Can we admit the obvious yet? Jokic is the greatest offensive player ever

[Fadeaway_Jumper]

The greatest offensive player ever wouldn’t get shut down by a player 6 inches shorter than him in Alex Caruso

[EmpireFalls]

Again, the greatest offensive players of all time have made Swiss cheese of elite playoff defenses multiple times.

Jokic to this point of his career has not.

Why is this so controversial to all of you? Do you know who Michael Jordan is? Steph Curry? LeBron James? Magic Johnson? Do you know what these guys proved in the postseason? Jokic has not proved it to their level yet in the playoffs.

[AleksandarN]

Why hasn’t he had elite playoff offensive results?

This is disappointing from you OP. Spend all day defending LeBron and then just give up and impromptu admit Jokic is better offensively because he puts up some nice box score numbers? What happened to your passion?

nah put some effort into ur argument or get out.

name a playoff series he was favored in and should have won but didn't. then compare the amount of series he's lost as a favorite and compare that to the amount of times other all time greats have lost as favorites. is he average, worse, or better than others. i dont wanna spoil it the answer for u

My argument is exceptionally simple:

The offensive GOAT needs to have lead more than one elite offensive playoff run by age 30. Jokic box score stats while impressive have not produced elite playoff offensive results for his team EVEN when only filtering for his on-court offensive rating.

The offensive GOAT is a player so unstoppable that his team offense is unstoppable in a playoff setting. Why do I argue this way? Because the REAL offensive GOATs have proven this over and over again.

Steph, LeBron, Jordan, Magic, Bird all had multiple and counting under their belts by this age.

How many of those goats had all time teammates? Hofers? All nba players, all nba defensive team players, all stars even? The one time Jokic had a player performing to that level he won the chip. You are easy work.

[EmpireFalls]

If it is so “obvious” that Jokic is CLEARLY greater offensively than all these demigods who came before him, why is the argument in his favor a bunch of “if” statements and hypotheticals about not having enough help.

Doesn’t seem “obvious” whatsoever.

Again, if Jokic proves it for the next 6-7 years that he can lead consistently elite playoff offenses, I’ll happily call him the offensive GOAT. Because that’s exactly what the actual offensive GOATs have done. He hasn’t.

[Raps in 4]

So you're only defining him by being the best due to his box score only? As long as he gets gaudy numbers he's auto the best?

Yeah. The question isn't "what is the greatest offensive team ever?" but "who is the greatest offensive player ever?"

Then why not Curry over Jokic if that's the case? Curry's offensive gravity has had a much larger effect than Jokic's has, if we're being honest.

Curry is absolutely in the discussion for GOAT offensive player.

[bovice]

My argument is exceptionally simple:

The offensive GOAT needs to have lead more than one elite offensive playoff run by age 30. Jokic box score stats while impressive have not produced elite playoff offensive results for his team EVEN when only filtering for his on-court offensive rating.

The offensive GOAT is a player so unstoppable that his team offense is unstoppable in a playoff setting. Why do I argue this way? Because the REAL offensive GOATs have proven this over and over again.

Steph, LeBron, Jordan, Magic, Bird all had multiple and counting under their belts by this age.

you don't win in the playoffs unless you have a strong supporting cast. jordan doesn't win w/o pippen. shaq doesn't win w/o kobe. lebron doesn't win w/o wade/kyrie. bird doesn't win w/o mchale. if ur argument is that jokic didn't win with will barton and monte morris so he's eliminated from the conversation i don't really know what to say....

You may not win but you can produce elite offensive results as the offensive GOAT. And I’m not talking about 2021 or 2022 even.

