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jakobe & Dick were bad picks

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Re: jakobe & Dick were bad picks 

Post#121 » by ForeverTFC » Tue Nov 11, 2025 8:22 pm

dTox wrote:
ForeverTFC wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:
There sure are a lot of outliers in recent years. You can do the past 14 drafts and the majority of the best players came in the late lottery or later.

2010 - Paul George (10)
2011 - Kawhi (15)
2012 - AD (1)
2013 - Giannis (13)
2014 - Jokic (41)
2015 - Towns (1)
2016 - Sabonis (27)
2017 - Tatum (3)
2018 - SGA (11)
2019 - Zion (1)
2020 - Haliburton (12)
2021 - Sengun (16)
2022 - Williams (11)
2023 - Wemby (1)

What's the reason?


2016 is Siakam. 2021 is Mobley so far with Cade 2nd. 2022 is too early, but it will end up being Chet. Broader point still stands .


What am I missing with Mobley? I would put him 3rd behind Cade and the young Turk.


DPOY, 1st team all defense, 2nd team all NBA in year 4?
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Re: jakobe & Dick were bad picks 

Post#122 » by everdiso » Tue Nov 11, 2025 8:53 pm

ForeverTFC wrote:
dTox wrote:
ForeverTFC wrote:
2016 is Siakam. 2021 is Mobley so far with Cade 2nd. 2022 is too early, but it will end up being Chet. Broader point still stands .


What am I missing with Mobley? I would put him 3rd behind Cade and the young Turk.


DPOY, 1st team all defense, 2nd team all NBA in year 4?


meh. all 3 honours thoroughly undeserved.
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Re: jakobe & Dick were bad picks 

Post#123 » by mdenny » Tue Nov 11, 2025 8:56 pm

They are bad picks if you generally over estimate the real value of first round picks. Which alot of people do. Neither of them are far off from properly calculated expected outcomes. If at all.
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Re: jakobe & Dick were bad picks 

Post#124 » by everdiso » Tue Nov 11, 2025 8:59 pm

Gonna be fun to watch this comp now that Scottie has some talent around him.

This year:

Scottie '26: 32.5mpg, 19.9pts (24.6usg%, 58.0ts%), 22.8ast%/10.0to%, 11.8rb%, 2.3st%, 4.5bk%, 4.6bpm
Mobley '26: 33.9mpg, 20.1pts (24.2usg%. 56.4ts%), 18.9ast%/12.1to%, 13.7rb%, 2.0st%, 4.3bk%, 3.0bpm
Mobley '25: 30.5mpg, 18.5pts (23.2usg%, 63.3ts%), 15.1ast%/12.2to%, 16.5rb%, 1.4st%, 4.7bk%, 4.6bpm
"I wasn't gonna act surprised - cuz I wasn't surprised."
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Re: jakobe & Dick were bad picks 

Post#125 » by ForeverTFC » Tue Nov 11, 2025 9:40 pm

everdiso wrote:
ForeverTFC wrote:
dTox wrote:
What am I missing with Mobley? I would put him 3rd behind Cade and the young Turk.


DPOY, 1st team all defense, 2nd team all NBA in year 4?


meh. all 3 honours thoroughly undeserved.


You guys are haters man :lol:
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Re: jakobe & Dick were bad picks 

Post#126 » by brownbobcat » Tue Nov 11, 2025 9:52 pm

mdenny wrote:They are bad picks if you generally over estimate the real value of first round picks. Which alot of people do. Neither of them are far off from properly calculated expected outcomes. If at all.

Ehhh, I think that's underselling it. The "expected outcome" of a team is a .500 record

By that standard, the 5-5 Raptors and their draft picks are probably exactly where they should be.

I'm not satisfied with a 50/50 result, though, and I would bet many other fans think the same way. By those standards, "average" is a disappointment.
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Re: jakobe & Dick were bad picks 

Post#127 » by mdenny » Tue Nov 11, 2025 11:48 pm

brownbobcat wrote:
mdenny wrote:They are bad picks if you generally over estimate the real value of first round picks. Which alot of people do. Neither of them are far off from properly calculated expected outcomes. If at all.

