Is Scottie like the defensive JALEN JOHNSON?

[DreamTeam09]

Broadly, I'll call a franchise player anyone who has made or is very capable of making All NBA 1st team. The '04 Pistons might be the only championship team in the past 40 years that had no one with that honour on his resume.

See in the last few years that means guys like Tatum, Mitchell, and Booker, would all be "franchise players". I think there is a significant gap between them and others.

I think the real threshold is "a player capable of winning the MVP trophy".

Tatum gets a lot of slander but making All-NBA 1st Team 4 years in a row and not being considered a franchise player seems a bit harsh.

if that's the bar for your franchise to be worthy of being in existence, then ppl shouldn't be in the two crowd, they should be in the league consolidation crowd.

No wonder everyone will never be happy or satisfied, when the expectation is must be TOP 20 HOF player of all time or nothing

[earthtone]

Broadly, I'll call a franchise player anyone who has made or is very capable of making All NBA 1st team. The '04 Pistons might be the only championship team in the past 40 years that had no one with that honour on his resume.

See in the last few years that means guys like Tatum, Mitchell, and Booker, would all be "franchise players". I think there is a significant gap between them and others.

I think the real threshold is "a player capable of winning the MVP trophy".

Tatum gets a lot of slander but making All-NBA 1st Team 4 years in a row and not being considered a franchise player seems a bit harsh.

Same with Mitchell too. 6 consecutive all-star teams with 2 All-NBA appearances, but somehow not a 'Franchise Player'.

Franchise player shouldn't be synonymous with MVP candidate, that's another tier completely imo

[bballsparkin]

Broadly, I'll call a franchise player anyone who has made or is very capable of making All NBA 1st team. The '04 Pistons might be the only championship team in the past 40 years that had no one with that honour on his resume.

See in the last few years that means guys like Tatum, Mitchell, and Booker, would all be "franchise players". I think there is a significant gap between them and others.

I think the real threshold is "a player capable of winning the MVP trophy".

Tatum gets a lot of slander but making All-NBA 1st Team 4 years in a row and not being considered a franchise player seems a bit harsh.

I'm not a Tatum fan. But I think he's capable of winning an MVP trophy. To me he is a borderline franchise player. But like I said, I'm a hater.

[PushDaRock]

See in the last few years that means guys like Tatum, Mitchell, and Booker, would all be "franchise players". I think there is a significant gap between them and others.

I think the real threshold is "a player capable of winning the MVP trophy".

Tatum gets a lot of slander but making All-NBA 1st Team 4 years in a row and not being considered a franchise player seems a bit harsh.

if that's the bar for your franchise to be worthy of being in existence, then ppl shouldn't be in the two crowd, they should be in the league consolidation crowd.

No wonder everyone will never be happy or satisfied, when the expectation is must be TOP 20 HOF player of all time or nothing

lol seriously how many simulations would you need to run while being a terrible team to actually hit on someone as good as Tatum and then you still aren't happy because he's not an ATG.

[brownbobcat]

Broadly, I'll call a franchise player anyone who has made or is very capable of making All NBA 1st team. The '04 Pistons might be the only championship team in the past 40 years that had no one with that honour on his resume.

See in the last few years that means guys like Tatum, Mitchell, and Booker, would all be "franchise players". I think there is a significant gap between them and others.

I think the real threshold is "a player capable of winning the MVP trophy".

Tatum gets a lot of slander but making All-NBA 1st Team 4 years in a row and not being considered a franchise player seems a bit harsh.

Tatum has proven that he was good enough to the best player on a championship team. If that's not good enough to be a franchise player, I question the usefulness of such a description in the first place.

[Tha Cynic]

The better question is - was there a franchise player in the Barnes draft? Personally I don’t think any of those guys have established themselves as more than a Siakam type which imo is less than a Lowry with Raptors type.

Cade definitely is. He has that rizz.

Now, is Cade in the Damian Lillard/PG13/AD stratosphere or the KD/Kawhi/Curry stratosphere? ?!? ???

See to me the first 3 are not franchise players. AD is the closest, but none of those first 3 are like a "wow - they are immeditely title favorites cause they have them"

Those first 3 guys were all #2's at some point in their career, and those teams still were not unstoppable teams. IMO, if you are a "franchise player", you are at a minimum a playoff team just due to your existence. TWO franchise players = contenders.

