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Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition

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Re: Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition 

Post#701 » by shrink » Yesterday 1:30 pm

winforlose wrote:
shrink wrote:From a CBA standpoint, the Clippers can’t just waive Chris Paul. Waiving him would take their roster down to 13 players, where NBA teams can only sit for two weeks. However, they are hard capped just under the first apron, and the pro-rated salary left on a vet min deal for the rest of this season would put them over the cap. Bones Hyland makes sense


If we could do Bones for CP3 the next question is does CP3 want to be that far from his family? He wanted to stay close to home and parent more. GSW or LAL are likely his preferred landing spots. Would he come here if traded, maybe? Would he be happy being here?

I asked those questions on the Trade Board last week, but I haven’t heard anyone weigh in on Paul’s motivations.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition 

Post#702 » by Wolveswin » Yesterday 2:28 pm

shrink wrote:
Wolveswin wrote:To Pistons: Randle/DDV

To Pacers: Dilly/Tobias/Clark/Pistons 1st (maybe 2x with 26 being 29th)/Wolves 26 1st Swap (move up 6-10 spots from Pistons 1st)

To Wolves: Nembhard/Ivey/Toppin/Huff.

Randle > Nembhard
DDV > Ivey

Randle > Nembhard. Yes. Even on Wolves board.
DDV > Ivey. No. Only on Wolves board.
*DDV>Toppin or Tobias is a better comparison.

And that is why I had Pistons adding most likely 2x 1sts - to add value to the deal.

Randle > Nembhard > Ivey > DDV > Toppin or Tobias > Huff > Clark
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition 

Post#703 » by Wolveswin » Yesterday 2:32 pm

winforlose wrote:
Wolveswin wrote:To Pistons: Randle/DDV

To Pacers: Dilly/Tobias/Clark/Pistons 1st (maybe 2x with 26 being 29th)/Wolves 26 1st Swap (move up 6-10 spots from Pistons 1st)

To Wolves: Nembhard/Ivey/Toppin/Huff

Gobert/Reid/Huff/Beringer
Reid/McDaniels/Toppin
McDaniels/Edwards/TSJ/Miller
Edwards/Ivey/Nembhard/TSJ
Nembhard/Conley/Bones

Ivey could be ‘upset’ becoming Wolves new 6th man, but a) he is behind Edwards - so not a tough sell and b) Reid can mentor him on how awesome a role that can be. If Ivey embraces it, he should re-sign for Reid money in offseason.

Wolves would close games like this:
Reid
McDaniels
Edwards
Ivey
Nembhard

With Gobert and Ivey/Reid in and out for defensive/offensive lineups.


You believe Ant and Ivey would play well together? Also how is Ivey’s defense? Finally how is Ivey on hustle plays?

Ivey as 6th man, staggering minutes with Edwards…100%. Ivey full time starter at PG with Edwards…not my cup of tea. Not sure why some are stumping for Ivey as full time PG project (Ivey is more traditional SG) next to Edwards.

Ivey’s defense is ok. He is a young developing player in schemes. Coming off bench and mostly against 2nd units would be totally fine. Within Wolves roster, totally fine.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition 

Post#704 » by shrink » Yesterday 2:45 pm

Wolveswin wrote:
shrink wrote:
Wolveswin wrote:To Pistons: Randle/DDV

To Pacers: Dilly/Tobias/Clark/Pistons 1st (maybe 2x with 26 being 29th)/Wolves 26 1st Swap (move up 6-10 spots from Pistons 1st)

To Wolves: Nembhard/Ivey/Toppin/Huff.

Randle > Nembhard
DDV > Ivey

Randle > Nembhard. Yes. Even on Wolves board.
DDV > Ivey. No. Only on Wolves board.

DDV is better, and even if you say equal, DDV has another year on an under-market contract.

I believe he is leading the Wolves now in +/-, one of the NBA’s best in on/off, and top ten in three pointers.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition 

Post#705 » by Domejandro » Yesterday 2:59 pm

Chris Paul has looked entirely cooked this season, and I don’t think he would consider Minnesota without the guarantee of starter minutes.

I would love to sign him, but I just don’t see it as a fit.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition 

Post#706 » by Klomp » Yesterday 3:10 pm

Always important when discussing transactions, especially in today's financial landscape.

