Kobe and the Art of Making Difficult Shots

[Jimmy Recard]

No because his confidence (you could call it ego) overrode his IQ lol. There’s been plenty of examples of that from great players. Lebrons flashy passing that would at times result in a turnovers or even Curry taking logo three point shots that clank. They’re not by basketball IQ great decisions, but those players have so much confidence in themselves that it didn’t matter.

Lebron making a flashy pass is not at all the same as Kobe chucking shots over several defenders while ignoring open teammates. One is a self serving play while the other is literally creating an opportunity for a teammate. what flashy passes are you referring to with LeBron, no look passes? Behind the back? Those are basketball plays strategically used to deceive the defense to create an opening for a teammate. Would you say Jokic’s flashy passes are low iq plays? Of course not.

Bringing up by far the best shooter of all time in Steph is a strange one, Kobe isn’t on the same planet as Steph as a shooter and isn’t anywhere near as efficient.

All stats are self serving plays when you get to the point of the stat era of the mid to late 2010's and beyond. Assists are no exception.

Not to take anything away from Lebron, because he was playmaking at a GOAT level before passing was cool and whilst in the era were taking the shot was seen as the more acceptable approach. But for anyone who came much later than Lebron, yes, they are all just stat padding their assist totals. Even more so with Steph who was launching 3's during the notion they were bad shots. Lebron and Steph are trailblazers. But everyone else assisting and chucking 3's aren't.

Passing the ball to an open teammate is self serving? What?

[Optms]

Lebron making a flashy pass is not at all the same as Kobe chucking shots over several defenders while ignoring open teammates. One is a self serving play while the other is literally creating an opportunity for a teammate. what flashy passes are you referring to with LeBron, no look passes? Behind the back? Those are basketball plays strategically used to deceive the defense to create an opening for a teammate. Would you say Jokic’s flashy passes are low iq plays? Of course not.

Bringing up by far the best shooter of all time in Steph is a strange one, Kobe isn’t on the same planet as Steph as a shooter and isn’t anywhere near as efficient.

All stats are self serving plays when you get to the point of the stat era of the mid to late 2010's and beyond. Assists are no exception.

Not to take anything away from Lebron, because he was playmaking at a GOAT level before passing was cool and whilst in the era were taking the shot was seen as the more acceptable approach. But for anyone who came much later than Lebron, yes, they are all just stat padding their assist totals. Even more so with Steph who was launching 3's during the notion they were bad shots. Lebron and Steph are trailblazers. But everyone else assisting and chucking 3's aren't.

Passing the ball to an open teammate is self serving? What?

Yes. We literately see players today pass up open shots on the regular just to keep the ball moving. Its like the anti-me shot era. Yes, they are chasing assists. Especially the top assist guys. Gotta keep the triple doubles going.

[KayDee35]

Kobe didn’t care about his advanced stats nor his efficiency. His sole goal was to win the basketball game no matter what. And I don’t think he shot difficult shots just for the cool factor. He was so confident of his abilities that he took any shot, whether there was one or three defenders on him. In some degree, to him no shot was a bad shot.

I always feel badly when I have to ruin some kid's dreamy-eyed vision of their idol. But we all have to grow up sometime

Game 7 of the 2006 Lakers-Suns playoffs was Kobe doing things other than trying "to win a a basketball game no matter what." Kobe had 23 points in the first half and only ONE point in the entire second half. Everyone knew Kobe was trying to send a message and not win the game.

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The Pistons will forever be grateful to Kobe for making the 2004 Finals an easy one by playing selfishly because he wanted Finals MVP so badly. Kobe shot 38% but took 113 shots. Shaq shot 62% but only put up 84 shots.

His own teammate had this to say:[quote=KareemRush] I think that we were favored by everybody to win the series you know, and at the time Shaq had the first three Finals MVPs. So I think Kobe had the mindset with that as the primary focus, but I think he was really itching to get that MVP — and we got caught off guard by a better team.[/quote]

In what fantasy world is Kobe a team player??? Because that ain't the world we live in.

[Lockdown504090]

kd has a higher true shooting in 2014. bryant has 39 usage rate and played 41 minutes per game with only 2 starting level players on the team in 2006. how do you. can you make the argument that he shouldnt have 41 minutes per game and a 39 usg? the rest of the perim players were really bad despite the gravity of 1 of the greatest offensive players in leauge history. Then playoffs, outside of the 2012 finals run, hes not much more efficent, and that difference is again somewhat made up for with the usage.

