, nothing burger going forward.

They wanted to acquire some draft capital, and to hit absolutely rock bottom for the '25 and '26 classes, both of which looked good based upon scouting reports.

You guys can fantasize and dream all you want about the alternate world where we kept Deni, but after 45 years of watching this perpetual train wreck, the end result of that direction should have been obvious: a sub .500 perpetual non-contender that would need monstrously good luck, in a mega stud class to escape the hamster wheel of mediocrity, something that has literally never happened for the Wizards ever, even as it constantly happens for franchises like the Spurs.

That's the Deni route.

None of this justifies the selling low stupidity that was the Deni trade. Some tried to argue at the time that a late lottery pick in a horrific draft class ('24), and another random future first, and some players we might be able to Boyd trade, and a couple of 2nds wasn't the 3 nickels, a dime and a quarter for a dollar that it clearly was. I'm not defending the assets acquired. As I had said months earlier, I thought they would trade Deni (something most of you found ridiculous to imagine when I said it), I just assumed they would acquire a top 5-10 pick in a good class, and a speculative first in a future year plus more. What I didn't want was a teens pick in a ---- class that was at best, 9 times out of 10, gonna deliver nothing better than a 6th man, or some replacement level starter at best. That, was totally asinine.

So yeah, I'm not a fan, it was obviously a lost trade, but the reasoning behind it, the process, was sound, the execution was ----, at least to me anyway.

People are fixating on losing Deni, but that was always likely, the problem is that they should have demanded more, or held out on trading him until winter deadline '25 or summer '25. We sucked far too much to avoid a decent lottery slot in '25 with Deni, and we absolutely would have gained more by holding. I'm pretty shocked at what they settled for, however it's worth mentioning that on the Zach Lowe show the other day, he and guest were shaking their head at how little they got for Deni and yet Lowe or the other guy mentioned NBA GM's they queried on the topic, thought it was tilted heavily towards us, which suggests that Deni was still severely undervalued league wide summer '24. So perhaps we were just living in a world where we were never getting fair value for Deni, or at least fair value in '24.

I'm sorry, you're just not a wartime consigliere.

Your bottoming out argument is just fundamentally flawed, we could still have done that. Even that said, how the draft odds are, you don't need to completely bottom out given how much they've flattened the odds. Nate has belabored this point, others have as well. It's just an oversimplification of things. Just because the franchise has been in mediocrity (in it's best years) for the last 50 years has absolutely nothing to do with how the franchise should have evaluated Deni. Again just an oversimplification of things. You also say but "the reasoning behind it, the process, was sound, the execution was ----", I disagree with this train of thought. Executing is the whole damn point despite hopes and wishes, that is at the crux of this whole debate. Who gives a **** what Dawkins thought if he completely whiffed on execution?

Finally I'm tired of people acting like a Deni type player just grow on trees, that he's a player that would have been assured us mediocrity. Another zombie line that Deni just isn't a piece you truly want to rebuild around. This is always a tacit attitude for some reason, something about Deni, you couldn't possibly see him as a franchise cornerstone because who the hell knows?

Regard to the Lowe's of the world, I'm sure plenty of guys in the NBA insider realms are trying to cover their asses on their initial assessments of the trade. Again as I said to nate, seems like the talking heads by-and-large thought it was a great trade, herding together like bad political pollsters, because they are afraid of getting it wrong, but still get it wrong.

[payitforward]

All good points.

A favorable final judgment on results will require that we get very lucky w/ one or more of the 3 picks coming to us. It'll also help if Bub develops well.

The picks turning out great would be great, obviously, but doesn't really affect judgment of the trade itself.

[TGW]

33 points, 11 rebounds, 8 assists tonight.

Some people in the Dawkins circle-jerk thread were saying he'll never be an all-star. Well he's going to get some votes this year.

[nate33]

33 points, 11 rebounds, 8 assists tonight.

Some people in the Dawkins circle-jerk thread were saying he'll never be an all-star. Well he's going to get some votes this year.

And he was +24 in 36 minutes. In the 12 minutes he sat, Portland got outscored by 29.

