tmorgan wrote:This is going to sound nuts, because I just made this thread yesterday, but Detroit is probably starting to wonder if Daniss Jenkins is indeed the backup PG they need. Played well on Monday and Wednesday, very cheap (on a 2-way right now, 38 games left), worth considering. At the very least, it reduces the urgency in looking for a backup 1.
The plan for the season was to see if Ivey is capable of running the 2nd unity and play PG, I doubt that changed. I am not excited about that, I think Ivey is a great SG, but he is clueless at PG.
PF is a bigger concern but against my particular opinion and expectations Stewart was awessome playing PF minutes before he rolled his ankle.
As for Jenkins, we should waive Klintman and sign Jenkins to a full time contract and get someone else with the 2 way contract. Klintman does not belong in the NBA, he is a skilled kid, but he is terrible, he is soft and his attitude and body language are terrible as well, he need to go asap.
Agree with all of this. Klintman is a bum and Jenkins deserves a real contract.
Yeah, Jenkins has definitely been way more impressive in limited minutes than Klintman. Keep hoping we can find someone who finds Klintman's potential enticing and have him as a trade sweetener for a nice 3 and D depth piece, but that's probably wishful thinking.
Kalamazoo317 wrote:Yeah, Jenkins has definitely been way more impressive in limited minutes than Klintman. Keep hoping we can find someone who finds Klintman's potential enticing and have him as a trade sweetener for a nice 3 and D depth piece, but that's probably wishful thinking.
I don't think that is wishful thinking . . . depending on how "nice" you want that 3+D piece to be
DET has financial room, so Klintman can be swapped for a better player (who is paid more) if the other team needs to shed some salary. A good example is TOR, who needs to shave a little less than a million to duck the tax
TOR out/DET in: Ochai Agbaji
DET out/TOR in: Klintman + Isaac Jones
Agabji is JAG, but at least he belongs on an NBA court and not in the Gleague. DET gets a look at a 4th year player before RFA for virtually nothing (Jones might be OK, but DET has 3 players ahead of him at C). TOR ducks the luxury tax and picks up enough financial room to try out some GLeaguers for backup C (either Jones or whoever). TOR might even toss in a SRP.
Other teams we might do something like this with are any team that is a little bit over the luxury tax line and wants to shed a few salary dollars this season. It looks like there are 8 teams less than $10M over the luxury tax line who we could help out with a trade: PHI, LAL, HOU, LAC, ORL, TOR, DEN, PHX
In a no-win argument, the first poster to Let It Go will at least retain some peace of mind
Kalamazoo317 wrote:Yeah, Jenkins has definitely been way more impressive in limited minutes than Klintman. Keep hoping we can find someone who finds Klintman's potential enticing and have him as a trade sweetener for a nice 3 and D depth piece, but that's probably wishful thinking.
I don't think that is wishful thinking . . . depending on how "nice" you want that 3+D piece to be
DET has financial room, so Klintman can be swapped for a better player (who is paid more) if the other team needs to shed some salary. A good example is TOR, who needs to shave a little less than a million to duck the tax
TOR out/DET in: Ochai Agbaji
DET out/TOR in: Klintman + Isaac Jones
Agabji is JAG, but at least he belongs on an NBA court and not in the Gleague. DET gets a look at a 4th year player before RFA for virtually nothing (Jones might be OK, but DET has 3 players ahead of him at C). TOR ducks the luxury tax and picks up enough financial room to try out some GLeaguers for backup C (either Jones or whoever). TOR might even toss in a SRP.
Other teams we might do something like this with are any team that is a little bit over the luxury tax line and wants to shed a few salary dollars this season. It looks like there are 8 teams less than $10M over the luxury tax line who we could help out with a trade: PHI, LAL, HOU, LAC, ORL, TOR, DEN, PHX
Kalamazoo317 wrote:Yeah, Jenkins has definitely been way more impressive in limited minutes than Klintman. Keep hoping we can find someone who finds Klintman's potential enticing and have him as a trade sweetener for a nice 3 and D depth piece, but that's probably wishful thinking.