Now, in the new CBA this is all drastically changing so it is way more murky now than it used to be.

Re Cade: I did have him almost on my "Franchise player list", but there is still a lot of guys you are trading Cade for without even hesitating. I think a franchise player requires some hesitation at a minimum

I’m still hesitant on Cade but he’s has at least somewhat shown that he can lead a team to some winning as the main guy, even if he is terribly inefficient. That Pistons team is hard to gauge though as their defense is elite and they still do well when he’s not playing now. I don’t think it’s all him.

My thought on this Barnes class is that there are no true franchise players. So then you adjust to look at them in the next role and the way Barnes plays stacks up very well beside a true superstar scorer type imo. He can essentially lead the team in every single other facet of the game while the main guy focuses on the scoring. When people say Wagner or Sengun are easily ahead I disagree. They’re ahead in a pure scoring sense but Barnes doesn’t have any less of an impact playing in a secondary role.

If you want a guy who will win some games with his scoring as a mid 500 team, that will never be good enough to win a championship you can insert other guys. At that point I don’t even care. Example is Derozan or even a guy like Banchero who is vastly overrated in the NBA. His scoring can make you a better team in the regular season but he will never lead your team to playoff success and championships.

This draft class is great though - they have had guys flip flop every season. Barnes has had just as much success as all the other guys. Two of those guys on one team will probably still not be good enough to lead a team to a championship though. Does anyone think a team lead by Cade with Mobley or Sengun or Wagner or Barnes is winning a championship? Or any combination of two of these guys as the main guy? I don’t.

[YogurtProducer]

See in the last few years that means guys like Tatum, Mitchell, and Booker, would all be "franchise players". I think there is a significant gap between them and others.

I think the real threshold is "a player capable of winning the MVP trophy".

Tatum gets a lot of slander but making All-NBA 1st Team 4 years in a row and not being considered a franchise player seems a bit harsh.

if that's the bar for your franchise to be worthy of being in existence, then ppl shouldn't be in the two crowd, they should be in the league consolidation crowd.

No wonder everyone will never be happy or satisfied, when the expectation is must be TOP 20 HOF player of all time or nothing

Who said you need a franchise player to be worthy of existence…?

[Boogie!]

Sam Mitchell says he’s gonna be better than kawhi leonard

[YogurtProducer]

Tatum gets a lot of slander but making All-NBA 1st Team 4 years in a row and not being considered a franchise player seems a bit harsh.

if that's the bar for your franchise to be worthy of being in existence, then ppl shouldn't be in the two crowd, they should be in the league consolidation crowd.

No wonder everyone will never be happy or satisfied, when the expectation is must be TOP 20 HOF player of all time or nothing

lol seriously how many simulations would you need to run while being a terrible team to actually hit on someone as good as Tatum and then you still aren't happy because he's not an ATG.

Where are you guys getting that I’d be unhappy with these guys?

Franchise player (Wemby / SGA / Jokic)
Superstar (Tatum / Mitchell)
Star (Siakam / Lowry / Brown)

Doesn’t mean you are not happy with a star. But there is definite levels to this

[YogurtProducer]

See in the last few years that means guys like Tatum, Mitchell, and Booker, would all be "franchise players". I think there is a significant gap between them and others.

I think the real threshold is "a player capable of winning the MVP trophy".

Tatum gets a lot of slander but making All-NBA 1st Team 4 years in a row and not being considered a franchise player seems a bit harsh.

I'm not a Tatum fan. But I think he's capable of winning an MVP trophy. To me he is a borderline franchise player. But like I said, I'm a hater.

I think anyone the Boston environment is propped up a little much as they had so much good talent for so long.

[PushDaRock]

if that's the bar for your franchise to be worthy of being in existence, then ppl shouldn't be in the two crowd, they should be in the league consolidation crowd.

No wonder everyone will never be happy or satisfied, when the expectation is must be TOP 20 HOF player of all time or nothing

lol seriously how many simulations would you need to run while being a terrible team to actually hit on someone as good as Tatum and then you still aren't happy because he's not an ATG.

Where are you guys getting that I’d be unhappy with these guys?

