Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[tsherkin]

That's just not really true at all, he has not always been a better scorer than Scottie. You're telling me you would have guessed Avdija after year 3 would be a better scorer than Scottie after his year 3?

No, I was being loose with my phrasing because it's been a couple seasons where it's been evident, that's fair enough. He was linearly progressing, but he was a single-digit scorer largely stuck on the bench for Washington. The rebounding was there, the passing game was there, but his shot took some time to develop. The second they began starting him, however, it was very clear.

I am just saying some of his comparables have leapfrogged him and they also happen to be making less money and that's probably where the whining from some people is coming from.

That makes sense, sure. Or at least, I grok the explanation, even if I think those falling prey to that are making a mistake.

[ATLTimekeeper]

That's just not really true at all, he has not always been a better scorer than Scottie. You're telling me you would have guessed Avdija after year 3 would be a better scorer than Scottie after his year 3?

No, I was being loose with my phrasing because it's been a couple seasons where it's been evident, that's fair enough. He was linearly progressing, but he was a single-digit scorer largely stuck on the bench for Washington. The rebounding was there, the passing game was there, but his shot took some time to develop. The second they began starting him, however, it was very clear.

I am just saying some of his comparables have leapfrogged him and they also happen to be making less money and that's probably where the whining from some people is coming from.

That makes sense, sure. Or at least, I grok the explanation, even if I think those falling prey to that are making a mistake.

A little history with Avdija. Mike Schmitz, when he was writing for DraftExpress, was really high on him and wrote that he viewed him as a lead guard in the NBA down the road. Schmitz was hired as assistant GM by the Trailblazers and is responsible for orchestrating that heist from the Wizards. He is now one of the most prolific drivers in the NBA.

[tsherkin]

A little history with Avdija. Mike Schmitz, when he was writing for DraftExpress, was really high on him and wrote that he viewed him as a lead guard in the NBA down the road. Schmitz was hired as assistant GM by the Trailblazers and is responsible for orchestrating that heist from the Wizards. He is now one of the most prolific drivers in the NBA.

Makes sense.

And yes, he is presently leading the entire league in drives per game at 19.5, which is +1.6 over the next guy (Josh Giddey), and the one right after (Cade, at 17.8).

[whitehops]

Where we're at is that he is needs more to be the team most paid player.

He's a 40 million-dollar guy, which is approximately a quarter of the cap.

You're treating him like he's a top-salary guy as opposed to merely one of the two highest-paid guys on the team (the other is Ingram, at a meaninglessly-smaller amount). Kobe was 36%+ of LA's cap in the 09 season, for example. THAT'S your top-paid guy who has to shoulder all those burdens of expectations. You're errantly trying to treat Scottie the same way, and it doesn't make sense. He's neither that kind of player, nor is he paid like such a player.

the raps gave him literally the most they could, that usually comes with anticipation of a pretty big role. comparing his 25% to kobe's 36% of the cap is pretty insincere (veteran contract vs. rookie contract extension).

he's making more than: SGA, maxey, sengun, brunson, adebayo, etc. all those guys play huge roles for their teams and at an all-nba level. heck, josh giddey signed an extension for $25M and he's the offensive engine for the bulls.

it's not a big issue, the raps can't un-sign the contract but there's no need to pretend like it's good value at this point for the role that barnes plays.

[tsherkin]

the raps gave him literally the most they could, that usually comes with anticipation of a pretty big role. comparing his 25% to kobe's 36% of the cap is pretty insincere (veteran contract vs. rookie contract extension).

It inherently isn't the same, though. He isn't paid the same as the guys whose production matches the expectations landing on him, regardless of if it was the most they could pay him at the time. There's another tier of pay beyond where he is right now. Scottie's producing very well for us right now. The fact that he isn't a superstar isn't relevant to his current salary.

it's not a big issue, the raps can't un-sign the contract but there's no need to pretend like it's good value at this point for the role that barnes plays.

It's not a bargain deal, sure, but it also isn't problematic, which is the notion I was combatting.

