[Charania] Jakob Extended - 4 Years $104m

[YogurtProducer]

Ah I disagree. Deandre Jordan was a legit rim deterrent. He’d be more than fine at his peak in today’s NBA. His rim deterrence and vertical spacing would pop even more now with all of the spacing and PNR offence we have in today’s NBA.

Jordan would be fine today. Jordan would not be making all-nba teams.

Derrick Lively and Deandre Ayton were able to be starting centers on legit finals teams. Deandre Jordan at his peak was much better than them.

Was it? Jordan was very limited, and propped up fairly heavily by playing with one of the GOAT PG's.

Poeltl will age fine on offence, it’s his defence I’m worried about. His defence peaked on the Spurs. He’s been more of a boon to us on offence than he has been on defence. The gap will only get wider on that end now that he’s 30.

Sure. I don't think it is going to be a massive dropoff. The last year of the deal might be a problem, but it is also non-guaranteed.

There is also no guarantee we keep him for the entire deal.

This isn’t a big deal if we can find a competent back up 7 footer but we can’t count on that with this FO.

You cant count on that for most FO's. Most backup 7 footers are horrible.

Detroit - Duren + Beef Stew
Knicks - KAT + Mitchell Robinson
Orlando - Wendell Carter Jr + Goga
Heat - Bam + Kel Ware
Cavs - Allen + Mobley
Hawks - KP + OO

Our playoff peers seem to be doing just fine with it lol.

Well yeah, these teams spent considerably more or are not an upgrade over Poeltl/Mamu.

DET - $20M this year, $50M(?) next
NYK - $65M (not to mention, Robinson has played 60 games over 3 seasons, so really it is KAT + Precious for 2 seasons who you whined about here as well)
ORL- $20M (plus $15M for Issac) (I take Jak over these 2 any day of the week lol)
MIA - $41M (not to mention, Ware/Bam start together often)
CLE - $66M (not to meniion, they both start and don't come off the bench lol)
ATL - $45M
TOR - $22M

I wonder why you ignored PHI or MIL tho?

Not to mention, only looking out East means ignoring the sorry state of backups in the West.

Spoiler:

OKC - Jaylin Williams
LAL - Jaxson Hayes
DEN - JV
Hou - Adams
SAS - Kornet
MIN - Naz
PHO - Ighodaro
GSW - IDK who even backs up here

So straight garbage outside Adams/Kornet/Naz.

So not shockingly to me, if you actually look at the full picture instead of cherry picking 6 teams the actual state of backup C's shows their is VERY few that are any good, and even less that were even realistically obtainable.

[DelAbbot]

I think we need to also take into consideration that Jak is clearly dealing with back issues... he does not look the same. I've also voiced my concerns about trading for him but let's not act like his back isn't the main issue right now to justify the position of not wanting him here in the first place.

We are not "justify(ing) the position of not wanting him here"

We are debating the merits of handing him, in the summer of him turning 30, an extension for his age 32,33,34 age seasons for 27M+ each, given his bball skill limitations and risk of decline in health (back). The only way this makes sense is if we are title contending this season and next season like the Blue Jays, where to secure his production near term, we overpay (adjusted for health risk) in the distant future seasons. But we are not contending this season for the finals.

What was the alternative? His back was fine at the time as well. Say we let him walk... we now have no center, lost a pick for nothing and go into this season trying to compete. The main issues stemmed from delaying a rebuild and trading for him, once we did are hands we're tied. It's possible we could have let him test his market value and matched but that was a risk.

Before the extension Poeltl was under contract for this season at 19M. He could walk in FA next summer, but that's a choice we made with FVV, so why is it our hands are tied? And if our hands were tied, it's due to the FO's lack of acquiring center depth and prospects over the years.

[YogurtProducer]

Detroit - Duren + Beef Stew
Knicks - KAT + Mitchell Robinson
Orlando - Wendell Carter Jr + Goga
Heat - Bam + Kel Ware
Cavs - Allen + Mobley
Hawks - KP + OO

Our playoff peers seem to be doing just fine with it lol.

I would take any of those bigs over Poeltl and so should everyone eles lol. This team would improve over time with them

I don't know about WCJ/Goga. Cheaper obviously, but WCJ has been super injury prone. KP, meh... but OO is looking good.

Yeah I would take OO without even thinking twice.

Every other one is questionable once you consider salaries.

Duren - cheap this year, but will balloon to like $40M next year.
KAT - $53M
Bam - $40M
Mobley - $46M (plus $20M for Allen)
Kristaps - $31M

Poeltl might not be the best player on this list (not even might, he certainly is not), but he might be the best value. In a salary cap league that matters. If we had any of those guys it was not a simple swap for Poeltl. It would mean Poeltl + other assets.

