Are people lower on Cooper Flagg?

[Myth]

I viewed him as a high level prospect. Not Wemby level, but high level.

[dirkdiggler4177]

[Last night was hopeless, though. Coming off an overtime win and missing 3 starting centers.

In a way, I disagree. Last night, the Bulls were on a road back to back in Denver, after playing double overtime the night before, while missing both Coby White and their backup PG (Tre Jones). And Denver shot better on 3s than Minnesota did against Dallas. But instead of being blown out, the Bulls won.

But in another way, I fully agree with you -- because Dallas has Jason Kidd as coach. The Mavs are playing with the 2nd fastest pace in the NBA this season and the Bulls are 8th. Yet the Mavs have failed to score 110 points in 8 games, including 4 with AD, and the Bulls have never failed to hit that mark. A talent difference? Nah. Besides Giddey, who is undeniably good, the Bulls are starting Okoro (trash), Huerter (journeyman), Vuc (no trade value), and Buzelis (a promising kid but largely invisible). The bench consists of two good players (Tre and Ayo Dosunmu) and then a bunch of summer signing level guys -- Jevon Carter, Dalen Terry, Jalen Smith, Pat Williams, Julian Phillips.

The difference in coaching is night and day. The Bulls have a good and recognizable offensive plan no matter who is on the floor. Whereas with Dallas, as far as I can tell Kidd just rolls the ball out and the guys do what they want.

I'll only give Kidd a pass for this season because Dallas does not need to be winning games this season. He definitely got used to just letting Luka run the offense himself, though. Kidd never had a top 5 offense with the Mavs despite having Luka though, Rick Carlisle had the #1 offense with Luka in 2020. That's a coaching fail

Dallas fans' expectations on Flagg this season were way too high. They think he's supposed to replace Luka, that certainly was never going to happen right away. They also had the rare time where the rookie before Flagg actually made a huge impact, but Dereck Lively was put in the perfect situation for him at the time (not so great now with Luka gone), Flagg landed in a bad situation

What were those teams' defense placements?

[MrGoat]

In a way, I disagree. Last night, the Bulls were on a road back to back in Denver, after playing double overtime the night before, while missing both Coby White and their backup PG (Tre Jones). And Denver shot better on 3s than Minnesota did against Dallas. But instead of being blown out, the Bulls won.

But in another way, I fully agree with you -- because Dallas has Jason Kidd as coach. The Mavs are playing with the 2nd fastest pace in the NBA this season and the Bulls are 8th. Yet the Mavs have failed to score 110 points in 8 games, including 4 with AD, and the Bulls have never failed to hit that mark. A talent difference? Nah. Besides Giddey, who is undeniably good, the Bulls are starting Okoro (trash), Huerter (journeyman), Vuc (no trade value), and Buzelis (a promising kid but largely invisible). The bench consists of two good players (Tre and Ayo Dosunmu) and then a bunch of summer signing level guys -- Jevon Carter, Dalen Terry, Jalen Smith, Pat Williams, Julian Phillips.

The difference in coaching is night and day. The Bulls have a good and recognizable offensive plan no matter who is on the floor. Whereas with Dallas, as far as I can tell Kidd just rolls the ball out and the guys do what they want.

I'll only give Kidd a pass for this season because Dallas does not need to be winning games this season. He definitely got used to just letting Luka run the offense himself, though. Kidd never had a top 5 offense with the Mavs despite having Luka though, Rick Carlisle had the #1 offense with Luka in 2020. That's a coaching fail

Dallas fans' expectations on Flagg this season were way too high. They think he's supposed to replace Luka, that certainly was never going to happen right away. They also had the rare time where the rookie before Flagg actually made a huge impact, but Dereck Lively was put in the perfect situation for him at the time (not so great now with Luka gone), Flagg landed in a bad situation

What were those teams' defense placements?

