Trae Young is Ridiculously Underrated

[HMFFL]

Hawks have had top 10 offenses and bottom 5 defenses in a lot of Trae Young seasons... What are you even talking about? Keep cherry picking FG% and turnovers per season. It's a terrible argument.

Two players shot 100 3-pointers on the team.

Anything I said is releveant to offense so how is it a terrible argument? Field goal % and such is no longer releveant?

What the Hawks did great at last season was scoring in the paint. Top 5

Feel free to elaborate if you want to prove a point.

Since the Hawks’ ECF run, the numbers pretty much spell out what the real issue has been. Defensively, they’ve ranked 26th in 2021–22, 23rd in 2022–23, 27th in 2023–24, and only improved to 19th last season.

On the other side of the ball, the offense has consistently been strong: #2 in offensive efficiency in 2021–22, #6 in 2022–23, 11th in 2023–24 (and actually #7 before Trae went down), before dipping to #18 last season.

So what looks like the bigger problem here? It’s clearly not the offense. And no, I don’t care about FG% or turnovers for an extremely high-usage player who also lead the league in assists and is also 3rd ALL TIME in Apg. That’s missing the forest for the trees...

I look at everything.
Trae is on the team I support.
However, since FG%, and turnovers mean nothing to you, I guess we have nothing to discuss.

[Celts17Pride]

If Hawks fans are happy with Trae defence and his career 43.2 % FG then all the power to them.

This is really what it all comes down to, so be it.

[NDaATL]

To expand, from 2020-2024 the Hawks averaged top 6 in offensive efficiency. Those were not super talented teams and had no all-stars except for Trae. Last year we were the youngest team in the NBA, JJ goes down after 35 games, we started a rookie, a washed Capela, and Dyson Daniels, traded Hunter and Bogi and we finished #20 in offense so I'm going to let that one slide. We didn't even try to compete last year and had no shooters.

This year the Hawks are #20 in offensive efficiency. #5 in defensive efficiency. The offense without Trae isn't anywhere close to good enough to compete. And we have been extremely hot from 3 in the last few games which isn't sustainable. Our turnover rate is terrible without Trae also.

We need the boost of Trae's offense. It's very possible that Trae returns and this team jumps into the top 10 (possibly top 5) offensively. The defense will regress some but there is so much potential for offensive improvement.

It's entirely possible that we have built the perfect team around him and his return could take us to the next level.

It's also possible that he returns and the team falls apart. If that happens we will likely move him in the offseason.

[Old_Blue]

Trae Young is closer to Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf than he is to Steph Curry.

[Ball4life32]

Two players shot 100 3-pointers on the team.

Anything I said is releveant to offense so how is it a terrible argument? Field goal % and such is no longer releveant?

What the Hawks did great at last season was scoring in the paint. Top 5

Feel free to elaborate if you want to prove a point.

Since the Hawks’ ECF run, the numbers pretty much spell out what the real issue has been. Defensively, they’ve ranked 26th in 2021–22, 23rd in 2022–23, 27th in 2023–24, and only improved to 19th last season.

On the other side of the ball, the offense has consistently been strong: #2 in offensive efficiency in 2021–22, #6 in 2022–23, 11th in 2023–24 (and actually #7 before Trae went down), before dipping to #18 last season.

So what looks like the bigger problem here? It’s clearly not the offense. And no, I don’t care about FG% or turnovers for an extremely high-usage player who also lead the league in assists and is also 3rd ALL TIME in Apg. That’s missing the forest for the trees...

I look at everything.
Trae is on the team I support.
However, since FG%, and turnovers mean nothing to you, I guess we have nothing to discuss.

You’re focusing on two specific stats, but those end up becoming the whole argument. I’d rather look at the full picture of the team’s overall offense and defense instead of relying on a couple of isolated numbers.

Trae has led the league in turnovers before, yet the Hawks have still been a bottom-three turnover team overall. So those individual stats don’t really reflect what’s happening at the team level.

When you look at everything together, the bigger picture tells a different story than just those cherry-picked categories.

[FarBeyondDriven]

Trae's issue is he is actually a better shooter off-the bounce but due to his height and lack of athleticism this requires him to shoot from much deeper than his coaches (and maybe he) is comfortable doing. If you watched him in college he played exactly like he does now but he had no problem taking logo threes and deeper threes in general. I think his form doing so just works better for him and is more natural. Trying to force him to take more contested threes or C&S threes isn't playing to his strength.

He wasn't an elite shooter from that distance but he was better than he is now. I believe that threat spread the floor which aided his creativity since he was so quick and could blow by guys if they contested. He just seems like 80% of the player he could be because that part of his game has been stymied whether that was self-imposed or by coaching.

