jakobe & Dick were bad picks

[Brinbe]

Hindsight or whatver is sort of a boring discussion since the roster and circumstances were a bit different when they were drafted. I'm a bit more interested in discussing the current situation. Imo, I think they gotta actually make real decisions on what sort of players they realistically envision them being and if they're really worth developing as some part longterm plan or not and if what they could possibly offer isn't something you could find with other picks, FA or already on the roster (Battle)

Are they really grooming Walter to be the future 2 guard over RJ? Does that make any sense at this point? If Gradey is there to primarily be a corner spacing shooter, can't Battle do that same thing at a cheaper price without being a complete push over on the defensive end? Do they see Gradey as BI's eventual successor? Will his defense always just hold him back?

Trying to pull the 'develop young guy' and 'win now' dual paths is always hard and even much better franchises fail at it. So on a whole I'd rather be proactive while they may retain some value being former first round picks instead of being married to prospects.

[James_Raptors]

-They weren't bad picks.
-They're young.
-Have patience.

[Johnny Bball]

Worst ever first-rounders

1. Bargnani 2006
2. Araujo 2004
3. Radojevic 1999
4. Caboclo 2014
5. Jefferies 2002
6. Bradley 2001
7. Flynn 2020
8. Graham 2005
9. Wright 2015
10. Dick 2023/Walter 2024

As of today they sneak into the bottom ten for me- but just cuz someone’s gotta be there. Otherwise they don't belong w any of those names. Especially not the top (bottom?) six. They'll both be in the league for a long time imho

Araujo is definitely number 1. That was the reach of the century.

28 FRP. 18 selected better than 19th spot.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Hindsight or whatver is sort of a boring discussion since the roster and circumstances were a bit different when they were drafted. I'm a bit more interested in discussing the current situation. Imo, I think they gotta actually make real decisions on what sort of players they realistically envision them being and if they're really worth developing as some part longterm plan or not and if what they could possibly offer isn't something you could find with other picks, FA or already on the roster (Battle)

Are they really grooming Walter to be the future 2 guard over RJ? Does that make any sense at this point? If Gradey is there to primarily be a corner spacing shooter, can't Battle do that same thing at a cheaper price without being a complete push over on the defensive end? Do they see Gradey as BI's eventual successor? Will his defense always just hold him back?

Trying to pull the 'develop young guy' and 'win now' dual paths is always hard and even much better franchises fail at it. So on a whole I'd rather be proactive while they may retain some value being former first round picks instead of being married to prospects.

imo player development is just letting them improve in the summer and seeing which tools are useful in an NBA game, it's not as easy to mold players into replacements. There's never a like for like.

People here have Battle brain, but it's the same logic that made Jeff Dowtin fan faves over Fred VanVleet. When there's frustration with a higher profile player a smaller sample, cheaper specialist will appear as a solution. If Battle is really ****ing good the Raptors will prefer him, which is what happened when Fred VanVleet outplayed Delon Wright. These guys haven't given up on anyone young and paid the price. There have been moments with Ochae Brissett and Delano Banton, but those guys were bad for us.

[HiJiNX]

I never liked the Gradey pick. Watching him in college I thought, “this guy doesn’t even look as good as his stats indicate at this level, it’ll never translate to the NBA.” I just didn’t think he had NBA athleticism or competitiveness. I have a better opinion of him now because he’s a hustler, but his athleticism is still an issue. And I’ve always hated his shooting form. Don’t like where his guide hand is. Don’t like how far he slings it back. Don’t like how much of it is an arms shot. Just too much variance in a form like that. He’s also too rattleable. And his misses look bad.

A sign of a good shooter is what do their misses and makes look like. Do their misses rattle around or do they miss long/short? And do their makes swish or hit back rim only? Or do they rattle in? Tells you a lot about a shooter.

As for Walter, I liked him in college but didn’t see a useful NBA player there. More of a hustle guy. Plays super hard. But couldn’t create his own shot. That said, he looked great as a rookie. But his confidence has disappeared. Not sure what’s happening with him.

[everdiso]

Most dissappointing thing with Ja'kobe is that he has none of the swag he had as a rookie. I didn't think he was very good as a rookie but that swag gave me a bit of belief that he could grow and improve. But now that's hesitating out there he looks even worse and not at all like an NBA player.

