Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right...

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Re: Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right... 

Post#601 » by Texas Chuck » Sun Nov 23, 2025 3:33 pm

chrbal wrote:
jayjaysee wrote:
chrbal wrote:Random thought that doesn’t seem worth a thread. Caleb Martin (Dallas) to Denver for Zeke Nnjai.

Zeke is the cheaper contract and younger player, but Caleb has had mild success at the NBA level.

Neither player is much of a factor on their current team

Who says no?


Zeke isn’t really an NBA player.


I agree. I was just trying to figure out a trade to remove Zeke from Denver’s roster and get someone at least useable. While also getting Zeke on a team that might just take him on to cut costs a little

Inevitability I think Denver just eventually waives Zeke


I don't hate it personally. Probably not quite enough savings to take the total dead weight versus a guy you don't really want to play but can in a pinch. But its close. Martin has been really ineffective and I'm not sure what's happened to his shot but his 3's just look like they have no chance to go in. Jokic can probably make use of him as a cutter or something.
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Re: Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right... 

Post#602 » by Texas Chuck » Sun Nov 23, 2025 3:44 pm

Raptors doing a good job of proving me wrong about their mix. I know its early and I know the starting lineup hasn't great (though a bit better lately), but hey the record is the record. Doesn't matter how just matters who many.

Also, I thought Detroit would fight for a top 4 spot in the East, but Cade has arrived as a franchise level player. I do think they need to find some more shooting by the deadline though. And Jalen Duran is like really good?
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Re: Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right... 

Post#603 » by Jojothewhale » Sun Nov 23, 2025 4:00 pm

I was a big Duren guy in his draft. It's not like I thought he'd be a non-passer, but that aspect of his game is already ahead of where I hoped it could eventually be. That transition bounce pass to Harris early last night is not something I thought he'd ever have in his bag.
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Re: Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right... 

Post#604 » by Texas Chuck » Sun Nov 23, 2025 4:00 pm

AD deals are popular. I don't want to do a whole thread, but I'd put Chicago at the top of the list of suitors and I'd structure the deal as such:

Collins/Huerter/Williams

for

AD/Powell*/Exum*

*These could be replaced with actual useful players as Chicago has interest, just add a touch more compensation.

and then argue over what incentive Chicago owes.
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Re: Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right... 

Post#605 » by brackdan70 » Sun Nov 23, 2025 4:14 pm

Value check : Jordan Walsh.
He’s got 2 years left (including this one) on a partial guaranteed minimum deal.
Former top 15 recruit, 21 years old, getting a shot with the Celtics this year and has earned a spot in the starting lineup and excelling so far.
.500/ .421/ .750 splits with great defense and rebounding.
Jordan Walsh > Lonnie Walker and Charles Bassey
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Re: Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right... 

Post#606 » by oldncreaky » Sun Nov 23, 2025 5:12 pm

Re: Toronto Raptors

The starters are all playing well, and starting to gel. Ingram is reminding people why he made an all-star team, and has been playing far harder on D than I expected or hoped. Scottie Barnes isn't battling hand injuries or trying to be a scorer he's not, but is playing brilliant all-court D and does everything other than score. Poeltl's game fits perfectly for the style of play in vogue because he's very mobile on both ends and rarely makes a mistake. IQ and RJ are doing well too.

But IMO the story of the Raptors so far is the bench, particularly Jamal Shead. (Toronto has a bunch of young wings, but it is the diminutive Shead that leads the bench). Shead watches the first 6 minutes of the game, and then comes in and provides whatever the team needs: POA defence, feeding the hot hand, penetration, creating open 3's, increasing/decreasing the pace, taking a charge, whatever. Classic backup PG stuff, but he's been consistent, and most important in my eyes is the 5.4 assists on only 1.2 turnovers. I'm only half joking when I say that if Shead gets a chance to start, he might not ever lose the spot.

OTOH, the team is ridiculously easy to beat for a good team with the personnel and a half-decent coaching staff. Do you have 3+ rotation big men, and can you keep 2 of them on the floor at all times? If "Yes", then bully the Raptors and dominate the boards. That's it; that's all it takes -- because aside from Poeltl and Barnes the team is too small.

Looking at the EC, Toronto matches up well with most teams, but DET, MIL, NYK and ORL look like bad match-ups who will bully them, and I'd also expect Spoelstra in Miami to win against the Raptors in a playoff series. So all in all, I've upped my estimate of the Raptors from a mediocre roughly .500 team to a team that might top 50 wins in the RS, but still tops out at a 2nd round exit in the playoffs. Can they address this by going into the tax to get a legit backup big? Yes. Will they address this glaring weakness? Doubt it --because the ownership has been cheap.
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Re: Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right... 