I don't think that is wishful thinking . . . depending on how "nice" you want that 3+D piece to be
DET has financial room, so Klintman can be swapped for a better player (who is paid more) if the other team needs to shed some salary. A good example is TOR, who needs to shave a little less than a million to duck the tax
TOR out/DET in: Ochai Agbaji
DET out/TOR in: Klintman + Isaac Jones
Agabji is JAG, but at least he belongs on an NBA court and not in the Gleague. DET gets a look at a 4th year player before RFA for virtually nothing (Jones might be OK, but DET has 3 players ahead of him at C). TOR ducks the luxury tax and picks up enough financial room to try out some GLeaguers for backup C (either Jones or whoever). TOR might even toss in a SRP.
Other teams we might do something like this with are any team that is a little bit over the luxury tax line and wants to shed a few salary dollars this season. It looks like there are 8 teams less than $10M over the luxury tax line who we could help out with a trade: PHI, LAL, HOU, LAC, ORL, TOR, DEN, PHX
I would do this for paul reed, but not jones
As you may recall I follow both teams. I've got Paul Reed and Mamu as roughly equal in value; Isaac Jones and Orlando Robinson are similar tier, borderline NBA/GLeague guys; Agbaji is in a tier between that i.e. he's not a scrub, but he's not playing a significant role and might not ever.
I don't think Agbaji holds much value on his contract -- certainly not Paul Reed level value -- and if the trade becomes Agbaji+SRPs for Reed, I just don't see the point for DET
The major value for TOR is ducking the tax. I think Agbaji is good enough for another team to look at him as worth it for a guy who doesn't/shouldn't play, but really no more than that. If TOR cares about who it gets back, then Agbaji is purely neutral fill and TOR needs to both (1) kick in more value as well as (2) target a C or C/PF who is available
In a no-win argument, the first poster to Let It Go will at least retain some peace of mind
oldncreaky wrote: I don't think that is wishful thinking . . . depending on how "nice" you want that 3+D piece to be
DET has financial room, so Klintman can be swapped for a better player (who is paid more) if the other team needs to shed some salary. A good example is TOR, who needs to shave a little less than a million to duck the tax
TOR out/DET in: Ochai Agbaji
DET out/TOR in: Klintman + Isaac Jones
Agabji is JAG, but at least he belongs on an NBA court and not in the Gleague. DET gets a look at a 4th year player before RFA for virtually nothing (Jones might be OK, but DET has 3 players ahead of him at C). TOR ducks the luxury tax and picks up enough financial room to try out some GLeaguers for backup C (either Jones or whoever). TOR might even toss in a SRP.
Other teams we might do something like this with are any team that is a little bit over the luxury tax line and wants to shed a few salary dollars this season. It looks like there are 8 teams less than $10M over the luxury tax line who we could help out with a trade: PHI, LAL, HOU, LAC, ORL, TOR, DEN, PHX
I would do this for paul reed, but not jones
As you may recall I follow both teams. I've got Paul Reed and Mamu as roughly equal in value; Isaac Jones and Orlando Robinson are similar tier, borderline NBA/GLeague guys; Agbaji is in a tier between that i.e. he's not a scrub, but he's not playing a significant role and might not ever.
I don't think Agbaji holds much value on his contract -- certainly not Paul Reed level value -- and if the trade becomes Agbaji+SRPs for Reed, I just don't see the point for DET
The major value for TOR is ducking the tax. I think Agbaji is good enough for another team to look at him as worth it for a guy who doesn't/shouldn't play, but really no more than that. If TOR cares about who it gets back, then Agbaji is purely neutral fill and TOR needs to both (1) kick in more value as well as (2) target a C or C/PF who is available
eh i rather spend a 2nd(s) if needed to attach to agbaji to fill a roster hole than get back random fillers. maybe if a 3rd team prefers detroit fillers more this could work
Godaddycurse wrote: I would do this for paul reed, but not jones
As you may recall I follow both teams. I've got Paul Reed and Mamu as roughly equal in value; Isaac Jones and Orlando Robinson are similar tier, borderline NBA/GLeague guys; Agbaji is in a tier between that i.e. he's not a scrub, but he's not playing a significant role and might not ever.