21st last year, 18th in the year they went to the Finals (there is context needed there), 24th the year before, 6th in Kidd's first year. Boston won the title with the #1 offense. So they've failed to have a top 5 offense or defense in Kidd's entire tenure, that might change this year though because the Mavs currently have the #3 defense. OKC would've gone down to the Pacers if Haliburton didn't get injured. Offense wins championships

[audiosway]

Exactly, nobody will ever accuse Luka of being a 2-way player... That's why the Lakers can't contend with Luka.
Luka reached the NBA Finals because Dallas had the best defense in the NBA (in the 2nd half of that season) so Luka could be Luka.
Whereas Flagg will play a starring role both offensively and defensively, and his scoring appears headed for 18-20ppg this season.
Prime Flagg will be 25+ppg and MVP trophies, because he's an athletic 2-way player.

I didn't say the Lakers can't contend with Luka. They will win titles with Luka. Mark my words. Also, no one is saying Coop will be an MVP either. That's a stretch. He has a long way to go before he gets there.

Luka's lack of defense is vastly overblown. He isn't a lock down defender but he's definitely not a traffic cone either.

The problem with Luka, and it was the same with Harden in Houston, is that they do so much on offense that they are allowed to pause on defense. It is not about whether they are good defenders or not; it is about having the energy to defend. Luka can step up when it matters in the 4th.

The problem with this is that in today's NBA, the talent levels are so high that it will get you burned. The offensive schemes are more and more complex. It's not like before, where you could put Kobe on Bruce Bowen and those two would just stand in the corner together.

As good as Luka is, right now he looks more like Iverson, Barkley, and Harden than Curry, Giannis, and Kawhi Leonard. This can obviously change, though


Just an example of Luka chilling too much

Watch on YouTube

And under J Kidd I agree. However, the schemes that JJ is running in LA has him in a better position to help on D. He is actually playing to Luka's IQ and putting him in position to hawk on passing lanes. He is starting to have games here and there down around a 100-105 defensive rating which is fairly respectable. We'll see how it goes as the season goes on. But, if he can keep his effort consistent he will be at least an average defender. A lot of it also depends on how much he has to work on the offensive end of things as well.

I agree it's totally about the energy levels. He already seems to have more energy this year due to having lost weight and working on his body more.

[Handlez]

Watch the games.

He's iced out by shot happy vets with egos and future contract motivation.

Same happened with Luka but they shipped out anyone not on the Luka train his rookie season.

Dallas needs to trade a few guys and let Coop develop as a #1 even though it may not be pretty at times. Mavs suck anyway.

[Mirotic12]

Why did Kidd get extended last month? He was never a good coach, I dunno how he still has a job

They could easily find hundreds of better coaches in Europe. Their management is beyond lazy.

Nba teams never hire foreign coaches that havent been coaching in the US on any level previously. Its a different system (a players league if you will), and I dont think players would respect a coach that doesnt speak near perfect or perfect english. Players wouldnt react well to Ataman or Obradovic screaming at them non stop at all since they make too much money

Ataman and Obradovic aren't really the top coaches in Europe. There are better and younger coaches than them. Some of them also played in the NBA, like Jasikevicius and Spanoulis.

[MavsDirk41]

Watch the games.

He's iced out by shot happy vets with egos and future contract motivation.

Same happened with Luka but they shipped out anyone not on the Luka train his rookie season.

Dallas needs to trade a few guys and let Coop develop as a #1 even though it may not be pretty at times. Mavs suck anyway.

100% agree with this. Getting tired of watching Williams, Russell, and Thompson brick shot after shot just for their own benefit.

[DoItALL9]

Is it bad or a letdown if Copper Flagg is the equivalent of Scottie Barnes?

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[Jakay]

Is it bad or a letdown if Copper Flagg is the equivalent of Scottie Barnes?

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Is your post dumb or just stupid?

Not a terrible compoarison though.

[FrodoBaggins]

Is it bad or a letdown if Copper Flagg is the equivalent of Scottie Barnes?

