Is Hakeem Olajuwon the most Complete all-around player All Time?

[tsherkin]

A requisite for this has to be being able to be a team's primary ball handler & playmaker. Hakeem is not that.

He is certainly ONE OF the most complete. But no way is he as complete an all around player as someone like LeBron for example.

He was definitely pretty complete as a big man. Two-way guy, had a mix of back-down and face-up ability, more range than many of his contemporaries, that kind of thing. But yeah, as far as breadth of game, he doesn't really come anywhere near a lot of guys. But that certainly didn't stop him from being incredible.

[Harry Palmer]

Question on two-way vs. all around, what part of all around doesn’t fit into one or both of the two ways?

[tsherkin]

Question on two-way vs. all around, what part of all around doesn’t fit into one or both of the two ways?

Value above the arc (ball-handling, shooting range), function as a primary playmaker and initiator. Olajuwon was LESS dependent on others to get him the ball because he had more spots and more mobility as a result of his handles and his range out to around 17 feet, but he certainly wasn't capable of doing all of those extra things.

Keeping in mind that this thread is about "all-time," he's getting compared to the best do-it-all players in the history of the game. But his impact wasn't from breadth of game so much as it was from being one of the best defenders in league history and having an offensive game very difficult to slow down even under playoff conditions.

[Daddy 801]

Hakeem shot 124 three point shots in his career. He made 25 of them for an effective field goal percentage of 20.2%. I will use the data that is available instead of what players do in practice.[/quote
The game was different than now it's easy to hit threes with all the spacing and no physicality you can't play defense without being called a foul and centers played different then give those older players more spacing their 3-point numbers would go up too.

I am an old head. I love Hakeen. He is one of the greatest all around players at his position. I watched Hakeem win those chips in real time. I realize the game has evolved. I realize that if he was drafted now he might be a better three point shooter. I am willing to give older players pre three point shooting era like a 4-5% bump in their percentages if they played now and practiced (we saw similar jumps in some players who played through the three point era) and yes some players would make an even larger jump than 4-5%. I am willing to give all of that as a possibility.

But the reality is we have the data we have. And he wasn't a good in game three point shooter. And the three point shot is so important that I don't think any bigman can be considered the best all around player unless they have that as part of their skillset.

You can disagree. But that's my take.

I'm an old head too. I remember how different the game was, but I believe if Hakeem as great as he was would have focused more on 3 pointers and it was a big deal then like today, I believe he would have been very good because look at how he improved his post moves on his own and came up with The Dream Shake that was him being more focused wanting to improve.

You could be right. But if we are adding hypotheticals to players we get to do that for all players and it becomes impossible to actually determine who is the best all around player is. If Hakeem got drafted now and added a 3 pointer to his game it obviously would push him to the very top of all around player, if not the best. But it didn't happen so it is what it is.

[og15]

The NBA uses those numbers as the most important and to be the only player to be in top 20 in 4 of 5 categories that The NBA considers the top factors in determining awards has to be complete all-around by their standards.

The NBA isn't making any statement on all round play, through that.

You're just injecting conclusions into the use of those standard stats that aren't being implied by that usage

The NBA uses those 5 stats as standards when determining awards. How am I injecting conclusions when most every player who won an award was at the top in at least 1 of those 5 categories that influenced their decision.

I don't believe it is possible to explain this to you any simpler than it is been, so seems like you have your head stuck in the sand, but you're still making a this and then that without any connection in the middle to get to the that.

Not much else I can add to explain here.

Question on two-way vs. all around, what part of all around doesn’t fit into one or both of the two ways?

A great two way player doesn't actually need to have all round skills on both sides, they can just be really good at the ones they do have.

You can be a very good offensive player without being that good as an initiator or even without having much range or even being a poor shooter. So on offense , you're not all round, but you are still a high impact offensive guy. You can be a great defensive player while for example not being able to switch out and contain on the perimeter. Like KG is a better all round defender than Mutombo type of thing, but Mutombo is still a great defender, just not all round.

So you can be a great two way player and not be the best all-round player. Yes, if you are the best all round player, you will be a great two way player also, but the vice versa doesn't have to be true.