Like say we did Poeltl + RJ + Agbaji for KAT. Are we any better tomorrow?
Or Poeltl + RJ + Agbaji for Bam + Ware - are we better?

If we are, it is minimally so and the complaint about a backup C would just transition to a new hole (not having a 2nd wing scorer).

Its a salary cap league. Every team has holes. You cant fill them all.

[tdotrep2]

We are not "justify(ing) the position of not wanting him here"

We are debating the merits of handing him, in the summer of him turning 30, an extension for his age 32,33,34 age seasons for 27M+ each, given his bball skill limitations and risk of decline in health (back). The only way this makes sense is if we are title contending this season and next season like the Blue Jays, where to secure his production near term, we overpay (adjusted for health risk) in the distant future seasons. But we are not contending this season for the finals.

What was the alternative? His back was fine at the time as well. Say we let him walk... we now have no center, lost a pick for nothing and go into this season trying to compete. The main issues stemmed from delaying a rebuild and trading for him, once we did are hands we're tied. It's possible we could have let him test his market value and matched but that was a risk.

Before the extension Poeltl was under contract for this season at 19M. He could walk in FA next summer, but that's a choice we made with FVV, so why is it our hands are tied? And if our hands were tied, it's due to the FO's lack of acquiring center depth and prospects over the years.

iirc we offered fred a new contract during the season, then we tried trading him

[PushDaRock]

He was paid about 20m a year last 2 seasons, for his age 28 and 29 seasons. And that was a very valuable contract for his production at those age.

Poeltl is about to get 27m a year for his age 32,33 and 34 seasons, and he's already having back problems, which are most likely recurring for big men.

Should we be counting the value of the total extension or just the last 2 seasons because they were able to frontload?

Yes, because when Turner re-negotiated in 2022/2023, the frontloaded salary was neither positively nor negatively contributing to contention - because they were not contending in 2022/2023. Whereas in the 2023/2024 and more importantly 2024/2025, they were contending and thus the lower Turned AAV in those years helped with putting a better team on the court for contention.

Now, Poeltl on the other hand is making a good-value (when healthy) 19M this year and next year, when we are not expected to be contending. But if we were to contend in 2027 onwards, the diminished Poeltl will be here at a high AAV of 27M+, eating up cap space that could be used for other improvements on the court. Bobby screwed up what he's known for - salary cap management.

I don't think it's a 100% fair comparison since they still ended up paying him 30m a year on that extension. They still could have convinced him to take less, let's say 25m in AAV instead of 30m, front loaded and had an extra 5m in space to use for those years they contended.

Turner was making 14-15% of the cap those 2 years even if you want to count it at 20m

Jak is projected to be making 15-16% of the cap for the guaranteed extension years and 14% for the non fully guaranteed one.

It's not some massive difference with the cap projected to go up as long as his play doesn't fall off a cliff.

[PushDaRock]

What was the alternative? His back was fine at the time as well. Say we let him walk... we now have no center, lost a pick for nothing and go into this season trying to compete. The main issues stemmed from delaying a rebuild and trading for him, once we did are hands we're tied. It's possible we could have let him test his market value and matched but that was a risk.

Before the extension Poeltl was under contract for this season at 19M. He could walk in FA next summer, but that's a choice we made with FVV, so why is it our hands are tied? And if our hands were tied, it's due to the FO's lack of acquiring center depth and prospects over the years.

iirc we offered fred a new contract during the season, then we tried trading him

Contract values exploded after we signed OG and Fred to their extensions, which meant we were limited in terms of the amounts we could offer to extend them. The max we could have offered OG was 4 years 112m, he ended up getting 5 years at 212.5m by going to FA. The max we could have offered Fred was 4 years 114m and he got a 3 year max with a team option from the Rockets.

[Psubs]

Luke Kornet took less than the MLE to go to play with Wemby. I would've given him the full MLE.

Zach Edey and Luke Kornet at C would have the Raptors maintaining a top seed in the East.

[HumbleRen]

Jordan would be fine today. Jordan would not be making all-nba teams.

Was it? Jordan was very limited, and propped up fairly heavily by playing with one of the GOAT PG's.

Sure. I don't think it is going to be a massive dropoff. The last year of the deal might be a problem, but it is also non-guaranteed.

There is also no guarantee we keep him for the entire deal.

You cant count on that for most FO's. Most backup 7 footers are horrible.