Post#607 » by SkyHook » Sun Nov 23, 2025 5:16 pm

brackdan70 wrote:Value check : Jordan Walsh.
He’s got 2 years left (including this one) on a partial guaranteed minimum deal.
Former top 15 recruit, 21 years old, getting a shot with the Celtics this year and has earned a spot in the starting lineup and excelling so far.
.500/ .421/ .750 splits with great defense and rebounding.

I haven't seen him play yet this season—he was a DNP vs the Jazz—but I'd want to see at least a few more months of him performing well above his career levels before deciding that this is anything more than just small sample size theater.
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Re: Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right... 

Post#608 » by Scoot McGroot » Sun Nov 23, 2025 6:34 pm

SkyHook wrote:
brackdan70 wrote:Value check : Jordan Walsh.
He’s got 2 years left (including this one) on a partial guaranteed minimum deal.
Former top 15 recruit, 21 years old, getting a shot with the Celtics this year and has earned a spot in the starting lineup and excelling so far.
.500/ .421/ .750 splits with great defense and rebounding.

I haven't seen him play yet this season—he was a DNP vs the Jazz—but I'd want to see at least a few more months of him performing well above his career levels before deciding that this is anything more than just small sample size theater.



Agreed. It’s just a tiny sample size at this point, and his volume is tiny. Add in that it hasn’t been against a “murderers row”, and it’s likely a “let’s see if this keeps up for a month before we consider it solid”? But it is a good sign, and if he can keep it up, and take enough shots to keep teams honest, he’s playing toward 2nd/multiple 2nd value and a reassess?
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Re: Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right... 

Post#609 » by chrbal » Sun Nov 23, 2025 7:35 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
chrbal wrote:
jayjaysee wrote:
Zeke isn’t really an NBA player.


I agree. I was just trying to figure out a trade to remove Zeke from Denver’s roster and get someone at least useable. While also getting Zeke on a team that might just take him on to cut costs a little

Inevitability I think Denver just eventually waives Zeke


I don't hate it personally. Probably not quite enough savings to take the total dead weight versus a guy you don't really want to play but can in a pinch. But its close. Martin has been really ineffective and I'm not sure what's happened to his shot but his 3's just look like they have no chance to go in. Jokic can probably make use of him as a cutter or something.


Yeah it’s one of those “not important, but I get it trades”. Feels like it would be done if Dallas decided to waive Martin and just wanted to deal him for a cheaper player to cut.

Zeke is just one of those random players that I randomly try to figure out a reasonable way to trade him. Especially with Denver having little draft picks and it not really making sense to trade much assets to get him off the roster
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Re: Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right... 

Post#610 » by jbk1234 » Mon Nov 24, 2025 2:24 pm

brackdan70 wrote:Value check : Jordan Walsh.
He’s got 2 years left (including this one) on a partial guaranteed minimum deal.
Former top 15 recruit, 21 years old, getting a shot with the Celtics this year and has earned a spot in the starting lineup and excelling so far.
.500/ .421/ .750 splits with great defense and rebounding.


"Great" defense?

He's a backup who's starting. If the Celtics found a legitimate starting center for that money, he'd be untouchable given their cap situation. He's worth a second, maybe two at the deadline.
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Re: Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right... 

Post#611 » by Godaddycurse » Mon Nov 24, 2025 3:44 pm

oldncreaky wrote:Re: Toronto Raptors

The starters are all playing well, and starting to gel. Ingram is reminding people why he made an all-star team, and has been playing far harder on D than I expected or hoped. Scottie Barnes isn't battling hand injuries or trying to be a scorer he's not, but is playing brilliant all-court D and does everything other than score. Poeltl's game fits perfectly for the style of play in vogue because he's very mobile on both ends and rarely makes a mistake. IQ and RJ are doing well too.

But IMO the story of the Raptors so far is the bench, particularly Jamal Shead. (Toronto has a bunch of young wings, but it is the diminutive Shead that leads the bench). Shead watches the first 6 minutes of the game, and then comes in and provides whatever the team needs: POA defence, feeding the hot hand, penetration, creating open 3's, increasing/decreasing the pace, taking a charge, whatever. Classic backup PG stuff, but he's been consistent, and most important in my eyes is the 5.4 assists on only 1.2 turnovers. I'm only half joking when I say that if Shead gets a chance to start, he might not ever lose the spot.

OTOH, the team is ridiculously easy to beat for a good team with the personnel and a half-decent coaching staff. Do you have 3+ rotation big men, and can you keep 2 of them on the floor at all times? If "Yes", then bully the Raptors and dominate the boards. That's it; that's all it takes -- because aside from Poeltl and Barnes the team is too small.

