Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[YogurtProducer]

Good luck finding one. I too wish for delusional things.

Are you ever not a **** ****?

I literally started this convo by saying:

Likely not happening until next season at the earliest, and if I am being honest might not ever happen. Just gotta keep internally building and hope the stars align.

[HumbleRen]

Good luck finding one. I too wish for delusional things.

Are you ever not a **** ****?

I literally started this convo by saying:

Likely not happening until next season at the earliest, and if I am being honest might not ever happen. Just gotta keep internally building and hope the stars align.

I’m just laughing at how dismissive you are about Ingram like he didn’t save Scottie, IQ and RJ from embarrassment on offence.

Maybe give him more grace instead of saying dumb **** like we don’t need him.

[YogurtProducer]

Sure, but a decade of prior performance takes precedence in my mind.

That, and for the first 18 games, he was at 58.5%, which is +0.2% rTS.

So, as Humble noted, we're talking about a shooting slump and likely nothing else, so judging him on that seems... premature and hasty.

A decade of precedence that tells you what? That he is a league average efficiency scorer? His ftr and 3pt% is low. Other than that, he is playing exactly how he has his entire career.

Lowry averaged 20+ ppg in two seasons, and only once more averaged more than 17.9 ppg (in the 2020 shortened season). And he was under 58% TS in that first 20+ ppg season. Just so we're on the same page of particulars.

He averaged 19.7ppg on 59.8TS% between 2015 and 2018.

But either way. 17.9ppg is such a cherry picked thing when if you change it to 17.7ppg it goes from 3 occasions to 5, and at 17.0 goes to 6 lol

"Plenty" is a strong word, remembering that he's a guy who is extremely adept at attacking with a live dribble. Those guys are less common, and less realistic targets..

So are a lot of players.

Ingram has put up a putrid 0.83ppp on iso's this year. One of the worst among high isolation rate players.
In 2024 it was 0.96. In 2023 it was 0.94.

He is a fine player, and plays a style we desperately need. But he more Demar than Kawhi. Fine transitional piece in ours eras, but he is never going to be here when we are a serious team.

I'd take Booker over Ingram as well, but he isn't an option. Mitchell, too, but Cleveland would laugh in your face trying to acquire him with our assets. So he also isn't a reasonable point of discussion. I doubt Boston's going to give up Brown, but prior to this season, no one was saying he was a better scorer than someone like Ingram because he was rocking 23.5 ppg on 100 TS+ the past 6 seasons, which is very similar to Ingram.

Again, never said any of those guy were obtainable. Just that I would prefer them.

But if a trade for a guy like that comes available - you are willing to move Ingram without 2nd thought. I was just replying to Humble who suggested an improvement over Ingram = Kawhi. my point being there is a lot of guys better than Ingram, worse than Kawhi.

[YogurtProducer]

Good luck finding one. I too wish for delusional things.

Are you ever not a **** ****?

I literally started this convo by saying:

Likely not happening until next season at the earliest, and if I am being honest might not ever happen. Just gotta keep internally building and hope the stars align.

I’m just laughing at how dismissive you are about Ingram like he didn’t save Scottie, IQ and RJ from embarrassment on offence.

Maybe give him more grace instead of saying dumb **** like we don’t need him.

Do you read my posts? Like in real life do you keep your mouth shut long enough to even listen to others? To quote myself AGAIN:

I have no misconceptions that we need his skill set, but we don’t need Ingram.

Ingram needs to be the next to go. His best games you can see the vision of this future team, Ingram just isn't consistent enough to be that guy. But the next time a scorer comes up we need to be offering Ingram + every pick we got to get a core of IQ/Barnes/STUD as I legit think that could be a top 3 worth building around.

Like don't respond to me if you're gong to just to be an asshat, and completely disregard what is being said.

Can't wait for us to win a few games in a row so you don't come around again for a while.

Warned. Personal attack

[Duffman100]

Are you ever not a **** ****?