[everdiso]

Hindsight or whatver is sort of a boring discussion since the roster and circumstances were a bit different when they were drafted. I'm a bit more interested in discussing the current situation. Imo, I think they gotta actually make real decisions on what sort of players they realistically envision them being and if they're really worth developing as some part longterm plan or not and if what they could possibly offer isn't something you could find with other picks, FA or already on the roster (Battle)

Are they really grooming Walter to be the future 2 guard over RJ? Does that make any sense at this point? If Gradey is there to primarily be a corner spacing shooter, can't Battle do that same thing at a cheaper price without being a complete push over on the defensive end? Do they see Gradey as BI's eventual successor? Will his defense always just hold him back?

Trying to pull the 'develop young guy' and 'win now' dual paths is always hard and even much better franchises fail at it. So on a whole I'd rather be proactive while they may retain some value being former first round picks instead of being married to prospects.

imo player development is just letting them improve in the summer and seeing which tools are useful in an NBA game, it's not as easy to mold players into replacements. There's never a like for like.

People here have Battle brain, but it's the same logic that made Jeff Dowtin fan faves over Fred VanVleet. When there's frustration with a higher profile player a smaller sample, cheaper specialist will appear as a solution. If Battle is really ****ing good the Raptors will prefer him, which is what happened when Fred VanVleet outplayed Delon Wright. These guys haven't given up on anyone young and paid the price. There have been moments with Ochae Brissett and Delano Banton, but those guys were bad for us.

I don't know that it's all that complicated with Battle - he's clearly a gunslinger, shooting well over 40% on over 9 attempts per 36 to start his career. It's a weapon that would seem to make him useful at the bottom of a rotation no matter the other holes in his game. And then when you watch him play, you see he at least has some size and hustle on the defensive end to maybe let him be just bad defensively instead of terrible.

Especially when he's competing with guys like Agbaji (on his 3rd team already) and Walter (only a #19 pick) and you'd think those two would have to earn their minutes too, not be treated with kiddie gloves.

[C_Money]

Walter’s ceiling was always going to be an Aaron Nesmith type. He’s too slow and not a natural shooter to be anything better than that. Which is why he got drafted 19th.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Hindsight or whatver is sort of a boring discussion since the roster and circumstances were a bit different when they were drafted. I'm a bit more interested in discussing the current situation. Imo, I think they gotta actually make real decisions on what sort of players they realistically envision them being and if they're really worth developing as some part longterm plan or not and if what they could possibly offer isn't something you could find with other picks, FA or already on the roster (Battle)

Are they really grooming Walter to be the future 2 guard over RJ? Does that make any sense at this point? If Gradey is there to primarily be a corner spacing shooter, can't Battle do that same thing at a cheaper price without being a complete push over on the defensive end? Do they see Gradey as BI's eventual successor? Will his defense always just hold him back?

Trying to pull the 'develop young guy' and 'win now' dual paths is always hard and even much better franchises fail at it. So on a whole I'd rather be proactive while they may retain some value being former first round picks instead of being married to prospects.

imo player development is just letting them improve in the summer and seeing which tools are useful in an NBA game, it's not as easy to mold players into replacements. There's never a like for like.

People here have Battle brain, but it's the same logic that made Jeff Dowtin fan faves over Fred VanVleet. When there's frustration with a higher profile player a smaller sample, cheaper specialist will appear as a solution. If Battle is really ****ing good the Raptors will prefer him, which is what happened when Fred VanVleet outplayed Delon Wright. These guys haven't given up on anyone young and paid the price. There have been moments with Ochae Brissett and Delano Banton, but those guys were bad for us.

I don't know that it's all that complicated with Battle - he's clearly a gunslinger, shooting well over 40% on over 9 attempts per 36 to start his career. It's a weapon that would seem to make him useful at the bottom of a rotation no matter the other holes in his game. And then when you watch him play, you see he at least has some size and hustle on the defensive end to maybe let him be just bad defensively instead of terrible.

Especially when he's competing with guys like Agbaji (on his 3rd team already) and Walter (only a #19 pick) and you'd think those two would have to earn their minutes too, not be treated with kiddie gloves.

He's not competing with Agbaji or Walter, though. Those guys are tasked with guarding the superstars and stars of the league. That's where their minutes are coming from. That's because we don't have great options to guard guards in our core.