2024 and 2025 Denver’s playoff offense with him on the floor was below league average. Yes, really. 2025 Denver w/ Jokic ON (111.7 ORTG), they were -1.3 relative to Playoff ORTG league average.

stats aren't my God. jokic took a team that had no business going to 7 games against the eventual champions. had he had a teammate other than Gordon who hurt his hamstring that could hit a 3 he might have even won that series. your stats are going to suffer when you overextend yourself to compensate for the lack of production from your teammates and you take more risks and most of the time you'll end up paying for it. stats don't tell you those things

[AleksandarN]

The greatest offensive player ever wouldn’t get shut down by a player 6 inches shorter than him in Alex Caruso

I can play this game too. The most dominate player ever wouldn’t get swept 6 times in the playoffs.

[AleksandarN]

If it is so “obvious” that Jokic is CLEARLY greater offensively than all these demigods who came before him, why is the argument in his favor a bunch of “if” statements and hypotheticals about not having enough help.

Doesn’t seem “obvious” whatsoever.

Again, if Jokic proves it for the next 6-7 years that he can lead consistently elite playoff offenses, I’ll happily call him the offensive GOAT. Because that’s exactly what the actual offensive GOATs have done. He hasn’t.

Again you bring no context. It is easy to pick apart your logic

[Infinite Llamas]

Again, the greatest offensive players of all time have made Swiss cheese of elite playoff defenses multiple times.

Jokic to this point of his career has not.

Why is this so controversial to all of you? Do you know who Michael Jordan is? Steph Curry? LeBron James? Magic Johnson? Do you know what these guys proved in the postseason? Jokic has not proved it to their level yet in the playoffs.

Do you know who Scottie Pippen is? Kevin Durant? Dwayne Wade or Kyrie Irving? Kareem? Do you know what these guys proved in the postseason?

[EmpireFalls]

If it is so “obvious” that Jokic is CLEARLY greater offensively than all these demigods who came before him, why is the argument in his favor a bunch of “if” statements and hypotheticals about not having enough help.

Doesn’t seem “obvious” whatsoever.

Again, if Jokic proves it for the next 6-7 years that he can lead consistently elite playoff offenses, I’ll happily call him the offensive GOAT. Because that’s exactly what the actual offensive GOATs have done. He hasn’t.

Again you bring no context. It is easy to pick apart your logic

My logic is ironclad.

There is a clear criteria which all the offensive GOAT candidates have met: leading multiple, consistent, elite playoff offenses over and over again. Every single one of them checks this box.

It would be logically inconsistent to waive this criteria and anoint Jokic as offensive GOAT just because I like him. So far, his teams have seen a drop off in their elite RS offense in the playoffs. These are solely facts.

Jokic is easily capable of leading elite playoff offenses, he’s the best player in the world and an offensive savant. I expect that he will do so. But until he does meet this criteria, I cannot call him GOAT.

[bovice]

If it is so “obvious” that Jokic is CLEARLY greater offensively than all these demigods who came before him, why is the argument in his favor a bunch of “if” statements and hypotheticals about not having enough help.

Doesn’t seem “obvious” whatsoever.

Again, if Jokic proves it for the next 6-7 years that he can lead consistently elite playoff offenses, I’ll happily call him the offensive GOAT. Because that’s exactly what the actual offensive GOATs have done. He hasn’t.

Again you bring no context. It is easy to pick apart your logic

My logic is ironclad.

There is a clear criteria which all the offensive GOAT candidates have met: leading multiple, consistent, elite playoff offenses over and over again. Every single one of them checks this box.

It would be logically inconsistent to waive this criteria and anoint Jokic as offensive GOAT just because I like him. So far, his teams have seen a drop off in their elite RS offense in the playoffs. These are solely facts.

Jokic is easily capable of leading elite playoff offenses, he’s the best player in the world and an offensive savant. I expect that he will do so. But until he does meet this criteria, I cannot call him GOAT.

your logic isn't ironclad. you are beholden to numbers. numbers are created by humans so they're limited in what they can communicate. and you worship them still and that is why any argument you make will always be flawed.