Sent from my moto g - 2025 using RealGM mobile app

Yeah. Scottie lacks the shooting and scoring bag to get past that 20 ppg ceiling he's been stuck at for a while now. You'd hope Cooper has Tatum/LBJ kind of volume as a scorer. In that 25-30 range, median of 27.5 or so.

Also, Barnes racks up blocks & steals, but I wouldn't rate him as highly as Cooper projects to be on defense. Hell, I think Flagg is a better defender right now. Scottie's got amazing physical tools (7'2.75" wingspan, 9'0" standing reach, 36" standing vertical, 39.5" max vertical), but he doesn't move as well as Coop or is as preternaturally strong. But the cognition (IQ, awareness, decision-making) is what separates them the most.

[elchengue20]

People shouldn't be down on him.

He's been showing promising signs for such difficult situation he's been put on as a 18 year old.

He's going to be at least a Scottie Barnes with a better jump shot. That's an awesome player and the best White American since Larry Bird. And there is a decent chance he end ups as a Jayson Tatum caliber player.

[atlantabbq99]

People shouldn't be down on him.

He's been showing promising signs for such difficult situation he's been put on as a 18 year old.

He's going to be at least a Scottie Barnes with a better jump shot. That's an awesome player and the best White American since Larry Bird. And there is a decent chance he end ups as a Jayson Tatum caliber player.

i agree, he is a solid NBA prospect. high floor, low ceiling, he will be some where between Barnes, KMart, or Shareef Abdur-Rahim, long career with 1 to 3 all star appearances. its the delusional fan boys who get in a hissy fit when you say Flagg is not the next Lebron or Duncan or gen talent...

[MrGoat]

Watch the games.

He's iced out by shot happy vets with egos and future contract motivation.

Same happened with Luka but they shipped out anyone not on the Luka train his rookie season.

Dallas needs to trade a few guys and let Coop develop as a #1 even though it may not be pretty at times. Mavs suck anyway.

100% agree with this. Getting tired of watching Williams, Russell, and Thompson brick shot after shot just for their own benefit.

To be fair Thompson needs to hit some shots to even make himself tradable out of the Dallas craphole and he was relatively hot the last three games before Minnesota. It's a tough tightrope to balance raising some guys trade value while getting Flagg involved at the same time

[bonita_the_frog]

Cooper "the ultimate male" Flagg's 3pt% has now overtaken Rookie LeBron, and his fg% and rebounds are easily ahead, his turnovers are nice and low.
And yes i know LeBron played in a different era, but Ultimate Male is on target o have a statistically better rookie season than LeBron.

[tsherkin]

Cooper "the ultimate male" Flagg's 3pt% has now overtaken Rookie LeBron, and his fg% and rebounds are easily ahead, his turnovers are nice and low.
And yes i know LeBron played in a different era, but Ultimate Male is on target o have a statistically better rookie season than LeBron.

He's shooting 29.3% from 3, taking 13.2 FGA/g and his FG% is 45.5% versus Lebron's at 41.7% while taking 18.9 FGA/g on a much worse team, so I don't know that I'd be crowing about that right now.

Cooper's doing well, and he's trending up, but comparing him to Lebron playing in the league 22 years ago by way of raw stats is probably not the thing to do.

[johannking]

I think he is an allstar by year 3. He has great flexibility, burst, body control, great size, great instincts, and plays the right way.

[bonita_the_frog]

Cooper "the ultimate male" Flagg's 3pt% has now overtaken Rookie LeBron, and his fg% and rebounds are easily ahead, his turnovers are nice and low.
And yes i know LeBron played in a different era, but Ultimate Male is on target o have a statistically better rookie season than LeBron.

He's shooting 29.3% from 3, taking 13.2 FGA/g and his FG% is 45.5% versus Lebron's at 41.7% while taking 18.9 FGA/g on a much worse team, so I don't know that I'd be crowing about that right now.

Cooper's doing well, and he's trending up, but comparing him to Lebron playing in the league 22 years ago by way of raw stats is probably not the thing to do.

