Are people lower on Cooper Flagg?

[TheGeneral99]

He looks good to me, when you watch him play you can see he has the physical attributes, the talent and the work-ethic. His size, speed, length, all elite. He's obviously still a bit raw, but I don't have doubts he'll be a perennial all-star. It may not be in year 2, but I think by year 3 or 4, he'll be a star.

His team is absolute garbage, he has bad shooters around him, AD and Lively have been hurt, and I have never been a fan of Kidd as a coach. He's been thrust into a PG position to accelerate his development but his handles aren't great yet.

[Zukkoyaki]

I feel like the disappointment is the result of people completely misunderstanding Flagg as a prospect. The appeal was his extremely high floor. Someone who will at worst be a great defender while not a bum on offense. Solid glue guy material at minimum. He wasn't expected to come in and dominate from the jump.

[dhsilv2]

Luka through November 14th

19.1 pts
4 TOV
4.2 AST
6.4 TRB
12.8 GmSc
-99.6 on the court
eFG 55.1%

Remember the dumb scouting on Luka was that he was about as NBA ready as anyone ever, but didn't have upside (wild I know).

Flagg

15.1 pts
2.3 TOV
3.3 AST
6.8 TRB
11.2 GmSc
-118 on the court
eFG 46.5

So sure Flagg isn't doing what Luka did, but Luka didn't exactly come out on fire either.

[ryan in Maine]

Won't blame Cooper Flagg for the sins of Jason Kidd. There's not many coaches historically who would pull a stunt like this with such a prospect.

[tsherkin]

I feel like the disappointment is the result of people completely misunderstanding Flagg as a prospect. The appeal was his extremely high floor. Someone who will at worst be a great defender while not a bum on offense. Solid glue guy material at minimum. He wasn't expected to come in and dominate from the jump.

Again, though, even guys who would later dominate didn't do so as rookies. They looked highly rough and mortal, and were also given more freedom to create for themselves in the process.

[nate33]

Yeah, Flagg stinks. Dallas should trade him to the Wizards. We will give you anyone on the team except Sarr. You can have Kyshawn George, Coulibaly and Tre Johnson and we will take all of your bad contracts.

[Archx]

Luka through November 14th

19.1 pts
4 TOV
4.2 AST
6.4 TRB
12.8 GmSc
-99.6 on the court
eFG 55.1%

Remember the dumb scouting on Luka was that he was about as NBA ready as anyone ever, but didn't have upside (wild I know).

Flagg

15.1 pts
2.3 TOV
3.3 AST
6.8 TRB
11.2 GmSc
-118 on the court
eFG 46.5

So sure Flagg isn't doing what Luka did, but Luka didn't exactly come out on fire either.

Problem at that time was DSJ who was suppose to still be their primary PG. And also that team was filled with more or less washed up veterans which resulted in the mid season fire sell.

Coop has been drafted into a much better team but it lacks a proper playmaker to function. If given the keys, i think his stats would go up but he might still struggle because he's also a different player. It's not exactly apples to apples comparisons what i am trying to say.

[Jadoogar]

Coops situation reminds me of Cade's. Drafted to a team with many problems that wasn't built around him yet, while the other players drafted around him have better starts to their career.

After a while this Kyrie/AD stuff will end, and they'll be able to start building something around Coop. Also, he's 18, his window for improvement is vast. I think in 2-3 years Coop will be an all star.

yea this is a good comparison. The team isn't built to maximize his strengths.
this point guard stuff is likely going to help in the long run but right now, he's going through the growing pains.

That said, he's still averaging:
15.1 ppg (3rd among rookies, VJ dropping fast)
6.8 rpg (2nd)
3.3 apg (3rd, basically 2nd because Harper only played 6 games)
42 FG% (not good but again, better than VJ)
28.6 3pt (this is the biggest area for improvement, maybe it gets better with a real point guard)
82.5 FT% (shows he can be a good shooter)

I still think he wins ROY

[dhsilv2]

Luka through November 14th

19.1 pts
4 TOV
4.2 AST
6.4 TRB
12.8 GmSc
-99.6 on the court
eFG 55.1%

Remember the dumb scouting on Luka was that he was about as NBA ready as anyone ever, but didn't have upside (wild I know).

Flagg

15.1 pts
2.3 TOV
3.3 AST
6.8 TRB
11.2 GmSc
-118 on the court
eFG 46.5

So sure Flagg isn't doing what Luka did, but Luka didn't exactly come out on fire either.

Problem at that time was DSJ who was suppose to still be their primary PG. And also that team was filled with more or less washed up veterans which resulted in the mid season fire sell.

Coop has been drafted into a much better team but it lacks a proper playmaker to function. If given the keys, i think his stats would go up but he might still struggle because he's also a different player. It's not exactly apples to apples comparisons what i am trying to say.

