Is being a shameless foul baiter a requirement at this point?

[AFM]

Blame the refs. No way the fans can see it but the refs can't. I think they should just allow more contact in general, especially blocks vs charges, just swallow the whistle. Better for the game...

[NyKnicks1714]

I will never understand why the NBA so desperately wants flopping to be a major part of the game

It's easy to say "don't reward flopping", but officials being able to accurately determine if an action is a full-on flop or selling the contact or a legitimate movement in real time is another story. If they started emphasizing it that would inevitably lead to inconsistencies (we've seen a bit of that with flopping technicals) which people would rightfully gripe about. You could start reviewing more plays but people would complain about that too.

[LeBronSpaghetti]

I will never understand why the NBA so desperately wants flopping to be a major part of the game

It's easy to say "don't reward flopping", but officials being able to accurately determine if an action is a full-on flop or selling the contact or a legitimate movement in real time is another story. If they started emphasizing it that would inevitably lead to inconsistencies (we've seen a bit of that with flopping technicals) which people would rightfully gripe about. You could start reviewing more plays but people would complain about that too.

If I can do it on TV in real time they have no excuse

[Mephariel]

Somebody made a comment like this in the Bulls forum and it really stuck out to me. Josh Giddey has been a monster so far. He's really become a complete player offensively. He can do just about anything on offense. However, the one thing he doesn't have in his bag is the shameless foul baiting. He drives pretty often and averages 6.0 FTA so far. Not bad, but nothing crazy. He doesn't flail around and hunt for free throws. That would be the last piece to "complete" his offensive repertoire. It really helps when a star isn't playing at their best in a given game. Just hunt for FTs. Easy, efficient buckets.

Is shameless baiting FTs a must at this point if you want a complete game? We've seen how incredibly valuable it is for SGA and the thunder. It's also getting extremely tiresome and is terrible to watch.

I feel like you'd be a fool NOT to do this now a days. Is it a must to have a truly complete game? And at what point will the NBA put an end to it? If more guys start doing it I think they'll HAVE to put an end to it. They're going to have to eventually.

What do you mean by this exactly. Let say Giddey decides to foul bait tomorrow. What would he be doing differently?

Head snap back, arms flailing, falling over legs swirling like a propeller. Complete with primal scream. Get back up. FTs. Repeat. Don't forget to hook the defender's arm to make like he's hindering you and complain to refs about it.

SGA doesn't really do any of that and people say he is a foul baiter. Maybe hooking the defender's arms.

[Mephariel]

I will never understand why the NBA so desperately wants flopping to be a major part of the game

It's easy to say "don't reward flopping", but officials being able to accurately determine if an action is a full-on flop or selling the contact or a legitimate movement in real time is another story. If they started emphasizing it that would inevitably lead to inconsistencies (we've seen a bit of that with flopping technicals) which people would rightfully gripe about. You could start reviewing more plays but people would complain about that too.

If I can do it on TV in real time they have no excuse

But you can't. Stop it. You think you can because you have a bias. "OMG, of course that is a flop!"

Anthony Edwards is sitting courtside and admit he got the call wrong and apologize for screaming at the refs.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_SE9lD-c75o

[G R E Y]

What do you mean by this exactly. Let say Giddey decides to foul bait tomorrow. What would he be doing differently?

Head snap back, arms flailing, falling over legs swirling like a propeller. Complete with primal scream. Get back up. FTs. Repeat. Don't forget to hook the defender's arm to make like he's hindering you and complain to refs about it.

SGA doesn't really do any of that and people say he is a foul baiter. Maybe hooking the defender's arms.

Watch on YouTube

;pp=0gcJCR4Bo7VqN5tD

Watch on YouTube

[cupcakesnake]

Somebody made a comment like this in the Bulls forum and it really stuck out to me. Josh Giddey has been a monster so far. He's really become a complete player offensively. He can do just about anything on offense. However, the one thing he doesn't have in his bag is the shameless foul baiting. He drives pretty often and averages 6.0 FTA so far. Not bad, but nothing crazy. He doesn't flail around and hunt for free throws. That would be the last piece to "complete" his offensive repertoire. It really helps when a star isn't playing at their best in a given game. Just hunt for FTs. Easy, efficient buckets.

Is shameless baiting FTs a must at this point if you want a complete game? We've seen how incredibly valuable it is for SGA and the thunder. It's also getting extremely tiresome and is terrible to watch.

I feel like you'd be a fool NOT to do this now a days. Is it a must to have a truly complete game? And at what point will the NBA put an end to it? If more guys start doing it I think they'll HAVE to put an end to it. They're going to have to eventually.