[ScrantonBulls]

The greatest offensive player ever wouldn’t get shut down by a player 6 inches shorter than him in Alex Caruso

I can play this game too. The most dominate play ever wouldn’t get swept 6 times in the playoffs.

That didn't happen in the finals so it doesn't count.

[AleksandarN]

If it is so “obvious” that Jokic is CLEARLY greater offensively than all these demigods who came before him, why is the argument in his favor a bunch of “if” statements and hypotheticals about not having enough help.

Doesn’t seem “obvious” whatsoever.

Again, if Jokic proves it for the next 6-7 years that he can lead consistently elite playoff offenses, I’ll happily call him the offensive GOAT. Because that’s exactly what the actual offensive GOATs have done. He hasn’t.

Again you bring no context. It is easy to pick apart your logic

My logic is ironclad.

There is a clear criteria which all the offensive GOAT candidates have met: leading multiple, consistent, elite playoff offenses over and over again. Every single one of them checks this box.

It would be logically inconsistent to waive this criteria and anoint Jokic as offensive GOAT just because I like him. So far, his teams have seen a drop off in their elite RS offense in the playoffs. These are solely facts.

Jokic is easily capable of leading elite playoff offenses, he’s the best player in the world and an offensive savant. I expect that he will do so. But until he does meet this criteria, I cannot call him GOAT.

Elite offense requires elite talent. Every one of the players you mentioned had. Jokic didn’t have nearly the same amount of help since he became an MVP player and when he did they won the championship. Where he led the playoffs in Pts Rebs Assists. You’re easy work bro

[Castle Black]

Again, the greatest offensive players of all time have made Swiss cheese of elite playoff defenses multiple times.

Jokic to this point of his career has not.

Why is this so controversial to all of you? Do you know who Michael Jordan is? Steph Curry? LeBron James? Magic Johnson? Do you know what these guys proved in the postseason? Jokic has not proved it to their level yet in the playoffs.

All those guys had First-Ballot Hall of Famers as their running mates… Magic played with the 3rd greatest player ever in Kareem for a decade, not to mention James Worthy. Mike had Scottie. Steph had prime KD, prime Klay, and Draymond. Lebron had Kyrie, D-Wade, Bosh, Kevin Love, and AD. Jokic has never even had a teammate make a single All-Star team once in his career lol. The one time one of his teammates played like one, he won a ring. He likely rings last year too if any of his teammates could hit the open 3's he was generating for them against OKC. I'm not going to claim Jokic as the offensive GOAT quite yet, but he's absolutely in the conversation.

[AleksandarN]

Again, the greatest offensive players of all time have made Swiss cheese of elite playoff defenses multiple times.

Jokic to this point of his career has not.

Why is this so controversial to all of you? Do you know who Michael Jordan is? Steph Curry? LeBron James? Magic Johnson? Do you know what these guys proved in the postseason? Jokic has not proved it to their level yet in the playoffs.

All those guys had First-Ballot Hall of Famers as their running mates… Magic played with the 3rd greatest player ever in Kareem for a decade, not to mention James Worthy. Mike had Scottie. Steph had prime KD, prime Klay, and Draymond. Lebron had Kyrie, D-Wade, Bosh, and Kevin Love. Jokic has never even had a teammate make a single All-Star team once in his career lol. The one time one of his teammates played like one, he won a ring. He likely rings last year too if any of his teammates could hit the open 3's he was getting them. I'm not going to claim Jokic as the offensive GOAT quite yet, but he's absolutely in the conversation.

I agree

[levon]

Again, the greatest offensive players of all time have made Swiss cheese of elite playoff defenses multiple times.

Jokic to this point of his career has not.

Why is this so controversial to all of you? Do you know who Michael Jordan is? Steph Curry? LeBron James? Magic Johnson? Do you know what these guys proved in the postseason? Jokic has not proved it to their level yet in the playoffs.