Looking at the EC, Toronto matches up well with most teams, but DET, MIL, NYK and ORL look like bad match-ups who will bully them, and I'd also expect Spoelstra in Miami to win against the Raptors in a playoff series. So all in all, I've upped my estimate of the Raptors from a mediocre roughly .500 team to a team that might top 50 wins in the RS, but still tops out at a 2nd round exit in the playoffs. Can they address this by going into the tax to get a legit backup big? Yes. Will they address this glaring weakness? Doubt it --because the ownership has been cheap.


I'd offer TOR 2026 1st for NOP 2026 2nd + Quetas and see if the Celtics bite in a transition year.
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Re: Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right... 

Post#612 » by oldncreaky » Mon Nov 24, 2025 4:15 pm

Godaddycurse wrote:
oldncreaky wrote:Re: Toronto Raptors

The starters are all playing well, and starting to gel. Ingram is reminding people why he made an all-star team, and has been playing far harder on D than I expected or hoped. Scottie Barnes isn't battling hand injuries or trying to be a scorer he's not, but is playing brilliant all-court D and does everything other than score. Poeltl's game fits perfectly for the style of play in vogue because he's very mobile on both ends and rarely makes a mistake. IQ and RJ are doing well too.

But IMO the story of the Raptors so far is the bench, particularly Jamal Shead. (Toronto has a bunch of young wings, but it is the diminutive Shead that leads the bench). Shead watches the first 6 minutes of the game, and then comes in and provides whatever the team needs: POA defence, feeding the hot hand, penetration, creating open 3's, increasing/decreasing the pace, taking a charge, whatever. Classic backup PG stuff, but he's been consistent, and most important in my eyes is the 5.4 assists on only 1.2 turnovers. I'm only half joking when I say that if Shead gets a chance to start, he might not ever lose the spot.

OTOH, the team is ridiculously easy to beat for a good team with the personnel and a half-decent coaching staff. Do you have 3+ rotation big men, and can you keep 2 of them on the floor at all times? If "Yes", then bully the Raptors and dominate the boards. That's it; that's all it takes -- because aside from Poeltl and Barnes the team is too small.

Looking at the EC, Toronto matches up well with most teams, but DET, MIL, NYK and ORL look like bad match-ups who will bully them, and I'd also expect Spoelstra in Miami to win against the Raptors in a playoff series. So all in all, I've upped my estimate of the Raptors from a mediocre roughly .500 team to a team that might top 50 wins in the RS, but still tops out at a 2nd round exit in the playoffs. Can they address this by going into the tax to get a legit backup big? Yes. Will they address this glaring weakness? Doubt it --because the ownership has been cheap.


I'd offer TOR 2026 1st for NOP 2026 2nd + Quetas and see if the Celtics bite in a transition year.


I think Quetta would be OK, but I wouldn't offer a FRP -- especially after he limped off the court last night. In my mind it is kind of binary: either ownership is willing to spend into the tax for a playable backup C, or they are not.

If ownership is willing to go into the tax, they have unused exceptions and an open roster spot. At the TDL that makes them a good trading partner for teams looking to cut salary, and that (plus SRPs) should be enough to get something to augment Mamu as the backup big i.e. add some size to deal with bully-ball teams.

If ownership is not willing to go into the tax, it is a dead issue, and the only move at the deadline will be trying to move one guy (Agbaji? Dick?) to duck the tax, and maybe open up enough room to trawl the GLeague for a 3rd string C.
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Re: Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right... 

Post#613 » by Godaddycurse » Mon Nov 24, 2025 4:36 pm

oldncreaky wrote:
Godaddycurse wrote:
oldncreaky wrote:Re: Toronto Raptors

The starters are all playing well, and starting to gel. Ingram is reminding people why he made an all-star team, and has been playing far harder on D than I expected or hoped. Scottie Barnes isn't battling hand injuries or trying to be a scorer he's not, but is playing brilliant all-court D and does everything other than score. Poeltl's game fits perfectly for the style of play in vogue because he's very mobile on both ends and rarely makes a mistake. IQ and RJ are doing well too.

But IMO the story of the Raptors so far is the bench, particularly Jamal Shead. (Toronto has a bunch of young wings, but it is the diminutive Shead that leads the bench). Shead watches the first 6 minutes of the game, and then comes in and provides whatever the team needs: POA defence, feeding the hot hand, penetration, creating open 3's, increasing/decreasing the pace, taking a charge, whatever. Classic backup PG stuff, but he's been consistent, and most important in my eyes is the 5.4 assists on only 1.2 turnovers. I'm only half joking when I say that if Shead gets a chance to start, he might not ever lose the spot.

