Full rebuild for the Kings ? Is it really happening ?

[FarBeyondDriven]

Weren't they interested on Morant few days ago. Getting Morant doesn't sound like a tanking move, even though how he is playing now it really does.

So after this one third of the NBA are tanking. There's more teams trying to be really bad than trying to win championship. Great league we have here... Washington, Brooklyn, Utah, Indiana are tanking. Pelican don't want to tank, but they just suck, as do Charlotte. And soon Dallas, Memphis and Sacramento join to the mix and who knows about Boston.

Washington and Brooklyn are rebuilding. I don't think they're purposely tanking.

Charlotte is young, but they've also been bad for a long time. I think they need to move on from LaMelo. Memphis seems to be in a transition phase (will they trade Morant?). Sacramento is a mess, which is what they've been for years. Boston...who knows? Without Tatum they're not serious contenders.

they're definitely tanking. Teams that aren't tanking have defined roles and minutes and there's too much talent on every team, even the least talented, to lose more than 50 games. You need to stagger minutes, change roles, and get very creative in order to win only 12-20 games given how many injuries and load-management there is around the league. Sadly, the league will just screw them in the rigged draft lottery since they don't want superstars languishing there so it's all for naught.

[Dan Z]

Weren't they interested on Morant few days ago. Getting Morant doesn't sound like a tanking move, even though how he is playing now it really does.

So after this one third of the NBA are tanking. There's more teams trying to be really bad than trying to win championship. Great league we have here... Washington, Brooklyn, Utah, Indiana are tanking. Pelican don't want to tank, but they just suck, as do Charlotte. And soon Dallas, Memphis and Sacramento join to the mix and who knows about Boston.

Washington and Brooklyn are rebuilding. I don't think they're purposely tanking.

Charlotte is young, but they've also been bad for a long time. I think they need to move on from LaMelo. Memphis seems to be in a transition phase (will they trade Morant?). Sacramento is a mess, which is what they've been for years. Boston...who knows? Without Tatum they're not serious contenders.

they're definitely tanking. Teams that aren't tanking have defined roles and minutes and there's too much talent on every team, even the least talented, to lose more than 50 games. You need to stagger minutes, change roles, and get very creative in order to win only 12-20 games given how many injuries and load-management there is around the league. Sadly, the league will just screw them in the rigged draft lottery since they don't want superstars languishing there so it's all for naught.

Both those teams are just bad right now and they don't have to do anything to change that.

You think that if they pushed for every win they can get that would make a difference?

[Doctor MJ]

lol at “finally happening”. The Kings were at the tail end rebuilding just 3-4 years ago. They just happened to do a terrible job at it.

To be clear, I 100% agree that they need to be rebuilding rn, but maybe the rebuild should start with the front office.

Just tracing back here, I would see the Kings' "generations" in terms of their franchise players.

So, the Kings were in the Cousins Era from 2010 to 2017, and they've been in the Fox Era from 2017 to the present.

Now the main weird thing about saying the Kings are still in the Fox Era is because he's not on the team any more, and yet, this is the essence of why "finally happening" makes sense, because when you move on from the player who defined your era, you should be rebuilding, and yet the Kings have not.

[Doctor MJ]

DeRozan and Sabonis don't add value either. Pacers and Raptors had the most success post Sabonis and DD. Slim pickings.

That's a little unfair in Derozan's case, since they moved him for Kawai Leonard. They haven't had more success other than that one year he was there.

DeRozan is objectively one of the worst playoff performers in NBA history. I'm not sure there's a "star" wing who has been worse to be honest.

So I'll just point to a statistical measure on this. Below are the players with the worst career playoff +/- going back to when we first got that data in '96-97:

1. DeMar DeRozan -371
2. Carmelo Anthony -288
3. Marvin Williams -286
4. Wesley Matthews -284
5. Joe Johnson -270

Now, none of these guys are the "worst" playoff performers in this time frame, in part because we'd expect the worst players don't get to play that much, but if we want to talk about the players whose teams did the most losing in the playoffs with them on the floor, DeRozan is the king of this in the PBP era.

