Should people call out Jokic more for his lack of leadership?

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I have seen many Nuggets games over the last 7-8 years. I thought Jokic is having a top3 peak all time, and not necessarily 3rd.
I am not so sure anymore, and the reason for me is his approach and this has been severely hurting the Nuggets.
Because of how great he is, we always shielded him from any blame whenever the Nuggets lose, but I now suspect this is a mistake.
There's a concept they teach you in those manager trainings, coined by Peter Drucker, it's called 'the shadow of the leader".
Whatever you do, when you ar at the top, people in your organization will look at you and pick up your habits.
This is very true in the NBA, the culture of the organization is often an emanation of its best player. Popovich said many times that the Spurs were the Spurs because Timmeh allowed him to coach. There's a famous clip of Steven Jackson admitting how seeing Timmeh accepting criticism forced him to do the same.

The Nuggets are again failing to keep the effort and the attention to details, with a different coach, throwing games they shouldn't lose. In the past we've seen Jamal coming out of shape not being called out. We do see Jokic taking plays off today.
If something is not working in the locker room, the best player must be held accountable for that. He commands enough respect to make everyone follow him. But it's not happening, and I think we should stop blaming everyone but him.

What’s with these incredibly badly timed attacks on the Nuggets? (this and the Russ thread).

The Nuggets are currently on track to have the best record they’ve ever had with Jokic. They also have the best net rating they’ve ever had with him. Oh yeah, they are also currently on pace to have the best offense EVER.

Why are people attacking Jokic when this is the best season he (or the Nuggets) have ever had?

I think some fans should stop being defenive and hold the bet player accountable.
these things add up and can make a difference between winning and losing.
the Nuggets lost four games in a row at home, against vastly inferior teams, in a similar pattern, showing an absolutely pathetic level of defensive effort. and this is in context of unserious basketball that we saw pretty often, since the championship.

you're helping nobody blaming everyone but Jokic, if you're a Nuggets fan (if you're not, keep going!)

[sikma42]

His rim defense is putrid

Unless you can make his standing reach 3 inches better...that's just an issue that isn't getting fixed.

Jokic’s standing reach is more than a half foot longer than Marc Gasol. The issue with his rim defense isn’t his measurements or lack of athleticism. Its effort.

So why wasn’t as Gasol as good offensively? Was that lack of effort as well

[Optms]

This is hilarious, I don't recall seeing any post on this from you. However, I see you posting that Luka can rival SGA to win the MVP.

Don Luka was winning without Lebron and carrying the play-in Lakers to the second best record in the West. I am very partial but have given him the benefit of the doubt due to his extraordinary shape.

Very partial lol??? Replace Joker with SGA or Luka, two of your favorites, and Denver is worse. And Luka was winning with Austin Reaves having a career year. The Lakers have two all stars this year and neither have gray in their beard.

Big Val with the Nuggets shooters around Luka and Shai?

Yeah, no way the Nuggets are worse. Blind homerism at this point to keep repeating that. Shai is leading an all time great team and Luka is leading a worse supporting cast to a better record.

[remiga007]

I have seen many Nuggets games over the last 7-8 years. I thought Jokic is having a top3 peak all time, and not necessarily 3rd.
I am not so sure anymore, and the reason for me is his approach and this has been severely hurting the Nuggets.
Because of how great he is, we always shielded him from any blame whenever the Nuggets lose, but I now suspect this is a mistake.
There's a concept they teach you in those manager trainings, coined by Peter Drucker, it's called 'the shadow of the leader".
Whatever you do, when you ar at the top, people in your organization will look at you and pick up your habits.
This is very true in the NBA, the culture of the organization is often an emanation of its best player. Popovich said many times that the Spurs were the Spurs because Timmeh allowed him to coach. There's a famous clip of Steven Jackson admitting how seeing Timmeh accepting criticism forced him to do the same.

The Nuggets are again failing to keep the effort and the attention to details, with a different coach, throwing games they shouldn't lose. In the past we've seen Jamal coming out of shape not being called out. We do see Jokic taking plays off today.
If something is not working in the locker room, the best player must be held accountable for that. He commands enough respect to make everyone follow him. But it's not happening, and I think we should stop blaming everyone but him.

What’s with these incredibly badly timed attacks on the Nuggets? (this and the Russ thread).

The Nuggets are currently on track to have the best record they’ve ever had with Jokic. They also have the best net rating they’ve ever had with him. Oh yeah, they are also currently on pace to have the best offense EVER.

Why are people attacking Jokic when this is the best season he (or the Nuggets) have ever had?