Detroit - Duren + Beef Stew
Knicks - KAT + Mitchell Robinson
Orlando - Wendell Carter Jr + Goga
Heat - Bam + Kel Ware
Cavs - Allen + Mobley
Hawks - KP + OO

Our playoff peers seem to be doing just fine with it lol.

Well yeah, these teams spent considerably more or are not an upgrade over Poeltl/Mamu.

DET - $20M this year, $50M(?) next
NYK - $65M (not to mention, Robinson has played 60 games over 3 seasons, so really it is KAT + Precious for 2 seasons who you whined about here as well)
ORL- $20M (plus $15M for Issac) (I take Jak over these 2 any day of the week lol)
MIA - $41M (not to mention, Ware/Bam start together often)
CLE - $66M (not to meniion, they both start and don't come off the bench lol)
ATL - $45M
TOR - $22M

I wonder why you ignored PHI or MIL tho?

Not to mention, only looking out East means ignoring the sorry state of backups in the West.

Spoiler:

OKC - Jaylin Williams
LAL - Jaxson Hayes
DEN - JV
Hou - Adams
SAS - Kornet
MIN - Naz
PHO - Ighodaro
GSW - IDK who even backs up here

So straight garbage outside Adams/Kornet/Naz.

So not shockingly to me, if you actually look at the full picture instead of cherry picking 6 teams the actual state of backup C's shows their is VERY few that are any good, and even less that were even realistically obtainable.

I’m looking at our playoff peers. Bucks aren’t in the picture and I thought Philly was pretty obvious, Embiid is damaged goods.

I’d love to have Jaylin Williams on my team. Are you smoking something?

JV is more than fine as a back up for their team.

Adams is a great back up big.

You can make all the excuses you want for this FO. We’re going half a decade without a quality back up 7 footer now.

[PushDaRock]

Detroit - Duren + Beef Stew
Knicks - KAT + Mitchell Robinson
Orlando - Wendell Carter Jr + Goga
Heat - Bam + Kel Ware
Cavs - Allen + Mobley
Hawks - KP + OO

Our playoff peers seem to be doing just fine with it lol.

Well yeah, these teams spent considerably more or are not an upgrade over Poeltl/Mamu.

DET - $20M this year, $50M(?) next
NYK - $65M (not to mention, Robinson has played 60 games over 3 seasons, so really it is KAT + Precious for 2 seasons who you whined about here as well)
ORL- $20M (plus $15M for Issac) (I take Jak over these 2 any day of the week lol)
MIA - $41M (not to mention, Ware/Bam start together often)
CLE - $66M (not to meniion, they both start and don't come off the bench lol)
ATL - $45M
TOR - $22M

I wonder why you ignored PHI or MIL tho?

Not to mention, only looking out East means ignoring the sorry state of backups in the West.

Spoiler:

OKC - Jaylin Williams
LAL - Jaxson Hayes
DEN - JV
Hou - Adams
SAS - Kornet
MIN - Naz
PHO - Ighodaro
GSW - IDK who even backs up here

So straight garbage outside Adams/Kornet/Naz.

So not shockingly to me, if you actually look at the full picture instead of cherry picking 6 teams the actual state of backup C's shows their is VERY few that are any good, and even less that were even realistically obtainable.

I’m looking at our playoff peers. Bucks aren’t in the picture and I thought Philly was pretty obvious, Embiid is damaged goods.

I’d love to have Jaylin Williams on my team. Are you smoking something?

JV is more than fine as a back up for their team.

Adams is a great back up big.

You can make all the excuses you want for this FO. We’re going half a decade without a quality back up 7 footer now.

You're complaining about not having a Back-Up C and that Mamu is undersized but Jaylin Williams isn't?

[Tor_Raps]

I said it before but this front office being allergic to Centers made Poeltl a critical piece and look much better than his actual skill is. He started for the Spurs for years and the only competition we had for him were the Celtics who wanted to use him as their backup/3rd Center.

I still like his game but theres a lot to not like for how much he'll be making in the backend of this contract.

[HumbleRen]

Well yeah, these teams spent considerably more or are not an upgrade over Poeltl/Mamu.

DET - $20M this year, $50M(?) next
NYK - $65M (not to mention, Robinson has played 60 games over 3 seasons, so really it is KAT + Precious for 2 seasons who you whined about here as well)
ORL- $20M (plus $15M for Issac) (I take Jak over these 2 any day of the week lol)
MIA - $41M (not to mention, Ware/Bam start together often)
CLE - $66M (not to meniion, they both start and don't come off the bench lol)
ATL - $45M
TOR - $22M

I wonder why you ignored PHI or MIL tho?

Not to mention, only looking out East means ignoring the sorry state of backups in the West.