Additionally, we can take into account that if you're on teams that are just losing in the playoffs, then those who play more are going to have worse cume +/-. So with fairness on our minds there, let's only look at the Raptors - because that's where DeRozan was on winning playoff teams, winning 4 total series - and focus only on the DeRozan Raptor playoff era ('13-14 to '17-18). Here's the big minute playoff players from that group ranked by those minutes, but then with their +/- listed next to them:

DeMar DeRozan -273
Kyle Lowry -48
Jonas Valanciunas -58
Patrick Patterson -92
DeMarre Carroll -75

Now obviously that a guy like Carroll wasn't there for a the whole time, but Lowry & Valanciunas were, and they are WAY less negative than DeRozan. What we can see when we look at the On-Off is that in this span where DeRozan's team played 9 playoff series and won 4 of them, DeRozan had a -8.4 On and a -11.0 On-Off. DeRozan was always negative in both categories, but the scale of the On-Off means that the team on average was winning when DeRozan wasn't playing. This was also true in San Antonio, though in Chicago, while they did do better when DeRozan was on the bench, they still were losing.

So yeah, affirming what you're saying, good case to be made that DeRozan contributed the most cumulative negative playoff impact of any on the past 30 years.

And this makes sense given that he's only ever been good at volume scoring, and his efficiency reliably nosedives against playoff defense.

So yeah, first rule of any rebuild is that if DeRozan is on your roster, you have to remedy that ASAP.

[TimeisIllmatic]

Lakers gotta get in on this.

They could use Malik for a scoring punch off the bench but outside of that, I don't think any of the guys on the Kings are a good fit.

[ReddoverKobe]

Milwaukee needs Zach

Would have to be Kuzma, portis and Anthony and the 1st. I dont think the bucks want to toss that first in for Zach.

[FarBeyondDriven]

That's a little unfair in Derozan's case, since they moved him for Kawai Leonard. They haven't had more success other than that one year he was there.

DeRozan is objectively one of the worst playoff performers in NBA history. I'm not sure there's a "star" wing who has been worse to be honest.

So I'll just point to a statistical measure on this. Below are the players with the worst career playoff +/- going back to when we first got that data in '96-97:

1. DeMar DeRozan -371
2. Carmelo Anthony -288
3. Marvin Williams -286
4. Wesley Matthews -284
5. Joe Johnson -270

Now, none of these guys are the "worst" playoff performers in this time frame, in part because we'd expect the worst players don't get to play that much, but if we want to talk about the players whose teams did the most losing in the playoffs with them on the floor, DeRozan is the king of this in the PBP era.

Additionally, we can take into account that if you're on teams that are just losing in the playoffs, then those who play more are going to have worse cume +/-. So with fairness on our minds there, let's only look at the Raptors - because that's where DeRozan was on winning playoff teams, winning 4 total series - and focus only on the DeRozan Raptor playoff era ('13-14 to '17-18). Here's the big minute playoff players from that group ranked by those minutes, but then with their +/- listed next to them:

DeMar DeRozan -273
Kyle Lowry -48
Jonas Valanciunas -58
Patrick Patterson -92
DeMarre Carroll -75

Now obviously that a guy like Carroll wasn't there for a the whole time, but Lowry & Valanciunas were, and they are WAY less negative than DeRozan. What we can see when we look at the On-Off is that in this span where DeRozan's team played 9 playoff series and won 4 of them, DeRozan had a -8.4 On and a -11.0 On-Off. DeRozan was always negative in both categories, but the scale of the On-Off means that the team on average was winning when DeRozan wasn't playing. This was also true in San Antonio, though in Chicago, while they did do better when DeRozan was on the bench, they still were losing.

So yeah, affirming what you're saying, good case to be made that DeRozan contributed the most cumulative negative playoff impact of any on the past 30 years.

And this makes sense given that he's only ever been good at volume scoring, and his efficiency reliably nosedives against playoff defense.