Read on Twitter
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition 

Post#707 » by Norseman79 » Yesterday 3:35 pm

Easy idea...simple framework

Cleveland out: Jarrett Allen
In: Julius Randle/Naz Reid

Indiana out: Nembhard
In: Allen

MN out: Randle or Reid


I don't think there is a chance Pacers move Nembhard short of a mass overpay
In: Nembhard
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition 

Post#708 » by winforlose » Yesterday 3:37 pm

Wolveswin wrote:
winforlose wrote:
Wolveswin wrote:To Pistons: Randle/DDV

To Pacers: Dilly/Tobias/Clark/Pistons 1st (maybe 2x with 26 being 29th)/Wolves 26 1st Swap (move up 6-10 spots from Pistons 1st)

To Wolves: Nembhard/Ivey/Toppin/Huff

Gobert/Reid/Huff/Beringer
Reid/McDaniels/Toppin
McDaniels/Edwards/TSJ/Miller
Edwards/Ivey/Nembhard/TSJ
Nembhard/Conley/Bones

Ivey could be ‘upset’ becoming Wolves new 6th man, but a) he is behind Edwards - so not a tough sell and b) Reid can mentor him on how awesome a role that can be. If Ivey embraces it, he should re-sign for Reid money in offseason.

Wolves would close games like this:
Reid
McDaniels
Edwards
Ivey
Nembhard

With Gobert and Ivey/Reid in and out for defensive/offensive lineups.


You believe Ant and Ivey would play well together? Also how is Ivey’s defense? Finally how is Ivey on hustle plays?

Ivey as 6th man, staggering minutes with Edwards…100%. Ivey full time starter at PG with Edwards…not my cup of tea. Not sure why some are stumping for Ivey as full time PG project (Ivey is more traditional SG) next to Edwards.

Ivey’s defense is ok. He is a young developing player in schemes. Coming off bench and mostly against 2nd units would be totally fine. Within Wolves roster, totally fine.


Pretend we cannot acquire Nembhard via trade. DDV is our 5th starter. Do you still want to trade DDV for Ivey? Also what happens if our acquired PG is not available? DDV has shown he can play well with Ant in serious minutes, do you believe Ivey can do the same?

Finally remember that opponents stagger their substitutions. It is unlikely Ivey would only play against backups and if he is our 6th man he will get run in the playoffs (especially if either starting guard gets in foul trouble.) Are you comfortable with the defensive drop off from DDV (not to mention rebounding and boxing out,) that is required to make that trade?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition 

Post#709 » by Klomp » Yesterday 3:43 pm

winforlose wrote:Pretend we cannot acquire Nembhard via trade. DDV is our 5th starter. Do you still want to trade DDV for Ivey? Also what happens if our acquired PG is not available? DDV has shown he can play well with Ant in serious minutes, do you believe Ivey can do the same?

Finally remember that opponents stagger their substitutions. It is unlikely Ivey would only play against backups and if he is our 6th man he will get run in the playoffs (especially if either starting guard gets in foul trouble.) Are you comfortable with the defensive drop off from DDV (not to mention rebounding and boxing out,) that is required to make that trade?

Absolutely.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition 

Post#710 » by Klomp » Yesterday 3:52 pm

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Re: Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition 

Post#711 » by winforlose » Yesterday 4:09 pm

Klomp wrote:


I don’t know why you think this video is a positive in the context of Ivey on the Wolves. The guy is propping Ivey up and says things like “he turns it over way too much, especially stupid turnovers like jumping without a plan or driving with his head down and throwing it away.” He openly admits that Ivey’s defense is a problem and the biggest open question for his career. His rebounding is about on pace with DDV but it is not clear that he boxes out or fights for boards in the same hustle play manner as DDV. His money is an open question with a large raise possible (teams might pay him on speculation.) He also has high usage and shoots lower volume from deep than DDV. I don’t see the appeal.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition 

Post#712 » by Klomp » Yesterday 4:27 pm

winforlose wrote:
Klomp wrote:


I don’t know why you think this video is a positive in the context of Ivey on the Wolves. The guy is propping Ivey up and says things like “he turns it over way too much, especially stupid turnovers like jumping without a plan or driving with his head down and throwing it away.” He openly admits that Ivey’s defense is a problem and the biggest open question for his career. His rebounding is about on pace with DDV but it is not clear that he boxes out or fights for boards in the same hustle play manner as DDV. His money is an open question with a large raise possible (teams might pay him on speculation.) He also has high usage and shoots lower volume from deep than DDV. I don’t see the appeal.

Right, because you are trying to build the team the way you would build the franchise, rather than assessing how the actual team runs things and trying to predict how they would realistically look to pivot from their current situation.