All those guys had First-Ballot Hall of Famers as their running mates… Magic played with the 3rd greatest player of all time in Kareem for a decade, not to mention James Worthy. Mike had Scottie. Steph had prime KD and prime Klay. Lebron had Kyrie, D-Wade, Bosh, and Kevin Love. Jokic has never even had a teammate make a single All-Star team once in his career lol. The one time one of his teammates played like one, he won a ring. He likely ring last year too if any of his teammates could hit the open 3's that he got them. I'm not going to claim Jokic as the offensive GOAT quite yet, but he's absolutely in the conversation.

This also coincided with him being in the best shape of his life and running through a historically weak gauntlet. Just saying there were more factors than Jamal Murray that year.

I think people have been way too hard on Jokic's teammates. He's played with a pretty exceptional starting 5 since they got Gordon. Immediately after the 2023 title they were considered the best starting 5 in basketball, and then they suddenly turned into bums. A lot of Jokic stans undersell the starting 5 and a lot of Jokic haters fail to acknowledge the lack of Nuggets' depth. The reality is Jokic doesn't need an exceptional offensive co-star and the most important defensive position is occupied by himself, so there isn't a ton of room on his teams for All-NBA impact from others. What he needs is two-way talent, organization, and intensity and for the most part he's had that in his prime. The Nuggets are one of the most surgical offensive teams I've ever watched, and surely most of that is Jokic but the rest of the team is also incredibly organized. I don't just credit Curry for the other Warriors being so good plug-and-play around him -- I credit Kerr and the Warriors org.

I'd like to also explain why EmpireFalls' argument might be right about Jokic, for three reasons:
1. He's not really an offensive risk-taker. He's hyper-efficient and that lowers raw offensive ceiling in favor of slow, tactical basketball. The other Nuggets then fight this war of attrition on defense while he and Murray try to generate mostly 2 pointers in the halfcourt.
2. He's not a guard so he can't be coming off screens and flinging it. Even though he's skilled, mobile and agile relative to his position, there are still very obvious physical limitations (which also serve as strengths in other ways).
3. He doesn't get to the line enough. This goes back to his body and position imo. Nobody is strong enough to make him look bothered, and he isn't fast enough to get players out of position the way guards can. Because he beats you with size and skill over the top, team send doubles or shade and that's when he hits a shooter, and that's when everybody blames the shooter for missing.

tldr He might be the most efficient offensive player ever but he can't hit those nuclear peaks like Steph could. His game will be appreciated more with the context of longevity even if he never wins another title.

[Mavrelous]

Again, the greatest offensive players of all time have made Swiss cheese of elite playoff defenses multiple times.

Jokic to this point of his career has not.

Why is this so controversial to all of you? Do you know who Michael Jordan is? Steph Curry? LeBron James? Magic Johnson? Do you know what these guys proved in the postseason? Jokic has not proved it to their level yet in the playoffs.

All those guys had First-Ballot Hall of Famers as their running mates… Magic played with the 3rd greatest player ever in Kareem for a decade, not to mention James Worthy. Mike had Scottie. Steph had prime KD, prime Klay, and Draymond. Lebron had Kyrie, D-Wade, Bosh, and Kevin Love. Jokic has never even had a teammate make a single All-Star team once in his career lol. The one time one of his teammates played like one, he won a ring. He likely rings last year too if any of his teammates could hit the open 3's he was getting them against OKC. I'm not going to claim Jokic as the offensive GOAT quite yet, but he's absolutely in the conversation.

Jamal Murray is all star level player and Gordon is an all D level player.
We saw Jokic with actual bad teams, DEN were barely a PO team.
20-21 DEN lost Murray in March, barely beat the Blazere and were swept in the 2nd round.
21-22 Denver no Murray and no MPJ, were barely a PO in a weak western conference and 1st round fodder.
22-24 Denver were a contender and 1st seed/2nd seed.
Jokic was the same the difference was the supporting cast in MPJ and Murray, "non all stars" don't make this kind of difference.