[Brinbe]

Hindsight or whatver is sort of a boring discussion since the roster and circumstances were a bit different when they were drafted. I'm a bit more interested in discussing the current situation. Imo, I think they gotta actually make real decisions on what sort of players they realistically envision them being and if they're really worth developing as some part longterm plan or not and if what they could possibly offer isn't something you could find with other picks, FA or already on the roster (Battle)

Are they really grooming Walter to be the future 2 guard over RJ? Does that make any sense at this point? If Gradey is there to primarily be a corner spacing shooter, can't Battle do that same thing at a cheaper price without being a complete push over on the defensive end? Do they see Gradey as BI's eventual successor? Will his defense always just hold him back?

Trying to pull the 'develop young guy' and 'win now' dual paths is always hard and even much better franchises fail at it. So on a whole I'd rather be proactive while they may retain some value being former first round picks instead of being married to prospects.

imo player development is just letting them improve in the summer and seeing which tools are useful in an NBA game, it's not as easy to mold players into replacements. There's never a like for like.

People here have Battle brain, but it's the same logic that made Jeff Dowtin fan faves over Fred VanVleet. When there's frustration with a higher profile player a smaller sample, cheaper specialist will appear as a solution. If Battle is really ****ing good the Raptors will prefer him, which is what happened when Fred VanVleet outplayed Delon Wright. These guys haven't given up on anyone young and paid the price. There have been moments with Ochae Brissett and Delano Banton, but those guys were bad for us.

it's not a like for like and never said it was. it's what their comparative output can be given their salary and current/future role and what their relative value may be as assets in a trade. you're simplfying things and making arguments never made/putting words in people's mouths in bad faith. not cool

because no one ever compared dowtin and fred. that's just dumb. it was dowtin and malachi since backup guard depth was the significant issue that was never addressed. just like no one is saying they want to replace yak. they want someone to backup yak and give us a real option since he's been in and out of the lineup. and we currently have a bunch of guys in battle/gradey/walter/ochai who pretty much have the same role and gradey/walter/ochai would probably have more trade value and I'm saying we have to consider if they have really offer that much more upside as shooters/overall players over a battle or some hypothetical future draft pick/fa signing/trade? I hardly think they're irreplaceable sort of players even when fully developed.

[everdiso]

imo player development is just letting them improve in the summer and seeing which tools are useful in an NBA game, it's not as easy to mold players into replacements. There's never a like for like.

People here have Battle brain, but it's the same logic that made Jeff Dowtin fan faves over Fred VanVleet. When there's frustration with a higher profile player a smaller sample, cheaper specialist will appear as a solution. If Battle is really ****ing good the Raptors will prefer him, which is what happened when Fred VanVleet outplayed Delon Wright. These guys haven't given up on anyone young and paid the price. There have been moments with Ochae Brissett and Delano Banton, but those guys were bad for us.

I don't know that it's all that complicated with Battle - he's clearly a gunslinger, shooting well over 40% on over 9 attempts per 36 to start his career. It's a weapon that would seem to make him useful at the bottom of a rotation no matter the other holes in his game. And then when you watch him play, you see he at least has some size and hustle on the defensive end to maybe let him be just bad defensively instead of terrible.

Especially when he's competing with guys like Agbaji (on his 3rd team already) and Walter (only a #19 pick) and you'd think those two would have to earn their minutes too, not be treated with kiddie gloves.

He's not competing with Agbaji or Walter, though. Those guys are tasked with guarding the superstars and stars of the league. That's where their minutes are coming from. That's because we don't have great options to guard guards in our core.

So maybe don't try to guard them - try to outshoot them instead.

[LoveMyRaps]

Gradey was off his meds last night.

[LoveMyRaps]

Walter’s ceiling was always going to be an Aaron Nesmith type. He’s too slow and not a natural shooter to be anything better than that. Which is why he got drafted 19th.

Also too weak of a player.

19th pick in one of the worst draft classes of all time.

He'd be a second round pick in most drafts and likely out of the league after a few seasons.

[Duffman100]

In my opinion, both are trying to do too much when they get the ball and not enough off the ball.

[anotherhomer]

In my opinion, both are trying to do too much when they get the ball and not enough off the ball.

dick is suppose to be a off-ball shooter and struggling

same with Jakobe...both are struggling

initially, it was suppose to be a battle between Ochai, Gradey and Jakobe, to see who's odd person out but i would say none of them really belong

[dballislife]

hey they turned out to be bad picks, but imo they were not bad picks when picked, theres a difference

[YogurtProducer]

they were fine picks for sure - but they’re certainly no home run (but not a strikeout either).