So yeah, first rule of any rebuild is that if DeRozan is on your roster, you have to remedy that ASAP.

+/- is a little unfair given his teams were mostly underdogs every series. I mean, the poor guy ran into Lebron 3 times (lost), Wade (won), George (won), Giannis (won), Pierce/KG/Williams Nets (lost), Wall/Beal/Porter Jr when he was young (lost) but a few year later beat them and Jokic (lost) all while being clear underdogs

[Chuck Everett]

DeRozan is objectively one of the worst playoff performers in NBA history. I'm not sure there's a "star" wing who has been worse to be honest.

So I'll just point to a statistical measure on this. Below are the players with the worst career playoff +/- going back to when we first got that data in '96-97:

1. DeMar DeRozan -371
2. Carmelo Anthony -288
3. Marvin Williams -286
4. Wesley Matthews -284
5. Joe Johnson -270

Now, none of these guys are the "worst" playoff performers in this time frame, in part because we'd expect the worst players don't get to play that much, but if we want to talk about the players whose teams did the most losing in the playoffs with them on the floor, DeRozan is the king of this in the PBP era.

Additionally, we can take into account that if you're on teams that are just losing in the playoffs, then those who play more are going to have worse cume +/-. So with fairness on our minds there, let's only look at the Raptors - because that's where DeRozan was on winning playoff teams, winning 4 total series - and focus only on the DeRozan Raptor playoff era ('13-14 to '17-18). Here's the big minute playoff players from that group ranked by those minutes, but then with their +/- listed next to them:

DeMar DeRozan -273
Kyle Lowry -48
Jonas Valanciunas -58
Patrick Patterson -92
DeMarre Carroll -75

Now obviously that a guy like Carroll wasn't there for a the whole time, but Lowry & Valanciunas were, and they are WAY less negative than DeRozan. What we can see when we look at the On-Off is that in this span where DeRozan's team played 9 playoff series and won 4 of them, DeRozan had a -8.4 On and a -11.0 On-Off. DeRozan was always negative in both categories, but the scale of the On-Off means that the team on average was winning when DeRozan wasn't playing. This was also true in San Antonio, though in Chicago, while they did do better when DeRozan was on the bench, they still were losing.

So yeah, affirming what you're saying, good case to be made that DeRozan contributed the most cumulative negative playoff impact of any on the past 30 years.

And this makes sense given that he's only ever been good at volume scoring, and his efficiency reliably nosedives against playoff defense.

So yeah, first rule of any rebuild is that if DeRozan is on your roster, you have to remedy that ASAP.

+/- is a little unfair given his teams were mostly underdogs every series. I mean, the poor guy ran into Lebron 3 times (lost), Wade (won), George (won), Giannis (won), Pierce/KG/Williams Nets (lost), Wall/Beal/Porter Jr when he was young (lost) but a few year later beat them and Jokic (lost) all while being clear underdogs

So I wasn't even just going by his +/-. DeRozan regularly was outplayed by role players during his heyday as well. He always shot poorly, couldn't guard anyone and literally brought zero intangibles. All those other names were still capable of having a big game. Not him though.

[Doctor MJ]

DeRozan is objectively one of the worst playoff performers in NBA history. I'm not sure there's a "star" wing who has been worse to be honest.

So I'll just point to a statistical measure on this. Below are the players with the worst career playoff +/- going back to when we first got that data in '96-97:

1. DeMar DeRozan -371
2. Carmelo Anthony -288
3. Marvin Williams -286
4. Wesley Matthews -284
5. Joe Johnson -270

Now, none of these guys are the "worst" playoff performers in this time frame, in part because we'd expect the worst players don't get to play that much, but if we want to talk about the players whose teams did the most losing in the playoffs with them on the floor, DeRozan is the king of this in the PBP era.