Are turnovers and defense concerns? Of course. But I also watch that video and see that Ivey was the primary perimeter defender on every one of those clips. OK, so he's not a primary defender......he wouldn't be asked to fill that role here. Are you familiar with Jaden McDaniels? Last I checked, he's a pretty good defender. So is Jaylen Clark. And let's not act like Donte is some all-world defender all of a sudden. As for the turnovers, I think that's something that can be fixed or at least limited schematically. Shooting will always be a swing skill for Ivey, but he showed clear growth before his catastrophic injury. I know pessimists will be quick to call it a fluke, but I choose to believe in the development I see both statistically and with the eye test.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition 

Post#713 » by Norseman79 » Yesterday 4:30 pm

winforlose wrote:
Wolveswin wrote:
winforlose wrote:
You believe Ant and Ivey would play well together? Also how is Ivey’s defense? Finally how is Ivey on hustle plays?

Ivey as 6th man, staggering minutes with Edwards…100%. Ivey full time starter at PG with Edwards…not my cup of tea. Not sure why some are stumping for Ivey as full time PG project (Ivey is more traditional SG) next to Edwards.

Ivey’s defense is ok. He is a young developing player in schemes. Coming off bench and mostly against 2nd units would be totally fine. Within Wolves roster, totally fine.


Pretend we cannot acquire Nembhard via trade. DDV is our 5th starter. Do you still want to trade DDV for Ivey? Also what happens if our acquired PG is not available? DDV has shown he can play well with Ant in serious minutes, do you believe Ivey can do the same?

Finally remember that opponents stagger their substitutions. It is unlikely Ivey would only play against backups and if he is our 6th man he will get run in the playoffs (especially if either starting guard gets in foul trouble.) Are you comfortable with the defensive drop off from DDV (not to mention rebounding and boxing out,) that is required to make that trade?


In this scenario, what value are you placing on our tradeable assets? Is it Ivey or nothing?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition 

Post#714 » by winforlose » Yesterday 4:36 pm

Norseman79 wrote:
winforlose wrote:
Wolveswin wrote:Ivey as 6th man, staggering minutes with Edwards…100%. Ivey full time starter at PG with Edwards…not my cup of tea. Not sure why some are stumping for Ivey as full time PG project (Ivey is more traditional SG) next to Edwards.

Ivey’s defense is ok. He is a young developing player in schemes. Coming off bench and mostly against 2nd units would be totally fine. Within Wolves roster, totally fine.


Pretend we cannot acquire Nembhard via trade. DDV is our 5th starter. Do you still want to trade DDV for Ivey? Also what happens if our acquired PG is not available? DDV has shown he can play well with Ant in serious minutes, do you believe Ivey can do the same?

Finally remember that opponents stagger their substitutions. It is unlikely Ivey would only play against backups and if he is our 6th man he will get run in the playoffs (especially if either starting guard gets in foul trouble.) Are you comfortable with the defensive drop off from DDV (not to mention rebounding and boxing out,) that is required to make that trade?


In this scenario, what value are you placing on our tradeable assets? Is it Ivey or nothing?


In this scenario I am asking do you make the DDV for Ivey trade if you cannot also make the other move? The point is to identify how he values Ivey and if he wants to make that with the understanding Ivey might need to replace DDV as the starting PG/SG depending on how you classify DDV.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition 

Post#715 » by winforlose » Yesterday 4:39 pm

Klomp wrote:
winforlose wrote:
Klomp wrote:


I don’t know why you think this video is a positive in the context of Ivey on the Wolves. The guy is propping Ivey up and says things like “he turns it over way too much, especially stupid turnovers like jumping without a plan or driving with his head down and throwing it away.” He openly admits that Ivey’s defense is a problem and the biggest open question for his career. His rebounding is about on pace with DDV but it is not clear that he boxes out or fights for boards in the same hustle play manner as DDV. His money is an open question with a large raise possible (teams might pay him on speculation.) He also has high usage and shoots lower volume from deep than DDV. I don’t see the appeal.

Right, because you are trying to build the team the way you would build the franchise, rather than assessing how the actual team runs things and trying to predict how they would realistically look to pivot from their current situation.

Are turnovers and defense concerns? Of course. But I also watch that video and see that Ivey was the primary perimeter defender on every one of those clips. OK, so he's not a primary defender......he wouldn't be asked to fill that role here. Are you familiar with Jaden McDaniels? Last I checked, he's a pretty good defender. So is Jaylen Clark. And let's not act like Donte is some all-world defender all of a sudden. As for the turnovers, I think that's something that can be fixed or at least limited schematically. Shooting will always be a swing skill for Ivey, but he showed clear growth before his catastrophic injury. I know pessimists will be quick to call it a fluke, but I choose to believe in the development I see both statistically and with the eye test.