You’re not gonna hit on a future star every time

Define home runs? Who were they supposed to pick at those spots that were home runs? Whoever listed all those 2nd round picks had 3 guys on it that were playing 20+ mpg and none of them were stars. Home runs generally aren't available in those spots and the Kobe Bufkin love of this board is quietly swept under the rug.

These guys are both in the rotation (at the end of but still in the rotation) of a team that looks like it's going to win more than it loses despite not having any 1st team all NBA level players on it and neither of them is 22 yet. That's about as good as it gets when it comes to these kinds of picks. They're both producing at similar levels to guys like Norman Powell and Delon Wright in their early careers, and both of those guys were significantly older when they were drafted and went on to long, productive NBA careers.

Like you said, it’s early and the home runs probably haven’t surfaced yet.

I just don’t think Dick or JKW are the home run picks either

[YogurtProducer]

Hindsight or whatver is sort of a boring discussion since the roster and circumstances were a bit different when they were drafted. I'm a bit more interested in discussing the current situation. Imo, I think they gotta actually make real decisions on what sort of players they realistically envision them being and if they're really worth developing as some part longterm plan or not and if what they could possibly offer isn't something you could find with other picks, FA or already on the roster (Battle)

Are they really grooming Walter to be the future 2 guard over RJ? Does that make any sense at this point? If Gradey is there to primarily be a corner spacing shooter, can't Battle do that same thing at a cheaper price without being a complete push over on the defensive end? Do they see Gradey as BI's eventual successor? Will his defense always just hold him back?

Trying to pull the 'develop young guy' and 'win now' dual paths is always hard and even much better franchises fail at it. So on a whole I'd rather be proactive while they may retain some value being former first round picks instead of being married to prospects.

imo player development is just letting them improve in the summer and seeing which tools are useful in an NBA game, it's not as easy to mold players into replacements. There's never a like for like.

People here have Battle brain, but it's the same logic that made Jeff Dowtin fan faves over Fred VanVleet. When there's frustration with a higher profile player a smaller sample, cheaper specialist will appear as a solution. If Battle is really ****ing good the Raptors will prefer him, which is what happened when Fred VanVleet outplayed Delon Wright. These guys haven't given up on anyone young and paid the price. There have been moments with Ochae Brissett and Delano Banton, but those guys were bad for us.

I don't know that it's all that complicated with Battle - he's clearly a gunslinger, shooting well over 40% on over 9 attempts per 36 to start his career. It's a weapon that would seem to make him useful at the bottom of a rotation no matter the other holes in his game. And then when you watch him play, you see he at least has some size and hustle on the defensive end to maybe let him be just bad defensively instead of terrible.

Especially when he's competing with guys like Agbaji (on his 3rd team already) and Walter (only a #19 pick) and you'd think those two would have to earn their minutes too, not be treated with kiddie gloves.

You gotta stop saying Ochai is on his 3rd team like the first one meant anything

[LoveMyRaps]

On the bright side, Jamal Shead was a really really good pick

[everdiso]

imo player development is just letting them improve in the summer and seeing which tools are useful in an NBA game, it's not as easy to mold players into replacements. There's never a like for like.

People here have Battle brain, but it's the same logic that made Jeff Dowtin fan faves over Fred VanVleet. When there's frustration with a higher profile player a smaller sample, cheaper specialist will appear as a solution. If Battle is really ****ing good the Raptors will prefer him, which is what happened when Fred VanVleet outplayed Delon Wright. These guys haven't given up on anyone young and paid the price. There have been moments with Ochae Brissett and Delano Banton, but those guys were bad for us.

I don't know that it's all that complicated with Battle - he's clearly a gunslinger, shooting well over 40% on over 9 attempts per 36 to start his career. It's a weapon that would seem to make him useful at the bottom of a rotation no matter the other holes in his game. And then when you watch him play, you see he at least has some size and hustle on the defensive end to maybe let him be just bad defensively instead of terrible.

Especially when he's competing with guys like Agbaji (on his 3rd team already) and Walter (only a #19 pick) and you'd think those two would have to earn their minutes too, not be treated with kiddie gloves.

You gotta stop saying Ochai is on his 3rd team like the first one meant anything

i could but i don't wanna