Where do you rank Kawhi in your all-time list?

[art_tatum]

Let's not forget that during the 09 finals AT the time ( look it up in the raptors and general forum) people said the best player of the series was slightly curry, even raptor fans especially after his outburst with klay and kd missing. His defense was also overstated as curry scored on him 1 on 1 with no problem. Van fleet did a better job.


Only afterwards, mostly to bring down LeBron, were people championing KL as taking the mantle as best player in the league after the season. Especially the media to create content / debate and also news about where he would land.

I personally have his peak outside the top 10. His first fmvp doesn't hold much value to me as well.

[The4thHorseman]

Pierce wasn’t the best player on those teams; KG was.

KG never won Finals MVP.....

Okay, so you believe that Tony Parker was better than Tim Duncan in 2007? That Iggy was better than Curry in 2015?

They were for those specific Finals. The award isn't about who voters think the best player on the team is, it's about who played the best/made the biggest impact in those Finals.

[Hornet Mania]

I wouldn't rank him very high unless it's a peaks list. His career is a slightly better version of the Bill Walton situation plus 3-4 years of being a really great role player before he blossomed.

[NZB2323]

anywhere from 25-40 i would be ok with.

Lets be real, he had 1 great run with the loaded raptors who were also lucky in that they faced an injured warriors team. they were also a bad bounce away from not making the finals. The raptors title is legit ofc, im just saying that was Kawhis only real boost to the all time list.

playoffs wise he hasnt done much in his prime otherwise on a stacked clippers team except for a conference finals appearance where they lost to the cp3 booker suns.
before that he lost to a young joker, and a lesser nuggets team. the past few years have been terrible even when healthy.

people bring up his 2 fmvps like it holds much weight over regular season mvps.
kawhi's 1st fmvp was not like his 2nd. it was a full team effort and couldve easily gone to other players, especially since the spurs crushed the heat.

sure his short prime and raptors run showed that he was a top 4 player at the time kawhi/lbj/curry/kd

but all time lists need sustained excellence,

imo he is not top 30. anything slightly below that i can agree to. top 20 isnt even debatable

he has 0 arguments over (in no specific order, better players on top half tho):

MJ
Lebron
KAJ
Wilt
Duncan

Curry
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Kobe

Hakeem
Joker
KD
Giannis
julius irving


Moses Malone
Dirk
karl malone
david robinson
nash
oscar robinson

and thats over 20 already, NOT even including old heads like west mikan russell.

theres still guys like wade harden cp3 barkley etc who all belong in the top 25. imo you can argue kawhi with these guys except maybe wade. but their longevity > lack of a ring

0 argument over Nash, who was terrible in the 04 playoffs, is bad at defense, and never won a ring?

0 argument over Karl Malone, who never won a ring, choked in big playoff games, and has a career 52.6 TS% in the playoffs?

They're both two time MVP winners that carried their franchises for a decade plus. But just came up against all time teams like the prime Spurs and bulls. While young KL was lucky to be in a situation to win his first ring with that same pairs dynasty where his fmvp imo holds little value compared to Nash/Malone's MVPs.

Kawhis clippers have been pretty irrelevant

Nash never carried a franchise for a decade plus. He was a bench player in phoenix and then the 3rd best player in Dallas and then the 2nd best player in Dallas and then was the best player in phoenix for 8 years and made the playoffs 5 out of those 8 years.

Kawhi also changed the series against Milwaukee by guarding Giannis and his defense against Lebron in 2014 helped the Spurs win. Nash didn’t play defense.

Kawhi had a lead on the KD Warriors before getting hurt. I would also say the prime Spurs was 2014 and that the 98 Bulls are not an “all-time great team.” 62 wins, +7.9 NetRtg, the oldest team to ever win a championship.

And the 2 years Malone won MVP he played much worse in the playoffs. In 97 he won MVP with a 60 TS% and in the playoffs had a 50.1 TS%. In 99 he won MVP with a 57.7 TS% and in the playoffs had a 49.2 TS.%. Compare that to Kawhi in 2019 who had a 60.6 TS% in the regular season and 61.9 TS% in the playoffs.