I mean to start with Coop is being asked to run the point which isn't something he's really done. And it's hard to become a point in the NBA. But beyond that, here are the BPM's and PER's of the Mav's players this year in order by minutes played outside of Flagg.

12.5 -2.4
12.6 -0.2
14.3 -0.5
12.7 -2.7
6.8 -4.9
14.4 -2.0
23.3 4.0
18.9 0.7
7.9 -5.0

Outside of AD and Gafford who are 8th and 9th in total minutes for the team. The rest of the team is grading out as below average players. This isn't a team that's playing better really in any sense.

[Archx]

Luka through November 14th

19.1 pts
4 TOV
4.2 AST
6.4 TRB
12.8 GmSc
-99.6 on the court
eFG 55.1%

Remember the dumb scouting on Luka was that he was about as NBA ready as anyone ever, but didn't have upside (wild I know).

Flagg

15.1 pts
2.3 TOV
3.3 AST
6.8 TRB
11.2 GmSc
-118 on the court
eFG 46.5

So sure Flagg isn't doing what Luka did, but Luka didn't exactly come out on fire either.

Problem at that time was DSJ who was suppose to still be their primary PG. And also that team was filled with more or less washed up veterans which resulted in the mid season fire sell.

Coop has been drafted into a much better team but it lacks a proper playmaker to function. If given the keys, i think his stats would go up but he might still struggle because he's also a different player. It's not exactly apples to apples comparisons what i am trying to say.

I mean to start with Coop is being asked to run the point which isn't something he's really done. And it's hard to become a point in the NBA. But beyond that, here are the BPM's and PER's of the Mav's players this year in order by minutes played outside of Flagg.

12.5 -2.4
12.6 -0.2
14.3 -0.5
12.7 -2.7
6.8 -4.9
14.4 -2.0
23.3 4.0
18.9 0.7
7.9 -5.0

Outside of AD and Gafford who are 8th and 9th in total minutes for the team. The rest of the team is grading out as below average players. This isn't a team that's playing better really in any sense.

Yeah because this team was specifically built for a certain player. And Mavs are witnessing first hand what is it like if you don't have that specific player on the team.
Just look at their lobs for example in their playoff run. This stat was before finals; Mavs 54 lob dunks, all other teams combined 59. And now Mavs miss that as well.

But like i said, if they had at least a proper PG that could organize their offense, they could still look a lot better, including Coop, who was put in a very bad spot from the start by Kidd.

[dhsilv2]

Problem at that time was DSJ who was suppose to still be their primary PG. And also that team was filled with more or less washed up veterans which resulted in the mid season fire sell.

Coop has been drafted into a much better team but it lacks a proper playmaker to function. If given the keys, i think his stats would go up but he might still struggle because he's also a different player. It's not exactly apples to apples comparisons what i am trying to say.

I mean to start with Coop is being asked to run the point which isn't something he's really done. And it's hard to become a point in the NBA. But beyond that, here are the BPM's and PER's of the Mav's players this year in order by minutes played outside of Flagg.

12.5 -2.4
12.6 -0.2
14.3 -0.5
12.7 -2.7
6.8 -4.9
14.4 -2.0
23.3 4.0
18.9 0.7
7.9 -5.0

Outside of AD and Gafford who are 8th and 9th in total minutes for the team. The rest of the team is grading out as below average players. This isn't a team that's playing better really in any sense.

Yeah because this team was specifically built for a certain player. And Mavs are witnessing first hand what is it like if you don't have that specific player on the team.

But like i said, if they had at least a proper PG that could organize their offense, they could still look a lot better, including Coop, who was put in a very bad spot from the start by Kidd.

I don't see the point of your prior post then. Both flagg and luka are being put on a team that's not very good and through november 14th they're not really crushing it, but Luka was a bit better as expected since he was expected to come out the gate better as he was a pro player prior to the nba.

[FrodoBaggins]

Luka was also nearly a year older, too.

[Archx]

I mean to start with Coop is being asked to run the point which isn't something he's really done. And it's hard to become a point in the NBA. But beyond that, here are the BPM's and PER's of the Mav's players this year in order by minutes played outside of Flagg.

12.5 -2.4
12.6 -0.2
14.3 -0.5
12.7 -2.7
6.8 -4.9
14.4 -2.0
23.3 4.0
18.9 0.7
7.9 -5.0

Outside of AD and Gafford who are 8th and 9th in total minutes for the team. The rest of the team is grading out as below average players. This isn't a team that's playing better really in any sense.

Yeah because this team was specifically built for a certain player. And Mavs are witnessing first hand what is it like if you don't have that specific player on the team.

But like i said, if they had at least a proper PG that could organize their offense, they could still look a lot better, including Coop, who was put in a very bad spot from the start by Kidd.