What do you mean by this exactly. Let say Giddey decides to foul bait tomorrow. What would he be doing differently?

Head snap back, arms flailing, falling over legs swirling like a propeller. Complete with primal scream. Get back up. FTs. Repeat. Don't forget to hook the defender's arm to make like he's hindering you and complain to refs about it.

These are the foul baiting moves, yes, but they don't get you far when you aren't creating advantages against your defender or putting the defender in difficult situations. No one gets a foul call by standing there and snapping their head back. If you can get your defender off-balance, force them into recovery where they're committing a borderline blocking foul, and then snap your head back, now you're starting to get calls.

People can't just decide to become "foul merchants". Every player that gets a ton of calls has a reason they can put some icing on their cake. Shai is probably the shiftiest, lowest to the ground player of all-time, and put his defender in all kinds of awkward positions while they live in constant fear of his near automatic pull up in the midrange. Prime Harden was able to get downhill at will, and was so strong with the ball doing it. Healthy Embiid's defenders can't guard his pull up and his first step at the same time (though Embiid is the guy I found the most infuriating with how many possessions he used to fall and embellish contact.)

Giddey doesn't get by guys with a first step, and has no real athletic advantages to exploit. Jokic is kind of similar. If you can't generate separation and cause the defense to overcompensate, it's hard to generate a crazy amount of fouls.

[zeebneeb]

This is an extremely easy thing to fix, if the NBA wanted to do so.

Rewatch every game, with a dedicated staff, that finds flops, and fake fouls caused by hamming it up. 100,000$ fine for each infraction.

Head snap that leads to a call? 100k

Hooking another player on purpose to get a call? 100k

It'll clean itself up in just a few games.

[G R E Y]

What do you mean by this exactly. Let say Giddey decides to foul bait tomorrow. What would he be doing differently?

Head snap back, arms flailing, falling over legs swirling like a propeller. Complete with primal scream. Get back up. FTs. Repeat. Don't forget to hook the defender's arm to make like he's hindering you and complain to refs about it.

These are the foul baiting moves, yes, but they don't get you far when you aren't creating advantages against your defender or putting the defender in difficult situations. No one gets a foul call by standing there and snapping their head back. If you can get your defender off-balance, force them into recovery where they're committing a borderline blocking foul, and then snap your head back, now you're starting to get calls.

People can't just decide to become "foul merchants". Every player that gets a ton of calls has a reason they can put some icing on their cake. Shai is probably the shiftiest, lowest to the ground player of all-time, and put his defender in all kinds of awkward positions while they live in constant fear of his near automatic pull up in the midrange. Prime Harden was able to get downhill at will, and was so strong with the ball doing it. Healthy Embiid's defenders can't guard his pull up and his first step at the same time (though Embiid is the guy I found the most infuriating with how many possessions he used to fall and embellish contact.)

Giddey doesn't get by guys with a first step, and has no real athletic advantages to exploit. Jokic is kind of similar. If you can't generate separation and cause the defense to overcompensate, it's hard to generate a crazy amount of fouls.

But standing there and snapping a head back isn't the reference point, right? Like that's never the context. And it isn't even putting a defender off balance. Plenty of clips from a subsequent video I posted show SGA bested by a defender in terms of keeping up with SGA with quick feet, body upright, not reaching in not allowing a driving lane, or staying at his hip, and then SGA resorts to **** egregious foul baiting. He does put defenders out of position, that's true, but foul baiting isn't some free pass reward for doing it. Whether he bests a defender or not, foul baiting is gross. I wish it weren't rewarded by league officials.

[G R E Y]

This is an extremely easy thing to fix, if the NBA wanted to do so.

Rewatch every game, with a dedicated staff, that finds flops, and fake fouls caused by hamming it up. 100,000$ fine for each infraction.

Head snap that leads to a call? 100k

Hooking another player on purpose to get a call? 100k

It'll clean itself up in just a few games.

At least a percentage of earnings, that way each player feels it in a more fair proportionate way.

[CobraCommander]

what is shameless foul baiting...?

its pro basketball. luka, SGA, Harden, Giannis, lebron, etc all do it...what do they have in common...all MVP caliber players. If giddy isn't doing it, he is a freaking idiot. Kawhi doesn't do it...maybe the only guy that doesn't that is MVP caliber....using all elements available skills within the legal limits of the game should be required of all players....there is no moral code...that makes foul baiting bad.

the antidote to foul baiting is...NOT fouling. baiting guys to foul is smart and effective.

Luka says..."imma get a good shot off and the only way to stop me is fouling me" and people complaining about luka????

lol thats the genius of Luka and SGA and Harden and MJ before them. foul baiting is part of the game...