OTOH, the team is ridiculously easy to beat for a good team with the personnel and a half-decent coaching staff. Do you have 3+ rotation big men, and can you keep 2 of them on the floor at all times? If "Yes", then bully the Raptors and dominate the boards. That's it; that's all it takes -- because aside from Poeltl and Barnes the team is too small.

Looking at the EC, Toronto matches up well with most teams, but DET, MIL, NYK and ORL look like bad match-ups who will bully them, and I'd also expect Spoelstra in Miami to win against the Raptors in a playoff series. So all in all, I've upped my estimate of the Raptors from a mediocre roughly .500 team to a team that might top 50 wins in the RS, but still tops out at a 2nd round exit in the playoffs. Can they address this by going into the tax to get a legit backup big? Yes. Will they address this glaring weakness? Doubt it --because the ownership has been cheap.


I'd offer TOR 2026 1st for NOP 2026 2nd + Quetas and see if the Celtics bite in a transition year.


I think Quetta would be OK, but I wouldn't offer a FRP -- especially after he limped off the court last night. In my mind it is kind of binary: either ownership is willing to spend into the tax for a playable backup C, or they are not.

If ownership is willing to go into the tax, they have unused exceptions and an open roster spot. At the TDL that makes them a good trading partner for teams looking to cut salary, and that (plus SRPs) should be enough to get something to augment Mamu as the backup big i.e. add some size to deal with bully-ball teams.

If ownership is not willing to go into the tax, it is a dead issue, and the only move at the deadline will be trying to move one guy (Agbaji? Dick?) to duck the tax, and maybe open up enough room to trawl the GLeague for a 3rd string C.


i think they wouldn't go into the tax without seeing what this team looks like in playoffs. We do need to free up some money for re-signing mamu next off season so i think Agbaji is gone regardless
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Re: Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right... 

Post#614 » by ReggiesKnicks » Mon Nov 24, 2025 5:01 pm

oldncreaky wrote:Re: Toronto Raptors

The starters are all playing well, and starting to gel. Ingram is reminding people why he made an all-star team, and has been playing far harder on D than I expected or hoped. Scottie Barnes isn't battling hand injuries or trying to be a scorer he's not, but is playing brilliant all-court D and does everything other than score. Poeltl's game fits perfectly for the style of play in vogue because he's very mobile on both ends and rarely makes a mistake. IQ and RJ are doing well too.

But IMO the story of the Raptors so far is the bench, particularly Jamal Shead. (Toronto has a bunch of young wings, but it is the diminutive Shead that leads the bench). Shead watches the first 6 minutes of the game, and then comes in and provides whatever the team needs: POA defence, feeding the hot hand, penetration, creating open 3's, increasing/decreasing the pace, taking a charge, whatever. Classic backup PG stuff, but he's been consistent, and most important in my eyes is the 5.4 assists on only 1.2 turnovers. I'm only half joking when I say that if Shead gets a chance to start, he might not ever lose the spot.

OTOH, the team is ridiculously easy to beat for a good team with the personnel and a half-decent coaching staff. Do you have 3+ rotation big men, and can you keep 2 of them on the floor at all times? If "Yes", then bully the Raptors and dominate the boards. That's it; that's all it takes -- because aside from Poeltl and Barnes the team is too small.

Looking at the EC, Toronto matches up well with most teams, but DET, MIL, NYK and ORL look like bad match-ups who will bully them, and I'd also expect Spoelstra in Miami to win against the Raptors in a playoff series. So all in all, I've upped my estimate of the Raptors from a mediocre roughly .500 team to a team that might top 50 wins in the RS, but still tops out at a 2nd round exit in the playoffs. Can they address this by going into the tax to get a legit backup big? Yes. Will they address this glaring weakness? Doubt it --because the ownership has been cheap.


This is a great assessment.

The problem with Toronto is that their starting line-up isn't that good. They are +4.1 in ~170 minutes, and without Poeltl, they are -0.9 in about 270 minutes. That is a team that is likely to be destined for a 1st-round exit.

The player they should look to move off of is R.J. Barrett, and using Agbaji as expiring salary ballast can get them a player making upwards of 33 Million to still duck the tax.

Barrett + Agbaji for Vucevic + Okoro could be interesting. Jalen Smith is another target they could consider adding. Perhaps simplifying a deal and doing Agbaji + 2nd(s) for Smith makes some sense as a floor-spacing bench 5.

If Memphis has a fire sale, Santi Aldami is intriguing, as he is on a declining contract starting around 18 million.