[MOSH]

I think its time you shift the conversation.
The trade is lost, there's no doubt about it.
Sure, in few years, it might change, who knows, but that's a superb long shot... Until then, its done.

What is more interesting is the how. How did this happen and what did the Wizards do wrong?

I think that Deni came to a bad situation where the team wanted to win and not to develop, but I just wonder, where the signs always out there?
Even I, that was born and raised in the same place as Deni, didn't think he could take this leap in the NBA.
Sure, he was always dominant when he was young, but the NBA is a different ballpark.

Those whom are watching him play since the all stars break, can see a shift in his mind.

So for your sake, are you developing players better now? I would assume so, but I haven't watched too much.

[lastemp3ror]

Yeah, this trade puts this management group in the red for me. Deni is looking like an all-star, while Bub is looking like the 12th man on the roster, and we got absolutely zero value from Brogdon.

People can point to Sarr, but that was the obvious pick at #2 in 24; Tre was the obvious pick at pick 6. Coulibaly isn't living up to the hype, who is now in year 3. Kyshawn George seems to be a good late pick in 25, but like the saying goes, even a broken clock displays the correct time twice a day.

[FAH1223]

The Deni trade was a mistake. No doubt about it. I would love to land a Deni in this draft outside of Peterson & Dybantsa lol. Sarr, Avdija, George +++ would have been a formidable core to build around; and there would be plenty of cap room to address any backcourt concerns. Yet no front office is perfect. You just want them to be right more often than not. They clearly nailed both the Sarr & Kyshawn picks and that still puts us in position to be a force in the league if we hit in the 2026 lottery. So while the Deni trade in retrospect is a set back, nailing a couple picks and being patient with the tank still allows us to be in a very strong position going forward.

This new zombie line that the team wouldn't be in position to have had a high pick in this past draft and this upcoming year with Deni on the roster has officially become group think. This team is 1-7 as currently stands giving up almost 130 PPG with a -16.2 differential says to me very few players, if any, could be put on this team and put it at a serious disadvantage of losing tanking ground.

Sarr is also far from a hit, based on where he was picked. Again, nice start to the season for sure, but he has to do if for more than the first 2 weeks of the season to say that it is clear cut. This also coming after a horrible rookie season by almost all accounts. Same goes for Kyshawn, though I could buy the argument it is already considered a hit based on draft position to some degree. I will note that George had a positive on-ff last year of +4.8, a silver lining to a horrendous year. This year that has flipped and he's -4.2. Small sample size, but the same jumping to conclusion we saw early in this thread last year when it came to Deni's first few weeks with Portland feel like they are resurfacing.

Finally "the all GMs make an oopsie" is the definition of zero accountability being placed on this iteration of the franchise's management. Has a reporter even asked Dawkins about the trade in hindsight? Yeah fumble away a guy you can plug in to the 2-4, who is young, who is now exploding, and we'll just chalk it up to a mulligan. This is why I came up with the Dawkintologist moniker, because all reason goes out the window with some with the guy because he's not someone named Grunfeld or someone who worked with Grunfeld so he's a some godsend. I take the point of view that the bar is just painfully low with this franchise, and it's fan are used to just kind of eating it. I don't care because some NBA podcasters love what Dawkins is doing, those same guys by and large loved this move.

You don't horribly flub a trade like this and it's just an oopsie in my book, no matter the other thing you might like what he's doing.

Instead of being borderline the worst team in NBA history they'd be... a bad team with Deni and in danger of having the pick convey to New York.

And the bar was low. Grunfeld traded Oubre for a 34-year old Ariza. Unseld traded 25 year old Chris Webber for 34 year old Mitch Richmond.

This trade is not that. As the 2029 1st rounder from Portland may still have value.

Bub Carrington looking like the worst player in the NBA doesnt help right now which is why this trade looks so bad. If Bub had come out to start this season like Sarr has, I think there'd be more calm nerves.

But my God, he has been so bad.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

The Deni trade was a mistake. No doubt about it. I would love to land a Deni in this draft outside of Peterson & Dybantsa lol. Sarr, Avdija, George +++ would have been a formidable core to build around; and there would be plenty of cap room to address any backcourt concerns. Yet no front office is perfect. You just want them to be right more often than not. They clearly nailed both the Sarr & Kyshawn picks and that still puts us in position to be a force in the league if we hit in the 2026 lottery. So while the Deni trade in retrospect is a set back, nailing a couple picks and being patient with the tank still allows us to be in a very strong position going forward.