[MiamiSPX]

the raps gave him literally the most they could, that usually comes with anticipation of a pretty big role. comparing his 25% to kobe's 36% of the cap is pretty insincere (veteran contract vs. rookie contract extension).

They gave him the most they could because they had to. The team up in Canada isn't going to start playing hardball with the Florida boy who 25 other teams would have likely been willing to sign for top dollar. Just like they will not trade BI this year no mater what. The Lakers or Heat can get away with trading a guy after 40 games who directed a trade there. That won't affect other guys wanting to go there. With the Raptors it would affect them. Any minor "transgression" like that it seen as yet another reason to not brave the cold in a foreign country. Come on man, you know this. Detroit is not exactly a destination city either.

he's making more than: SGA, maxey, sengun, brunson, adebayo, etc. all those guys play huge roles for their teams and at an all-nba level. heck, josh giddey signed an extension for $25M and he's the offensive engine for the bulls.

Free market principles. Listing those guys is disingenuous and I think you know that. SGA will make significantly more when his extension kicks in. Same with Bam. Sengun, you will get no argument from me there. His agent got taken to the woodshed by Stone.

With Brunson, it would surprise absolutely nobody if:
1) It was later discovered that Rick makes 14M per year. I am willing to bet he is the highest paid assistant coach.
2) That there are shenanigans that will come out with the whole Leon Rose and CAA angle.

Many big extensions result in said player in the first year making more than 10-15 players that are clearly better than him. That is how free market dynamics work. There is no such thing as the top players earning the most, in order, in every single year of their careers lol.

[Indeed]

the raps gave him literally the most they could, that usually comes with anticipation of a pretty big role. comparing his 25% to kobe's 36% of the cap is pretty insincere (veteran contract vs. rookie contract extension).

They gave him the most they could because they had to. The team up in Canada isn't going to start playing hardball with the Florida boy who 25 other teams would have likely been willing to sign for top dollar. Just like they will not trade BI this year no mater what. The Lakers or Heat can get away with trading a guy after 40 games who directed a trade there. That won't affect other guys wanting to go there. With the Raptors it would affect them. Any minor "transgression" like that it seen as yet another reason to not brave the cold in a foreign country. Come on man, you know this. Detroit is not exactly a destination city either.

he's making more than: SGA, maxey, sengun, brunson, adebayo, etc. all those guys play huge roles for their teams and at an all-nba level. heck, josh giddey signed an extension for $25M and he's the offensive engine for the bulls.

Free market principles. Listing those guys is disingenuous and I think you know that. SGA will make significantly more when his extension kicks in. Same with Bam. Sengun, you will get no argument from me there. His agent got taken to the woodshed by Stone.

With Brunson, it would surprise absolutely nobody if:
1) It was later discovered that Rick makes 14M per year. I am willing to bet he is the highest paid assistant coach.
2) That there are shenanigans that will come out with the whole Leon Rose and CAA angle.

Many big extensions result in said player in the first year making more than 10-15 players that are clearly better than him. That is how free market dynamics work. There is no such thing as the top players earning the most, in order, in every single year of their careers lol.

Interesting that this doesn't apply to Siakam. I mean Ingram isn't that bad of a contract without being near-max.

[mdenny]

the raps gave him literally the most they could, that usually comes with anticipation of a pretty big role. comparing his 25% to kobe's 36% of the cap is pretty insincere (veteran contract vs. rookie contract extension).

It inherently isn't the same, though. He isn't paid the same as the guys whose production matches the expectations landing on him, regardless of if it was the most they could pay him at the time. There's another tier of pay beyond where he is right now. Scottie's producing very well for us right now. The fact that he isn't a superstar isn't relevant to his current salary.

it's not a big issue, the raps can't un-sign the contract but there's no need to pretend like it's good value at this point for the role that barnes plays.

It's not a bargain deal, sure, but it also isn't problematic, which is the notion I was combatting.

Agreed. Not a bargain. Possibly could be later down the road. But it's a disingenuous issue because there is no universe in which the raptors would have tried bargaining him down without it becoming a league wide media scandal. Not giving him the max would've destroyed the franchise reputation.