Playing that style, surrounded by 3 and D players and a rim-running center is how he can lead a team to the Finals. The problem is that's a lot to ask to overcome his major flaws i.e. size/athleticism/defense and being a two-level scorer. It's more than you need to ask from most other star's supporting casts. Same degree of flaws a guy like Gobert has. He needs a 3 next to him that can shoot threes so the lane isn't clogged. Then he needs perimeter defenders that can take away other team's three point shooting because he himself can't defend out there. And when they do there's times when they'll lose contain and allow guys to drive past them at which point Gobert is there supplying the shot-blocking he's elite at which makes all the other concessions worth it. Sabonis needs a shot blocking 4 to protect the paint since he can't. He also needs a slashing point guard he can run a two-man game with and finally three point shooting wings to provide the spacing since he doesn't. There's a reason why the team's for these players fail to win championships. They need specific things around them to succeed. So far, the Wolves have done the best job which is why they're a legit championship contender with Gobert.

[HMFFL]

Since the Hawks’ ECF run, the numbers pretty much spell out what the real issue has been. Defensively, they’ve ranked 26th in 2021–22, 23rd in 2022–23, 27th in 2023–24, and only improved to 19th last season.

On the other side of the ball, the offense has consistently been strong: #2 in offensive efficiency in 2021–22, #6 in 2022–23, 11th in 2023–24 (and actually #7 before Trae went down), before dipping to #18 last season.

So what looks like the bigger problem here? It’s clearly not the offense. And no, I don’t care about FG% or turnovers for an extremely high-usage player who also lead the league in assists and is also 3rd ALL TIME in Apg. That’s missing the forest for the trees...

I look at everything.
Trae is on the team I support.
However, since FG%, and turnovers mean nothing to you, I guess we have nothing to discuss.

You’re focusing on two specific stats, but those end up becoming the whole argument. I’d rather look at the full picture of the team’s overall offense and defense instead of relying on a couple of isolated numbers.

Trae has led the league in turnovers before, yet the Hawks have still been a bottom-three turnover team overall. So those individual stats don’t really reflect what’s happening at the team level.

When you look at everything together, the bigger picture tells a different story than just those cherry-picked categories.

Anything Trae does, positive, or negative, is a reflection of the team overall. He has been the Hawks #1 option and he has failed miserably at it.

[Ball4life32]

And they are 221-267 with Trae in his career.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=trae+young+win+loss+record+since+2018-19

Hawks also tanked hard in his first two years as you see by the early records. 20-23 seasons hawks were much with Trae (they had better win % with him than w/o him) and no surprise those are his best seasons by the analytics. He has trended down as a scorer the last couple seasons unfortunately. His passing is still elite and trended up through.

You're the one who brought up the career win loss record. If you're going to invalidate any meaning to the win loss record for when Trae is in the lineup then you effectively invalidate any meaning to your post about the Hawks record without him in the lineup.

Sorry, I should’ve clarified that the Hawks actually had a better win percentage with Trae than without him in those seasons. Much better on/off with him as well. Pointing to the overall career record doesn’t really validate anything either, since it doesn’t account for context.

[NDaATL]

Since the Hawks’ ECF run, the numbers pretty much spell out what the real issue has been. Defensively, they’ve ranked 26th in 2021–22, 23rd in 2022–23, 27th in 2023–24, and only improved to 19th last season.

On the other side of the ball, the offense has consistently been strong: #2 in offensive efficiency in 2021–22, #6 in 2022–23, 11th in 2023–24 (and actually #7 before Trae went down), before dipping to #18 last season.

So what looks like the bigger problem here? It’s clearly not the offense. And no, I don’t care about FG% or turnovers for an extremely high-usage player who also lead the league in assists and is also 3rd ALL TIME in Apg. That’s missing the forest for the trees...

I look at everything.
Trae is on the team I support.
However, since FG%, and turnovers mean nothing to you, I guess we have nothing to discuss.

You’re focusing on two specific stats, but those end up becoming the whole argument. I’d rather look at the full picture of the team’s overall offense and defense instead of relying on a couple of isolated numbers.

Trae has led the league in turnovers before, yet the Hawks have still been a bottom-three turnover team overall. So those individual stats don’t really reflect what’s happening at the team level.

When you look at everything together, the bigger picture tells a different story than just those cherry-picked categories.

We've beaten some crappy teams without him. Good for us. We are just lucky we've been super hot from 3. That isn't sustainable and yet we are still only a top 20 offensive team. We need a major boost offensively if we are going to make any kind of run this year.

The team turnover rate is WAY higher without him than with him. He does turn the ball over but the team turnover rate is much lower which indicates a hugely positive impact.

At this point I'm not sure if the team will be better with or without Trae. But we need a larger sample size with him and without him with this squad first. He needs a proper chance with this team. It's the first time we've built a proper team around him in 5 years. We will get that this season once he returns and we can decide this offseason what to do.