Gafford is another interesting bench big who protects the rim, rebounds and pressures the rim in the pick and roll, but a trade with a team so far in the tax isn't tenable as a 2-team deal with Toronto.

Toronto has been a pleasant surprise thus far, but the starting lineup not being the catalyst for their success raises major concerns about how good the team can become by April.
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Re: Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right... 

Post#615 » by Godaddycurse » Mon Nov 24, 2025 5:14 pm

ReggiesKnicks wrote:
oldncreaky wrote:Re: Toronto Raptors

The starters are all playing well, and starting to gel. Ingram is reminding people why he made an all-star team, and has been playing far harder on D than I expected or hoped. Scottie Barnes isn't battling hand injuries or trying to be a scorer he's not, but is playing brilliant all-court D and does everything other than score. Poeltl's game fits perfectly for the style of play in vogue because he's very mobile on both ends and rarely makes a mistake. IQ and RJ are doing well too.

But IMO the story of the Raptors so far is the bench, particularly Jamal Shead. (Toronto has a bunch of young wings, but it is the diminutive Shead that leads the bench). Shead watches the first 6 minutes of the game, and then comes in and provides whatever the team needs: POA defence, feeding the hot hand, penetration, creating open 3's, increasing/decreasing the pace, taking a charge, whatever. Classic backup PG stuff, but he's been consistent, and most important in my eyes is the 5.4 assists on only 1.2 turnovers. I'm only half joking when I say that if Shead gets a chance to start, he might not ever lose the spot.

OTOH, the team is ridiculously easy to beat for a good team with the personnel and a half-decent coaching staff. Do you have 3+ rotation big men, and can you keep 2 of them on the floor at all times? If "Yes", then bully the Raptors and dominate the boards. That's it; that's all it takes -- because aside from Poeltl and Barnes the team is too small.

Looking at the EC, Toronto matches up well with most teams, but DET, MIL, NYK and ORL look like bad match-ups who will bully them, and I'd also expect Spoelstra in Miami to win against the Raptors in a playoff series. So all in all, I've upped my estimate of the Raptors from a mediocre roughly .500 team to a team that might top 50 wins in the RS, but still tops out at a 2nd round exit in the playoffs. Can they address this by going into the tax to get a legit backup big? Yes. Will they address this glaring weakness? Doubt it --because the ownership has been cheap.


This is a great assessment.

The problem with Toronto is that their starting line-up isn't that good. They are +4.1 in ~170 minutes, and without Poeltl, they are -0.9 in about 270 minutes. That is a team that is likely to be destined for a 1st-round exit.

The player they should look to move off of is R.J. Barrett, and using Agbaji as expiring salary ballast can get them a player making upwards of 33 Million to still duck the tax.

Barrett + Agbaji for Vucevic + Okoro could be interesting. Jalen Smith is another target they could consider adding. Perhaps simplifying a deal and doing Agbaji + 2nd(s) for Smith makes some sense as a floor-spacing bench 5.

If Memphis has a fire sale, Santi Aldami is intriguing, as he is on a declining contract starting around 18 million.

Gafford is another interesting bench big who protects the rim, rebounds and pressures the rim in the pick and roll, but a trade with a team so far in the tax isn't tenable as a 2-team deal with Toronto.

Toronto has been a pleasant surprise thus far, but the starting lineup not being the catalyst for their success raises major concerns about how good the team can become by April.


The only caveat is this 5 man group have only started playing together this year. The players are growing more comfortable with their roles and is improving as the year progress. I think the team will give it another few months to see if they have any more untapped potential left as a unit. I am skeptical they will trade RJ for bench depth though. RJ is only shopped for an upgrade in the SL imo. Something like RJ/filler/pick for White/Quetas would be interesting to me
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Re: Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right... 

Post#616 » by ReggiesKnicks » Mon Nov 24, 2025 5:26 pm

Godaddycurse wrote:
ReggiesKnicks wrote:
oldncreaky wrote:Re: Toronto Raptors

The starters are all playing well, and starting to gel. Ingram is reminding people why he made an all-star team, and has been playing far harder on D than I expected or hoped. Scottie Barnes isn't battling hand injuries or trying to be a scorer he's not, but is playing brilliant all-court D and does everything other than score. Poeltl's game fits perfectly for the style of play in vogue because he's very mobile on both ends and rarely makes a mistake. IQ and RJ are doing well too.