Yep i said "And yes i know LeBron played in a different era" but looks like he's going to have a better rookie season than LeBron statistically.
Cooper averaging more fg% .455 vs. LeBron .417
Cooper averaging more ft% .783 vs. LeBron .754
Cooper averaging more rebounds 6.3 vs. LeBron 5.5
Cooper averaging less turnovers 2.2 vs. LeBron 3.5

And the 3pt%, steals and blocks are all a wash!!
LeBron still leads in scoring and assists, but i think Cooper can get to 4.0 or 4.5 assists so LeBron still will lead that but not a blowout!
And Cooper's scoring is currently 15.5 and trending up, so might get close to LeBron's 20.9, or at least get to 18ppg...

So not saying Cooper will have a better rookie season than LeBron, but in raw stats it will be close if my calculations are correct.

[tsherkin]

Yep i said "And yes i know LeBron played in a different era" but looks like he's going to have a better rookie season than LeBron statistically.
Cooper averaging more fg% .455 vs. LeBron .417
Cooper averaging more ft% .783 vs. LeBron .754
Cooper averaging more rebounds 6.3 vs. LeBron 5.5
Cooper averaging less turnovers 2.2 vs. LeBron 3.5

And the 3pt%, steals and blocks are all a wash!!

So you acknowledge the era differences, but pay no attention to role or usage, and immediately return to raw stats. So let's have a look at that a little more reasonably.

It's obvious Flagg is better from the FT line, so that's a point in his favor so far. I think, in general, he's got more of a J than did young Lebron.

Flagg right now is at 97 FG+, 95 2P+ and 82 3P+. Lebron was at 95 FG+, 95 2P+ and 84 3P+. Not a huge difference, speaking in terms relative to their eras. Flagg shooting +0.3% from 3 doesn't really mean anything. USG? 20.8% for Flagg, 28.2% for Lebron. Noteworthy difference.

So not saying Cooper will have a better rookie season than LeBron, but in raw stats it will be close if my calculations are correct.

Sure, the raw stats are similar. It's sort of a useless comparison, though, because they weren't playing in the same circumstances. The Mavs are a better team than were the Cavs, and Flagg isn't being asked to carry a comparable load on offense, while he is also playing in a better-spaced, faster era. That directly affects things like raw percentages, and even still, he isn't notably outperforming Lebron relative to era markers.

[The Master]

Yep i said "And yes i know LeBron played in a different era" but looks like he's going to have a better rookie season than LeBron statistically.
Cooper averaging more fg% .455 vs. LeBron .417
Cooper averaging more ft% .783 vs. LeBron .754
Cooper averaging more rebounds 6.3 vs. LeBron 5.5
Cooper averaging less turnovers 2.2 vs. LeBron 3.5

And the 3pt%, steals and blocks are all a wash!!
LeBron still leads in scoring and assists, but i think Cooper can get to 4.0 or 4.5 assists so LeBron still will lead that but not a blowout!
And Cooper's scoring is currently 15.5 and trending up, so might get close to LeBron's 20.9, or at least get to 18ppg...

So not saying Cooper will have a better rookie season than LeBron, but in raw stats it will be close if my calculations are correct.

Nope.

In 2003/04 season, LeBron was:

13th in points per game
13th in assists per game
36th in VORP
56th in BPM
-2.4 rTS scorer

This is basically an equivalent of 24-6 on 56TS% on heavy minutes in today's game. If you believe that currently a talent pool is much better, you can adjust it whatever you want, but it doesn't make too much sense to compare raw stats of a player from 2004 to the player from 2026, considering that 2004 was the lowest offensive point of the NBA in the XXI century (102.9 ORTG avg). Kobe in 2004 was 5th in the MVP voting and averaged 24-6-5 on 55TS%, so it should put into perspective what LeBron's 21-6-6 on 49TS% really meant at that time.

Flagg, expectedly, is nowhere near LeBron as an 18/19yo.

[bdp31770]

Thank you for posting that. Does it factor in that Lebron played almost 6 more minutes per game than Flagg is?