[Lockdown504090]

For those saying lebron, What did he have it all? the shooting, defense playmaking, athelticism, finishing, resilience? not sure i could put my finger on it. Maybe 2014-2017? im gonna say 2017. he could shoot, he was 5 in dpoy voting. super athletic. teams werent backing up on him to give him space anymore.

[Common Sensei]

The NBA isn't making any statement on all round play, through that.

You're just injecting conclusions into the use of those standard stats that aren't being implied by that usage

The NBA uses those 5 stats as standards when determining awards. How am I injecting conclusions when most every player who won an award was at the top in at least 1 of those 5 categories that influenced their decision.

I don't believe it is possible to explain this to you any simpler than it is been, so seems like you have your head stuck in the sand, but you're still making a this and then that without any connection in the middle to get to the that.

Not much else I can add to explain here.

Then can you explain what your take on complete all-around player means to you and who do you believe is the best complete all-around player?

[Sofia]

Jamaal Tinsley had a 5x5 once, I guess he’s one of the greatest all around players of all time too.

[Common Sensei]

Jamaal Tinsley had a 5x5 once, I guess he’s one of the greatest all around players of all time too.

Hakeem Olajuwon had the most 5x5 games All-Time with 6.

[Sofia]

Jamaal Tinsley had a 5x5 once, I guess he’s one of the greatest all around players of all time too.

Hakeem Olajuwon had the most 5x5 games All-Time with 6.

Only a few more than the incredibly versatile Jusif Nurkic

[dhsilv2]

Common sense still says other than counting overall stats these threads are basically just opinions only. Overall stats vs opinions.

Yes, of course a discussion forum was created to share opinions. What does that have to do with how dumb listing just 5 stats from the box score is for this topic?

I wouldn't post someone's free throw percentage to answer if someone is a good defender. I also wouldn't post their blocks and steals alone as that doesn't tell me much either.

What would you replace in an NBA game box score after a game where it shows points, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals if you feel they don't matter or tell the whole picture then?

I don't think a box score is intended for that. Just like a fork isn't for soup. I legit don't understand why you'd ask that. Today we have countless added stats and metric. We have play by play data. We have cameras that capture ever play, every result, player speed, player distance. And we have on off data. The box score is just a quick little summary to give you a quick first glance. It isn't intended for who's the most complete player.

[dhsilv2]

Those box scores still have a major influence and impact on awards like MVP's and DPOY and other awards.

You aren't wrong, it just isn't relevant to the concept of "complete all-around player."

The NBA uses those numbers as the most important and to be the only player to be in top 20 in 4 of 5 categories that The NBA considers the top factors in determining awards has to be complete all-around by their standards.

Dude what are you drinking? And can I get some?

The NBA doesn't vote on awards. They have zero actual say. Sports writers are the ones voting and they're free to vote however they want. I'm just at a loss for words here. Do you follow the NBA?

[Common Sensei]

You aren't wrong, it just isn't relevant to the concept of "complete all-around player."

The NBA uses those numbers as the most important and to be the only player to be in top 20 in 4 of 5 categories that The NBA considers the top factors in determining awards has to be complete all-around by their standards.

Dude what are you drinking? And can I get some?

The NBA doesn't vote on awards. They have zero actual say. Sports writers are the ones voting and they're free to vote however they want. I'm just at a loss for words here. Do you follow the NBA?

Who cares the NBA uses box scores not the eye tests your talking about, and sports writers look at those leaders in those 5 categories to determine who wins those awards most of the time and advanced stats never tell the whole picture that's been proven so many times. Let me guess you're a Lebron James fan?

[dhsilv2]

The NBA uses those numbers as the most important and to be the only player to be in top 20 in 4 of 5 categories that The NBA considers the top factors in determining awards has to be complete all-around by their standards.

Dude what are you drinking? And can I get some?

The NBA doesn't vote on awards. They have zero actual say. Sports writers are the ones voting and they're free to vote however they want. I'm just at a loss for words here. Do you follow the NBA?

Who cares the NBA uses box scores not the eye tests your talking about, and sports writers look at those leaders in those 5 categories to determine who wins those awards most of the time and advanced stats never tell the whole picture that's been proven so many times. Let me guess you're a Lebron James fan?

How does the NBA use the box score? And why is the NBA investing tens of millions to have tens of thousands of stats beyond the box score? The NBA is the most anti box score organization there is kid.