[tsherkin]

With his availability, lack of accolades and stuff, he isn't top-30 to me. Critical element for the 2019 title in Toronto for sure, and at his best he's right up there with a lot of people... but that describes many players with a similar set of achievements.

[NZB2323]

With his availability, lack of accolades and stuff, he isn't top-30 to me. Critical element for the 2019 title in Toronto for sure, and at his best he's right up there with a lot of people... but that describes many players with a similar set of achievements.

Jordan, Hakeem, Kawhi, and Giannis are the only players who have won a DPOTY and Finals MVP.

There aren’t 30 players who have a similar set of achievements.

[cupcakesnake]

I have him at #33, on the lower end of a tier with Pippen, Barkley, Wade, Stockton, Harden, Reggie, Ewing (and probably Petit, Frazier, and Havlicek).

He has one of the best peaks of this group, though Kawhi's peak is tough to point at. 2017 he was murdering everyone but his playoffs got cut short by Zaza. He was still playing active defense in 2017 too. In 2019 we get the storybook dominant playoff run, but Kawhi's defense is much less active.

He lacks a little in the number of high quality seasons he's produced, due to injury.

[TheGeneral99]

Top 30-35.

He's obviously a difficult one, because peak healthy Kawhi circa 2016-2019, is arguably a top 10 player of all-time and better than prime Kobe, but due to injuries we never really got to see what he could really do.

[TheGeneral99]

With his availability, lack of accolades and stuff, he isn't top-30 to me. Critical element for the 2019 title in Toronto for sure, and at his best he's right up there with a lot of people... but that describes many players with a similar set of achievements.

It's the argument of longevity vs. peak.

Most people have guys like CP3, Barkley, Stockton, Isiah etc. in the top 30; however, I would take prime Kawhi over all those guys, but in terms of overall accolades (all-NBA teams, all-star appearances, total stats etc.) they obviously have the upper hand. Kawhi from 2015-2017 was the best two way player in the NBA, and his 2017 and 2019 post-season runs were some of the most dominant in NBA history, culminating in a finals MVP. The issue is that his peak was extremely short-lived.

[ReddoverKobe]

Someplace in that 40 to 50 range.

His peak would of course be way up there.

[tsherkin]

With his availability, lack of accolades and stuff, he isn't top-30 to me. Critical element for the 2019 title in Toronto for sure, and at his best he's right up there with a lot of people... but that describes many players with a similar set of achievements.

Jordan, Hakeem, Kawhi, and Giannis are the only players who have won a DPOTY and Finals MVP.

There aren’t 30 players who have a similar set of achievements.

Sure there are. Simply not IDENTICAL achievements. He's not around enough, has missed so much time, that it's hard to compare him to guys who've actually been playing. It's also worth noting that he wasn't a DPOY-level player when he left San Antonio.

It's the argument of longevity vs. peak.

Sure.

Most people have guys like CP3, Barkley, Stockton, Isiah etc. in the top 30; however, I would take prime Kawhi over all those guys, but in terms of overall accolades (all-NBA teams, all-star appearances, total stats etc.) they obviously have the upper hand.

Yep, I'm with you. I favor a minimum level of availability when I'm doing the all-time ranking type of stuff. And to be honest, I should probably stop and think about the specific rankings and such, because I generally have him above a guy like Isiah, for sure.

But the point stands, at least for how I manage my rankings. Lower, because of his injury issues.

[kobe_vs_jordan]

Above KD

I’m not a big KD fan, but this seems silly. KD has longevity on Kawhi, a MVP, has a winning record against Kawhi in the regular season and playoffs, and outplays him in those games.

KD: 28, 8, and 4
Kawhi: 19, 7, and 3

Longevity mostly luck? Kawhi peak and ceiling is KD offensive output with all time great defense.

[kobe_vs_jordan]

I have Pierce high on my ranking because he beat prime Lebron and prime Kobe

Celtics Big three beat prime Kobe and LeBron

Kobe really never won anything, it was all Pau Gasol .....

If you want to start talking about teammates

I agree. Gasol better tier than Pierce too. All time great second option in his prime.