I literally started this convo by saying:

I’m just laughing at how dismissive you are about Ingram like he didn’t save Scottie, IQ and RJ from embarrassment on offence.

Maybe give him more grace instead of saying dumb **** like we don’t need him.

Do you read my posts? Like in real life do you keep your mouth shut long enough to even listen to others? To quote myself AGAIN:

I have no misconceptions that we need his skill set, but we don’t need Ingram.

Ingram needs to be the next to go. His best games you can see the vision of this future team, Ingram just isn't consistent enough to be that guy. But the next time a scorer comes up we need to be offering Ingram + every pick we got to get a core of IQ/Barnes/STUD as I legit think that could be a top 3 worth building around.

Like don't respond to me if you're gong to just to be an asshat, and completely disregard what is being said.

Can't wait for us to win a few games in a row so you don't come around again for a while.

Warned. Personal attack

Alright let's take a breath and stop with the personal attacks. Maybe take the night away from each other.

[HumbleRen]

Are you ever not a **** ****?

I literally started this convo by saying:

I’m just laughing at how dismissive you are about Ingram like he didn’t save Scottie, IQ and RJ from embarrassment on offence.

Maybe give him more grace instead of saying dumb **** like we don’t need him.

Do you read my posts? Like in real life do you keep your mouth shut long enough to even listen to others? To quote myself AGAIN:

I have no misconceptions that we need his skill set, but we don’t need Ingram.

Ingram needs to be the next to go. His best games you can see the vision of this future team, Ingram just isn't consistent enough to be that guy. But the next time a scorer comes up we need to be offering Ingram + every pick we got to get a core of IQ/Barnes/STUD as I legit think that could be a top 3 worth building around.

Like don't respond to me if you're gong to just to be an asshat, and completely disregard what is being said.

Can't wait for us to win a few games in a row so you don't come around again for a while.

Warned. Personal attack

You’re being dismissive and already can’t wait to replace him lol. Maybe take your own advice when you defend IQ when people say he should traded and apply it with BI.

Dude was inactive for basically an entire year and you won’t even give him grace when he’s in a slump. Hilarious.

[YogurtProducer]

I’m just laughing at how dismissive you are about Ingram like he didn’t save Scottie, IQ and RJ from embarrassment on offence.

Maybe give him more grace instead of saying dumb **** like we don’t need him.

Do you read my posts? Like in real life do you keep your mouth shut long enough to even listen to others? To quote myself AGAIN:

I have no misconceptions that we need his skill set, but we don’t need Ingram.

Ingram needs to be the next to go. His best games you can see the vision of this future team, Ingram just isn't consistent enough to be that guy. But the next time a scorer comes up we need to be offering Ingram + every pick we got to get a core of IQ/Barnes/STUD as I legit think that could be a top 3 worth building around.

Like don't respond to me if you're gong to just to be an asshat, and completely disregard what is being said.

Can't wait for us to win a few games in a row so you don't come around again for a while.

Warned. Personal attack

You’re being dismissive and already can’t wait to replace him lol. Maybe take your own advice when you defend IQ when people say he should traded and apply it with BI.

Dude was inactive for basically an entire year and you won’t even give him grace when he’s in a slump. Hilarious.

Man… please read my posts lol

This doesn’t have anything to do with a “slump”

[tsherkin]

A decade of precedence that tells you what? That he is a league average efficiency scorer? His ftr and 3pt% is low. Other than that, he is playing exactly how he has his entire career.

That he is likely to normalize as the season progresses. He won't continue to shoot this poorly from 3, and his efficiency should correct itself. He won't magically turn into Kawhi, we're on the same page there. And he has a bunch of other weaknesses as well, no doubt.

But you can't look at his seasonal averages (and more specifically, the last 6-8 games which have actually informed those) and take too much away from that about his overall value.