More expensive, worse defense, more turnovers, has never really been a bench player, (now being asked to accept being a 6th man potentially,) or playing with a high usage Ant who doesn’t want to run the PG and would rather play with a true PG. All of this is before we even address the injury which is a huge variable in itself. Forgive me if I don’t see the offensive improvement between DDV (an already excellent catch and shoot 3 point shooter on higher volume, who can score off the dribble, and lobs well to Rudy,) and Ivey. I don’t see why you make this move unless you are betting on Ivey sucking this year and taking a very team friendly contract.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition 

Post#716 » by Klomp » Yesterday 4:41 pm

If you bring in a Jaden Ivey, or another young PG/SG hybrid who you see as a core piece, there is a chance you are essentially closing the book on Rob Dillingham. Whether at the trade deadline or in the offseason, I could see a corresponding trade of Dillingham for either a shooter or a big man.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition 

Post#717 » by TimberKat » Yesterday 5:21 pm

Klomp wrote:If you bring in a Jaden Ivey, or another young PG/SG hybrid who you see as a core piece, there is a chance you are essentially closing the book on Rob Dillingham. Whether at the trade deadline or in the offseason, I could see a corresponding trade of Dillingham for either a shooter or a big man.

If we close the book on Dilly, I will take Alvarado (because he can fill the role and good price for this year). Can we do a Miller+Ingles+2nd for Alvarado?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition 

Post#718 » by Wolveswin » Yesterday 5:36 pm

shrink wrote:
Wolveswin wrote:
shrink wrote:Randle > Nembhard
DDV > Ivey

Randle > Nembhard. Yes. Even on Wolves board.
DDV > Ivey. No. Only on Wolves board.

DDV is better, and even if you say equal, DDV has another year on an under-market contract.

I believe he is leading the Wolves now in +/-, one of the NBA’s best in on/off, and top ten in three pointers.

Oh, DDV is better player right now. Trade Value isn’t just based on that.

If Wolves want Ivey for DDV they are adding value. No doubt.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition 

Post#719 » by Wolveswin » Yesterday 5:46 pm

winforlose wrote:
Wolveswin wrote:
winforlose wrote:
You believe Ant and Ivey would play well together? Also how is Ivey’s defense? Finally how is Ivey on hustle plays?

Ivey as 6th man, staggering minutes with Edwards…100%. Ivey full time starter at PG with Edwards…not my cup of tea. Not sure why some are stumping for Ivey as full time PG project (Ivey is more traditional SG) next to Edwards.

Ivey’s defense is ok. He is a young developing player in schemes. Coming off bench and mostly against 2nd units would be totally fine. Within Wolves roster, totally fine.


Pretend we cannot acquire Nembhard via trade. DDV is our 5th starter. Do you still want to trade DDV for Ivey? Also what happens if our acquired PG is not available? DDV has shown he can play well with Ant in serious minutes, do you believe Ivey can do the same?

Finally remember that opponents stagger their substitutions. It is unlikely Ivey would only play against backups and if he is our 6th man he will get run in the playoffs (especially if either starting guard gets in foul trouble.) Are you comfortable with the defensive drop off from DDV (not to mention rebounding and boxing out,) that is required to make that trade?

Come on, no sub plays exclusively vs subs as starters don’t play exclusively vs starters. Don’t lower the IQ level of folks here by even having to bring that up. Not needed.

Back to Ivey. He would be acquired for what he may become not what he is today. His upside and potential. His new role and fit on Wolves roster. Comparing him to a more experienced and complete player in DDV isn’t ‘fair’ comparison.

In Ivey’s 6th man role on Wolves (only way I like Ivey in MN - not as full time PG starter) what might he become and how quickly. Can he someday make all of us say “DDV who.”
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 18): Early Season Panic Edition 

Post#720 » by Wolveswin » Yesterday 5:50 pm

Norseman79 wrote:Easy idea...simple framework

Cleveland out: Jarrett Allen
In: Julius Randle/Naz Reid

Indiana out: Nembhard
In: Allen

MN out: Randle or Reid


I don't think there is a chance Pacers move Nembhard short of a mass overpay
In: Nembhard

Trade is illegal. And building a legal trade with Cavs is uphill challenge.

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