I think some fans should stop being defenive and hold the bet player accountable.
these things add up and can make a difference between winning and losing.
the Nuggets lost four games in a row at home, against vastly inferior teams, in a similar pattern, showing an absolutely pathetic level of defensive effort. and this is in context of unserious basketball that we saw pretty often, since the championship.

you're helping nobody blaming everyone but Jokic, if you're a Nuggets fan (if you're not, keep going!)

If you give flack for 4 straight home losses you should give credit for 7 straight away wins too. And the incredible effort at the end of some games. That is if you want to be objective.

Also, Nugs are vastly superior than the four teams they lost to? Huh? Have you SEEN who is starting for Denver?

[Lalouie]

no

are you trying to assemble a group

[Richard Miller]

When they are fully healthy and still losing games they shouldn't then maybe you can say something.

[kazyv]

Don Luka was winning without Lebron and carrying the play-in Lakers to the second best record in the West. I am very partial but have given him the benefit of the doubt due to his extraordinary shape.

Very partial lol??? Replace Joker with SGA or Luka, two of your favorites, and Denver is worse. And Luka was winning with Austin Reaves having a career year. The Lakers have two all stars this year and neither have gray in their beard.

Big Val with the Nuggets shooters around Luka and Shai?

Yeah, no way the Nuggets are worse. Blind homerism at this point to keep repeating that. Shai is leading an all time great team and Luka is leading a worse supporting cast to a better record.

are the shooters in the room with us right now?

[Ryoga Hibiki]

What’s with these incredibly badly timed attacks on the Nuggets? (this and the Russ thread).

The Nuggets are currently on track to have the best record they’ve ever had with Jokic. They also have the best net rating they’ve ever had with him. Oh yeah, they are also currently on pace to have the best offense EVER.

Why are people attacking Jokic when this is the best season he (or the Nuggets) have ever had?

I think some fans should stop being defenive and hold the bet player accountable.
these things add up and can make a difference between winning and losing.
the Nuggets lost four games in a row at home, against vastly inferior teams, in a similar pattern, showing an absolutely pathetic level of defensive effort. and this is in context of unserious basketball that we saw pretty often, since the championship.

you're helping nobody blaming everyone but Jokic, if you're a Nuggets fan (if you're not, keep going!)

If you give flack for 4 straight home losses you should give credit for 7 straight away wins too. And the incredible effort at the end of some games. That is if you want to be objective.

Also, Nugs are vastly superior than the four teams they lost to? Huh? Have you SEEN who is starting for Denver?

have you actully SEEN those games and HOW and WHY they lost?
they were absolutely seperior to them, until they stopped defending and lost.
same pattern every time, with Jokic being part of the issue.
not because of lack of mobility or verticality. but because of effort.

[DimesandKnicks]

Unless you can make his standing reach 3 inches better...that's just an issue that isn't getting fixed.

Jokic’s standing reach is more than a half foot longer than Marc Gasol. The issue with his rim defense isn’t his measurements or lack of athleticism. Its effort.

So why wasn’t as Gasol as good offensively? Was that lack of effort as well

This is a stupid question

[Cubbies2120]

Pretty wild that Jokic has the Nuggets on their best start to a season since he's been there, while missing Gordon (7) and Braun (9) games.

Yes, yes, Jokic should go all-out to start the season so they're 16-4 instead of 14-6 just so they can cap out at...#2 seed. #1 seed is a foregone conclusion at this point.

Lot of y'all gonna look REAL silly when Jokic is hoisting that Larry O trophy in June this year. Quote me on it

[Ssj16]

I don't understand what exactly is your point? I don't necessarily disagree with what you wrote above but were talking about defense and that's where he struggles.

The point is not every team needs to follow a "conventional" or "traditional" scheme to be successful.

You're talking about traditional basketball tropes as if the only way to win a championship is to have a center who is a rim protector who anchors your defense when we just went a decade with teams showing success playing small ball and not having a traditional center in during crunch time.

The make up of Denver doesn't rely on Jokic's defense. It relies on his offense and others to shore up the defensive deficiencies. Just like Goldenstate's lineup of death could work without a traditional center in crunch time.

Imagine if you remove Iggy and Draymond from the death lineup, how impactful would it be? Now imagine removing Aaron Gordon and C Braun from Denver's lineup. You don't need to, you're seeing the impact right now.

I never said teams need to follow a transitional scheme to be successful. My point is simply that if others need to shore up defensive deficiencies of a center than it's hard to argue that the player is so much better than anybody else in the league that "it's not close" as we constantly read in these forums.

It feels so disingenuous to focus on one part of his game when he's doing everything else literally at a GOAT level. Based on this logic, they should replace Jokic with prime Gobert or Evan Mobley or AD and they would magically be this dynastic team without any issues.

This reminds me when people (including myself in my young immature days) would harp on Lebron for not taking the shot instead of passing because we always expect your star 2/3 to take the last shot.