And as for Lebron...maybe the goat. I can't stand him personally...on or off court. But please troll me harder baby!

[Common Sensei]

Dude what are you drinking? And can I get some?

The NBA doesn't vote on awards. They have zero actual say. Sports writers are the ones voting and they're free to vote however they want. I'm just at a loss for words here. Do you follow the NBA?

Who cares the NBA uses box scores not the eye tests your talking about, and sports writers look at those leaders in those 5 categories to determine who wins those awards most of the time and advanced stats never tell the whole picture that's been proven so many times. Let me guess you're a Lebron James fan?

How does the NBA use the box score? And why is the NBA investing tens of millions to have tens of thousands of stats beyond the box score? The NBA is the most anti box score organization there is kid.

And as for Lebron...maybe the goat. I can't stand him personally...on or off court. But please troll me harder baby!

Do you not understand what a box score is really seriously when look up a game and look at the score it shows the players stats like there is points assists rebounds steals blocks for a game the NBA keeps track of those, what do think a 5x5 game is or a quadruple-double is and you're asking if I understand Basketball.Lol.Sports writers are still even using them when they choose awards, as for calling me kid real men don't call other grown men kid just because they that don't agree with them.

[dhsilv2]

Who cares the NBA uses box scores not the eye tests your talking about, and sports writers look at those leaders in those 5 categories to determine who wins those awards most of the time and advanced stats never tell the whole picture that's been proven so many times. Let me guess you're a Lebron James fan?

How does the NBA use the box score? And why is the NBA investing tens of millions to have tens of thousands of stats beyond the box score? The NBA is the most anti box score organization there is kid.

And as for Lebron...maybe the goat. I can't stand him personally...on or off court. But please troll me harder baby!

Do you not understand what a box score is really seriously when look up a game and look at the score it shows the players stats like there is points assists rebounds steals blocks for a game the NBA keeps track of those, what do think a 5x5 game is or a quadruple-double is and you're asking if I understand Basketball.Lol.Sports writers are still even using them when they choose awards, as for calling me kid real men don't call other grown men kid just because they that don't agree with them.

You're the one who keeps getting schooled. If you have questions about stats ask them.

You've been told, you're wrong about everything. So please start asking questions if you want to learn.

Oh and sorry if you're not a under 16. You just post like you are.

[Common Sensei]

How does the NBA use the box score? And why is the NBA investing tens of millions to have tens of thousands of stats beyond the box score? The NBA is the most anti box score organization there is kid.

And as for Lebron...maybe the goat. I can't stand him personally...on or off court. But please troll me harder baby!

Do you not understand what a box score is really seriously when look up a game and look at the score it shows the players stats like there is points assists rebounds steals blocks for a game the NBA keeps track of those, what do think a 5x5 game is or a quadruple-double is and you're asking if I understand Basketball.Lol.Sports writers are still even using them when they choose awards, as for calling me kid real men don't call other grown men kid just because they that don't agree with them.

You're the one who keeps getting schooled. If you have questions about stats ask them.

You've been told, you're wrong about everything. So please start asking questions if you want to learn.

Oh and sorry if you're not a under 16. You just post like you are.

Your maturity is really showing bro, you can believe what you want to believe your just denying real stats because they don't fit your narrative. If you want to talk about advanced stats then I assume John Stockton is better than Larry Bird and Magic Johnson because he has a higher VORP or Dan Issel is better than Larry Bird because he has more Win Shares or Tyson Chandler and Cedric Maxwell are better than Kevin Durant and Reggie Miller because they have a higher True Shooting percentage. I could go on and on. That's why advanced stats don't always work.

[dhsilv2]

Do you not understand what a box score is really seriously when look up a game and look at the score it shows the players stats like there is points assists rebounds steals blocks for a game the NBA keeps track of those, what do think a 5x5 game is or a quadruple-double is and you're asking if I understand Basketball.Lol.Sports writers are still even using them when they choose awards, as for calling me kid real men don't call other grown men kid just because they that don't agree with them.

You're the one who keeps getting schooled. If you have questions about stats ask them.

You've been told, you're wrong about everything. So please start asking questions if you want to learn.

Oh and sorry if you're not a under 16. You just post like you are.