But either way. 17.9ppg is such a cherry picked thing when if you change it to 17.7ppg it goes from 3 occasions to 5, and at 17.0 goes to 6 lol

Sure. The 17.9 isn't the threshold. It's that he hasn't scored 18+ ppg except in those three seasons and I used the actual number from his next-highest seasonal scoring average. You arranged an average over three years and I pointed out that a) he'd only actually scored 20+ twice and b) he'd only posted 60%+ TS in one of those two seasons.

Mind that I'd raised Lowry's name first to begin with; his overall value on offense, regardless of 20+ ppg seasons, was quite obviously higher than BI's because he was a much better playmaker and added much more rim pressure. AND he was a quality defender beyond that. So you'll not get argument from me that Lowry was better, because that was my point in the first place

[quoteSo are a lot of players.

Ingram has put up a putrid 0.83ppp on iso's this year. One of the worst among high isolation rate players.
In 2024 it was 0.96. In 2023 it was 0.94.[/quote]

Yep, and that's heavily invested in recent games, which weigh heavily over a quarter season. That's why I spoke of the previous 9 seasons.

He is a fine player, and plays a style we desperately need. But he more Demar than Kawhi. Fine transitional piece in ours eras, but he is never going to be here when we are a serious team.

Hard to argue that point, and I never was

I am not invested in the Kawhi side of things. Kawhi was a superstar. He's the best player to ever put on a Raptors uniform, when he was healthy. He and Ingram are very clearly quite distant from one another. I've noted this multiple times. You keep coming back to him when you reply to me, but I'm not the posted who made that comparison, nor who continued it.

Again, never said any of those guy were obtainable. Just that I would prefer them.

But if a trade for a guy like that comes available - you are willing to move Ingram without 2nd thought. I was just replying to Humble who suggested an improvement over Ingram = Kawhi. my point being there is a lot of guys better than Ingram, worse than Kawhi.

Yes, if we could acquire any of those guys by giving up BI, I'd do it in a heartbeat, for sure.

[PushDaRock]

Rough game for Scottie. Not a good match-up for him with OG guarding him.

His 3 ball seems to be coming back down to Earth as well.

[dTox]

I thought I accidentally ventured into the BI thread lol

[Indeed]

I thought I accidentally ventured into the BI thread lol

I feel the same too, but on this thread, other players can be criticized since VanVleet, Siakam, and now Barrett or even Ingram. For some reason, others are to blame.

[ATLTimekeeper]

4th percentile post up efficiency. Can't drive and kick. Can't pull up and shoot. You can't just give him the ball and expect good offense. He has to be an operative working off others, where others are then working off him. This is exactly why Bobby and Darko sat him down and gave him a new role to start the year, and we saw him flourish within those strict parameters.

When he gets pushed into a creator/decision-maker role, he's overextended by having to rely on his handle and shooting off the dribble.

[PushDaRock]

4th percentile post up efficiency. Can't drive and kick. Can't pull up and shoot. You can't just give him the ball and expect good offense. He has to be an operative working off others, where others are then working off him. This is exactly why Bobby and Darko sat him down and gave him a new role to start the year, and we saw him flourish within those strict parameters.

When he gets pushed into a creator/decision-maker role, he's overextended by having to rely on his handle and shooting off the dribble.

Yeah, we really don't want him trying to expand his role or he ends up reverting back to last year. The higher passing support has helped prop up his efficiency.

His production has been basically identical the last 3 seasons, only variance has been the efficiency. Some tweaks here and there for some minor improvements is about all we can expect, there's unlikely to be any major leaps coming. This is pretty much who he is barring something unforeseen.

[Raps in 4]

I wish we'd picked Franz or Sengun.

[tsherkin]

4th percentile post up efficiency. Can't drive and kick. Can't pull up and shoot. You can't just give him the ball and expect good offense. He has to be an operative working off others, where others are then working off him. This is exactly why Bobby and Darko sat him down and gave him a new role to start the year, and we saw him flourish within those strict parameters.

When he gets pushed into a creator/decision-maker role, he's overextended by having to rely on his handle and shooting off the dribble.