I don't think Agbaji holds much value on his contract -- certainly not Paul Reed level value -- and if the trade becomes Agbaji+SRPs for Reed, I just don't see the point for DET
The major value for TOR is ducking the tax. I think Agbaji is good enough for another team to look at him as worth it for a guy who doesn't/shouldn't play, but really no more than that. If TOR cares about who it gets back, then Agbaji is purely neutral fill and TOR needs to both (1) kick in more value as well as (2) target a C or C/PF who is available
eh i rather spend a 2nd(s) if needed to attach to agbaji to fill a roster hole than get back random fillers. maybe if a 3rd team prefers detroit fillers more this could work
I agree that TOR could really use another playable big, but there isn't any point in asking (EC-leading) DET to give up one of their bigs for assets DET just doesn't care about.
The first post itt does a great job of laying out DET's priorities. Moving out players for minor draft capital isn't on the menu. If TOR gets to the point where the FO decides they don't want to pay luxury tax for the roster then I think moving Agbaji for someone (anyone!) who makes less is feasible -- but other than that I don't see any trades between DET and TOR that benefit both teams
In a no-win argument, the first poster to Let It Go will at least retain some peace of mind
Texas Chuck wrote:But if Minny was actually shipping Randle and for futures(or trying some complicated 3 team thing) then this is where Detroit should look first, not AD or Lauri.
Interesting point -- I had not thought of Randle on DET, but it is appealing to me
For context, I moved TC's quote above to this thread about DET looking for upgrades, and am also re-quoting the first post itt which lays out DET needs:
tmorgan wrote:There’s some Detroit action in here from folks, but I thought I’d spell out what the team really needs and is really willing to move.
Needs/Potential Upgrades:
Capable to good backup PG (rather urgent) Upgrade at the starting PF spot (not urgent) Upgrade at the starting SG spot (speculative, by me) Bench shooting (urgency unknown, because of Ivey’s slow return and Beasley in legal limbo)
Spoiler:
The biggest issue is we don’t have a backup PG, unless you really believe in Daniss Jenkins, which seems too risky. Ivey is hurt, but not a PG. Sasser is hurt, but not a PG. We’re making do with Jenkins, Ausar and Caris, but that’s inexperience, non-shooter, and doesn’t really run the offense respectively.
There’s talk about getting in on Lauri or JJJ, but I have no idea if the FO is ready yet to commit the kind of trade assets it would take to pry either loose. Are there other options out there, maybe that aren’t good enough to supplant Tobias yet, but that could provide quality bench minutes? Shooters preferred.
The SG thing is just me speculating. It’s Ivey’s job if he can get healthy, but we’ll need to see what the defense looks like with him out there. It’s been much shakier in the past, and this team is built on defense, rebounding and running in transition. Holland may have a claim on the spot long term, but that’s still up in the air, too. Beasley would sure help, but who knows. Are there guys out there to start at SG now that fit? Duncan Robinson is fine, we need the shooting, but again, bad defense.
Available/Not Available:
We obviously aren’t trading Cade. We aren’t trading Stewart, either. Duren seems very unlikely, given how the season is going. I doubt Ausar is available, but I can’t be entirely sure of that. He’s such an odd player.
I love Holland, but I have to think he’s available in a bigger deal. Ivey seems like he’d be available, as rough as that is, because the team has done so well in his absence. We have all our first round picks and some extra future seconds, certainly available in right trade. Salary filler in another month includes Robinson (basically an expiring), LeVert (one more year), and Tobias if we’re getting a better PF. You can also include Sasser, Reed and Lanier, I suppose.
What’s out there?
My view: I'm not really interested in PF upgrades in DET at all until and unless the glaring hole at backup PG is addressed. I feel like we cover the non-Cade minutes with scotch tape and string, and I just don't think what we are doing in the non-Cade minutes is sustainable. Another factor is that, while current-day Tobias is a non-star, he works really well with DET's current roster and provides a ton of intangibles.
That said, if we address our issues at G, I agree that Randle would be an excellent upgrade on Harris, and a promising fit from a playing style perspective. Randle is a substantially better player (duh!) than Harris and is on a contract with 2 more years after this season at 20% of the cap -- which would leave us enough financial room in the summer to make decisions on the Duren and Ivey extensions without leaping into the tax world next season.