Spoiler:

OKC - Jaylin Williams
LAL - Jaxson Hayes
DEN - JV
Hou - Adams
SAS - Kornet
MIN - Naz
PHO - Ighodaro
GSW - IDK who even backs up here

So straight garbage outside Adams/Kornet/Naz.

So not shockingly to me, if you actually look at the full picture instead of cherry picking 6 teams the actual state of backup C's shows their is VERY few that are any good, and even less that were even realistically obtainable.

I’m looking at our playoff peers. Bucks aren’t in the picture and I thought Philly was pretty obvious, Embiid is damaged goods.

I’d love to have Jaylin Williams on my team. Are you smoking something?

JV is more than fine as a back up for their team.

Adams is a great back up big.

You can make all the excuses you want for this FO. We’re going half a decade without a quality back up 7 footer now.

You're complaining about not having a Back-Up C and that Mamu is undersized but Jaylin Williams isn't?

Mamu is soft as hell, we make CMB and Scottie guard the 5’s when he’s on the court. Jaylin Williams is as physical as they come.

[HumbleRen]

I said it before but this front office being allergic to Centers made Poeltl a critical piece and look much better than his actual skill is. He started for the Spurs for years and the only competition we had for him were the Celtics who wanted to use him as their backup/3rd Center.

I still like his game but theres a lot to not like for how much he'll be making in the backend of this contract.

They did the same thing with FVV. Had non nba caliber back up guards for his entire tenure with us once Lowry left.

[JB7]

That's very narrow way of thinking this through considering jury's still out on CMB and the other rookies. I mean, you don't even have to go very far. Look at Ja'Kobe Walter. Why did we need another undersized SG? Heck, why TF did we even need Mogbo with Barnes already here and now so easily rendered useless by CMB?

The point some are trying to make is we need a backup C, and those were the two C's considered around the time of the draft, that were in the range of the Raps pick. So, knowing that they only had Yak at C, the cheapest route to fill the need was draft one of them.

I think they probably went with a better choice in CMB, who offers more on the defensive end, while giving up some size, because Queen doesn't really offer anything defensively, while Maluach is not playable right now.

The Raps FO appears to be generally taking the best player available with their picks, which based on their draft record has seemed to work.

Huh? Dick's not working out. Walter's not working out. Mogbo's not working out. Need I go on?

The point you are missing is that 2025 draft is not the only draft in existence. They've failed in multiple drafts because they gave picks away, failed to tank properly, and/or failed to draft for need at spots where it is more appropriate to do so.

Oh the great tanking strategy. Years of bottoming out that has worked for so many teams.

Raps have employed the tanking strategy strategically, and it has worked out alright for them. It got them Barnes.

I would take the Raps drafting strategy over most organizations in the league.

[PushDaRock]

I’m looking at our playoff peers. Bucks aren’t in the picture and I thought Philly was pretty obvious, Embiid is damaged goods.

I’d love to have Jaylin Williams on my team. Are you smoking something?

JV is more than fine as a back up for their team.

Adams is a great back up big.

You can make all the excuses you want for this FO. We’re going half a decade without a quality back up 7 footer now.

You're complaining about not having a Back-Up C and that Mamu is undersized but Jaylin Williams isn't?

Mamu is soft as hell, we make CMB and Scottie guard the 5’s when he’s on the court. Jaylin Williams is as physical as they come.

Disagree about him being soft, they like using him out on the perimeter because of his mobility. Also has clearly been working so far when looking at his DRTG. I would also much rather have Mamu this year, Jaylin Williams is at 5.6 ppg on 50 TS%. Some "physical" play isn't making up for being that much of a liability offensively.

[kalel123]

The point some are trying to make is we need a backup C, and those were the two C's considered around the time of the draft, that were in the range of the Raps pick. So, knowing that they only had Yak at C, the cheapest route to fill the need was draft one of them.

I think they probably went with a better choice in CMB, who offers more on the defensive end, while giving up some size, because Queen doesn't really offer anything defensively, while Maluach is not playable right now.

The Raps FO appears to be generally taking the best player available with their picks, which based on their draft record has seemed to work.

Huh? Dick's not working out. Walter's not working out. Mogbo's not working out. Need I go on?

The point you are missing is that 2025 draft is not the only draft in existence. They've failed in multiple drafts because they gave picks away, failed to tank properly, and/or failed to draft for need at spots where it is more appropriate to do so.

Oh the great tanking strategy. Years of bottoming out that has worked for so many teams.

Raps have employed the tanking strategy strategically, and it has worked out alright for them. It got them Barnes.

I would take the Raps drafting strategy over most organizations in the league.