But IMO the story of the Raptors so far is the bench, particularly Jamal Shead. (Toronto has a bunch of young wings, but it is the diminutive Shead that leads the bench). Shead watches the first 6 minutes of the game, and then comes in and provides whatever the team needs: POA defence, feeding the hot hand, penetration, creating open 3's, increasing/decreasing the pace, taking a charge, whatever. Classic backup PG stuff, but he's been consistent, and most important in my eyes is the 5.4 assists on only 1.2 turnovers. I'm only half joking when I say that if Shead gets a chance to start, he might not ever lose the spot.

OTOH, the team is ridiculously easy to beat for a good team with the personnel and a half-decent coaching staff. Do you have 3+ rotation big men, and can you keep 2 of them on the floor at all times? If "Yes", then bully the Raptors and dominate the boards. That's it; that's all it takes -- because aside from Poeltl and Barnes the team is too small.

Looking at the EC, Toronto matches up well with most teams, but DET, MIL, NYK and ORL look like bad match-ups who will bully them, and I'd also expect Spoelstra in Miami to win against the Raptors in a playoff series. So all in all, I've upped my estimate of the Raptors from a mediocre roughly .500 team to a team that might top 50 wins in the RS, but still tops out at a 2nd round exit in the playoffs. Can they address this by going into the tax to get a legit backup big? Yes. Will they address this glaring weakness? Doubt it --because the ownership has been cheap.


This is a great assessment.

The problem with Toronto is that their starting line-up isn't that good. They are +4.1 in ~170 minutes, and without Poeltl, they are -0.9 in about 270 minutes. That is a team that is likely to be destined for a 1st-round exit.

The player they should look to move off of is R.J. Barrett, and using Agbaji as expiring salary ballast can get them a player making upwards of 33 Million to still duck the tax.

Barrett + Agbaji for Vucevic + Okoro could be interesting. Jalen Smith is another target they could consider adding. Perhaps simplifying a deal and doing Agbaji + 2nd(s) for Smith makes some sense as a floor-spacing bench 5.

If Memphis has a fire sale, Santi Aldami is intriguing, as he is on a declining contract starting around 18 million.

Gafford is another interesting bench big who protects the rim, rebounds and pressures the rim in the pick and roll, but a trade with a team so far in the tax isn't tenable as a 2-team deal with Toronto.

Toronto has been a pleasant surprise thus far, but the starting lineup not being the catalyst for their success raises major concerns about how good the team can become by April.


The only caveat is this 5 man group have only started playing together this year. The players are growing more comfortable with their roles and is improving as the year progress. I think the team will give it another few months to see if they have any more untapped potential left as a unit. I am skeptical they will trade RJ for bench depth though. RJ is only shopped for an upgrade in the SL imo. Something like RJ/filler/pick for White/Quetas would be interesting to me


I mean RJ/Quickly/Barnes are +2.1 in 350 minutes this year and significantly worse than that when including a larger sample covering last year as well.

That's sort of the point I am getting at and what the data says. Those 3 players aren't that good together.

You say they need to wait, but we have never seen Brandon Ingram be an additive player. He doesn't lubricate an offense or connect it, he isn't exactly a ceiling enhancer given what we have seen from his thus far in his career.

I don't see white being moved for filler salary and 1 pick. A lot of teams will beat that offer.
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Re: Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right... 

Post#617 » by oldncreaky » Mon Nov 24, 2025 5:34 pm

ReggiesKnicks wrote:
oldncreaky wrote:Re: Toronto Raptors

The starters are all playing well, and starting to gel. Ingram is reminding people why he made an all-star team, and has been playing far harder on D than I expected or hoped. Scottie Barnes isn't battling hand injuries or trying to be a scorer he's not, but is playing brilliant all-court D and does everything other than score. Poeltl's game fits perfectly for the style of play in vogue because he's very mobile on both ends and rarely makes a mistake. IQ and RJ are doing well too.

But IMO the story of the Raptors so far is the bench, particularly Jamal Shead. (Toronto has a bunch of young wings, but it is the diminutive Shead that leads the bench). Shead watches the first 6 minutes of the game, and then comes in and provides whatever the team needs: POA defence, feeding the hot hand, penetration, creating open 3's, increasing/decreasing the pace, taking a charge, whatever. Classic backup PG stuff, but he's been consistent, and most important in my eyes is the 5.4 assists on only 1.2 turnovers. I'm only half joking when I say that if Shead gets a chance to start, he might not ever lose the spot.

OTOH, the team is ridiculously easy to beat for a good team with the personnel and a half-decent coaching staff. Do you have 3+ rotation big men, and can you keep 2 of them on the floor at all times? If "Yes", then bully the Raptors and dominate the boards. That's it; that's all it takes -- because aside from Poeltl and Barnes the team is too small.