This new zombie line that the team wouldn't be in position to have had a high pick in this past draft and this upcoming year with Deni on the roster has officially become group think. This team is 1-7 as currently stands giving up almost 130 PPG with a -16.2 differential says to me very few players, if any, could be put on this team and put it at a serious disadvantage of losing tanking ground.

Sarr is also far from a hit, based on where he was picked. Again, nice start to the season for sure, but he has to do if for more than the first 2 weeks of the season to say that it is clear cut. This also coming after a horrible rookie season by almost all accounts. Same goes for Kyshawn, though I could buy the argument it is already considered a hit based on draft position to some degree. I will note that George had a positive on-ff last year of +4.8, a silver lining to a horrendous year. This year that has flipped and he's -4.2. Small sample size, but the same jumping to conclusion we saw early in this thread last year when it came to Deni's first few weeks with Portland feel like they are resurfacing.

Finally "the all GMs make an oopsie" is the definition of zero accountability being placed on this iteration of the franchise's management. Has a reporter even asked Dawkins about the trade in hindsight? Yeah fumble away a guy you can plug in to the 2-4, who is young, who is now exploding, and we'll just chalk it up to a mulligan. This is why I came up with the Dawkintologist moniker, because all reason goes out the window with some with the guy because he's not someone named Grunfeld or someone who worked with Grunfeld so he's a some godsend. I take the point of view that the bar is just painfully low with this franchise, and it's fan are used to just kind of eating it. I don't care because some NBA podcasters love what Dawkins is doing, those same guys by and large loved this move.

You don't horribly flub a trade like this and it's just an oopsie in my book, no matter the other thing you might like what he's doing.

Instead of being borderline the worst team in NBA history they'd be... a bad team with Deni and in danger of having the pick convey to New York.

And the bar was low. Grunfeld traded Oubre for a 34-year old Ariza. Unseld traded 25 year old Chris Webber for 34 year old Mitch Richmond.

This trade is not that. As the 2029 1st rounder from Portland may still have value.

Bub Carrington looking like the worst player in the NBA doesnt help right now which is why this trade looks so bad. If Bub had come out to start this season like Sarr has, I think there'd be more calm nerves.

But my God, he has been so bad.

You're just perpetuating the zombie line. This team is like you said as it stands gunning for worst team ever from a differential standpoint. You need multiple players to right that ship, Deni wouldn't be able to contain that tank. Then I'm assured that we'll get into the argument that if Deni is so good, why couldn't he put a dent in the tank. But the answer is simple, you could but Anthony Edwards, Jalen Brunson, SGA on this team and they'd still stink. Lest us not forget that SGA for example had to be on some really bad teams before they were good and had to draft well, sign Hartenstein, and trade for Caruso.

Regarding Bub, I'll just say if "if and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas." The Portland pick is likely going to be in the twenties as it is their second best pick that year. The team got crumbs, literal crumbs

Deni is as it stands this morning is rocking 25.3 ppg, 7 rpg, 4.9 apg and almost a block on with a .624 TS% with an on-off of +22.5... They lost that game against Miami last night because there were at least two occasions as soon as they took Deni out Miami went on 10-0 runs.

And he's only 24, there were dudes in last year's draft that are as old as him.

Why do people keep trying to wan to explain this blunder away? You can't, it's sitting right in front of us every game that's played.

Watch on YouTube

[nate33]

All things considered, I just weight the Deni blunder really heavily compared to other things.

I think this is fair. The Deni blunder was crippling. I do think most of the rest of their moves have been moderately above-average, but it's totally reasonable to say that the big fat negative of the Deni deal is not offset by a bunch of very small positives in other moves. Words can barely even describe how bad the Deni trade was.

