Tyus Jones: The newest elephant

[zaymon]

I dont like the results but lets not make it only about him.
We saw with Gary. We saw it with KCP. We even see it with Bane to some degree.
I can attribute defensive problems mostly to him but not the offense.
For me its our coach and players who run offense. Role players can change doesnt matter that much.

[pepe1991]

Guy has 9,5% usage rate
If you think he is reason why Magic are playing mediocre really don't know what to tell you



He is simply easiest target, has no deeper connection with fans, team or FO.

Problem is that most people are victims of own expectations from this season.

[Skybox]

I dont like the results but lets not make it only about him.
We saw with Gary. We saw it with KCP. We even see it with Bane to some degree.
I can attribute defensive problems mostly to him but not the offense.
For me its our coach and players who run offense. Role players can change doesnt matter that much.

Yeah...I'm definitely not dying on the Tyus Jones hill - he has SUCKED...but way too much blame has landed on one of quite a few guys and coaches who have also sucked and I'm not seeing why...maybe it's just deflection from a blind loyalty to other guys who have sucked.

[eyriq]

Guy has 9,5% usage rate
If you think he is reason why Magic are playing mediocre really don't know what to tell you



He is simply easiest target, has no deeper connection with fans, team or FO.

Problem is that most people are victims of own expectations from this season.

"easiest target" because he's the "obvious target".

[Bensational]

Bane, Suggs and AB are showing what we need out of that role - put pressure on the rim, hit your 3’s and make a quick pass if a man is open. TDS is doing that too, but he’s not a guard.

Both Gary and KCP eventually fell into that, too. I’m sure we all remember plenty of times they attacked the paint instead of taking 3’s like us fans wanted. Apparently defenses seem to adjust to cover our shooters too easily, so our shooters need to become triple threats to survive in our offense, lol.

It's probably spacing issue how many poor shooters & poor ballhandlers/ decision makers play. Isaac and Goga are automatic floorspacing killers. And sometimes play together.

Isaac is probably least talented offensive player in nba. it's mindblowing how bad he is.
For a damn season, guy has 1 assist as he shoots 3-16 for 3

Once injuries occur, our rotation becomes massive mess. Banchero & Suggs out = nobody to handle the ball but Franz and Bane. By default, Bane, best off ball guard is wasted playing secondary skill, Franz this year isn't really interested in playmaking and as final result =106 offensive rating.

Jones is tables setting bench playmaker. But there is nothing to be set while sharing floor with Goga and Isaac.

I'm not defending Jones, i never even liked him nor his brother. But there is something to be said about purpose of ballhandling & passing PG, once you strip him from ball handling and put people like Isaac, Jett Howard and Goga next to him.

Our bench bigs can't even do most basic pick&roll, short pops role. Isaac is near 30 and still has no clue how to set screen.

I agree that Tyus has been inconsequential, at best, but I also agree (with Pepe) that he's being used like something he's not. I'm hoping when Moe returns, with Tds coming off the bench again, he'll have some control of the second unit and do what he's good at again (I hope)...He's been great (solid) his whole career until he got to PHX with a team of iso stars who want the ball in their hands and have no use for a true PG (sound familiar?). We still need a shooting guard next to him that will shoot - hoping AB suddenly clicks in that role...Tyus can get him open looks if he'll take them.

I'm not apologizing for Tyus - he has sucked, but there's hope, imo, that he'll wake up in a more suitable situation for his skill set. A Moe/Tyus PnR could become the foundation of our bench offense...especially with TdS and AB pulling up confidently from the perimeter.

The only thing Moe and Tyus would become a foundation for is the worst defense in the league. I wouldn't be banking on MoWags saving the bench offense, and I wouldn't be changing up the roles of other players to try to maximise Tyus limited skills and ability. I think in the board's desperation to add a PG to the roster Tyus' game got massively overrated. The guy has played 11 seasons and only had a positive netrtg in 4 of those seasons - as a backup guard.

The primary playmakers for the bench are whoever of Paolo/Franz/Bane/Suggs are on the court, plus AB and TDS. The team would get a lot more value in having a defensive sharpshooter out there instead of Tyus. He even ranks poorly on the team with his one strength (passing), where he's the 7th or 8th in both totals and efficiency.