Ehhh, I think that's underselling it. The "expected outcome" of a team is a .500 record

By that standard, the 5-5 Raptors and their draft picks are probably exactly where they should be.

I'm not satisfied with a 50/50 result, though, and I would bet many other fans think the same way. By those standards, "average" is a disappointment.


It's a little different though because GMs have to assign an actual value or expected outcome for draft picks in order to trade them. So when ppl lose their minds because a guy like Poetl is traded for a 12th overall pick....they are neglecting the fact that a 12th overall pick value is basically Gradey Dick.

We ses it every year. Leading up to the draft pll onvince themselves that all the prospects are destined for greatness. Then after 2 or 3 seasons....it's revealed that the large majority turn out to be Gradey dick-like quality.

Few take notice of this because they are busy over-valuing the NEXT batch of prospects.

In anycase....the main point is that neither Dick nor Walter are "bad picks". And the best way of properly measuring that is to sed where they stack up in a redraft.

I havent reviewed thosd draft classes......but Gradey being around 12 in a redraft and Walter being around 18 doesn't sound far off. In order to be "bad picks".....they would have to drastically drop in the redraft. And i don't think they do. Or i don't think one could reasonably argue that they do.

I imagine they are pretty much aligned with their respective draft order. The redraft order should be the criteria. Not comparing them to the best player taken after them. As someone else mentioned....every GM fails that criteria. It's an impossibke standard to hold anyone to.
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Re: jakobe & Dick were bad picks 

Post#128 » by everdiso » Tue Nov 11, 2025 11:52 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=20
"I wasn't gonna act surprised - cuz I wasn't surprised."
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Re: jakobe & Dick were bad picks 

Post#129 » by Thaddy » Tue Nov 11, 2025 11:53 pm

Barnes and Mobley are very equal to me now. I think the passing is really important for transition offense and the lower turnover rate can't be overlooked.
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Re: jakobe & Dick were bad picks 

Post#130 » by mdenny » Wed Nov 12, 2025 12:00 am

I went and found a coulle redrafts. One was by CBS and the other by Espn.

Obviously these redrafts are always debateable but it DOES give a general overview and context.

Gradey Dick jumped two spots to 11 and Walter stayed in his exact same spot.

That tells me they are AVERAGE picks. Not bad ones.
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Re: jakobe & Dick were bad picks 

Post#131 » by dTox » Wed Nov 12, 2025 3:03 am

ForeverTFC wrote:
everdiso wrote:
ForeverTFC wrote:
DPOY, 1st team all defense, 2nd team all NBA in year 4?


meh. all 3 honours thoroughly undeserved.


You guys are haters man :lol:


I'm not denying his defensive impact, but he doesn't move the needle like a Cade, he shat the bed in b2b playoffs years, esp when he is relied upon as a secondary scorer (forget even as a primary).
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Re: jakobe & Dick were bad picks 

Post#132 » by rapluva » Wed Nov 12, 2025 5:04 am

Personally speaking.. I think Battle might take Gradeys minutes. Gradey has not been shooting the lights out this season..but off the bench is a good fit.

Jakobe looks short to me out there, meaning cant see him guarding 3s.. maybe the point and some shooting guards..he has been struggling with his shot, but is decent on defence. Geadey is the opposite, I just think Jamison doesn't get enough minutes.

Also, when our bugs are in trouble why cant the coach put in Mogbo for spot minutes..especially a game like today against the Nets.
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Re: jakobe & Dick were bad picks 

Post#133 » by Potential » Wed Nov 12, 2025 5:07 am

Mobley being 2nd team all nba last year is very undeserved and it's only because the Cavs were 1st in the east before their inevitable early playoff exit. The guy is good but those awards doesn't mean he's that good
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Re: jakobe & Dick were bad picks 

Post#134 » by brownbobcat » Wed Nov 12, 2025 7:29 am

mdenny wrote:It's a little different though because GMs have to assign an actual value or expected outcome for draft picks in order to trade them. So when ppl lose their minds because a guy like Poetl is traded for a 12th overall pick....they are neglecting the fact that a 12th overall pick value is basically Gradey Dick.

