Are people lower on Cooper Flagg?

[ryguy613]

With how people typically categorize and value athleticism? Yeah, LeBron's more athletic on the whole.

But that doesn't mean there aren't aspects of athleticism where LeBron's lacking and Cooper's better, such as two-footed jumping. Or moving backwards/backpedaling, sliding laterally, and rotating.

I'd argue Cooper has better defensive athleticism. That is to say, better in the aspects of athleticism related to playing defense, which is largely reactive and done moving backwards or sideways. It's a large reason why he was known for his shotblocking, rim protection, and overall defense as a prospect, and LeBron wasn't.

And I disagree that Cooper has no explosiveness or "burst," whatever that means. I've always heard it used in basketball circles, like "vertical pop." I don't know why you can't just say acceleration or speed, with or without the ball. Anyway, how do you think Cooper got all those blocks and dunks? His speed and power are more than good for a 6'9" forward based on what I've seen so far.

Defensive athleticism? Lebron was an 5x defensive first team player and certainly can move well laterally in his prime.

Cooper Flagg is clearly a good athlete, even a great one. But he is no Lebron or Jordan. I never get the Lebron comparison. Lebron was a downhill, explosive freak of nature. Hell even last year, he had more dunk highlights than most players in their prime.

LeBron became a great defender over time. Some of that was effort, some of that was IQ, awareness, and decision-making from repetition and experience. He wasn't as precocious a defensive talent as Cooper was. And I think those athletic traits I described played a part in that.

This isn't to say LeBron's defensive athleticism isn't good. It's great. His size, strength, and explosiveness provided him with superb versatility.

I just don't think he has as much as Cooper does. Specificities and nuances matter. A guy might be explosive and coordinated going forward in a straight line, but suck going backwards or sideways, especially with his arms up playing defense at the same time. Some guys are great one-foot leapers with a runway, but can't go off two feet very well. Flagg is pretty flawless as a defender, both physically and cognitively. He's borderline elite already and has a higher defensive ceiling than LBJ, IMO.

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"Kid might make defense cool again" is an insanely cringe take.

[Rust_Cohle]

Don't think he gets ROTY, mavs are a mess. He'll be great in 3 years

[johannking]

For those who believe is not explosive or can't accelerate, who is a current wing player you would use as a reference point?

[FrodoBaggins]

Tough B2B game in Minnesota coming off an OT win at home. Some nice shooting and finishes inside. Form and touch are looking good. Still getting iced out a lot of the time.

Watch on YouTube

[audiosway]

He seems like a good kid and there is no doubt that he's talented. He's definitely got the 2 way player look about him. He's just not Luka. Luka is an actual generational player. That term gets thrown around too much.

Luka can take a team full of misfits to the Finals like he did a couple of seasons ago. That's LeBron level stuff. That's what generational players do.

Coop will be a star I believe if he continues to develop. He's young though. He has shown flashes of what he can be. But, Luka had multiple triple doubles as an 19 year old rookie. That's not Coop.

I feel bad for him right now though. He is in a trash situation. The only difference between a finals team and barely a play in team was Luka. That says it all.

[FrodoBaggins]

1. No one knows what generational prospect even means. There's no robust definition that anyone agrees on. There certainly wasn't any consensus about Cooper being one, whatever it means.
2. Cooper was the youngest NPOY ever and one of four (KD, AD, Zion) freshmen to win the award. He led the #1 team in all five major statistics (PPG, RPG, APG, SPG, BPG) and recorded some of the best one-number metrics (Basketball Reference's BPM, Evan Miya, Ken Pom, Bart Torvik) in the available historical database. He was essentially a point forward and the lead ball handler for the #1 offense in the country.