[KillMonger]

Think I read something on x that said he hasn't scored in his last 61 minutes....... Not one layup..... Not a free throw....I think Gary went through a stretch like this but at the very least he was defending

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[yoyojw17]

We're not using him as a floor general. And if he isn't orchestrating the offense... He does not have much else value if he keeps missing shots like this.

If there is no plan to change his usage at all this season..... We should look moving him for something that fits the play style. Or give players like Jase and Jett his minites

[pepe1991]

Guy has 9,5% usage rate
If you think he is reason why Magic are playing mediocre really don't know what to tell you



He is simply easiest target, has no deeper connection with fans, team or FO.

Problem is that most people are victims of own expectations from this season.

"easiest target" because he's the "obvious target".

He averages 2,5 shots a game

I even played dumb game: what would happen if Jones made 1 more shot in each and every game he was part of ( took his 9-35 = 25,7% FG to 23-38 = 58% FG). In games where he had 0 FGA, i added him 1 FGM / 1 FGA.

And... only game that would actually ended different is Houston game, due OT .


Truth is, Magic are still pretty terrible team in terms of shooting, and reality of situation is same as last year:
1) no playmaking
2) no much dribble penetration due fact guards can't break first lines of defense
3) reverting back to slow pace that kills flow
4) whole bunch of crappy shooter
5) isolation heavy offense that is easy to adjust and defend


Jones is, like Zaymon said, new Gary Harris. Fans LOVE to fixate on irrelavant bum off bench to pin blame, that guy is always: bit older, isn't drafted by team and didn't spent much time with team in past. It's always done by default, to deflect potential blame from fan favorites. I just find such behavior childish.

Magic just spent all draft picks to "fix" offense, gave Banchero max contract based on OF production and Magic are.... drumroll:
20# ranked offense . Top 10 worst lowest 3 FGA taking and top 10 worst 3 point accuracy team

But yea...Tyus Jones and 9,5% usage is to blame

Magic crappy offense is result of complete lack of point guards.
Jones is backup PG. But never used as such. Because Franz and Banchero are terrible fit, and Mose is staggering min between them. By doing so, one always plays with bench. But in such situations, as usual, that guy has the ball all the time, and just endless ISOs are ran for him.

[basketballRob]

I think we need a scoring guard in place of Tyus. I'm not as concerned about a PG. A player like Beasley would be perfect.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[Bergmaniac]

Gary Harris is a dumb comparison, his role was to defend and he did that very well. And even when he was recording several 0 points games in a row his impact stats were fine.

Tyus is supposed to playmake and be an efficient scorer on a limited volume but he is doing none of this. Him passing up easy shots is also a problem for the offense since it usually leads to tougher shots for his teammates. And he is also even worse on defence than expected. His impact stats are disastrous no matter who he plays with.

[eyriq]

Guy has 9,5% usage rate
If you think he is reason why Magic are playing mediocre really don't know what to tell you



He is simply easiest target, has no deeper connection with fans, team or FO.

Problem is that most people are victims of own expectations from this season.

"easiest target" because he's the "obvious target".

He averages 2,5 shots a game

I even played dumb game: what would happen if Jones made 1 more shot in each and every game he was part of ( took his 9-35 = 25,7% FG to 23-38 = 58% FG). In games where he had 0 FGA, i added him 1 FGM / 1 FGA.

And... only game that would actually ended different is Houston game, due OT .


Truth is, Magic are still pretty terrible team in terms of shooting, and reality of situation is same as last year:
1) no playmaking
2) no much dribble penetration due fact guards can't break first lines of defense
3) reverting back to slow pace that kills flow
4) whole bunch of crappy shooter
5) isolation heavy offense that is easy to adjust and defend


Jones is, like Zaymon said, new Gary Harris. Fans LOVE to fixate on irrelavant bum off bench to pin blame, that guy is always: bit older, isn't drafted by team and didn't spent much time with team in past. It's always done by default, to deflect potential blame from fan favorites. I just find such behavior childish.