Looking at the EC, Toronto matches up well with most teams, but DET, MIL, NYK and ORL look like bad match-ups who will bully them, and I'd also expect Spoelstra in Miami to win against the Raptors in a playoff series. So all in all, I've upped my estimate of the Raptors from a mediocre roughly .500 team to a team that might top 50 wins in the RS, but still tops out at a 2nd round exit in the playoffs. Can they address this by going into the tax to get a legit backup big? Yes. Will they address this glaring weakness? Doubt it --because the ownership has been cheap.


This is a great assessment.

The problem with Toronto is that their starting line-up isn't that good. They are +4.1 in ~170 minutes, and without Poeltl, they are -0.9 in about 270 minutes. That is a team that is likely to be destined for a 1st-round exit.

The player they should look to move off of is R.J. Barrett, and using Agbaji as expiring salary ballast can get them a player making upwards of 33 Million to still duck the tax.

Barrett + Agbaji for Vucevic + Okoro could be interesting. Jalen Smith is another target they could consider adding. Perhaps simplifying a deal and doing Agbaji + 2nd(s) for Smith makes some sense as a floor-spacing bench 5.

If Memphis has a fire sale, Santi Aldami is intriguing, as he is on a declining contract starting around 18 million.

Gafford is another interesting bench big who protects the rim, rebounds and pressures the rim in the pick and roll, but a trade with a team so far in the tax isn't tenable as a 2-team deal with Toronto.

Toronto has been a pleasant surprise thus far, but the starting lineup not being the catalyst for their success raises major concerns about how good the team can become by April.


Thank you for the compliment

I'd hold off on final assessments of TOR's starters for awhile. First, the trend has been very promising and upward, but the competition has been too weak to allow a proper evaluation of the Raptors. Second, they are still quite young as a group, with only Poeltl anywhere close to "old" at 30. Last but most importantly, that small 170 minute sample size for the group you mentioned is literally the only sample we have for them. I'll give it to at least the TDL to evaluate.

RJ is off to a good start -- reduced role has led to increased efficiency (60% TS%) and better D, which mimics what happens every time he has played on the Canadian National BB team. Also, his rebounding is better than most of our wings, and sorely needed. RJ limped off the court with a sprained knee last night, so we might find out what the team looks like without him over the next few weeks anyway.

As for the target for upgrading, without talking about specific players the attributes I'd be looking for for fit are:
1. Rebounding
2. Mobility
3. Good hands
4. Guarding the paint
5. Passing
6. Don't do dumb stuff
7. D (switching) outside the paint
...
and any other offensive skills are just a bonus that I'm not sure I want to pay for in a backup. Given what I prioritise, Aldama is interesting but maybe too expensive this season, Gafford useful but just a stopgap, and neither Vucevic or Smith are really mobile enough for me to be interested at their salary number.

TBH though, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about potential trades for TOR because I don't want to get my hopes up -- I expect the front office will cheap-out at the direction of ownership. (My best guess is that TOR will trade Agbaji for a min-salary scrub who may not even be a C or C/PF). But if I am pushed, someone like Bitadze would be a good fit.
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Re: Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right... 

Post#618 » by Godaddycurse » Mon Nov 24, 2025 5:37 pm

ReggiesKnicks wrote:
I mean RJ/Quickly/Barnes are +2.1 in 350 minutes this year and significantly worse than that when including a larger sample covering last year as well.

That's sort of the point I am getting at and what the data says. Those 3 players aren't that good together.

You say they need to wait, but we have never seen Brandon Ingram be an additive player. He doesn't lubricate an offense or connect it, he isn't exactly a ceiling enhancer given what we have seen from his thus far in his career.

I don't see white being moved for filler salary and 1 pick. A lot of teams will beat that offer.


RJ and Barnes were playing beyond their best suited roles last year due to injury. The trio were bad to start the year but have look much better this year next to a healthier poeltl.

Ingram is the biggest difference between us having the last ranked half court offense last year and a top 5? one this year

you're probably right that white would need 2 picks
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Re: Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right... 

Post#619 » by babyjax13 » Mon Nov 24, 2025 5:46 pm

oldncreaky wrote:
ReggiesKnicks wrote:
oldncreaky wrote:Re: Toronto Raptors

The starters are all playing well, and starting to gel. Ingram is reminding people why he made an all-star team, and has been playing far harder on D than I expected or hoped. Scottie Barnes isn't battling hand injuries or trying to be a scorer he's not, but is playing brilliant all-court D and does everything other than score. Poeltl's game fits perfectly for the style of play in vogue because he's very mobile on both ends and rarely makes a mistake. IQ and RJ are doing well too.