These arbitrary rules make no sense when you have a unicorn like Jokic or Lebron who is the exception to the "rule".

[Ssj16]

Don Luka was winning without Lebron and carrying the play-in Lakers to the second best record in the West. I am very partial but have given him the benefit of the doubt due to his extraordinary shape.

Very partial lol??? Replace Joker with SGA or Luka, two of your favorites, and Denver is worse. And Luka was winning with Austin Reaves having a career year. The Lakers have two all stars this year and neither have gray in their beard.

Big Val with the Nuggets shooters around Luka and Shai?

Yeah, no way the Nuggets are worse. Blind homerism at this point to keep repeating that. Shai is leading an all time great team and Luka is leading a worse supporting cast to a better record.

I truly fail to see how SGA makes this Nuggets team better. Jokic is responsible for probably 60% of the team's offense. Unless SGA is going to be averaging 40 pts a night, the team overall is going to be significantly worse on offense.

Also everytime SGA sits, unlike OKC, the team will most likely go into a deficit, which means SGA won't have the luxury of playing with big leads on a nightly basis.

Meanwhile you put Jokic on OKC with a team that can shore up his defensive weakspots and he instantly makes their offense better.

[The Servant]

Bro his number two is Jamal Murray. He is playing alongside starters like Spencer Jones (4.5/1.9/0.6) and Peyton Watson, and a bunch of plugs you have never heard of. He took a 68 win OKC to game 7 last year.

Ice cold take.

[Cubbies2120]

The point is not every team needs to follow a "conventional" or "traditional" scheme to be successful.

You're talking about traditional basketball tropes as if the only way to win a championship is to have a center who is a rim protector who anchors your defense when we just went a decade with teams showing success playing small ball and not having a traditional center in during crunch time.

The make up of Denver doesn't rely on Jokic's defense. It relies on his offense and others to shore up the defensive deficiencies. Just like Goldenstate's lineup of death could work without a traditional center in crunch time.

Imagine if you remove Iggy and Draymond from the death lineup, how impactful would it be? Now imagine removing Aaron Gordon and C Braun from Denver's lineup. You don't need to, you're seeing the impact right now.

I never said teams need to follow a transitional scheme to be successful. My point is simply that if others need to shore up defensive deficiencies of a center than it's hard to argue that the player is so much better than anybody else in the league that "it's not close" as we constantly read in these forums.

It feels so disingenuous to focus on one part of his game when he's doing everything else literally at a GOAT level. Based on this logic, they should replace Jokic with prime Gobert or Evan Mobley or AD and they would magically be this dynastic team without any issues.

This reminds me when people (including myself in my young immature days) would harp on Lebron for not taking the shot instead of passing because we always expect your star 2/3 to take the last shot.

These arbitrary rules make no sense when you have a unicorn like Jokic or Lebron who is the exception to the "rule".

Exactly. Things are a little different when you're talking about a player who has a top 3 EVER peak, and an actual path to being top 3 GOAT.

We're not talking Luka / Shai who would be extremely lucky to crack top 20 all time...

[KayDee35]

We're well past the honeymoon phase with Jokic. The expectations are going to be elevated when you've got multiple MVPs and being talked about as an all-time great - both of which are well-deserved.

I'm not sure I'd knock him for his leadership but I'm OK with him getting the bulk of the blame if the Nuggs lose in the playoffs. That's how it goes with superstars.

If he puts up ATG production in the playoffs and they lose, he should get the blame for it? Where is the logic in that lol. It's a team sport, not golf or tennis, an individual player can only do so much. By that same token, in the virtually impossible scenario he didn't play well and the Nuggets were able to win, he shouldn't get extra credit for that, he should be judged primarily by how he individually performs.

Arguing that if Jokic averaged 35/10/10 but lost to a 74 win Thunder team he should get blamed for it is frankly an abysmal take.

If he plays out of his mind in the postseason and they still lose, I will absolutely agree that he did all he could and more and that the better team (i.e., his opponent) won. This has been true for Jokic, LeBron, Jordan, etc. for several playoff series in their careers where their teams lost but their performances were above criticism.

Jokic did not average 35/10/10 against the 68-win Thunder, though. Here are his Assists and Turnovers in each game for that 7-game series.
Ast/TO
6/7
6/6
6/8 (He averaged 6/7 in the first 3 games but the playoffs are serious and not the time to be memeing!)
3/2
5/2
8/1
7/5

He couldn't solve Caruso's defense in Game 7. And yes, I know he was being mauled but if you're an all-timer, you have to find a way. Taking just 1 shot in the 2nd half of Game 7 isn't a good look either. Again, I understand that he's exhausted from doing so much all series long but the bar is higher if you're an all-timer.