This is the thing. Scottie's wonderful. We're finally using him the way we need to. We shouldn't try to go back to what wasn't working before just because we're struggling now. We've got him doing what we want him to do, and he looks pretty awesome doing it. Given how absent projection was for his scoring ability prior to the draft, he's come a huge way to be this strong for us as a scoring threat in this role. No need to screw that up now.

He isn't that kind of player, and no amount of squeezing the stone will draw forth blood, right? We need to find OTHER guys who can do that so he can keep crushing it in his current form. That's what BI is for, at least in concept (and over the first like 18 games or whatever). And RJ doing his thing around all that.

It's frustrating to see Scottie doing well and people suddenly wanting more and more and more. We finally just got him to a place where we can't really complain, find fault or anything. We should just be appreciating what he is bringing at the moment.

[MiamiSPX]

It's frustrating to see Scottie doing well and people suddenly wanting more and more and more. We finally just got him to a place where we can't really complain, find fault or anything. We should just be appreciating what he is bringing at the moment.

This x 10000. Same people calling his contract an albatross in the preseason, now want more than 20/8/5 and All-Defensive. It's insanity.

He was downright awful last night. That was an embarrassing performance. It does not, however, overshadow the previous 25 games.

[tsherkin]

It's frustrating to see Scottie doing well and people suddenly wanting more and more and more. We finally just got him to a place where we can't really complain, find fault or anything. We should just be appreciating what he is bringing at the moment.

This x 10000. Same people calling his contract an albatross in the preseason, now want more than 20/8/5 and All-Defensive. It's insanity.

He was downright awful last night. That was an embarrassing performance. It does not, however, overshadow the previous 25 games.

I'm in a weird place myself. I was very down on Scottie in his previous role. High on his D, high on his rebounding and value as a transition playmaker, but super down on us using him as any sort of volume initiator. I was often calling for a change in his role. We've done that, and it's worked out great, but at least while this FT% and 3pt shooting maintains, he's sustaining a higher level of usage than I was expecting to be a good idea out of him, heh. So right now, I'm enjoying every second of watching him playing at this level and waiting to see how long it lasts.

I really hope we keep putting him in position to succeed within the parameters his abilities allow instead of trying to force him into a role for which he's not suited, because he looks fantastic at the moment.

[Indeed]

It's frustrating to see Scottie doing well and people suddenly wanting more and more and more. We finally just got him to a place where we can't really complain, find fault or anything. We should just be appreciating what he is bringing at the moment.

This x 10000. Same people calling his contract an albatross in the preseason, now want more than 20/8/5 and All-Defensive. It's insanity.

He was downright awful last night. That was an embarrassing performance. It does not, however, overshadow the previous 25 games.

If he is All-Defensive, our defense would not be a concern, yet, it is still a concern.
His contract is not albatross, but still far from justifying his contract should be paid more than Ingram.

[tsherkin]

If he is All-Defensive, our defense would not be a concern, yet, it is still a concern.

That doesn't follow.

One guy can do only so much on D, after all, and he is surrounded by questionable defenders, weakness on the boards and absent rim protection.

Even Olajuwon participated on some middling regular-season defenses (even in 86, when he took them to the Finals!).

One All-D means only so much on a team level. It's a lot better than NO All-D guys, but you can't land the whole responsibility of the team's D on a guy who is surrounded with what Scottie has around him defensively. That just doesn't make sense.

[Indeed]

If he is All-Defensive, our defense would not be a concern, yet, it is still a concern.

That doesn't follow.

One guy can do only so much on D, after all, and he is surrounded by questionable defenders, weakness on the boards and absent rim protection.

Even Olajuwon participated on some middling regular-season defenses (even in 86, when he took them to the Finals!).

One All-D means only so much on a team level. It's a lot better than NO All-D guys, but you can't land the whole responsibility of the team's D on a guy who is surrounded with what Scottie has around him defensively. That just doesn't make sense.

Last few games without Barrett, and in particularly, having Agbaji on the last game, does that really make sense to claim he is surrounded by questionable defenders?