He did everything a rookie contract guy can do to justify the max extension. It was a formality.

[HiJiNX]

Barnes needs to understand that he can’t afford games where he doesn’t play aggressively. What happened the other night against the Knicks was so egregiously bad. That can’t happen. Ever. I can live with turnovers and missed shots if you’re trying to be aggressive. But running away from the ball and settling for jumpers and taking yourself out of the offence? He left Ingram and the role players on an island by themselves. That’s not good leadership and he’s supposed to be the leader. Unacceptable. I hope the coaching staff gave him an earful.

[mdenny]

Barnes needs to understand that he can’t afford games where he doesn’t play aggressively. What happened the other night against the Knicks was so egregiously bad. That can’t happen. Ever. I can live with turnovers and missed shots if you’re trying to be aggressive. But running away from the ball and settling for jumpers and taking yourself out of the offence? He left Ingram and the role players on an island by themselves. That’s not good leadership and he’s supposed to be the leader. Unacceptable. I hope the coaching staff gave him an earful.

This is kinda my problem with Barnes. It seems like he tries to avoid having a "bad game" by deferring too much to others. I didnt see the Knicks game. But he can be frusterating in that he doesn't "put himself on the line". Not sure how else to explain it. There's too many team losses that he's not responsible for and i worry that he's fine with that. Star players are responsible for when their teams wins AND loses. That's why i find alot of his biggest fans to be delusional. He's simply not doing enough to be a star player from night to night. Not taking responsibility for the outcomes.

I was never a bug demar fan....but he WAS a star player. If ahots weren't dropping....he still tried to will the team to a win. Even tho he was having a bad game. Things not going well after 3 quarters? You were STILL gonna see Demar go all out in the 4th. And often he WOULD turn it around and lead us to a win even tho his box score wasn't gonna be pretty.

When things don't go right for Scott...he just kinda fades into the game in deferral mode. Like he'd rather do that than have a "bad game". That trait is gonna prevent him from going from near-star player to legit-star player.

It may be the case....that this is him. He will always be the near-star player which is fine. But it DOES mean that we should stop trying to build the team around him. That includes being open to trade him.

All that said....he's still having his best season this year.

[tsherkin]

Agreed. Not a bargain. Possibly could be later down the road. But it's a disingenuous issue because there is no universe in which the raptors would have tried bargaining him down without it becoming a league wide media scandal. Not giving him the max would've destroyed the franchise reputation.

He did everything a rookie contract guy can do to justify the max extension. It was a formality.

Indeed. He's shown a good deal of growth and he's been a very good rebounder and defensive tool since pretty much the beginning. He's reaching beyond expectation and pre-draft consensus at this point, so kvetching about him as we finally get him into the role where he can best flourish is just weird to me. Like, he's doing what we want, so suddenly that isn't enough and we have to shift the goalpost to make it "he has to be a superstar even though he isn't paid like one!" It's daft.

[whitehops]

Indeed. He's shown a good deal of growth and he's been a very good rebounder and defensive tool since pretty much the beginning. He's reaching beyond expectation and pre-draft consensus at this point, so kvetching about him as we finally get him into the role where he can best flourish is just weird to me. Like, he's doing what we want, so suddenly that isn't enough and we have to shift the goalpost to make it "he has to be a superstar even though he isn't paid like one!" It's daft.

i think HiJiNX said summed it up perfectly:

Barnes needs to understand that he can’t afford games where he doesn’t play aggressively. What happened the other night against the Knicks was so egregiously bad. That can’t happen. Ever. I can live with turnovers and missed shots if you’re trying to be aggressive. But running away from the ball and settling for jumpers and taking yourself out of the offence? He left Ingram and the role players on an island by themselves. That’s not good leadership and he’s supposed to be the leader. Unacceptable. I hope the coaching staff gave him an earful.

if your team is down your starting back court and all the play making they bring you'd *hope* your best and highest paid player would be able to take on more of a role offensively. the knicks didn't even send extra bodies at barnes, he was just content watching BI and shead make all the plays. i don't mean be a super star, just be able to handle a little more responsibility.