[Ball4life32]

Trae Young is closer to Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf than he is to Steph Curry.

He doesn't play like either. Trae's best attribute is playmaking and he still gets compared to scoring guards.

[HMFFL]

What mid range game? He stopped focusing on that.

Depends on how you define "mid-range." But he took over 14% of his total shot volume (or in the neighborhood of 2.5 FGA/g) just from 10-15 feet, and that was right at about his normal career proportion. This year is his third consecutive season shooting under 11% of his total volume on long twos, perhaps that's what you meant? But he was up over 21% last year and is over 24% this year in terms of shots generated from 3-10 feet (what I'd call "short" game, but could easily be categorized as mid-range). And that's above his career averages.

So again, it depends a little on how you label things.

Shot a career low in 2pt % last season.

Yep. Long twos and finishing at the rim were pretty rough for him. 3-16 feet, though, above his career averages.

Having the ability to dunk is NEVER irrelevant even if a player can finish in other ways. Dunking is another tool to score easy points. This should be common sense.

I mean, it's an aesthetic more than anything else. Trae is a notably poor finisher at the rim, but it isn't simply because he can't dunk. It didn't stop Stockton from finishing relatively well there, for example.

Player looks in the mirror in grade school "God, please don't give me the ability to dunk, because I want scoring to be more difficult. I like less options"

Said nobody!

Sure, but that's just rhetorical play. The ability to dunk isn't the point; the ability to finish the shot is relevant. And whether it's a layup or a dunk is ultimately immaterial. Trae's problems go well beyond not dunking. He's had multiple seasons shooting 59% or better inside the RA without dunking once... which still isn't great, but it's him worsening from there while also losing his 3 which is the problem. Not that he can't dunk.

Mid range should be common knowledge. Define it as you want if you need too. I don't need to think too hard about it.

And it's a good thing dunking was relevant to Iverson, or else, well tsherkin, you would dislike him even more. Those easy points wouldn't have been so easy for him.

[MrBigShot]

The issue with Trae is that he is really good, but he's not good enough to be the centerpiece of a team that can win a championship.

LeBron, in his prime at least, would warp his team's playstyle around the way he likes to play, and for guys like Love & Bosh it made it more difficult sometimes to get acclimated offensively. But it's worth it because he gave you a chance to contend.

Trae has to play a heliocentric style to really get the most out of him. He'd probably be more appreciated if he got to play with someone like Giannis.

[tsherkin]

Mid range should be common knowledge. Define it as you want if you need too. I don't need to think too hard about it.

I mean, I'm looking for common language so we don't speak past one another over semantics. Clearly, Trae is using the space away from the rim and inside the 3 a reasonable amount, but has been dropping off on long 2s. The two years prior to this one have seen him taking over 46% of his total shots from 3, and of course he hasn't been very good from there, which has caused issues.

And it's a good thing dunking was relevant to Iverson, or else, well tsherkin, you would dislike him even more.

I don't follow that statement. Iverson had four seasons where he ever dunked 10+ times. It wasn't relevant to him at all except in the earliest couple seasons of his career.

He was an insane athlete, but dunking was not a staple part of his game for the majority of his career, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[tsherkin]

The issue with Trae is that he is really good, but he's not good enough to be the centerpiece of a team that can win a championship.

Can't argue with you there, but Atlanta isn't near contention, so that seems less relevant to the moment. They'll eventually have to move on and find someone else, but that's sort of where most franchises are.

LeBron, in his prime at least, would warp his team's playstyle around the way he likes to play, and for guys like Love & Bosh it made it more difficult

Don't know that it made life that much more difficult for them so much as took away opportunities for them to shoot and dominate the ball, because Lebron was that much better than they were in that role.

Trae has to play a heliocentric style to really get the most out of him. He'd probably be more appreciated if he got to play with someone like Giannis.

He certainly shoots a lot, but he also likes to pass and he's very good at it. And he's been laboring on some fairly mediocre teams for a while, too. So I am hopeful of seeing him operate for more than a handful of games with this current crew, because it's the best team Atlanta has fielded in years.

[kg01]

The issue with Trae is that he is really good, but he's not good enough to be the centerpiece of a team that can win a championship.

Can't argue with you there, but Atlanta isn't near contention, so that seems less relevant to the moment. They'll eventually have to move on and find someone else, but that's sort of where most franchises are.

LeBron, in his prime at least, would warp his team's playstyle around the way he likes to play, and for guys like Love & Bosh it made it more difficult

Don't know that it made life that much more difficult for them so much as took away opportunities for them to shoot and dominate the ball, because Lebron was that much better than they were in that role.