LOL @ calling backing ass backwards into a tank being "strategic". Tanking multiple times and having only one player to show for it is not doing alright. Only thing half-assed tanking "strategy" has done is ensuring we get low enough pick to miss out on cream of the crop for a given year and we get nothing to show for it for the last few.

[HumbleRen]

You're complaining about not having a Back-Up C and that Mamu is undersized but Jaylin Williams isn't?

Mamu is soft as hell, we make CMB and Scottie guard the 5’s when he’s on the court. Jaylin Williams is as physical as they come.

Disagree about him being soft, they like using him out on the perimeter because of his mobility. Also has clearly been working so far when looking at his DRTG. I would also much rather have Mamu this year, Jaylin Williams is at 5.6 ppg on 50 TS%. Some "physical" play isn't making up for being that much of a liability offensively.

Useless stat.

Gradey Dick has a better DRTG than Scottie Barnes.

If you think we’re perfectly fine with Mamu as our back up 5 then I have nothing more to say on this lol.

[YogurtProducer]

You're complaining about not having a Back-Up C and that Mamu is undersized but Jaylin Williams isn't?

Mamu is soft as hell, we make CMB and Scottie guard the 5’s when he’s on the court. Jaylin Williams is as physical as they come.

Disagree about him being soft, they like using him out on the perimeter because of his mobility. Also has clearly been working so far when looking at his DRTG. I would also much rather have Mamu this year, Jaylin Williams is at 5.6 ppg on 50 TS%. Some "physical" play isn't making up for being that much of a liability offensively.

Right? People seem to be ignoring that Mamu does some things well and others less well. That is what a back up is.

But yeah, 35% shooting Jaylin Williams is better

Honestly outside of the elite backups like Oknongwu, or Naz Reid, I really don't think most guys would make a significant difference. Like if we had Goga instead of Mamu, we probably are still 15-10.

At the end of the day, Mamu is putting up 18/8/3 per 36 on 62.6TS%. You really can't expect much more from your backup 5.

[JB7]

I would take any of those bigs over Poeltl and so should everyone eles lol. This team would improve over time with them

Context matters. The Raps were without a C. Acquiring one, which is difficult in the first place, would have cost a hell of a lot more than the 2024 FRP they gave up for Yak, if they were interested in any of KAT, Bam, Allen, & Mobley. Duren and Ware were unknowns, hence going at the 13th and 15th draft slots. The rest are all comparable in terms of overall impact or worse than Yak.

I think you are missing the point that all those teams have more than one. We have Yak, his broken back, and no one.

The Raps FO, has decided they don't want to invest heavily in a position where most true C's are limited to playing just that role. Especially a role that was in significant decline until recently. A lot of C's still can get played off the floor at critical moments of the game. So instead they have invested in players that can fill in multiple roles (Mogbo & CMB).

[JB7]

Huh? Dick's not working out. Walter's not working out. Mogbo's not working out. Need I go on?

The point you are missing is that 2025 draft is not the only draft in existence. They've failed in multiple drafts because they gave picks away, failed to tank properly, and/or failed to draft for need at spots where it is more appropriate to do so.

Oh the great tanking strategy. Years of bottoming out that has worked for so many teams.

Raps have employed the tanking strategy strategically, and it has worked out alright for them. It got them Barnes.

I would take the Raps drafting strategy over most organizations in the league.

LOL @ calling backing ass backwards into a tank being "strategic". Tanking multiple times and having only one player to show for it is not doing alright. Only thing half-assed tanking "strategy" has done is ensuring we get low enough pick to miss out on cream of the crop for a given year and we get nothing to show for it for the last few.

The best examples of strategic tanking is what the Spurs did when they lucked into Duncan. What the Raps did the when they lucked into Barnes. What the Pacers are doing this year, and what the Celtics should be doing this year.

With how the lottery odds are structured, it is just harder to position the team for a high level of success in the draft.

[PushDaRock]

Mamu is soft as hell, we make CMB and Scottie guard the 5’s when he’s on the court. Jaylin Williams is as physical as they come.

Disagree about him being soft, they like using him out on the perimeter because of his mobility. Also has clearly been working so far when looking at his DRTG. I would also much rather have Mamu this year, Jaylin Williams is at 5.6 ppg on 50 TS%. Some "physical" play isn't making up for being that much of a liability offensively.

Useless stat.

Gradey Dick has a better DRTG than Scottie Barnes.

If you think we’re perfectly fine with Mamu as our back up 5 then I have nothing more to say on this lol.

He sure does, probably propped up with all his mins played with Mamu

DRTG is a useless stat? What's a useful defensive stat then?

Cool Cool Cool