Magic just spent all draft picks to "fix" offense, gave Banchero max contract based on OF production and Magic are.... drumroll:
20# ranked offense . Top 10 worst lowest 3 FGA taking and top 10 worst 3 point accuracy team

But yea...Tyus Jones and 9,5% usage is to blame

Magic crappy offense is result of complete lack of point guards.
Jones is backup PG. But never used as such. Because Franz and Banchero are terrible fit, and Mose is staggering min between them. By doing so, one always plays with bench. But in such situations, as usual, that guy has the ball all the time, and just endless ISOs are ran for him.

Usage rate measures who ends the possession, not who is killing the lineup. You can have 0% usage and still tank the team by being a pylon on defense or a complete non-factor that ruins spacing.
The "he only takes 2.5 shots" argument ignores that we are getting crushed specifically when he is on the floor.
The Magic as a team are +24 Net Points on the season.
Tyus Jones is -25 Net Points.
He is effectively negating the entire positive impact of Franz Wagner (+24) by himself. I looked at the efficiency of the "negative" contributors on this roster (the guys with minus ratings), and Jones is in a league of his own:
Share of Negative Minutes: Jones plays 14.3% of the minutes among the negative group.
Share of Negative Points: Jones is responsible for 31.6% of the negative net points.
He is punching a hole in the ship at 2.2x the rate of his playing time.
Compare that to Desmond Bane, who has been rough (-19). Bane plays 36.5% of those minutes but only accounts for 24% of the negative points. Bane is struggling; Jones is actively destructive.
It's not "fixating on a bum." It's looking at the data and seeing that if you simply replaced his minutes with a replacement-level neutral player (like Jamal Cain), the team's Net Points would improve. The "systemic" issues you listed are real, but Jones exacerbates every single one of them rather than solving them as a backup PG is supposed to do.

[JoshuaPotter]

"easiest target" because he's the "obvious target".

He averages 2,5 shots a game

I even played dumb game: what would happen if Jones made 1 more shot in each and every game he was part of ( took his 9-35 = 25,7% FG to 23-38 = 58% FG). In games where he had 0 FGA, i added him 1 FGM / 1 FGA.

And... only game that would actually ended different is Houston game, due OT .


Truth is, Magic are still pretty terrible team in terms of shooting, and reality of situation is same as last year:
1) no playmaking
2) no much dribble penetration due fact guards can't break first lines of defense
3) reverting back to slow pace that kills flow
4) whole bunch of crappy shooter
5) isolation heavy offense that is easy to adjust and defend


Jones is, like Zaymon said, new Gary Harris. Fans LOVE to fixate on irrelavant bum off bench to pin blame, that guy is always: bit older, isn't drafted by team and didn't spent much time with team in past. It's always done by default, to deflect potential blame from fan favorites. I just find such behavior childish.

Magic just spent all draft picks to "fix" offense, gave Banchero max contract based on OF production and Magic are.... drumroll:
20# ranked offense . Top 10 worst lowest 3 FGA taking and top 10 worst 3 point accuracy team

But yea...Tyus Jones and 9,5% usage is to blame

Magic crappy offense is result of complete lack of point guards.
Jones is backup PG. But never used as such. Because Franz and Banchero are terrible fit, and Mose is staggering min between them. By doing so, one always plays with bench. But in such situations, as usual, that guy has the ball all the time, and just endless ISOs are ran for him.

Usage rate measures who ends the possession, not who is killing the lineup. You can have 0% usage and still tank the team by being a pylon on defense or a complete non-factor that ruins spacing.
The "he only takes 2.5 shots" argument ignores that we are getting crushed specifically when he is on the floor.
The Magic as a team are +24 Net Points on the season.
Tyus Jones is -25 Net Points.
He is effectively negating the entire positive impact of Franz Wagner (+24) by himself. I looked at the efficiency of the "negative" contributors on this roster (the guys with minus ratings), and Jones is in a league of his own:
Share of Negative Minutes: Jones plays 14.3% of the minutes among the negative group.
Share of Negative Points: Jones is responsible for 31.6% of the negative net points.
He is punching a hole in the ship at 2.2x the rate of his playing time.
Compare that to Desmond Bane, who has been rough (-19). Bane plays 36.5% of those minutes but only accounts for 24% of the negative points. Bane is struggling; Jones is actively destructive.
It's not "fixating on a bum." It's looking at the data and seeing that if you simply replaced his minutes with a replacement-level neutral player (like Jamal Cain), the team's Net Points would improve. The "systemic" issues you listed are real, but Jones exacerbates every single one of them rather than solving them as a backup PG is supposed to do.