I showed you his raw TS% and his TS+ with the Thunder in the playoffs. It's not a small gap, it's significant.

I dont think theres anything wrong with thinking kd is better as a scorer than bryant( i would disagree) but to say theres a massive gap statistically, i dont think is even rooted in reality. Go look at his numbers playing for mike dantoni, when he was already on one leg compared to his earlier career. Imagine if he was in that system before.

KD is definitely a better scorer. Better at drawing fouls, uncontestably superior shooter from everywhere, comparable iso scorer. On average, he scores more effectively than Kobe. That's just what it is. Kobe had a pretty spiky scoring presence based on whether or not his jumper was falling, and he could get insanely hot, but he'd also rain stinkers a lot more regularly than Durant. People like to remember when he got hot and the fact that he liked to shoot a LOT, but that's not really the same thing as being a better scorer. And remember, this is KD we're talking about: he's one of the 5 guys in NBA history with 4+ scoring titles, right? Kobe probably would have had one or two more had he not played alongside Shaq in his earlier years, if we're being fair to him, of course, so I'm not using the scoring titles as a measure of superiority, just a reminder of the player we're discussing alongside Bryant.

And yes, I agree, there are some era considerations, but those didn't change the different in height and shooting ability. And even in that season, Bryant still only managed to go so far with it. Maybe as a younger guy, and perhaps especially with saner usage, he'd have looked better. He was very good, like, an all-time great player. But there were barriers for Kobe compared to a guy like Durant, tools which KD possesses even now as an older guy which Kobe would never have enjoyed. That's not something he could overcome, and that's before we get into Kobe's specific mentality.

In 2013, Kobe was a 57% TS player, which was +3.5% rTS and 107 TS+, which was fairly similar to his best decade. 99-08, he posted a 106 TS+, which is at least making some adjustment so we're looking at it relative to league averages of the time so we don't default to looking at raw efficiency, which obviously adjusts some with league environment. So what we were learning there is that when healthy, with a coach who was putting him in better positions, he was able to score roughly as he did before his team starting falling apart. This isn't quite the platform you're looking for relative to Durant.

the point with 13 was that the knee was already getting drained out by 2010 he has 3 surgeries on his right knee( the one with the brace post 2008) since. im just saying like kd had the jones fracture never got to that 2014 level of dominance, kobe had a ton of those. say he had that system in 2007, i shudder at what he would have done. I dont think you are wrong btw, its just closer than it appears at first glance. Not saying you are, but i find a lot of commentary about bryant to be very simple and dismissive based on what are to me. not you specifically, I just really want people to take more nuanced looks at some of these players from that era of time after defensive 3 seconds was added and before teams figured out counters to "ICE" defense.

[Old_Blue]

In what fantasy world is Kobe a team player??? Because that ain't the world we live in.

Anyone who ever claims that Kobe Bryant was a team player immediately loses any and all credibility forever. All of the players with whom Kobe played and all of the coaches for whom he played knew he was - God bless his soul - a selfish mother effer.

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[Common Sensei]

In what fantasy world is Kobe a team player??? Because that ain't the world we live in.

Anyone who ever claims that Kobe Bryant was a team player immediately loses any and all credibility forever. All of the players with whom Kobe played and all of the coaches for whom he played knew he was - God bless his soul - a selfish mother effer.

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Kobe Bryant fans don't care about his efficiency or him as a person they just were manipulated by the media who continued to market him. He was their chosen one no matter what.

[Asianiac_24]

Kobe was an amazing player and an ATG player, but he just isn't on the level of MJ/Bron tier, which he gets compared to all the time. Kobe looks very pedastrian compared to MJ or LeBron, which is the same case for almost all, save about 5 other players in history.

[The Laker Kid]

NBA is entertainment. Its primary goal is to entertain and in that framing, Kobe delivers each night. He might shoot 1 for 10 but that ONE FANTASTIC shot that he made makes up for all the previous ones that he didn't make. He has the most aesthetically pleasing moves that you just never get tired of seeing. He made us want to tune in and anticipate what sick move he's gonna do next. And when you miss a Laker game, you're always wondering what you're missing. He was a GOAT entertainer.

[Statlanta]

How about the art of actually MAKING the damn shot? Kobe had a career FG% and 3P% of .447 and .329, respectively. Meanwhile, Steph has a career FG% and 3P% of .471 and .423, respectively. "But what about Kobe's athleticism!" the Kobe Stans scream. Yeah, what about it? With that kind of athleticism, you'd have thought Kobe would have put it to far more efficient use instead of chucking at every opportunity. When you talk about Kobe, it's impossible to separate the player from the selfishness. It's right there in the numbers for all to see.