Additionally, we can take into account that if you're on teams that are just losing in the playoffs, then those who play more are going to have worse cume +/-. So with fairness on our minds there, let's only look at the Raptors - because that's where DeRozan was on winning playoff teams, winning 4 total series - and focus only on the DeRozan Raptor playoff era ('13-14 to '17-18). Here's the big minute playoff players from that group ranked by those minutes, but then with their +/- listed next to them:

DeMar DeRozan -273
Kyle Lowry -48
Jonas Valanciunas -58
Patrick Patterson -92
DeMarre Carroll -75

Now obviously that a guy like Carroll wasn't there for a the whole time, but Lowry & Valanciunas were, and they are WAY less negative than DeRozan. What we can see when we look at the On-Off is that in this span where DeRozan's team played 9 playoff series and won 4 of them, DeRozan had a -8.4 On and a -11.0 On-Off. DeRozan was always negative in both categories, but the scale of the On-Off means that the team on average was winning when DeRozan wasn't playing. This was also true in San Antonio, though in Chicago, while they did do better when DeRozan was on the bench, they still were losing.

So yeah, affirming what you're saying, good case to be made that DeRozan contributed the most cumulative negative playoff impact of any on the past 30 years.

And this makes sense given that he's only ever been good at volume scoring, and his efficiency reliably nosedives against playoff defense.

So yeah, first rule of any rebuild is that if DeRozan is on your roster, you have to remedy that ASAP.

+/- is a little unfair given his teams were mostly underdogs every series. I mean, the poor guy ran into Lebron 3 times (lost), Wade (won), George (won), Giannis (won), Pierce/KG/Williams Nets (lost), Wall/Beal/Porter Jr when he was young (lost) but a few year later beat them and Jokic (lost) all while being clear underdogs

You catch the part where I compared him with teammates?

Also to be clear, the Raptors were 4-5 in those series. Absolutely no reason to expect massive negative plus minus, let alone only from one player on the team.


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[TheHartBreakKid]

lol at “finally happening”. The Kings were at the tail end rebuilding just 3-4 years ago. They just happened to do a terrible job at it.
To be clear, I 100% agree that they need to be rebuilding rn, but maybe the rebuild should start with the front office.

Kings have never a full rebuild

It depends on how you define a "full rebuild." But for me, I’d say they haven’t done a "proper rebuild," despite always seeming to be in one.

They traded Cousins in 2017, got rookie-contract Hield as the main piece, and drafted Fox that offseason.

They were seemingly rebuilding at that point, but yeah, they gave George Hill a questionable contract — then quickly dumped him in a salary trade.

By February 2019, they had Fox, Bagley, and WCS still on rookie deals, Hield (whose extension was about to kick in), and a bunch of expiring or smaller contracts.

I don’t know if you’d call that a “full rebuild,” but to me, it looks a lot like OKC’s or San Antonio’s recent rebuilds in terms of contract situations and team age.

Then they chose to flip an expiring Zach Randolph for Harrison Barnes.

My point is, there’s really no such thing as a “full rebuild,” in my opinion. They never deliberately or strategically tanked for a few years à la The Process Sixers — I agree. But at this point, it’s mostly just semantics.

[Anderson Hunt]

Lakers gotta get in on this.

They could use Malik for a scoring punch off the bench but outside of that, I don't think any of the guys on the Kings are a good fit.

Vincent, Kleber, Knecht, and a 1st
for
Monk, Carter, and Clifford

[FarBeyondDriven]

there are still people blaming Vivek for this mess btw. As if he's scouting draft prospects and taking older "win-now" prospects instead of most talented. As if he's calling G.M.s and agents and acquiring Dennis Schroder and Westbrook. As if he's the one extending Keegan "mid" Murray to a deal he doesn't nearly deserve. Sorry to those misinformed but this is an inept GM issue from both Monte McNair and Scott Perry not an owner issue. The only blame Vivek should be receiving is that he hired these two buffoons. This is disastrous. I don't think the NBA would even allow a superstar to be drafted by them and even if they didn't rig the lottery and the Kings somehow got a high pick the player would justifiably force his way elsewhere like Luka did. They're so screwed.

[sisibilio]

They have been fully rebuilding for 18 of the last 20 years

[WestbrookGOATed]

I still don't understand why the hell they traded Fox.