[NZB2323]

Above KD

I’m not a big KD fan, but this seems silly. KD has longevity on Kawhi, a MVP, has a winning record against Kawhi in the regular season and playoffs, and outplays him in those games.

KD: 28, 8, and 4
Kawhi: 19, 7, and 3

Longevity mostly luck? Kawhi peak and ceiling is KD offensive output with all time great defense.

It’s pretty silly to just throw longevity out the window. KD beat and outplayed Kawhi head to head and has longevity on him.

Kawhi was in his prime in 2016. The Spurs won 67 games and Kawhi won DPOTY and was 2nd in MVP voting. He lost to Durant in 6.

Kawhi: 23, 7, and 4, 55.4 TS%, 18.4 GmSc
Durant: 29, 7, and 4, 60.1 TS%, 19.6 GmSc

Now if you say, “small sample size, look at their whole careers,” then we can look at their whole careers where KD is 18th in WS and Kawhi is 93rd and KD is 8th in VORP and Kawhi is 40th.

I’m not a KD fan at all, and think some people really overrrate him, but he has to be ahead of Kawhi.

[kobe_vs_jordan]

I’m not a big KD fan, but this seems silly. KD has longevity on Kawhi, a MVP, has a winning record against Kawhi in the regular season and playoffs, and outplays him in those games.

KD: 28, 8, and 4
Kawhi: 19, 7, and 3

Longevity mostly luck? Kawhi peak and ceiling is KD offensive output with all time great defense.

It’s pretty silly to just throw longevity out the window. KD beat and outplayed Kawhi head to head and has longevity on him.

Kawhi was in his prime in 2016. The Spurs won 67 games and Kawhi won DPOTY and was 2nd in MVP voting. He lost to Durant in 6.

Kawhi: 23, 7, and 4, 55.4 TS%, 18.4 GmSc
Durant: 29, 7, and 4, 60.1 TS%, 19.6 GmSc

Now if you say, “small sample size, look at their whole careers,” then we can look at their whole careers where KD is 18th in WS and Kawhi is 93rd and KD is 8th in VORP and Kawhi is 40th.

I’m not a KD fan at all, and think some people really overrrate him, but he has to be ahead of Kawhi.

Longevity matters in comparable peaks. It’s mostly luck. Kawhi having bad knees for nearly a decade and still been an elite two way force. Says something about his talent.

KD hasn’t won any meaningful games with his longevity. Been 4 years since he made a finals run.

Kawhi one championship run more impressive than KD two GSW titles.

I don’t think many call 24 year old prime kawhi. He was good but 25 year old kawhi was when he showed all time ranking potential imo.

[NZB2323]

Longevity mostly luck? Kawhi peak and ceiling is KD offensive output with all time great defense.

It’s pretty silly to just throw longevity out the window. KD beat and outplayed Kawhi head to head and has longevity on him.

Kawhi was in his prime in 2016. The Spurs won 67 games and Kawhi won DPOTY and was 2nd in MVP voting. He lost to Durant in 6.

Kawhi: 23, 7, and 4, 55.4 TS%, 18.4 GmSc
Durant: 29, 7, and 4, 60.1 TS%, 19.6 GmSc

Now if you say, “small sample size, look at their whole careers,” then we can look at their whole careers where KD is 18th in WS and Kawhi is 93rd and KD is 8th in VORP and Kawhi is 40th.

I’m not a KD fan at all, and think some people really overrrate him, but he has to be ahead of Kawhi.

KD hasn’t won any meaningful games with his longevity.

KD carried his team to the finals when he was 22, except he didn’t face an injured team in the finals. He made the WCF when he was 21. Kawhi didn’t make an all-star team until he was 24.

KD has longevity on the front half of his career as well, and won meaningful games, destroying Kawhi in 2011 just like he did in 2016.

I guess we can say age 25 was Kawhi’s prime, but he got injured in the playoffs that year, and as great as he was in 2019, he got to rest during the regular season and faced an injured opponent in the finals. He doesn’t really have a “prime year” that includes regular season and playoffs that puts him so far ahead of Durant where we ignore longevity.