[HiJiNX]

Barnes needs to understand that he can’t afford games where he doesn’t play aggressively. What happened the other night against the Knicks was so egregiously bad. That can’t happen. Ever. I can live with turnovers and missed shots if you’re trying to be aggressive. But running away from the ball and settling for jumpers and taking yourself out of the offence? He left Ingram and the role players on an island by themselves. That’s not good leadership and he’s supposed to be the leader. Unacceptable. I hope the coaching staff gave him an earful.

This is kinda my problem with Barnes. It seems like he tries to avoid having a "bad game" by deferring too much to others. I didnt see the Knicks game. But he can be frusterating in that he doesn't "put himself on the line". Not sure how else to explain it. There's too many team losses that he's not responsible for and i worry that he's fine with that. Star players are responsible for when their teams wins AND loses. That's why i find alot of his biggest fans to be delusional. He's simply not doing enough to be a star player from night to night. Not taking responsibility for the outcomes.

I was never a bug demar fan....but he WAS a star player. If ahots weren't dropping....he still tried to will the team to a win. Even tho he was having a bad game. Things not going well after 3 quarters? You were STILL gonna see Demar go all out in the 4th. And often he WOULD turn it around and lead us to a win even tho his box score wasn't gonna be pretty.

When things don't go right for Scott...he just kinda fades into the game in deferral mode. Like he'd rather do that than have a "bad game". That trait is gonna prevent him from going from near-star player to legit-star player.

It may be the case....that this is him. He will always be the near-star player which is fine. But it DOES mean that we should stop trying to build the team around him. That includes being open to trade him.

All that said....he's still having his best season this year.

Spot on.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Indeed. He's shown a good deal of growth and he's been a very good rebounder and defensive tool since pretty much the beginning. He's reaching beyond expectation and pre-draft consensus at this point, so kvetching about him as we finally get him into the role where he can best flourish is just weird to me. Like, he's doing what we want, so suddenly that isn't enough and we have to shift the goalpost to make it "he has to be a superstar even though he isn't paid like one!" It's daft.

i think HiJiNX said summed it up perfectly:

Barnes needs to understand that he can’t afford games where he doesn’t play aggressively. What happened the other night against the Knicks was so egregiously bad. That can’t happen. Ever. I can live with turnovers and missed shots if you’re trying to be aggressive. But running away from the ball and settling for jumpers and taking yourself out of the offence? He left Ingram and the role players on an island by themselves. That’s not good leadership and he’s supposed to be the leader. Unacceptable. I hope the coaching staff gave him an earful.

if your team is down your starting back court and all the play making they bring you'd *hope* your best and highest paid player would be able to take on more of a role offensively. the knicks didn't even send extra bodies at barnes, he was just content watching BI and shead make all the plays. i don't mean be a super star, just be able to handle a little more responsibility.

He took 18 shots. One less than Brunson. He was plenty aggressive. 9 shots in the paint. We had no kickout options. Poeltl was garbage. Like, what do people think Scottie is actually capable of right now? He lacks these skills to just will his way to 30 points. He needs the defense to be tilted already, and he needs his 3 ball to be on.

[dandaman]

Indeed. He's shown a good deal of growth and he's been a very good rebounder and defensive tool since pretty much the beginning. He's reaching beyond expectation and pre-draft consensus at this point, so kvetching about him as we finally get him into the role where he can best flourish is just weird to me. Like, he's doing what we want, so suddenly that isn't enough and we have to shift the goalpost to make it "he has to be a superstar even though he isn't paid like one!" It's daft.

i think HiJiNX said summed it up perfectly:

Barnes needs to understand that he can’t afford games where he doesn’t play aggressively. What happened the other night against the Knicks was so egregiously bad. That can’t happen. Ever. I can live with turnovers and missed shots if you’re trying to be aggressive. But running away from the ball and settling for jumpers and taking yourself out of the offence? He left Ingram and the role players on an island by themselves. That’s not good leadership and he’s supposed to be the leader. Unacceptable. I hope the coaching staff gave him an earful.

if your team is down your starting back court and all the play making they bring you'd *hope* your best and highest paid player would be able to take on more of a role offensively. the knicks didn't even send extra bodies at barnes, he was just content watching BI and shead make all the plays. i don't mean be a super star, just be able to handle a little more responsibility.