And honestly, Jokic is that good, that I think the bar is fair.

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve credit for taking OKC to 7 or that another current player could have done better or that Denver should have won that series for Jokic to be recognized. I'm saying he could have done better and I think we'll see that improvement this postseason.

[druggas]

If Wilt Chamberlain can be criticized when he held every record, then it's fair game on everyone else.

[maverick_41]

I think some fans should stop being defenive and hold the bet player accountable.
these things add up and can make a difference between winning and losing.
the Nuggets lost four games in a row at home, against vastly inferior teams, in a similar pattern, showing an absolutely pathetic level of defensive effort. and this is in context of unserious basketball that we saw pretty often, since the championship.

you're helping nobody blaming everyone but Jokic, if you're a Nuggets fan (if you're not, keep going!)

If you give flack for 4 straight home losses you should give credit for 7 straight away wins too. And the incredible effort at the end of some games. That is if you want to be objective.

Also, Nugs are vastly superior than the four teams they lost to? Huh? Have you SEEN who is starting for Denver?

have you actully SEEN those games and HOW and WHY they lost?
they were absolutely seperior to them, until they stopped defending and lost.
same pattern every time, with Jokic being part of the issue.
not because of lack of mobility or verticality. but because of effort.

A part of the reason why a player stop doing certain fundamentals in the 4th quarter is fatigue. Same with Luka when he is doing everything.

The Nuggets should be grateful for what Nikola brings on the table and not blame him of his shortcomings. He is not a robot or Marc Gasol with the all-time offensive skills.

Слава Сербским братушкам!

[levon]

Don Luka was winning without Lebron and carrying the play-in Lakers to the second best record in the West. I am very partial but have given him the benefit of the doubt due to his extraordinary shape.

Very partial lol??? Replace Joker with SGA or Luka, two of your favorites, and Denver is worse. And Luka was winning with Austin Reaves having a career year. The Lakers have two all stars this year and neither have gray in their beard.

Big Val with the Nuggets shooters around Luka and Shai?

Yeah, no way the Nuggets are worse. Blind homerism at this point to keep repeating that. Shai is leading an all time great team and Luka is leading a worse supporting cast to a better record.

I was counting the days until this board would stop celebrating the Nuggets new supporting cast and start calling them trash.

[levon]

We're well past the honeymoon phase with Jokic. The expectations are going to be elevated when you've got multiple MVPs and being talked about as an all-time great - both of which are well-deserved.

I'm not sure I'd knock him for his leadership but I'm OK with him getting the bulk of the blame if the Nuggs lose in the playoffs. That's how it goes with superstars.

If he puts up ATG production in the playoffs and they lose, he should get the blame for it? Where is the logic in that lol. It's a team sport, not golf or tennis, an individual player can only do so much. By that same token, in the virtually impossible scenario he didn't play well and the Nuggets were able to win, he shouldn't get extra credit for that, he should be judged primarily by how he individually performs.

Arguing that if Jokic averaged 35/10/10 but lost to a 74 win Thunder team he should get blamed for it is frankly an abysmal take.

If he plays out of his mind in the postseason and they still lose, I will absolutely agree that he did all he could and more and that the better team (i.e., his opponent) won. This has been true for Jokic, LeBron, Jordan, etc. for several playoff series in their careers where their teams lost but their performances were above criticism.

Jokic did not average 35/10/10 against the 68-win Thunder, though. Here are his Assists and Turnovers in each game for that 7-game series.
Ast/TO
6/7
6/6
6/8 (He averaged 6/7 in the first 3 games but the playoffs are serious and not the time to be memeing!)
3/2
5/2
8/1
7/5

He couldn't solve Caruso's defense in Game 7. And yes, I know he was being mauled but if you're an all-timer, you have to find a way. Taking just 1 shot in the 2nd half of Game 7 isn't a good look either. Again, I understand that he's exhausted from doing so much all series long but the bar is higher if you're an all-timer.

And honestly, Jokic is that good, that I think the bar is fair.

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve credit for taking OKC to 7 or that another current player could have done better or that Denver should have won that series for Jokic to be recognized. I'm saying he could have done better and I think we'll see that improvement this postseason.

That series also only got to 7 because of Daigneault's dumminess and Westbrook and Gordon pulling a rabbit out of a hat in Game 1. Not to mention Thunder shooting well below expectation due to J Dubs wrist. You play that 100 times I don't think it goes 7 over ten times.

[Raps in 4]

Agreed. Jokic should be able to elevate his scrub teammates to stardom.

LeBron always elevated his teammates. He turned nobodies like Wade and Bosh into All-NBA players. Then he did it again to Kyrie and Love. And then to AD. And now he's turned Luka into a star. Jokic has never done that.