Was Westbrook career ruined by him being developed as a pointguard?

[og15]

What baffles me with Russ is that his first 9 seasons in the league, he averaged 82.3 FT% on 7.2 FTA/g. Very respectable.

The following 9 seasons, including this season, 68.6 FT% on 4.9 FTA/g.

How does that happen? It's beyond me.

He got old and he hasn't really compensated his mechanics for the age and decline in athletic ability.

That would explain the drop he had in mid-range, but FT shooting is not age related. The first decline he had coincided with when they no longer allowed you to take as long and walk basically to half court and back before taking your FT's, but a player should be able to adjust to that, which he seemingly never did.

[Bloodbather]

Westbrook had a good mid range pull up jumper in his prime. He's also a great playmaker.

Developing him as a SG would probably make him worse. He's not good off the ball, you want him running the offense unless you happen to have an even better playmaker.

[KayDee35]

Westbrook is who he is. A high motor, high usage, low efficiency player. You can try to make him an off-ball player but that decreases his value significantly.

In my view, he's a poor man's LeBron with a higher motor. He needs to be ball dominant to have an impact but his impact is nevertheless going to be lower than that of a LeBron.

The standard floor-raiser but ceiling-lowerer argument applies to Russ. He's capable to lifting you up, but only so far. If you want to go further, he's not your guy.

[Pelly24]

Westbrook is fascinating, because everything surrounding him is so philosophically driven, it doesn't matter what he actually accomplished on the court, and anything that's happened since he's been out of his prime/peak, has been used for a crazy confirmation bias. But the reality is most advanced stats had him as a top 10 or so player for half a decade. He was honestly better than KD in the 2014 and 2016 playoffs. He was ridiculously clutch in the 2016-2017 season and he legitimately deserved the MVP. I remember watching that year. It was astonishing. He'd go from being like, Rajon Rondo to 1988 Michael Jordan basically every game and he'd just alternate between the roles. No spacing, no reliable second or third option, bad backup guards. Didn't matter. He was going to get them to 48 wins. A bunch of buzzer beaters, last-minute 4th quarter takeovers. It's crazy because even with that, and even with OKC going to the finals and conference finals and only losing to better teams and all-time great players and coaches, people act like Russ wasn't a winning player.

I say all of that to say that no, his career wasn't ruined. He was a 1st ballot hall of famer by age 30. He's been to the finals and multiple conference finals and beaten great western conference teams and players. No matter what people say, advanced stats, regular season outcomes and peak success and box score stats all say that he was a winning player in his prime. But because we subscribe to these narrow basketball archetypes, we can't accept it. There's literally no argument against it lol. It's just this visceral composite of what we think great point guards are supposed to be, even when essentially none of those lower volume scoring point guards have won a title since the 1980s (isiah thomas). But somehow thats held up as some crazy definitive archetype. Nobody cares about KD"s faults because he embodies an efficient archetype. But the reality is, he's barely more proven — if at all — as a No. 1 option than Russell Westbrook is. But it's just stereotypes.

So yeah. Idk. This is just about stereotypes people can't get over, no matter what.

[PistolPeteJR]

What baffles me with Russ is that his first 9 seasons in the league, he averaged 82.3 FT% on 7.2 FTA/g. Very respectable.

The following 9 seasons, including this season, 68.6 FT% on 4.9 FTA/g.

How does that happen? It's beyond me.

He got old and he hasn't really compensated his mechanics for the age and decline in athletic ability.

What's that have to do with the FT line? He doesn't jump to start, and his strength didn't diminish.

He was 29 when we saw the big drop first happen.

[Amare_1_Knicks]

As great as WB was, his biggest drawbacks were his decision making (particularly down the stretch of games — and in general too, very turnover prone) and his shot selection, again, down the stretch of games in particular. He was wily in this way that was hard to reel in and the narrative came about that he could cost down the stretch of games. Not exactly the perception you want to have of
Your star PG. Should be the opposite.

Would developing him at SG have changed any of that? Idk. Probably not. He’s just not very deferential, regardless of if it’s KD/Harden/Lebron/Kawhi, etc. So even if he developed as a SG and played next to Jason Kidd in the backcourt, his personality and inclination to play the way he does would’ve probably shined through anyway and the narrative would’ve still been “unbelievable player.. but here are his drawbacks,” regardless of position.

[Yoshun]

I don't think Westbrook would ever not be the primary ball handler (for better or worse).