Every day I think about how this team could easily have VJ and Deni instead of Tre and Bub. And if we had both of those guys, one of two things would happen. Either we could still manage to tank our way to a bottom 7 finish (sub 30 wins) because the roster is still young and undisciplined (and maybe Keefe limits Deni's minutes a bit down the stretch). Or the roster would be so good on sheer talent alone that they couldn't help but win 30 games despite two of their best players (Sarr and VJ) being 20 years old. And if that was the case, then I'd say the rebuild is already complete.

[The Consiglieri]

What’s sad is that most of us saw this coming. A Deni/Kyshawn/Sarr front court could have been special.

No it wouldn't. For whatever reason people are going to perpetually turn what was an underpay (and almost all of us said it at the time), into the worst trade in the history of life, ignoring, as always, what the trade was about.
It wasn't for Bub.
1. It was for 2 first round picks.
2.Other goodies.

And just as important as #1, #3: To ensure we didn't win 28-40 games, and became what Portland seems likely to become, a 34-38 win, nothing burger going forward.

They wanted to acquire some draft capital, and to hit absolutely rock bottom for the '25 and '26 classes, both of which looked good based upon scouting reports.

You guys can fantasize and dream all you want about the alternate world where we kept Deni, but after 45 years of watching this perpetual train wreck, the end result of that direction should have been obvious: a sub .500 perpetual non-contender that would need monstrously good luck, in a mega stud class to escape the hamster wheel of mediocrity, something that has literally never happened for the Wizards ever, even as it constantly happens for franchises like the Spurs.

That's the Deni route.

None of this justifies the selling low stupidity that was the Deni trade. Some tried to argue at the time that a late lottery pick in a horrific draft class ('24), and another random future first, and some players we might be able to Boyd trade, and a couple of 2nds wasn't the 3 nickels, a dime and a quarter for a dollar that it clearly was. I'm not defending the assets acquired. As I had said months earlier, I thought they would trade Deni (something most of you found ridiculous to imagine when I said it), I just assumed they would acquire a top 5-10 pick in a good class, and a speculative first in a future year plus more. What I didn't want was a teens pick in a ---- class that was at best, 9 times out of 10, gonna deliver nothing better than a 6th man, or some replacement level starter at best. That, was totally asinine.

So yeah, I'm not a fan, it was obviously a lost trade, but the reasoning behind it, the process, was sound, the execution was ----, at least to me anyway.

People are fixating on losing Deni, but that was always likely, the problem is that they should have demanded more, or held out on trading him until winter deadline '25 or summer '25. We sucked far too much to avoid a decent lottery slot in '25 with Deni, and we absolutely would have gained more by holding. I'm pretty shocked at what they settled for, however it's worth mentioning that on the Zach Lowe show the other day, he and guest were shaking their head at how little they got for Deni and yet Lowe or the other guy mentioned NBA GM's they queried on the topic, thought it was tilted heavily towards us, which suggests that Deni was still severely undervalued league wide summer '24. So perhaps we were just living in a world where we were never getting fair value for Deni, or at least fair value in '24.

I'm sorry, you're just not a wartime consigliere.

Your bottoming out argument is just fundamentally flawed, we could still have done that. Even that said, how the draft odds are, you don't need to completely bottom out given how much they've flattened the odds. Nate has belabored this point, others have as well. It's just an oversimplification of things. Just because the franchise has been in mediocrity (in it's best years) for the last 50 years has absolutely nothing to do with how the franchise should have evaluated Deni. Again just an oversimplification of things. You also say but "the reasoning behind it, the process, was sound, the execution was ----", I disagree with this train of thought. Executing is the whole damn point despite hopes and wishes, that is at the crux of this whole debate. Who gives a **** what Dawkins thought if he completely whiffed on execution?

Finally I'm tired of people acting like a Deni type player just grow on trees, that he's a player that would have been assured us mediocrity. Another zombie line that Deni just isn't a piece you truly want to rebuild around. This is always a tacit attitude for some reason, something about Deni, you couldn't possibly see him as a franchise cornerstone because who the hell knows?

Regard to the Lowe's of the world, I'm sure plenty of guys in the NBA insider realms are trying to cover their asses on their initial assessments of the trade. Again as I said to nate, seems like the talking heads by-and-large thought it was a great trade, herding together like bad political pollsters, because they are afraid of getting it wrong, but still get it wrong.