Your maturity is really showing bro, you can believe what you want to believe your just denying real stats because they don't fit your narrative. If you want to talk about advanced stats then I assume John Stockton is better than Larry Bird and Magic Johnson because he has a higher VORP or Dan Issel is better than Larry Bird because he has more Win Shares or Tyson Chandler and Cedric Maxwell are better than Kevin Durant and Reggie Miller because they have a higher True Shooting percentage. I could go on and on. That's why advanced stats don't always work.

Nobody has once talked about any of those stats here. Why do you keep making things up? NBA.com doesn't use VORP or winshare. Again are you on drugs? It's cool if you are, but you're posts feel like you're high as you keep just making things up.

The most complete player is the player who can play point and center in the same game the best, in the simplest of terms. That isn't something you can use a box score for. Which btw...VORP and WS are box score based stats. They're the stats YOU keep advocating for.

[Common Sensei]

You're the one who keeps getting schooled. If you have questions about stats ask them.

You've been told, you're wrong about everything. So please start asking questions if you want to learn.

Oh and sorry if you're not a under 16. You just post like you are.

Your maturity is really showing bro, you can believe what you want to believe your just denying real stats because they don't fit your narrative. If you want to talk about advanced stats then I assume John Stockton is better than Larry Bird and Magic Johnson because he has a higher VORP or Dan Issel is better than Larry Bird because he has more Win Shares or Tyson Chandler and Cedric Maxwell are better than Kevin Durant and Reggie Miller because they have a higher True Shooting percentage. I could go on and on. That's why advanced stats don't always work.

Nobody has once talked about any of those stats here. Why do you keep making things up? NBA.com doesn't use VORP or winshare. Again are you on drugs? It's cool if you are, but you're posts feel like you're high as you keep just making things up.

The most complete player is the player who can play point and center in the same game the best, in the simplest of terms. That isn't something you can use a box score for. Which btw...VORP and WS are box score based stats. They're the stats YOU keep advocating for.

Just for you to understand
A complete player in basketball refers to a player who possesses a wide range of skills and attributes that contribute to their overall effectiveness on the court. This includes:
Attitude: A positive attitude towards the game and the ability to learn from criticism.
1
Basketball Skills: Proficiency in shooting, dribbling, passing, rebounding, and defense.
1
Conditioning and Confidence: The ability to compete at a high level without tiring and a strong belief in their abilities.
1
Core Abilities: Skills such as ball handling, finishing at the rim, passing accuracy, footwork, free throw accuracy, rebounding, sound defense, toughness, coachability, and leadership.
1

These elements collectively define what it means to be a complete player in basketball.

[dhsilv2]

Your maturity is really showing bro, you can believe what you want to believe your just denying real stats because they don't fit your narrative. If you want to talk about advanced stats then I assume John Stockton is better than Larry Bird and Magic Johnson because he has a higher VORP or Dan Issel is better than Larry Bird because he has more Win Shares or Tyson Chandler and Cedric Maxwell are better than Kevin Durant and Reggie Miller because they have a higher True Shooting percentage. I could go on and on. That's why advanced stats don't always work.

Nobody has once talked about any of those stats here. Why do you keep making things up? NBA.com doesn't use VORP or winshare. Again are you on drugs? It's cool if you are, but you're posts feel like you're high as you keep just making things up.

The most complete player is the player who can play point and center in the same game the best, in the simplest of terms. That isn't something you can use a box score for. Which btw...VORP and WS are box score based stats. They're the stats YOU keep advocating for.

Just for you to understand
A complete player in basketball refers to a player who possesses a wide range of skills and attributes that contribute to their overall effectiveness on the court. This includes:
Attitude: A positive attitude towards the game and the ability to learn from criticism.
1
Basketball Skills: Proficiency in shooting, dribbling, passing, rebounding, and defense.
1
Conditioning and Confidence: The ability to compete at a high level without tiring and a strong belief in their abilities.
1
Core Abilities: Skills such as ball handling, finishing at the rim, passing accuracy, footwork, free throw accuracy, rebounding, sound defense, toughness, coachability, and leadership.
1

These elements collectively define what it means to be a complete player in basketball.

Great so we both agree given the above. Hakeem isn't it.