I also agree that Randle is a far better target than AD or Markkahanen. As for Siakam, I'd have to feel like we had completely resolved our guard issues because he costs 30% of the cap. (Siakam is a better player than Randle, but Randle is a better value/fit.) I feel like I have to care about the money because I have no idea if our ownership will actually pay luxury tax before we've won a single playoff series, and Pascal is paid enough so means we'd be a tax-paying team next season, or maybe even this season, which risks owner HGores blowing up a promising young team because they got too aggressive too soon.
Obviously, MIN does not want what DET would be offering: expiring filler (Harris @ $26.6M), some financial relief, FRPs. Now the easy part: find a third team that is willing to offer up the startign PG that MIN needs for the draft compensation that DET would be willing to give up.
In a no-win argument, the first poster to Let It Go will at least retain some peace of mind
Godaddycurse wrote: I would do this for paul reed, but not jones
As you may recall I follow both teams. I've got Paul Reed and Mamu as roughly equal in value; Isaac Jones and Orlando Robinson are similar tier, borderline NBA/GLeague guys; Agbaji is in a tier between that i.e. he's not a scrub, but he's not playing a significant role and might not ever.
I don't think Agbaji holds much value on his contract -- certainly not Paul Reed level value -- and if the trade becomes Agbaji+SRPs for Reed, I just don't see the point for DET
The major value for TOR is ducking the tax. I think Agbaji is good enough for another team to look at him as worth it for a guy who doesn't/shouldn't play, but really no more than that. If TOR cares about who it gets back, then Agbaji is purely neutral fill and TOR needs to both (1) kick in more value as well as (2) target a C or C/PF who is available
eh i rather spend a 2nd(s) if needed to attach to agbaji to fill a roster hole than get back random fillers. maybe if a 3rd team prefers detroit fillers more this could work
Assuming the Grizzlies rip it apart, send Klintman to the Grizzlies and Landale goes to Toronto
Toronto gets a depth big for little investment. Grizzlies take a chance on Klintman
Sounds like a ten minutes to the TDL expiring kind of trade though
tmorgan wrote:I know you two can’t let the other thread go and are trying to be funny for each other, but Detroit is second in the NBA in blocks per game, and, last I checked, first or second in the league in defensive field goal percentage in the paint.
So yeah, we’re good on rim protection.
It’s a good thread and well thought out imo. Detroit has a lot going positive short and long term. I do think they should pounce and make a move if the opportunity arises. This is as good a year as any to make a run at winning the east. They have a star, good defenders up front and some nice role players and depth. Part of me thinks they shouldn’t make a big move and just keep building through the draft and developing, but another part thinks it’s time to make a big splash and go for it.
tmorgan wrote:I know you two can’t let the other thread go and are trying to be funny for each other, but Detroit is second in the NBA in blocks per game, and, last I checked, first or second in the league in defensive field goal percentage in the paint.
So yeah, we’re good on rim protection.
It’s a good thread and well thought out imo. Detroit has a lot going positive short and long term. I do think they should pounce and make a move if the opportunity arises. This is as good a year as any to make a run at winning the east. They have a star, good defenders up front and some nice role players and depth. Part of me thinks they shouldn’t make a big move and just keep building through the draft and developing, but another part thinks it’s time to make a big splash and go for it.
A lot of it depends on what assets the FO uses to make a splash. I'm fine using financial flexibility ($18M below the tax line, TPEs) and some draft capital. I'm not fine with moving off of recent lottery picks who are on their rookie contracts and still improving (don't sell early). I don't want to see DET ship out multiple FRPs for a player who may not start/close games.
I personally like to see a team win at least 1 playoff round before any kind of "all-in" move too -- although if the price is low enough for a PF upgrade I'd go for it. Cade has come back after a taste of the playoffs looking stronger and more determined and deserves the FOs support.
In a no-win argument, the first poster to Let It Go will at least retain some peace of mind
YayBasketball wrote:What would be the Langdon's offer to get Murphy from the Pels? Langdon drafted him, and he fits perfectly into the Pistons new team. Obviously, Pels value him highly, but maybe they consider a really big offer that helps re-stock the asset chest to rebuild around Fears and Queen.
Holland and Ivey is a salary match. How many picks does DET add there? Could even expand it to include Alvarado, another Langdon find. (One more small contract would have to be added, like Sasser).