I'll give a short version of your post.

If we gave Tyus jersey to a law chair and subbed the chair in. He would have a 0% usage rate. By the OP logic that "wouldn't contribute to losing" but the point being made is : saying going 4 vs 5 on defense and 4 vs 5 on offense means the chair would give negative impact.

Basically I am making a point for the next Air Bud movie. I am confident an agile properly trained Golden retriever could smoke Tyus net rating.

[Idiosyncratic]

Guy has 9,5% usage rate
If you think he is reason why Magic are playing mediocre really don't know what to tell you



He is simply easiest target, has no deeper connection with fans, team or FO.

Problem is that most people are victims of own expectations from this season.

I mean I personally agree that we have a flawed team and probably aren't that good even if he was playing average, but we are still getting extra destroyed when he is on the court, that is a fact.

It's a two things can be true situation. Is he the biggest problem keeping us from being elite? No. Has he been the worst player on the team and is a problem that is losing us some games? Absolutely. I don't really think there's any other way of looking at it.

We are getting killed every time he is on the court to this point, he is unable to score or defend. He's been a problem. We have a ton of other problems, but it doesn't mean he isn't one.

I don't disagree with the overall theme that he isn't our biggest problem, I'm not some apologist that thinks this team is replacing him away from being really good ( I don't think anyone is saying that fwiw). But the dude has worse numbers than Bronny. He is going to be a target and is an obvious first option to try and replace. Obviously they can replace him and still suck because he is just a bench player, but doesn't mean you stick with someone playing like that.

I do also agree that the replacement problems probably aren't great right now. I'm not blaming Mose too hard for sticking with him. But reality is if this keeps up much longer they will have to try anything else, he is absolutely killing them when he is on the floor right now. I'm not going to be mad at fans for being upset at someone like that being in the rotation just because we have other glaring issues as well.

Hopefully he can turn it around, if he can't just try anything else. That's all people are saying.

[pepe1991]

Guy has 9,5% usage rate
If you think he is reason why Magic are playing mediocre really don't know what to tell you



He is simply easiest target, has no deeper connection with fans, team or FO.

Problem is that most people are victims of own expectations from this season.

I mean I personally agree that we have a flawed team and probably aren't that good even if he was playing average, but we are still getting extra destroyed when he is on the court, that is a fact.

It's a two things can be true situation. Is he the biggest problem keeping us from being elite? No. Has he been the worst player on the team and is a problem that is losing us some games? Absolutely. I don't really think there's any other way of looking at it.

We are getting killed every time he is on the court to this point, he is unable to score or defend. He's been a problem. We have a ton of other problems, but it doesn't mean he isn't one.

I don't disagree with the overall theme that he isn't our biggest problem, I'm not some apologist that thinks this team is replacing him away from being really good ( I don't think anyone is saying that fwiw). But the dude has worse numbers than Bronny. He is going to be a target and is an obvious first option to try and replace. Obviously they can replace him and still suck because he is just a bench player, but doesn't mean you stick with someone playing like that.

I do also agree that the replacement problems probably aren't great right now. I'm not blaming Mose too hard for sticking with him. But reality is if this keeps up much longer they will have to try anything else, he is absolutely killing them when he is on the floor right now. I'm not going to be mad at fans for being upset at someone like that being in the rotation just because we have other glaring issues as well.

Hopefully he can turn it around, if he can't just try anything else. That's all people are saying.

13 games of Isaac = actual plus minus of - 48
14 games of Black = actual plus minus - 51
14 games of Jones = actual plus minus of - 68



Jones sucks, i'm not defending him. But he is niche role player and is taken only role he is good at, for role he isn't equipped to play. Now everybody acts surprised that he sucks. Self inflicted.

Let's put it up this way: lot of high lottery Magic draft picks are hiding behind bums. Bums change, they continue to hide. When it's time to ask some actual production from your high lottery picks?