But IMO the story of the Raptors so far is the bench, particularly Jamal Shead. (Toronto has a bunch of young wings, but it is the diminutive Shead that leads the bench). Shead watches the first 6 minutes of the game, and then comes in and provides whatever the team needs: POA defence, feeding the hot hand, penetration, creating open 3's, increasing/decreasing the pace, taking a charge, whatever. Classic backup PG stuff, but he's been consistent, and most important in my eyes is the 5.4 assists on only 1.2 turnovers. I'm only half joking when I say that if Shead gets a chance to start, he might not ever lose the spot.

OTOH, the team is ridiculously easy to beat for a good team with the personnel and a half-decent coaching staff. Do you have 3+ rotation big men, and can you keep 2 of them on the floor at all times? If "Yes", then bully the Raptors and dominate the boards. That's it; that's all it takes -- because aside from Poeltl and Barnes the team is too small.

Looking at the EC, Toronto matches up well with most teams, but DET, MIL, NYK and ORL look like bad match-ups who will bully them, and I'd also expect Spoelstra in Miami to win against the Raptors in a playoff series. So all in all, I've upped my estimate of the Raptors from a mediocre roughly .500 team to a team that might top 50 wins in the RS, but still tops out at a 2nd round exit in the playoffs. Can they address this by going into the tax to get a legit backup big? Yes. Will they address this glaring weakness? Doubt it --because the ownership has been cheap.


This is a great assessment.

The problem with Toronto is that their starting line-up isn't that good. They are +4.1 in ~170 minutes, and without Poeltl, they are -0.9 in about 270 minutes. That is a team that is likely to be destined for a 1st-round exit.

The player they should look to move off of is R.J. Barrett, and using Agbaji as expiring salary ballast can get them a player making upwards of 33 Million to still duck the tax.

Barrett + Agbaji for Vucevic + Okoro could be interesting. Jalen Smith is another target they could consider adding. Perhaps simplifying a deal and doing Agbaji + 2nd(s) for Smith makes some sense as a floor-spacing bench 5.

If Memphis has a fire sale, Santi Aldami is intriguing, as he is on a declining contract starting around 18 million.

Gafford is another interesting bench big who protects the rim, rebounds and pressures the rim in the pick and roll, but a trade with a team so far in the tax isn't tenable as a 2-team deal with Toronto.

Toronto has been a pleasant surprise thus far, but the starting lineup not being the catalyst for their success raises major concerns about how good the team can become by April.


Thank you for the compliment

I'd hold off on final assessments of TOR's starters for awhile. First, the trend has been very promising and upward, but the competition has been too weak to allow a proper evaluation of the Raptors. Second, they are still quite young as a group, with only Poeltl anywhere close to "old" at 30. Last but most importantly, that small 170 minute sample size for the group you mentioned is literally the only sample we have for them. I'll give it to at least the TDL to evaluate.

RJ is off to a good start -- reduced role has led to increased efficiency (60% TS%) and better D, which mimics what happens every time he has played on the Canadian National BB team. Also, his rebounding is better than most of our wings, and sorely needed. RJ limped off the court with a sprained knee last night, so we might find out what the team looks like without him over the next few weeks anyway.

As for the target for upgrading, without talking about specific players the attributes I'd be looking for for fit are:
1. Rebounding
2. Mobility
3. Good hands
4. Guarding the paint
5. Passing
6. Don't do dumb stuff
7. D (switching) outside the paint
...
and any other offensive skills are just a bonus that I'm not sure I want to pay for in a backup. Given what I prioritise, Aldama is interesting but maybe too expensive this season, Gafford useful but just a stopgap, and neither Vucevic or Smith are really mobile enough for me to be interested at their salary number.

TBH though, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about potential trades for TOR because I don't want to get my hopes up -- I expect the front office will cheap-out at the direction of ownership. (My best guess is that TOR will trade Agbaji for a min-salary scrub who may not even be a C or C/PF). But if I am pushed, someone like Bitadze would be a good fit.

I think it would be hard to get all of that, but Gafford provides most of it. Jaylin Williams also sounds like a good fit?
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Re: Rumors, Random Thoughts, etc Version 20/20 We all got everything right... 

Post#620 » by daoneandonly » Mon Nov 24, 2025 7:04 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:AD deals are popular. I don't want to do a whole thread, but I'd put Chicago at the top of the list of suitors and I'd structure the deal as such:

Collins/Huerter/Williams

for

AD/Powell*/Exum*

*These could be replaced with actual useful players as Chicago has interest, just add a touch more compensation.

and then argue over what incentive Chicago owes.


I think that is the deal, though I think Dal should fight hard to include Caleb if they are taking P-Will
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