I don't see the point of your prior post then. Both flagg and luka are being put on a team that's not very good and through november 14th they're not really crushing it, but Luka was a bit better as expected since he was expected to come out the gate better as he was a pro player prior to the nba.

You quoted a bit too fast, i added a line before that

My point is, Coop looks worse because this team was not built for him. ESPN just posted an article with NBA execs believing Mavs would look a lot better with a proper PG, which is obviously true. They lack an elite playmaker to tie everything together on offense because defense was never even a problem in the first place. So if you put an 18yo rookie in that position like KIdd has, the rookie will obviously look bad and the team as well. It's not a bad team and Coop will be incredible in few years but Mavs need to rebuild around Coop to maximize his potential. This is almost identical team to the finals run team PLUS Klay/Christie if you think about it. But Kyrie is injured and Luka is gone. So it's really not a bad team overall.

[3ddman23]

The kid has legit skill but I never saw him as an alpha dog MVP generation guy(not sure how people saw that). I think his best case scenario is something like Jason tatum. All star all potential all nba guy but never an absolute super star, LeBron, curry, giannis, wemby type of guy.

[dhsilv2]

Yeah because this team was specifically built for a certain player. And Mavs are witnessing first hand what is it like if you don't have that specific player on the team.

But like i said, if they had at least a proper PG that could organize their offense, they could still look a lot better, including Coop, who was put in a very bad spot from the start by Kidd.

I don't see the point of your prior post then. Both flagg and luka are being put on a team that's not very good and through november 14th they're not really crushing it, but Luka was a bit better as expected since he was expected to come out the gate better as he was a pro player prior to the nba.

You quoted a bit too fast, i added a line before that

My point is, Coop looks worse because this team was not built for him. ESPN just posted an article with NBA execs believing Mavs would look a lot better with a proper PG, which is obviously true. They lack an elite playmaker to tie everything together on offense because defense was never even a problem in the first place. So if you put an 18yo rookie in that position like KIdd has, the rookie will obviously look bad and the team as well. It's not a bad team and Coop will be incredible in few years but Mavs need to rebuild around Coop to maximize his potential. This is almost identical team to the finals run team PLUS Klay/Christie if you think about it. But Kyrie is injured and Luka is gone. So it's really not a bad team overall.

If a team "looks bad" because they are lacking something. I think it's fair to just call them bad. You can say they have some good pieces that don't fit. But that's just a nice way of saying bad. Similarly, when a team fits really well and it's "better than the sum of the parts". That's just a good team.

[Archx]

I don't see the point of your prior post then. Both flagg and luka are being put on a team that's not very good and through november 14th they're not really crushing it, but Luka was a bit better as expected since he was expected to come out the gate better as he was a pro player prior to the nba.

You quoted a bit too fast, i added a line before that

My point is, Coop looks worse because this team was not built for him. ESPN just posted an article with NBA execs believing Mavs would look a lot better with a proper PG, which is obviously true. They lack an elite playmaker to tie everything together on offense because defense was never even a problem in the first place. So if you put an 18yo rookie in that position like KIdd has, the rookie will obviously look bad and the team as well. It's not a bad team and Coop will be incredible in few years but Mavs need to rebuild around Coop to maximize his potential. This is almost identical team to the finals run team PLUS Klay/Christie if you think about it. But Kyrie is injured and Luka is gone. So it's really not a bad team overall.

If a team "looks bad" because they are lacking something. I think it's fair to just call them bad. You can say they have some good pieces that don't fit. But that's just a nice way of saying bad. Similarly, when a team fits really well and it's "better than the sum of the parts". That's just a good team.

Yeah you can also say like that, i think that's a fair way to put it. But it is hard to correctly judge them because we know they could be so much better and even if you say, some "good" pieces don't fit, i would still argue it's a good team. They could just start winning out of the blue and then it's suddenly a good team.

[LockoutSeason]

Flagg doesn’t turn 19 until late December. What were you expecting from an 18 year old out of the gate? Is anyone really even down on him?

Go check LeBron’s first 12 games and compare them to Cooper’s. Pretty much the same.

[hauntedcomputer]

Looks like he can be the third-best player on a championship team. Maybe second. He's not breaking the game or anything but he's already improving.

Draft class turning out better than people were thinking. Except Dumars, who knows.

[levon]

Needs a jumper and a few years and he'll be a top 10 player in the league year after year. Overhyped though

[tsherkin]

Needs a jumper and a few years and he'll be a top 10 player in the league year after year. Overhyped though

Has a jumper. Needs it to start falling. He was using it all through college. It's a dozen games into his season, though, and it's tough to be a teenage rookie. Even Durant struggled with his shot as a rookie, and he's an ATG shooter.