You're mistaken my process/execution point, for supporting the trade. Go back through the thread to when the trade was made, and you will find the people who felt we got fair value (something that was more than agreed with, league wide, based on reporting), I was not, and am not one of them. I hated the trade because while I liked two picks, I thought getting a mid first in an absolute horse ---- class was largely worthless, and when you add that the second first would be four years later, it was equally ----. I liked the body to flip (which we didn't), and the 2nd's well enough, but I felt the team absolutely needed to get a pick highly likely to be a top 10 pick in the loaded '25 class, and if they couldn't that summer, then hold, and make the trade later when they could.

I did agree that the trade needed to be made for tanking purposes and I still believe that. We needed franchise transforming super talents. Even at the apex he's hit, and he appears to have hit the highest of projectable ceilings from January '24-November of '25, he's not the sort of player that can transform a team the way a Wemby, a LeBron, an Ant, Flagg, Harper, next year's Peterson, and Dybantsa (maybe Boozer, Ament, and Brown)....he's a guy that could be the 2nd or 3rd best player on a good team, but he's not the piece that gets it done.

You can keep arguing that we would have been fine if we had kept him, but the evidence available just says you're wrong. Portland won 45% of their games last year, this year they are so far, above .500 in a ridiculously difficult conference. Deni hitting his ceiling in a crap conference like the East? What does that do, after we get hosed by the '25 lottery as we always have in great classes?

You can feel whatever you feel about Deni, but I'm sure you've watched enough NBA to know that yes, he's damn good, and that was the freaking problem. The value of his mega cheap extension would be completely wasted for at least 3 out of 4 seasons, and he would also, more than likely, pull us out of the superstar blue chip zone of the '25 and '26 classes.

I am more than willing to cosign that the trade itself was a 60 cents to 75 cents on the dollar trade based on what we knew, and clearly league people didn't realize (that he'd leveled up in '23-'24 and was likely to at worst, get somewhat better than an already good player at that point, cost controlled for four more years on a mega cheap, highly valuable contract). That, for the record, even more than Deni's talent, was why I was so irate. Lowe and the other dude can say, and apparently know, that the league clearly undervalued Deni's talent at the time, but how in ---- did the league fail to understand just how immensely valuable that cheap as hell extension would be going forward, especially with 2 of the next 4 draft classes being ---- ('24 and '27)? The dude is literally playing on basically a "Business is closing, all items 65-75% off caliber contract," and yet the value of that is a mid first in a generationally bad draft class, and a speculative random first 4 years later and a couple of rubber bands and paper clips? That's what pisses me off. Yeah, it sucks that Bub is bottoming out, and Deni has found another 2 levels since he leveled up in winter '23-'24, but not on our roster, but trading him did make sense, just trading him for such a ---- return absolutely did not make sense, and personally, I think they should have waited to the winter deadline in '25 to move him if that was all that they could get, I wasn't surprised he was dealt (the only one on the board not surprised, seemingly), but yeah, I'm totally with you that they got taken to the cleaners in compensation.

I'll call it a wash if we land a top pick in '26 or close to it, because part of the comp was clearly bottoming out for the loaded two classes of '25 and '26, but having absolutely gotten ----ed by NBA's lottery rigging for the winners system (they call it flattening, I call it rigging) in '25, so far, that part of the play doesn't look great either.

However, I also think caterwauling over it for 2 years is a bit much. There isn't a soul on this board that doesn't understand that we got curb stomped in this deal, or if there is, there's no point wasting breath on them, everyone knows it, the only disagreement is whether it made sense to continue forward with him as a key building block. For me, it absolutely did not, but again, if that crappy trade from June '24 was all we could have gotten at the time, then he absolutely should have been a "hold" until later. But man, the pages and pages of rage posting 18 months later to a crowd just nodding in the thread seems a bit pointless right?

I'm doing that about Daniels over Drake Maye in the Commanders boards, so I understand, its gonna take me a while too to get over that catastrophic error, but franchise QB's are infinitely more rare than Deni Advija's, so there is that.

[payitforward]

... caterwauling over it for 2 years is a bit much.....