We ses it every year. Leading up to the draft pll onvince themselves that all the prospects are destined for greatness. Then after 2 or 3 seasons....it's revealed that the large majority turn out to be Gradey dick-like quality.

Few take notice of this because they are busy over-valuing the NEXT batch of prospects.

In anycase....the main point is that neither Dick nor Walter are "bad picks". And the best way of properly measuring that is to sed where they stack up in a redraft.

I havent reviewed thosd draft classes......but Gradey being around 12 in a redraft and Walter being around 18 doesn't sound far off. In order to be "bad picks".....they would have to drastically drop in the redraft. And i don't think they do. Or i don't think one could reasonably argue that they do.

I imagine they are pretty much aligned with their respective draft order. The redraft order should be the criteria. Not comparing them to the best player taken after them. As someone else mentioned....every GM fails that criteria. It's an impossibke standard to hold anyone to.

I agree that the very best player taken at that slot is a very high standard. However, the average player taken at that slot is also a terrible standard. By that logic, you should always be indifferent to trading picks for a vet giving the average expected outcome.

The stated goal of the front office is to *outperform*. You cannot do that if you settle for average. The question shouldn't be wondering if it's a bad pick, it should be asking - is this a *good* pick? And if the answer is 'no, it's average', that's failure in my view.

An example I've used multiple times to illustrate the flaw in expected values is to ask the following:

Which is better: a dunk with 100% probability of success or a 3pt shot with 10% probability of success?

The answer is: it depends. If you are down 3 and it's your last shot, the 3pt shot is always better because of the outcome *variance*
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Re: jakobe & Dick were bad picks 

Post#135 » by Los_29 » Wed Nov 12, 2025 11:03 am

brownbobcat wrote:
mdenny wrote:It's a little different though because GMs have to assign an actual value or expected outcome for draft picks in order to trade them. So when ppl lose their minds because a guy like Poetl is traded for a 12th overall pick....they are neglecting the fact that a 12th overall pick value is basically Gradey Dick.

We ses it every year. Leading up to the draft pll onvince themselves that all the prospects are destined for greatness. Then after 2 or 3 seasons....it's revealed that the large majority turn out to be Gradey dick-like quality.

Few take notice of this because they are busy over-valuing the NEXT batch of prospects.

In anycase....the main point is that neither Dick nor Walter are "bad picks". And the best way of properly measuring that is to sed where they stack up in a redraft.

I havent reviewed thosd draft classes......but Gradey being around 12 in a redraft and Walter being around 18 doesn't sound far off. In order to be "bad picks".....they would have to drastically drop in the redraft. And i don't think they do. Or i don't think one could reasonably argue that they do.

I imagine they are pretty much aligned with their respective draft order. The redraft order should be the criteria. Not comparing them to the best player taken after them. As someone else mentioned....every GM fails that criteria. It's an impossibke standard to hold anyone to.

I agree that the very best player taken at that slot is a very high standard. However, the average player taken at that slot is also a terrible standard. By that logic, you should always be indifferent to trading picks for a vet giving the average expected outcome.

The stated goal of the front office is to *outperform*. You cannot do that if you settle for average. The question shouldn't be wondering if it's a bad pick, it should be asking - is this a *good* pick? And if the answer is 'no, it's average', that's failure in my view.

An example I've used multiple times to illustrate the flaw in expected values is to ask the following:

Which is better: a dunk with 100% probability of success or a 3pt shot with 10% probability of success?

The answer is: it depends. If you are down 3 and it's your last shot, the 3pt shot is always better because of the outcome *variance*


The problem is people don’t actually look at players drafted after. The reality is the players drafted after Gradey and Walter aren’t that good or even good at all.
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Re: jakobe & Dick were bad picks 

Post#136 » by Duffman100 » Wed Nov 12, 2025 11:53 am

everdiso wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=20


Weird... haha. Love it.

At least it shows that Gradeys defense has to be a bit better this year
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Re: jakobe & Dick were bad picks 

Post#137 » by ATLTimekeeper » Wed Nov 12, 2025 1:03 pm

brownbobcat wrote:
mdenny wrote:It's a little different though because GMs have to assign an actual value or expected outcome for draft picks in order to trade them. So when ppl lose their minds because a guy like Poetl is traded for a 12th overall pick....they are neglecting the fact that a 12th overall pick value is basically Gradey Dick.