He was hyped for a reason. He started the first 10 games slowly, then finished incredibly strong over the final 27:

Last 27g:
- 20.4 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 4.4 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.3 bpg, 2.1 topg
- 50.0% FG, 44.4% 3PT (3.7 3pa/g), 52.1% 2PT (9.8 2pa/g), 56.0 eFG%, 87.7% FT (6.0 fta/g), 63.2% TS

As well-rounded and flawless a prospect as you can find, especially at that age. The size, athleticism, skill, cognition, and intangibles are all very good. He just doesn't have a "freak" quality, like size, athleticism, or a combination of the two. All B+ and A-s. If he does have one, I'd say it's his cognition (basketball IQ, awareness, decision-making) and that bodes well IMO, considering what Jokic and Luka have shown us. Here's what Sam Vecenie wrote about Cooper's passing/vision/decision-making:

● All of this leads to what might be Flagg’s best offensive skill, though: his passing ability. A very unselfish player. Makes quick decisions. Doesn’t overdribble before finding his teammates. If someone is open, he’s going to hit them. Excellent at getting downhill and making live-dribble passes to create shots for his teammates. Does an amazing job of creating angles with jumps. Awesome at keeping his eyes up even as he goes up for a shot, looking for an easier opportunity for a teammate. Finds the cross-corner kickouts after the tagger sits on the roller. Finds the baseline reads to the corner. Excellent at finding cutters and dump-offs into the dunker spot.

● Even showed some extremely high-level short-roll kickout reads as the screener in ball-screen situations. Can put velocity on the ball, or just throw a well-timed lob with touch. Can throw nearly any pass he has to from any angle. Will be an awesome passer and playmaker for his teammates in the NBA when the passing windows get even wider. Averaged 4.2 assists per game this year versus only 2.1 turnovers.

The hope for his upside is the combination of size, athleticism, downhill slashing, shooting, and playmaking. A physical, bully-ball slashing point-forward. Basically, the LeBron archetype. Randle's doing it well to start the season. Banchero's trying to get there. Cooper has all the tools; he has all the ingredients. It's just going to be a matter of time and patience while it's cooking in the oven.

Just want to follow up on this.

17/18 year-old freshman Cooper had the second-highest BPR (+13.07) in Evan Miya's CBB analytical database going back to 2009-10. Only 2023-24 Zach Edey - a senior - had a higher mark (+14.28). Flagg's BPR surpassed Chet (+11.47), Zion (+12.83), and AD (+11.84). Cameron Boozer currently has a +10.13 BPR after 214 possessions into the season. AJ Dybantsa's at +7.25 (208 poss) and Darryn Petersen's at +7.83 (87 poss).

[bonita_the_frog]

He seems like a good kid and there is no doubt that he's talented. He's definitely got the 2 way player look about him. He's just not Luka.

Exactly, nobody will ever accuse Luka of being a 2-way player... That's why the Lakers can't contend with Luka.
Luka reached the NBA Finals because Dallas had the best defense in the NBA (in the 2nd half of that season) so Luka could be Luka.
Whereas Flagg will play a starring role both offensively and defensively, and his scoring appears headed for 18-20ppg this season.
Prime Flagg will be 25+ppg and MVP trophies, because he's an athletic 2-way player.

[audiosway]

He seems like a good kid and there is no doubt that he's talented. He's definitely got the 2 way player look about him. He's just not Luka.

Exactly, nobody will ever accuse Luka of being a 2-way player... That's why the Lakers can't contend with Luka.
Luka reached the NBA Finals because Dallas had the best defense in the NBA (in the 2nd half of that season) so Luka could be Luka.
Whereas Flagg will play a starring role both offensively and defensively, and his scoring appears headed for 18-20ppg this season.
Prime Flagg will be 25+ppg and MVP trophies, because he's an athletic 2-way player.

I didn't say the Lakers can't contend with Luka. They will win titles with Luka. Mark my words. Also, no one is saying Coop will be an MVP either. That's a stretch. He has a long way to go before he gets there.

Luka's lack of defense is vastly overblown. He isn't a lock down defender but he's definitely not a traffic cone either.