Using the lack of accolades to absolve Jokic of the lack of success is disingenuous.
Jokic prime is 6 years, he didn't have a healthy team in 3 of them, when he had, he won 1, went to the WCF and lost in the 2nd round, last year, he almost took down a 68 wins team, with1 starter injured and the 2nd injured for gane 7, this is a great record, but he needs to provide more if people want to crown him as "obviousely the GOAT offensive player".

[Peregrine01]

Comparing the Nuggets’ offensive rating against playoff average DRTG is comparing apples to oranges because every team is facing a different opponent. The Nuggets were also not a dominant offensive team in either 2024 or 2025 due to their lack of depth.

again, even offensive GOATs require strong offensive talent to produce GOAT-level offense. The other offensive GOATS have all had excellent rosters to generate excellent offense. The only time Jokic came close to having that was in 2023 and the Nuggets cruised to their chip.

I think Jokic is absolutely in the conversation for the “greatest offensive player of all time” and also think that he has more runs left. He’s certainly the most complete offensive player I’ve ever seen.

[Thaddy]

He's by far the best player in the NBA right now. When it's all said and done he could be the GOAT. I see him having a long career.

[Snake3]

Again, the greatest offensive players of all time have made Swiss cheese of elite playoff defenses multiple times.

Jokic to this point of his career has not.

Why is this so controversial to all of you? Do you know who Michael Jordan is? Steph Curry? LeBron James? Magic Johnson? Do you know what these guys proved in the postseason? Jokic has not proved it to their level yet in the playoffs.

All those guys had First-Ballot Hall of Famers as their running mates… Magic played with the 3rd greatest player ever in Kareem for a decade, not to mention James Worthy. Mike had Scottie. Steph had prime KD, prime Klay, and Draymond. Lebron had Kyrie, D-Wade, Bosh, and Kevin Love. Jokic has never even had a teammate make a single All-Star team once in his career lol. The one time one of his teammates played like one, he won a ring. He likely rings last year too if any of his teammates could hit the open 3's he was getting them against OKC. I'm not going to claim Jokic as the offensive GOAT quite yet, but he's absolutely in the conversation.

Jamal Murray is all star level player and Gordon is an all D level player.
We saw Jokic with actual bad teams, DEN were barely a PO team.
20-21 DEN lost Murray in March, barely beat the Blazere and were swept in the 2nd round.
21-22 Denver no Murray and no MPJ, were barely a PO in a weak western conference and 1st round fodder.
22-24 Denver were a contender and 1st seed/2nd seed.
Jokic was the same the difference was the supporting cast in MPJ and Murray, "non all stars" don't make this kind of difference.

Using the lack of accolades to absolve Jokic of the lack of success is disingenuous.
Jokic prime is 6 years, he didn't have a healthy team in 3 of them, when he had, he won 1, went to the WCF and lost in the 2nd round, last year, he almost took down a 68 wins team, with1 starter injured and the 2nd injured for gane 7, this is a great record, but he needs to provide more if people want to crown him as "obviousely the GOAT offensive player".

They are borderline imo. But that shows the talent of the league to me. There are other talented players. Especially in the West. Maybe he could get in the East.

Like this year, Murray might get in cuz of the USA vs World thing. Murray should be able to get in. But if it's regular West vs East, he wouldn't because it's so stacked.

SGA, Luka, Devin Booker, ANT, Steph. Maybe Harden and Austin Reaves might get in before Murray.

In the East, you have Mitchell, Cade, Maxey and Brunson. Josh Giddey maybe, and then maybe Murray.

Don't get me wrong, Jamal Murray is good. It just there are several players I think you can pick above Murray when talking about all-stars. I believe it just shows how talented the league is. I think when Murray plays at his peak, he's like Kyrie level. But he isn't like that all the time and Kyrie is Kyrie all the time. lol