Kobe's mentality is a double edged sword. Yes he was less efficient and hurt his team based on taking some opportunities but you could make the same case that the more efficient guys like Curry and Durant have compromised their teams by trying to be more efficient.

Curry haters call Curry a front-runner/not clutch because he would not shoot a shot like at 0:17.

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but he would if his team was not even threatened like so.

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[Old_Blue]

NBA is entertainment. Its primary goal is to entertain and in that framing, Kobe delivers each night. He might shoot 1 for 10 but that ONE FANTASTIC shot that he made makes up for all the previous ones that he didn't make. He has the most aesthetically pleasing moves that you just never get tired of seeing. He made us want to tune in and anticipate what sick move he's gonna do next. And when you miss a Laker game, you're always wondering what you're missing. He was a GOAT entertainer.

Oh boy. There are so many things wrong with what you just wrote. Where to even begin? You speak of Kobe's hero ball mentality like it was a good thing. Yeesh.

[CodeBreaker]

The thing with uber efficient players like Dirk or Jokic, is that when facing defenses that take away their strengths, there is seldomly any adjustment. So they disappear entirely because they get figured out. More so Jokic.

Since when does Jokic disappear in the playoffs? He’s top 10 all-time in the playoffs in PPG and top 20 in APG. 2nd all-time in BPM. He's probably the most consistent postseason creator since Jordan.

Game 7 of last year. Do you have short term memory?

My guy booked his flight back to pony land at half time. He was nowhere to be found while he his team got wrecked in the second half. Interesting how that isn't in your memory bank.

I'll take Kobe and his 5 titles, two way impact against the stacked competition of the 00's over Mister triple double who flopped then vanished against the first elite team he ever encountered and whose only title came in probably the easiest path to the Finals in the last 30 years. Same team, same core, yet gets bounced in the second round. Can't even get back to the Finals with all his efficiency. I wonder why. Well, I know why. Because 2023 was one of weakest years in modern NBA playoff history.

Your credibility in this board just went down the dumpster with all those nonsense.

Taking the guy with 20 seasons and 1 MVP known as the most inefficient shot-chucking ballhog in history

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[FrobeBryant]

Kobe didn’t care about his advanced stats nor his efficiency. His sole goal was to win the basketball game no matter what. And I don’t think he shot difficult shots just for the cool factor. He was so confident of his abilities that he took any shot, whether there was one or three defenders on him. In some degree, to him no shot was a bad shot.

I always feel badly when I have to ruin some kid's dreamy-eyed vision of their idol. But we all have to grow up sometime

Game 7 of the 2006 Lakers-Suns playoffs was Kobe doing things other than trying "to win a a basketball game no matter what." Kobe had 23 points in the first half and only ONE point in the entire second half. Everyone knew Kobe was trying to send a message and not win the game.

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The Pistons will forever be grateful to Kobe for making the 2004 Finals an easy one by playing selfishly because he wanted Finals MVP so badly. Kobe shot 38% but took 113 shots. Shaq shot 62% but only put up 84 shots.

His own teammate had this to say:[quote=KareemRush] I think that we were favored by everybody to win the series you know, and at the time Shaq had the first three Finals MVPs. So I think Kobe had the mindset with that as the primary focus, but I think he was really itching to get that MVP — and we got caught off guard by a better team.

In what fantasy world is Kobe a team player??? Because that ain't the world we live in.[/quote]

When the heck did I argue that he was a team player? I was merely replying to OP on why he shot so many difficult, contested shots. I get you don’t subscribe to his style of play, but the guy won multiple rings playing the way he played. Efficiency be damned.

[xinxin]

i think he tried too much at times... effectively shooting the team out of the game and making his team mates less engaged or more like spectators themselves..

one of the best no doubt. but less hero ball in key instances would have done more for his career and legacy.

[Old_Blue]

i think he tried too much at times... effectively shooting the team out of the game and making his team mates less engaged or more like spectators themselves..

one of the best no doubt. but less hero ball in key instances would have done more for his career and legacy.

I remember hearing Shaq speak at Kobe's funeral and being blown away at how Shaq spoke directly to Kobe's effed up me first approach to the game. At a funeral! Whether those in attendance were laughing with Shaq or laughing at Kobe is irrelevant. Had what Shaq said been untrue, they all would have gasped. The fact that it was true is what permitted them all to burst out in laughter.

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