[Pelly24]

People just gotta give him time. Him not even being 19 year is just absurd. he would look a million times better with Kyrie and or AD in the lineup. Comparing to Luka .... Luka has like, the ceiling of a top 6 or 7 player ever. Mavs messed up trading him. Colossal mistake. But Cooper is at minimum a future All-NBA guy.

[Ice Man]

This is an almost comically dysfunctional team with an almost comically dysfunctional coach. Last night -

Dallas Guards 20-57 shooting, 9 assists, 16 TOs
Dallas Nonguards 13-28 shooting, 4 assists, 4 TOs

It's a variation of this every night. Kidd watches as his team's collection of second- and third-rate guards run around the court playing bad iso ball, while his forwards & centers starve to get into the action.

To be sure, the nonguards get more shots when AD plays, because he's gonna grab the ball and do his thing. But that's not really coaching, either.

[PlatinumState]

Why did Kidd get extended last month? He was never a good coach, I dunno how he still has a job

[dirkdiggler4177]

He seems like a good kid and there is no doubt that he's talented. He's definitely got the 2 way player look about him. He's just not Luka.

Exactly, nobody will ever accuse Luka of being a 2-way player... That's why the Lakers can't contend with Luka.
Luka reached the NBA Finals because Dallas had the best defense in the NBA (in the 2nd half of that season) so Luka could be Luka.
Whereas Flagg will play a starring role both offensively and defensively, and his scoring appears headed for 18-20ppg this season.
Prime Flagg will be 25+ppg and MVP trophies, because he's an athletic 2-way player.

I didn't say the Lakers can't contend with Luka. They will win titles with Luka. Mark my words. Also, no one is saying Coop will be an MVP either. That's a stretch. He has a long way to go before he gets there.

Luka's lack of defense is vastly overblown. He isn't a lock down defender but he's definitely not a traffic cone either.

The problem with Luka, and it was the same with Harden in Houston, is that they do so much on offense that they are allowed to pause on defense. It is not about whether they are good defenders or not; it is about having the energy to defend. Luka can step up when it matters in the 4th.

The problem with this is that in today's NBA, the talent levels are so high that it will get you burned. The offensive schemes are more and more complex. It's not like before, where you could put Kobe on Bruce Bowen and those two would just stand in the corner together.

As good as Luka is, right now he looks more like Iverson, Barkley, and Harden than Curry, Giannis, and Kawhi Leonard. This can obviously change, though


Just an example of Luka chilling too much

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[dirkdiggler4177]

This is an almost comically dysfunctional team with an almost comically dysfunctional coach. Last night -

Dallas Guards 20-57 shooting, 9 assists, 16 TOs
Dallas Nonguards 13-28 shooting, 4 assists, 4 TOs

It's a variation of this every night. Kidd watches as his team's collection of second- and third-rate guards run around the court playing bad iso ball, while his forwards & centers starve to get into the action.

To be sure, the nonguards get more shots when AD plays, because he's gonna grab the ball and do his thing. But that's not really coaching, either.

Last night was hopeless, though. Coming off an overtime win and missing 3 starting centers. It will be interesting to see how this team does when everybody is healthy. Just think how last night's game would have been with Kyrie starting with Anthony Davis and Lively.

[Ice Man]

[Last night was hopeless, though. Coming off an overtime win and missing 3 starting centers.

In a way, I disagree. Last night, the Bulls were on a road back to back in Denver, after playing double overtime the night before, while missing both Coby White and their backup PG (Tre Jones). And Denver shot better on 3s than Minnesota did against Dallas. But instead of being blown out, the Bulls won.