[Doctor MJ]

there are still people blaming Vivek for this mess btw. As if he's scouting draft prospects and taking older "win-now" prospects instead of most talented. As if he's calling G.M.s and agents and acquiring Dennis Schroder and Westbrook. As if he's the one extending Keegan "mid" Murray to a deal he doesn't nearly deserve. Sorry to those misinformed but this is an inept GM issue from both Monte McNair and Scott Perry not an owner issue. The only blame Vivek should be receiving is that he hired these two buffoons. This is disastrous. I don't think the NBA would even allow a superstar to be drafted by them and even if they didn't rig the lottery and the Kings somehow got a high pick the player would justifiably force his way elsewhere like Luka did. They're so screwed.

So, when saying Vivek’s hires deserve the blame instead of Vivek, I’d note that you’re not mentioning any of the 3 big moves that I’d point to to explain why the Kings have been the worst run franchise of the past decade or so:

1. Firing Malone early one season where the team was outperforming expectation because of a desire for faster playing style while still having a star in Cousins unsuited for such a style.

2. Hiring Divac specifically as GM when he was totally unprepared for the role leading to the blowing of the Luka pick.

3. Trading Haliburton for an older player in order to “win now”.

I’m skeptical that any GM would have spearheaded 1 or 3, which seem clearly directed generally by capricious and impatient ownership.

For 2, Divac himself deserves primary blame, but Divac was so unqualified for the job I don’t see how we can ignore the incompetence of the man who hired him.


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[-Luke-]

I still don't understand why the hell they traded Fox.

I don't understand why they didn't get that 2031 pick (swap) back in the deal and told the Spurs the deal isn't happening if that is not involved. I mean, you make a deal with a team that involves draft capital and you don't get your own pick back? Did the Sac front office just forget about that?

[Magic_Johnny12]

I still don't understand why the hell they traded Fox.

The real question is why they didn’t trade Fox when Haliburton had the season he had with the Kings.

Sacramento would have stayed young, kept their home grown rising star and traded Fox when his value was at his peak.

This is malpractice by management and this error has set them back at least a decade of rebuilding.

Lavine is still a negative asset/player.
Derozan is an aging neutral asset/player at most.

Sabonis is their only ticket to getting some real value back and that is changing by the day.

This “rebuild” is YEARS too late.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I still don't understand why the hell they traded Fox.

The real question is why they didn’t trade Fox when Haliburton had the season he had with the Kings.

Sacramento would have stayed young, kept their home grown rising star and traded Fox when his value was at his peak.

This is malpractice by management and this error has set them back at least a decade of rebuilding.

Lavine is still a negative asset/player.
Derozan is an aging neutral asset/player at most.

Sabonis is their only ticket to getting some real value back and that is changing by the day.

This “rebuild” is YEARS too late.

[Mephariel]

I still don't understand why the hell they traded Fox.

Because management didn't want to pay. Again, I don't blame McNair. I just don't think he had the timeframe he needed to continue building the game.

[Mephariel]

there are still people blaming Vivek for this mess btw. As if he's scouting draft prospects and taking older "win-now" prospects instead of most talented. As if he's calling G.M.s and agents and acquiring Dennis Schroder and Westbrook. As if he's the one extending Keegan "mid" Murray to a deal he doesn't nearly deserve. Sorry to those misinformed but this is an inept GM issue from both Monte McNair and Scott Perry not an owner issue. The only blame Vivek should be receiving is that he hired these two buffoons. This is disastrous. I don't think the NBA would even allow a superstar to be drafted by them and even if they didn't rig the lottery and the Kings somehow got a high pick the player would justifiably force his way elsewhere like Luka did. They're so screwed.

None of what McNair did was fatal. McNair built a playoff team and drafted Haliburton. The issue is not Vivek scouting, the issue is the timeframe that was reported. Vivek basically had a win now mandate so McNair had to make trades. We should have kept Haliburton and Fox and build the team from there.

Anyway, I am all in for the full rebuild.