Those players you listed aren't always looking for "good shots" they're looking to generate contact to garner free throws, the actual shot quality is poor in terms of making the basket. Luka leans in and flails, Harden used to outright throw himself into defenders, Embiid collapses to the floor, SGA flails his arms begging for calls, etc. These aren't fundamentally sound shot attempts - they're attempts to manipulate the refs.

It's sadly a portion of the game but it's downstream of being a performative player + ref favor. Jordan Poole flopping vs SGA flopping isn't going to yield the same results with the refs.

if the problem is foul baiting then the only answer is calling less fouls and allowing more contact...which will lower points overall, the top players will avg less points and thus appear less prolific compared to the historic greats and the NBA (like all businesses) need their consumers to feel like the current product is NEW AND IMPROVED AND BETTER THAN EVER...

the NBA will never go back to the leading scorer avg 26 ppg like AI did in 98/99...

[CobraCommander]

with all the betting going on...foul baiting and calls by refs are honestly SUSPECT AS HELL...we can pretend like some of these calls are not fishy...but in light of the FBI naming names...im questioning everything in the nba...

[Lunartic]

what is shameless foul baiting...?

its pro basketball. luka, SGA, Harden, Giannis, lebron, etc all do it...what do they have in common...all MVP caliber players. If giddy isn't doing it, he is a freaking idiot. Kawhi doesn't do it...maybe the only guy that doesn't that is MVP caliber....using all elements available skills within the legal limits of the game should be required of all players....there is no moral code...that makes foul baiting bad.

the antidote to foul baiting is...NOT fouling. baiting guys to foul is smart and effective.

Luka says..."imma get a good shot off and the only way to stop me is fouling me" and people complaining about luka????

lol thats the genius of Luka and SGA and Harden and MJ before them. foul baiting is part of the game...

Those players you listed aren't always looking for "good shots" they're looking to generate contact to garner free throws, the actual shot quality is poor in terms of making the basket. Luka leans in and flails, Harden used to outright throw himself into defenders, Embiid collapses to the floor, SGA flails his arms begging for calls, etc. These aren't fundamentally sound shot attempts - they're attempts to manipulate the refs.

It's sadly a portion of the game but it's downstream of being a performative player + ref favor. Jordan Poole flopping vs SGA flopping isn't going to yield the same results with the refs.

if the problem is foul baiting then the only answer is calling less fouls and allowing more contact...which will lower points overall, the top players will avg less points and thus appear less prolific compared to the historic greats and the NBA (like all businesses) need their consumers to feel like the current product is NEW AND IMPROVED AND BETTER THAN EVER...

the NBA will never go back to the leading scorer avg 26 ppg like AI did in 98/99...

Yeah, I'm definitely down for the league to allow more contact as long as it's fair. Little guards can't initiate contact and then flop when they get some back

[Lalouie]

if there is no rule then refs have no reference. that filipino high schooler roughed up sabrina more than the nba is allowed to do.

get rid of the rule(or don't make any) and make men play like men, and women play like men

[tsherkin]

Necessary? No.

First of all, he has a .356 FTr at the moment, which isn't bad at all. That is a 123 FTr+, for what it's worth.

What he needs is a short game and better finishing at the basket.

[MrBigShot]

Luka is the biggest foul baiter, he also complains the most. He complains to the officials when a defender's pinky finger touches his skin.

SGA and Brunson are on their own level when it comes to foul baiting. Luka isn't even close to them

And yes, being a shameless foul baiter is heavily rewarded.

[Maxthirty]

Manipulating the refs is part of the game. MJ tricked the refs into winning a championship.

[DoItALL9]

The league endorsed foul baiting directly/indirectly thru SGA last season.
He's the biggest foul baiter to be MVP and win a Finals.
It's unfortunate.

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[BadWolf]

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/NXBB7NrFyu

[sunstrooper]

As long as the league runs the "star system" as its business model, foul baiting will be the way to go, sadly. If there was no different officiating for players, designated by the league (and media most of all) as "stars", there wouldn't be a reason for foul baiting to exist. And we go to the next point - the league will never abandon the "star system" as long as American fans firmly continue to believe that basketball is an individual sport where only individual players and their individual stats matter, and certain players actually "deserve" to be officiated differently, and this will never change. American culture is built on "superheroes culture" and NBA just took the superhero framework and inserted it 1:1 into the league. And then the only way to make certain players look like superheroes is through officiating and constant push through media narrative. I am not in any way saying this as a bad thing (although I have zero desire to watch this type of basketball) and in no way am i trying to criticize American fans, who are the target audience. It's a cultural thing and it is what it is.
So, I guess the answer to the OP's question is "yes", but only for the "stars".