Trae has to play a heliocentric style to really get the most out of him. He'd probably be more appreciated if he got to play with someone like Giannis.

He certainly shoots a lot, but he also likes to pass and he's very good at it. And he's been laboring on some fairly mediocre teams for a while, too. So I am hopeful of seeing him operate for more than a handful of games with this current crew, because it's the best team Atlanta has fielded in years.

Good points here.

Hawks fans have been clamoring for them to build a team that's not dependent on 11 to spoonfeed them. And have been begging for a roster that can make up for his lack of size. This year is the first time those things have happened, which is why they've done well in his absence.

Does it mean they're 'better without'? It's way early to say that especially if one actually looks beneath the surface of these wins. I'm happy, for sure, but there's some unsustainable stuff going on offensively rn. For example, Jalen Johnson put up a Wilt stat line, the team tied a team record for made 3's, but UTA was very much in that game until late.

Anyway, I want to see them vs teams with a pulse before making any grandsweeping conclusions.

[tsherkin]

Good points here.

Hawks fans have been clamoring for them to build a team that's not dependent on 11 to spoonfeed them. And have been begging for a roster that can make up for his lack of size. This year is the first time those things have happened, which is why they've done well in his absence.

Does it mean they're 'better without'? It's way early to say that especially if one actually looks beneath the surface of these wins. I'm happy, for sure, but there's some unsustainable stuff going on offensively rn. For example, Jalen Johnson put up a Wilt stat line, the team tied a team record for made 3's, but UTA was very much in that game until late.

Anyway, I want to see them vs teams with a pulse before making any grandsweeping conclusions.

Little wins, man. It's nice to see other guys doing well, and that the team is taking care of business. But as you say, I'd love to see him back and playing against a little bit of meatier competition. Especially in a season where BOS and IND are done for before they even began, right? So the options are a little more open than usual!

And for clarity, I don't mean to sound like I'm dismissing HMFFL's points. He has some valid ideas about Trae's various weaknesses and the upper bound of what Atlanta can do with him. I just want to see what Trae can do when he has more than the memory of Clint Capela and very little else as his major running mates, you know?

[kg01]

Good points here.

Hawks fans have been clamoring for them to build a team that's not dependent on 11 to spoonfeed them. And have been begging for a roster that can make up for his lack of size. This year is the first time those things have happened, which is why they've done well in his absence.

Does it mean they're 'better without'? It's way early to say that especially if one actually looks beneath the surface of these wins. I'm happy, for sure, but there's some unsustainable stuff going on offensively rn. For example, Jalen Johnson put up a Wilt stat line, the team tied a team record for made 3's, but UTA was very much in that game until late.

Anyway, I want to see them vs teams with a pulse before making any grandsweeping conclusions.

Little wins, man. It's nice to see other guys doing well, and that the team is taking care of business. But as you say, I'd love to see him back and playing against a little bit of meatier competition. Especially in a season where BOS and IND are done for before they even began, right? So the options are a little more open than usual!

And for clarity, I don't mean to sound like I'm dismissing HMFFL's points. He has some valid ideas about Trae's various weaknesses and the upper bound of what Atlanta can do with him. I just want to see what Trae can do when he has more than the memory of Clint Capela and very little else as his major running mates, you know?

Yep. We're on the same page.

And, dont get me wrong, there's definitely a Trae 'conversation' to be had. But it's funny that people have been wanting for him to not be the center of all things in Atlanta and, now that he finally doesn't have to be, the same folks are now screaming that they don't need him at all.

Well, now that the roster is better, let's see how they do together ... ya know, like every other team. Call me crazy.

[tsherkin]

Well, now that the roster is better, let's see how they do together ... ya know, like every other team. Call me crazy.

Exactly. We'll see how it goes when he comes back, and over the remainder of the time that he's out.

[xBulletproof]

I'm the OG Trae Young hater. Guys at work have called me Trae hater for years. They love him

Even before he missed games as he was healthy for a long time, I would tell ppl I'd expect they'd be similar with or without him. At this point they're 221-267 when he plays. 37-37 when he does not play. I thought it was even more obvious when they tested the trade waters last year and found there wasn't much interest. It's been kinda wild seeing people on social media starting to see it now.

I've never understood how a guy who shoots far below league average from the field and 3, turns the ball over a lot and doesn't play defense is a winning player in some peoples eyes. I see talking about team stats, and sure they score points, but that's about pace, not efficiency. In TS%, FG%, and eFG% they are essentially 17th at best in all of those the last 3 years. And I'm certain those %'s were all way above what Trae was contributing.

It would be interesting to have him on a team where he isn't the primary ball handler all the time and see how it goes, but I'm not sure his skill set is great for that either.

[Handlez]

Hawks doing work without Trae.

Damn.