It's his personality, if he's on the court, he's handling the ball.

[Jody Smokz]

On what planet was a future HOFers career ruined?

[Jadoogar]

Ruined as in "Won an MVP, was a Top 10 player for several years and earned 350 million total from salaries alone"? I wish my career was ruined like this.

In his prime he was always better at passing than at shooting and he is Top 8 All-time in career assists, just got past the 10,000 mark and will most likely soon pass Magic at this so I am not sure why you think him becoming a shooting guard would have helped his career. He tried to develop a mid-range and he had a decent 16 footer in his prime, but that was never his main strength.

lol yea first ballot HOF. Ruined is a wild statement.

[QPR]

He only really played shooting guard in college because he was behind Darren Collison. He's always been a natural playmaker and primary ball-handler.

[JN61]

Westbrook is one of the best play creators of all time and advanced stats which focus on this aspect have his peak years being like top 3 creator peak in NBA history if I remember right... Absolute L take.

Iverson and Wade combined don't even sniff his jockstrap playmaking wise.

[hardenASG13]

His career was hurt by OKC not realizing in his prime that he needed to be surrounded by shooters and an athletic lob threat. They did the opposite, and were one of the last teams to realize this. Westbrook was an amazing playmaker, but lack of guys around him who could shoot, or in the case of Roberson dribble a basketball, led him to lots of turnovers as he was often creating out of nothing all night.

[Sign5]

Westbrook is one of the best play creators of all time and advanced stats which focus on this aspect have his peak years being like top 3 creator peak in NBA history if I remember right... Absolute L take.

Iverson and Wade combined don't even sniff his jockstrap playmaking wise.

Yea, no I wouldn't go that far. Wade was a SG who avg about 8 apg in his prime. He was a phenomenal playmaker and when actually slotted in as the PG in stretches circa '08-09 averaged 10 apg. We also saw 4 years of seamless passes to Bron which he made look easy but the timing and precision took prestine skill, especially those 70+ feet passes he made.

Yea you can claim Westbrook is a superior playmaker but far better than both combined as if this were Kawhi or such is stretching it. Wade has always been an underrated playmaker nonetheless.

[threethehardway]

What baffles me with Russ is that his first 9 seasons in the league, he averaged 82.3 FT% on 7.2 FTA/g. Very respectable.

The following 9 seasons, including this season, 68.6 FT% on 4.9 FTA/g.

How does that happen? It's beyond me.

He got old and he hasn't really compensated his mechanics for the age and decline in athletic ability.

What's that have to do with the FT line? He doesn't jump to start, and his strength didn't diminish.

He was 29 when we saw the big drop first happen.

WB decline in shooting ability is from repeated wrist and finger injuries.

[bkkrh]

Wtf, lol.

Not sure how an MVP, 9x all-star, 2x all-star game MVP, 2x all NBA 1st team, 5x all NBA 2nd team, 2x all NBA 3rd team, 2x NBA scoring champion, 3x assist leader, and being named as one of the 75 best players ever, is a career "ruined."

I think people forget how **** incredible Westbrook was in his athletic prime...he wreaked havoc on the floor, was a relentless aggressive machine, made incredible defensive plays, and had an insane motor.

You forgot being the second player after the Big O to average 30-10-10 for a full season more than 50 years later. This thread is not that far of than asking if Lebron´s career was asked by him focusing too much on play making and not more on scoring.

[tsherkin]

WB decline in shooting ability is from repeated wrist and finger injuries.

Seems more from the rules change about taking 600 years between FTs than from injuries.

[MrBigShot]

He's been in the league for like 17 years and still has no jumpshot to speak of. Even big guys develop their jumpers now late in their careers.

He either didn't care to develop it, or was unable to. I do not think position had anything to do with it.

Full speed in transition into pull up jumper from 15 ft used to Westbrook's signature move early in his career. He had years shooting nearly 85% from the line too. For whatever reason his midrange jumper and FT shooting fell off a cliff

[Lalouie]

Westbrook, as far as I know, played shooting guard in college. When he came into the NBA, he played point guard, and every commentator was so impressed by this. For me, his career is summarized as doing too much.

What if he took the Dwayne Wade or Iverson route, becoming a shooting guard and developing a mid-range game?