Jonathan Isaac -16,4 net rating = $15M a year
Jett Howard = not even kept for 4th year = wasted lottery pick
Anthony Black = -4,5 net rating, 6th overall pick

Accountability. Jones is nobody. Jones can be gone today. But won't. Because it would put actual expectations on players who are being protected all the time.

[eyriq]

Guy has 9,5% usage rate
If you think he is reason why Magic are playing mediocre really don't know what to tell you



He is simply easiest target, has no deeper connection with fans, team or FO.

Problem is that most people are victims of own expectations from this season.

I mean I personally agree that we have a flawed team and probably aren't that good even if he was playing average, but we are still getting extra destroyed when he is on the court, that is a fact.

It's a two things can be true situation. Is he the biggest problem keeping us from being elite? No. Has he been the worst player on the team and is a problem that is losing us some games? Absolutely. I don't really think there's any other way of looking at it.

We are getting killed every time he is on the court to this point, he is unable to score or defend. He's been a problem. We have a ton of other problems, but it doesn't mean he isn't one.

I don't disagree with the overall theme that he isn't our biggest problem, I'm not some apologist that thinks this team is replacing him away from being really good ( I don't think anyone is saying that fwiw). But the dude has worse numbers than Bronny. He is going to be a target and is an obvious first option to try and replace. Obviously they can replace him and still suck because he is just a bench player, but doesn't mean you stick with someone playing like that.

I do also agree that the replacement problems probably aren't great right now. I'm not blaming Mose too hard for sticking with him. But reality is if this keeps up much longer they will have to try anything else, he is absolutely killing them when he is on the floor right now. I'm not going to be mad at fans for being upset at someone like that being in the rotation just because we have other glaring issues as well.

Hopefully he can turn it around, if he can't just try anything else. That's all people are saying.

I legitimately think his minutes explain the majority of our struggles and that eliminating his minutes is a real and impactful fix.

[pepe1991]

Gary Harris is a dumb comparison, his role was to defend and he did that very well. And even when he was recording several 0 points games in a row his impact stats were fine.

Tyus is supposed to playmake and be an efficient scorer on a limited volume but he is doing none of this. Him passing up easy shots is also a problem for the offense since it usually leads to tougher shots for his teammates. And he is also even worse on defence than expected. His impact stats are disastrous no matter who he plays with.

How is player supposed to "playmake" with 9,5% usage rate and just 6 touches per game less than Goga Bitadze?

I tried to track down his pick&roll action. Guess what? Below 10 possessions isn't even in nba.com table. Guess who wasn't there?

Whole situation is silly. He spents almost all his min with some of worst floor spacing killers nba has, and is being stripped from a ball.

Oh no, now defenders actually guard his shots, given he plays with Isaac and Goga who are useless 1 feet away from rim?



Gary Harris role was to defend and shoot 3s. Yet very same Harris had 32/48 games where 2 or less 3s a game
Matter of fact Gary Harris shot 1 or less shots every third game (not 3, but FGA).

And ofc he was scapegoat for lot of problems. Sometimes rightfully so, sometimes because he was distraction of real problems.
Jones and Magic fans now have same relationship. Reddit is full of "cut Jones" posts & topics.

I don't even care, cut him. But what was point of adding backup PLAYMAKER than taking ball away from him?

[Idiosyncratic]

13 games of Isaac = actual plus minus of - 48
14 games of Black = actual plus minus - 51
14 games of Jones = actual plus minus of - 68



Jones sucks, i'm not defending him. But he is niche role player and is taken only role he is good at, for role he isn't equipped to play. Now everybody acts surprised that he sucks. Self inflicted.

Let's put it up this way: lot of high lottery Magic draft picks are hiding behind bums. Bums change, they continue to hide. When it's time to ask some actual production from your high lottery picks?

Jonathan Isaac -16,4 net rating = $15M a year
Jett Howard = not even kept for 4th year = wasted lottery pick
Anthony Black = -4,5 net rating, 6th overall pick

Accountability. Jones is nobody. Jones can be gone today. But won't. Because it would put actual expectations on players who are being protected all the time.