But in another way, I fully agree with you -- because Dallas has Jason Kidd as coach. The Mavs are playing with the 2nd fastest pace in the NBA this season and the Bulls are 8th. Yet the Mavs have failed to score 110 points in 8 games, including 4 with AD, and the Bulls have never failed to hit that mark. A talent difference? Nah. Besides Giddey, who is undeniably good, the Bulls are starting Okoro (trash), Huerter (journeyman), Vuc (no trade value), and Buzelis (a promising kid but largely invisible). The bench consists of two good players (Tre and Ayo Dosunmu) and then a bunch of summer signing level guys -- Jevon Carter, Dalen Terry, Jalen Smith, Pat Williams, Julian Phillips.

The difference in coaching is night and day. The Bulls have a good and recognizable offensive plan no matter who is on the floor. Whereas with Dallas, as far as I can tell Kidd just rolls the ball out and the guys do what they want.

[Mirotic12]

Why did Kidd get extended last month? He was never a good coach, I dunno how he still has a job

They could easily find hundreds of better coaches in Europe. Their management is beyond lazy.

[tsherkin]

Why did Kidd get extended last month? He was never a good coach, I dunno how he still has a job

They could easily find hundreds of better coaches in Europe. Their management is beyond lazy.

Networking is a thing, but so is finding a way to get your guys to respect your coach. That doesn't always work when they're an unknown from overseas. It does sometimes, of course. And for Dallas, it's probably a good idea. I think it just isn't on the radar for most franchises, though, because the coaching pool is usually former players and NCAA coaches, generally speaking. And honestly, until you get into higher levels of actual competitive value, coaching means only so much.

[PlatinumState]

Why did Kidd get extended last month? He was never a good coach, I dunno how he still has a job

They could easily find hundreds of better coaches in Europe. Their management is beyond lazy.

Nba teams never hire foreign coaches that havent been coaching in the US on any level previously. Its a different system (a players league if you will), and I dont think players would respect a coach that doesnt speak near perfect or perfect english. Players wouldnt react well to Ataman or Obradovic screaming at them non stop at all since they make too much money

[KokoKaizer]

Why did Kidd get extended last month? He was never a good coach, I dunno how he still has a job

They could easily find hundreds of better coaches in Europe. Their management is beyond lazy.

No

[MrGoat]

[Last night was hopeless, though. Coming off an overtime win and missing 3 starting centers.

In a way, I disagree. Last night, the Bulls were on a road back to back in Denver, after playing double overtime the night before, while missing both Coby White and their backup PG (Tre Jones). And Denver shot better on 3s than Minnesota did against Dallas. But instead of being blown out, the Bulls won.

But in another way, I fully agree with you -- because Dallas has Jason Kidd as coach. The Mavs are playing with the 2nd fastest pace in the NBA this season and the Bulls are 8th. Yet the Mavs have failed to score 110 points in 8 games, including 4 with AD, and the Bulls have never failed to hit that mark. A talent difference? Nah. Besides Giddey, who is undeniably good, the Bulls are starting Okoro (trash), Huerter (journeyman), Vuc (no trade value), and Buzelis (a promising kid but largely invisible). The bench consists of two good players (Tre and Ayo Dosunmu) and then a bunch of summer signing level guys -- Jevon Carter, Dalen Terry, Jalen Smith, Pat Williams, Julian Phillips.

The difference in coaching is night and day. The Bulls have a good and recognizable offensive plan no matter who is on the floor. Whereas with Dallas, as far as I can tell Kidd just rolls the ball out and the guys do what they want.

I'll only give Kidd a pass for this season because Dallas does not need to be winning games this season. He definitely got used to just letting Luka run the offense himself, though. Kidd never had a top 5 offense with the Mavs despite having Luka though, Rick Carlisle had the #1 offense with Luka in 2020. That's a coaching fail

Dallas fans' expectations on Flagg this season were way too high. They think he's supposed to replace Luka, that certainly was never going to happen right away. They also had the rare time where the rookie before Flagg actually made a huge impact, but Dereck Lively was put in the perfect situation for him at the time (not so great now with Luka gone), Flagg landed in a bad situation

[John Murdoch]

Kidd and AD, Kyrie need to go

Just build a system around him like the C's had with rookie Tatum