Edit. Replace ruined with damaged

he can't shoot.

pg was his only path. he created havoc, teams had a hard time dealing with it and that was his opening.
THAT was his strength. that was his talent

if a talent likes to throw paint on the wall and is successful at it, you don't want to overthink and try to teach him how to paint as apple, like "you could be so much better if you could paint an apple"!! GRANDMAS PAINT APPLES ON SUNDAY. this is why EVERYONE IS WRONG. he never had "natural" pg skills, and everyone says pg is the hardest position to master. you have to be born a pg. and westbrook thus became a disruptor.

some have espoused that he needed better tutelage as a pg. they are wrong!!!!
1 - by who,,,,REALLY. a "better tutor" would have chained him up
2 - with all the opinions by the know-it-alls,,,,westy is going to be a first ballot hof'er

i put this forth. if some tutor came along to try to teach him,,,,he would NOT be a first balloter. he would not be the iconic guard of the millenium teens, with a clothes line at barney's and a $350,000,000 net. russell was a top 5or6 in net earnings of the 10 or 11 iconic players from the teens

[threethehardway]

Seems more from the rules change about taking 600 years between FTs than from injuries.

I don't think so.

Russell Westbrook never had good touch, even on layups after his finger and hand injuries. He was already a player that struggled with his shooting touch and developed just enough to be a streaky midrange shooter and a good free throw shooter.

You don't go from being a streaky midrange shooter and good FT shooter to clanky knuckle balls.

His hands are mangled.

In college he was a 71 percent free throw shooter, to his rookie year being a 81.5 percent free throw shooter. He maxes out at 84.5% on 10 attempts a game in 2016-2017 and then suddenly becomes a 73.7% free throw shooter and a sub 29.8% three point shooter the next year when the previous year he was 34.3% from three.

You don't go from being a great free throw shooter, and a slightly below average high volume pull up three point shooter to just straight up bad in the middle of your prime because of routine and never recover.

That was always a lazy excuse. You can read through a list of hand injuries he has suffered through out his career.

He never had a great touch to begin with, but you don't turn yourself into an 82 percent free throw shooter and after your MVP season become of one of the worst shooters in the league with terrible misses.

It's not like Westbrook isn't a mentally strong and confident player.

His hands are cooked.

[og15]

Seems more from the rules change about taking 600 years between FTs than from injuries.

I don't think so.

Russell Westbrook never had good touch, even on layups after his finger and hand injuries. He was already a player that struggled with his shooting touch and developed just enough to be a streaky midrange shooter and a good free throw shooter.

You don't go from being a streaky midrange shooter and good FT shooter to clanky knuckle balls.

His hands are mangled.

In college he was a 71 percent free throw shooter, to his rookie year being a 81.5 percent free throw shooter. He maxes out at 84.5% on 10 attempts a game in 2016-2017 and then suddenly becomes a 73.7% free throw shooter and a sub 29.8% three point shooter the next year when the previous year he was 34.3% from three.

You don't go from being a great free throw shooter, and a slightly below average high volume pull up three point shooter to just straight up bad in the middle of your prime because of routine and never recover.

That was always a lazy excuse. You can read through a list of hand injuries he has suffered through out his career.

He never had a great touch to begin with, but you don't turn yourself into an 82 percent free throw shooter and after your MVP season become of one of the worst shooters in the league with terrible misses.

It's not like Westbrook isn't a mentally strong and confident player.

He his hands are cooked.

What hand injury did he have between 16-17 and 17-18 that caused this? (Actual question, I don't know). Also, other guys have tons have hand injuries, Chris Paul has mangled looking fingers and we don't have reports of that making them poor shooters out of nowhere. Doesn't mean there's no effect as of course it all depends on how things heal and if there are mobility changes. Definitely more common with things like elbow or shoulder injuries as that can potentially totally change how you release altogether.

Here is Westbrook saying it himself that his routine was messed up:

Read on Twitter

?s=20

FT's in game are also a lot about routine, and then there's the confidence factor. You start missing a lot, and then you start tweaking things, and then suddenly your shot is not at the same level of confidence as you used to have. That might be an issue that happened for him at least initially, and then possibly in later seasons other factors played into it.

Westbrook's mid-range jumpshot didn't decline the same time as his FT%. He actually had a career 3rd best up to that point from long mid-range in 17-18 when his FT% declined after the rule change. He also had some normal for him mid-range shooting from short and long mid-range, really up until his role drastically changed to more of a role player. There's likely some impact in losing athleticism as he is a very high jumping jumpshooter, and then there's also the fact that he's a rhythm guy with his shooting, and his later roles didn't give him the shots to get into shooting rhythms.