Franchise player (Wemby / SGA / Jokic)
Superstar (Tatum / Mitchell)
Star (Siakam / Lowry / Brown)

Doesn’t mean you are not happy with a star. But there is definite levels to this

It's all just semantics anyways. A lot of people would have it the other way around and define that first group as Superstars and the 2nd group as Franchise players.

[Got Nuffin]

Barnes is starting to get some flowers around the league 'critics' with a number of recent podcasts praising his play this season. Notably Zach Lowe, who was VERY down on the Raptors coming into the season and even a week ago, praising Barnes' activity on defence and all around play, particularly saying that his numbers are not even really reflective of his impact on the game. Lowe believes now that we're building something exciting here behind Scottie.

Barnes is defending at an elite level and is still one of our best players on the other end as well. He will likely never be a legit first option, but if he's a second third option and still playing defence like he is, passing and pushing the break, he is a probably a career All Star who gets All NBA looks through his prime.

Yes, better than Siakam has been. Better than Lowry potentially imo. Get in for the ride.

[MiamiSPX]

Barnes is starting to get some flowers around the league 'critics' with a number of recent podcasts praising his play this season. Notably Zach Lowe, who was VERY down on the Raptors coming into the season and even a week ago, praising Barnes' activity on defence and all around play, particularly saying that his numbers are not even really reflective of his impact on the game. Lowe believes now that we're building something exciting here behind Scottie.

Kevin O'Connor was also touting Barnes for All-Defensive on his podcast yesterday.

[TeamDisgruntled]

Barnes is starting to get some flowers around the league 'critics' with a number of recent podcasts praising his play this season. Notably Zach Lowe, who was VERY down on the Raptors coming into the season and even a week ago, praising Barnes' activity on defence and all around play, particularly saying that his numbers are not even really reflective of his impact on the game. Lowe believes now that we're building something exciting here behind Scottie.

Barnes is defending at an elite level and is still one of our best players on the other end as well. He will likely never be a legit first option, but if he's a second third option and still playing defence like he is, passing and pushing the break, he is a probably a career All Star who gets All NBA looks through his prime.

Yes, better than Siakam has been. Better than Lowry potentially imo. Get in for the ride.

Zach was down on the roster, but he’s always remained high on Scottie. Prob the one guy who never gave up on him. During the bad run for the last 1.5 years he always said Scottie would be just fine when all the other pundits were crapping on him.

Let’s hope Gradey is next, he played great last night. Last couple games, his defence has been dare I say..good?

[OakleyDokely]

This is the prime version of Scottie.

Fill-in the gaps offensively, which sometimes means an assist, a rebound, a post up, a 3 and be an absolute terrorist on the defensive end.

[HumbleRen]

This is the prime version of Scottie.

Fill-in the gaps offensively, which sometimes means an assist, a rebound, a post up, a 3 and be an absolute terrorist on the defensive end.

There’s a higher level he can get to, not sure he can tap into it but I refuse to believe this is his peak as a scorer. No way Josh Giddey can surpass him as a scorer.

[OakleyDokely]

The right balance needs to be found and I think they're close. The more usage or offensive responsibility given to Scottie, the less energy he has to give on the defensive end. It's hard for anyone to go 100% at both ends, all the time.

[tsherkin]

The right balance needs to be found and I think they're close. The more usage or offensive responsibility given to Scottie, the less energy he has to give on the defensive end. It's hard for anyone to go 100% at both ends, all the time.

Very true. And we have that luxury right now, given BI and Barrett. Scottie can pick his spots more than ever, and it isn't a disaster if he scores 15 points, so he can just focus on his D.

[bballsparkin]

Tatum gets a lot of slander but making All-NBA 1st Team 4 years in a row and not being considered a franchise player seems a bit harsh.

I'm not a Tatum fan. But I think he's capable of winning an MVP trophy. To me he is a borderline franchise player. But like I said, I'm a hater.

I think anyone the Boston environment is propped up a little much as they had so much good talent for so long.

My thoughts exactly. He's a franchise player for Boston that is not in doubt. Their championship team was also stacked.

[Thaddy]

Barnes nearly always has the highest plus-minus on our team. The numbers don't reflect his impact. Hockey assists matter it drives confidence in the guys around him. I would guess he's someone other stars would like playing with. BI is probably the ultimate guy to put next to him.