I don't disagree with this. I agree we have a bunch of issues-- systemic and personnel related. I mean that is part of the reason we are even still playing Tyus, lack of other trusted options. Not even to mention Suggs' injury history also being an issue and the fact that he has to rest and be on a minutes limit. Definitely a ton of issues at play.

[Idiosyncratic]

I legitimately think his minutes explain the majority of our struggles and that eliminating his minutes is a real and impactful fix.

I don't agree that it is the majority, but I do agree it would make an impact. It is hard to overstate how bad he has been to this point.

I think the bench as a whole is a problem and is still going to be pretty mediocre if he is removed for a bad instead of all-world bad player. That being said I do agree that the degree of bad that he has been is so high that replacing him would make at least somewhat meaningful gains.

I'm also not convinced starting lineup is going to stay at or near the top of net rating either though. Good thing is the East maybe could be won by who figures it out come playoff time so I'm really not too too worried about seeding. Though I suppose a team like the Pistons could make a big midseason move and change that. Then you gotta play the Thunder in the finals though so what are we even doing here

It's all meaningless just play Jase over Tyus for the fun factor

[eyriq]

I legitimately think his minutes explain the majority of our struggles and that eliminating his minutes is a real and impactful fix.

I don't agree that it is the majority, but I do agree it would make an impact. It is hard to overstate how bad he has been to this point.

I think the bench as a whole is a problem and is still going to be pretty mediocre if he is removed for a bad instead of all-world bad player. That being said I do agree that the degree of bad that he has been is so high that replacing him would make at least somewhat meaningful gains.

I'm also not convinced starting lineup is going to stay at or near the top of net rating either though. Good thing is the East maybe could be won by who figures it out come playoff time so I'm really not too too worried about seeding. Though I suppose a team like the Pistons could make a big midseason move and change that. Then you gotta play the Thunder in the finals though so what are we even doing here It's all meaningless just play Jase over Tyus for the fun factor

Assumption 1: This team is a contender
Assumption 2: Tyus is struggling mostly because of talent and skill drop off

We have not looked like a contender and Tyus is meaningfully hurting the minutes he's in. He's the root cause and it's because he sucks.

You can wring your hands about the core fit, I reject that because:

1. They won 47 games 22 and younger while leading the team in minutes and usage (notice the irony here, pepe?).
2. They've over-performed expectations in the playoffs
3. They are killing their minutes together this year and have done so historically (we've always had a strong starting lineup with Paolo/Franz/Suggs)
4. Bane is really good

Occam's razor, it's Tyus

[Idiosyncratic]

I legitimately think his minutes explain the majority of our struggles and that eliminating his minutes is a real and impactful fix.

I don't agree that it is the majority, but I do agree it would make an impact. It is hard to overstate how bad he has been to this point.

I think the bench as a whole is a problem and is still going to be pretty mediocre if he is removed for a bad instead of all-world bad player. That being said I do agree that the degree of bad that he has been is so high that replacing him would make at least somewhat meaningful gains.

I'm also not convinced starting lineup is going to stay at or near the top of net rating either though. Good thing is the East maybe could be won by who figures it out come playoff time so I'm really not too too worried about seeding. Though I suppose a team like the Pistons could make a big midseason move and change that. Then you gotta play the Thunder in the finals though so what are we even doing here It's all meaningless just play Jase over Tyus for the fun factor

Assumption 1: This team is a contender
Assumption 2: Tyus is struggling mostly because of talent and skill drop off

We have not looked like a contender and Tyus is meaningfully hurting the minutes he's in. He's the root cause and it's because he sucks.

You can wring your hands about the core fit, I reject that because:

1. They won 47 games 22 and younger while leading the team in minutes and usage (notice the irony here, pepe?).
2. They've over-performed expectations in the playoffs
3. They are killing their minutes together this year and have done so historically (we've always had a strong starting lineup with Paolo/Franz/Suggs)
4. Bane is really good

Occam's razor, it's Tyus

I appreciate the optimism, but I can see why VFX and pepe want to go against the grain on the Tyus hate with posts like this

I am on board in agreeing Tyus has been a massive problem though. And I have enjoyed watching games more lately and have gotten some of my joy back in watching this team. I think we can be good, but I still need to see a lot more.