DET gets: Murphy + Alvarado + Hawkins + Looney
NOP gets: Holland + Ivey + Robinson + Sasser + '26 DET 1st (unp.) + '27 DET swap + '28 DET 1st (unp.) + '28 DET swap + '29 1st (top-10 prot.)
Pistons make a push for being a sustainable contender, pushing some chips in to get a great fitting core player on their timeline, Murphy. They also get a backup energy PG to help give Cade a rest during the regular season. Maybe Hawkins can be elevated in this new system.
Pels pivot to rebuilding around their young core Fears and Queen. With Zion's trade value tanked, they take the opportunity to reset with trading Murphy. Holland brings the toughness and potential at the wing, Ivey could be special and could be re-signed at a discount with his recent stretch of injuries. Robinson gives a mostly expiring contract who can help get a few more wins this year. The focus is the future picks, which could be low-value with how young and good the Pistons are. But it's worth a swing.
tmorgan wrote:I know you two can’t let the other thread go and are trying to be funny for each other, but Detroit is second in the NBA in blocks per game, and, last I checked, first or second in the league in defensive field goal percentage in the paint.
So yeah, we’re good on rim protection.
It’s a good thread and well thought out imo. Detroit has a lot going positive short and long term. I do think they should pounce and make a move if the opportunity arises. This is as good a year as any to make a run at winning the east. They have a star, good defenders up front and some nice role players and depth. Part of me thinks they shouldn’t make a big move and just keep building through the draft and developing, but another part thinks it’s time to make a big splash and go for it.
A lot of it depends on what assets the FO uses to make a splash. I'm fine using financial flexibility ($18M below the tax line, TPEs) and some draft capital. I'm not fine with moving off of recent lottery picks who are on their rookie contracts and still improving (don't sell early). I don't want to see DET ship out multiple FRPs for a player who may not start/close games.
I personally like to see a team win at least 1 playoff round before any kind of "all-in" move too -- although if the price is low enough for a PF upgrade I'd go for it. Cade has come back after a taste of the playoffs looking stronger and more determined and deserves the FOs support.
Very reasonable and makes a ton of sense. As an outsider looking in I think obviously Cade, Duren and Thompson are your young core to build around. Robinson, Stewart, and Reed are great role players on good contracts. I think keep them as well. Ivey I am unsure about. Health issues…pending RFA. Holland and Green I am also unsure. Upside for sure but not quite coming together. I think you keep Holland unless it’s a really good opportunity. Harris is good salary ballast and to me a player you could upgrade. Long term they are in a good place so I think they don’t need to do anything huge…but if an opportunity presents itself maybe now is the time.
I wonder what it'd take to get Lou Dort. OKC has a roster crunch and are going to have to move on from someone at some point. If Dort is the odd man out, I'd love to scoop him up for the right price.
Kalamazoo317 wrote:I wonder what it'd take to get Lou Dort. OKC has a roster crunch and are going to have to move on from someone at some point. If Dort is the odd man out, I'd love to scoop him up for the right price.
it wouldn't be Dort that they are moving on from unless its a big overpay
Isaiah Joe would be the other one I'd look at. What would folks consider a fair price for Dort and what would they consider an "overpay" necessary to get him?
I can’t see them trading Dort, he’s coming off an injury and in his prime. Joe would be a good pickup. And if I could buy low on Kenrich Williams when he gets healthy, I would strongly consider that. Beyond that the Thunders players I feel would cost too much (they’re loaded with assets, they’re not trading good/key players for anything that’s not an overpay) or someone like Dieng, who would need to go to a team like Charlotte or Indiana so he could get a real chance at proving he belongs
I don’t think we will move Dort this season . Title defence and all. For Joe what are you offering ? We probably wouldn’t mind swap for a bigger sharpshooter who is less sharp but provide more defense . Less likely to get benched in the playoffs .
MoneyTalks41890 wrote:No I’m myopic and shortsighted and I want my pile of draft picks.
meekrab wrote:Nothing Jerry Rein$dorf loves more than a visit from Cash Considerations.
The offer would probably have to be Ivey and draft capital, which doesn't sound like what you're looking for. Ivey would be expiring, so there'd be cap relief there at least.