We ses it every year. Leading up to the draft pll onvince themselves that all the prospects are destined for greatness. Then after 2 or 3 seasons....it's revealed that the large majority turn out to be Gradey dick-like quality.

Few take notice of this because they are busy over-valuing the NEXT batch of prospects.

In anycase....the main point is that neither Dick nor Walter are "bad picks". And the best way of properly measuring that is to sed where they stack up in a redraft.

I havent reviewed thosd draft classes......but Gradey being around 12 in a redraft and Walter being around 18 doesn't sound far off. In order to be "bad picks".....they would have to drastically drop in the redraft. And i don't think they do. Or i don't think one could reasonably argue that they do.

I imagine they are pretty much aligned with their respective draft order. The redraft order should be the criteria. Not comparing them to the best player taken after them. As someone else mentioned....every GM fails that criteria. It's an impossibke standard to hold anyone to.

I agree that the very best player taken at that slot is a very high standard. However, the average player taken at that slot is also a terrible standard. By that logic, you should always be indifferent to trading picks for a vet giving the average expected outcome.

The stated goal of the front office is to *outperform*. You cannot do that if you settle for average. The question shouldn't be wondering if it's a bad pick, it should be asking - is this a *good* pick? And if the answer is 'no, it's average', that's failure in my view.

An example I've used multiple times to illustrate the flaw in expected values is to ask the following:

Which is better: a dunk with 100% probability of success or a 3pt shot with 10% probability of success?

The answer is: it depends. If you are down 3 and it's your last shot, the 3pt shot is always better because of the outcome *variance*


Not always, but yeah, you should re-evaluate the draft based on expected outcomes. You shouldn't be indifferent if your team is old and expensive, where a young cost controlled player can be valuable.

Ultimately, the probability for successful careers falls off a cliff at a certain point. I ask this question every year in the draft thread but go back a decade or so and look at the 10th best player in every draft. You're holding 30 executives (assuming everyone has picks) to a standard that isn't reasonable, as maybe 1/4 of all available draft picks have strong careers in the NBA. Not drafting one of the 3/4 that have a cup of coffee or worse after pick 15 or so should be seen as a success.

I think the reason we overestimate is that role definition has massive meanings.A "starter" could be someone like RJ or someone like Isaac Okoro. Two wildly different types of players.

Or if you went straight with a catch all stat like VORP, a player like Montrazl Harrell was impactful early in his career but flamed out quickly. But his VORP is 2X Kevon Looney, who was an excellent role player on a dynasty. The way we look at results might suggest Looney was a pretty average outcome for where he was selected, and that a better FO would have taken Harrell.
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Re: jakobe & Dick were bad picks 

Post#138 » by Jadoogar » Wed Nov 12, 2025 2:12 pm

Fans get too excited by first round picks.

Most players picked in the teens never make it in the league, let alone become valuable rotation players. Remember when this board was super into Kobe Bufkin? No longer in the league. I expect to see these types of posts about CMB when he has a few bad games

You guys need to temper expectations.
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Re: jakobe & Dick were bad picks 

Post#139 » by Jadoogar » Wed Nov 12, 2025 2:14 pm

ForeverTFC wrote:
everdiso wrote:
ForeverTFC wrote:
DPOY, 1st team all defense, 2nd team all NBA in year 4?


meh. all 3 honours thoroughly undeserved.


You guys are haters man :lol:


homer glasses. Scottie is 4th at best right now.
Jalen Johnson, Giddey, Franz, Austin Reaves could surpass him too
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Re: jakobe & Dick were bad picks 

Post#140 » by anotherhomer » Wed Nov 12, 2025 2:35 pm

Jadoogar wrote:
ForeverTFC wrote:
everdiso wrote:
meh. all 3 honours thoroughly undeserved.


You guys are haters man :lol:


homer glasses. Scottie is 4th at best right now.
Jalen Johnson, Giddey, Franz, Austin Reaves could surpass him too


i wouldn't say reaves yet

but guys liek Franz, Giddey ahead of him have shown they can carry the offensve of their team which is pretty signficant

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