Its a mental hurdle that he hasn't been able to overcome since he was handed the keys, I still think think you gotta give him another year or two because he has shown signs of maturity recently albeit at a much slower pace then fanbase would have liked him to.

[tsherkin]

i think HiJiNX said summed it up perfectly:

Barnes needs to understand that he can’t afford games where he doesn’t play aggressively. What happened the other night against the Knicks was so egregiously bad. That can’t happen. Ever. I can live with turnovers and missed shots if you’re trying to be aggressive. But running away from the ball and settling for jumpers and taking yourself out of the offence? He left Ingram and the role players on an island by themselves. That’s not good leadership and he’s supposed to be the leader. Unacceptable. I hope the coaching staff gave him an earful.

if your team is down your starting back court and all the play making they bring you'd *hope* your best and highest paid player would be able to take on more of a role offensively. the knicks didn't even send extra bodies at barnes, he was just content watching BI and shead make all the plays. i don't mean be a super star, just be able to handle a little more responsibility.

I think ATL covered this, but we're well aware of what Scottie can and cannot do on offense. Wanting really hard for that not to be his set of skills and limitations won't change that. He did pretty well overall, but the rest of the team needs to come the rest of the way. Not a superstar. Not a superstar. It's an important mantra. We can't be putting expectations on him as if he's a generational offensive engine, because he isn't, no matter how much we wish he was.

[mdenny]

i think HiJiNX said summed it up perfectly:

Barnes needs to understand that he can’t afford games where he doesn’t play aggressively. What happened the other night against the Knicks was so egregiously bad. That can’t happen. Ever. I can live with turnovers and missed shots if you’re trying to be aggressive. But running away from the ball and settling for jumpers and taking yourself out of the offence? He left Ingram and the role players on an island by themselves. That’s not good leadership and he’s supposed to be the leader. Unacceptable. I hope the coaching staff gave him an earful.

if your team is down your starting back court and all the play making they bring you'd *hope* your best and highest paid player would be able to take on more of a role offensively. the knicks didn't even send extra bodies at barnes, he was just content watching BI and shead make all the plays. i don't mean be a super star, just be able to handle a little more responsibility.

I think ATL covered this, but we're well aware of what Scottie can and cannot do on offense. Wanting really hard for that not to be his set of skills and limitations won't change that. He did pretty well overall, but the rest of the team needs to come the rest of the way. Not a superstar. Not a superstar. It's an important mantra. We can't be putting expectations on him as if he's a generational offensive engine, because he isn't, no matter how much we wish he was.

You're kind straw-manning tho when you say we shouldnt expect a generational superstar. There's 20 to 30 guys who take responsibility for the outcome of the game in the 4th quarter. Most of them are allstars or "star player". Siakam did that here before he was traded. He tried to be the team's best player down the stretch EVERY night. Or "he took on the role of the guy who is responsible for the outcome". Win or lose.

That's not a role exclusive to the top 5 players or generational talents. That's the role of any team's best player.

[tsherkin]

You're kind straw-manning tho when you say we shouldnt expect a generational superstar. There's 20 to 30 guys who take responsibility for the outcome of the game in the 4th quarter. Most of them are allstars or "star player". Siakam did that here before he was traded. He tried to be the team's best player down the stretch EVERY night. Or "he took on the role of the guy who is responsible for the outcome". Win or lose.

That's not a role exclusive to the top 5 players or generational talents. That's the role of any team's best player.

And yet, we also ask Scottie to be a significant playmaker and a high-end defender. How many of those are you planning on finding?

What kind of player do you think he becomes if he suddenly becomes the kind of guy you can lean on for all the things we ask of Brandon Ingram, while still maintaining efficiency?

At some point, the sheer breadth of what's being asked of him becomes unreasonable and a little clownish. There are not 20-30 guys who are asked to do all of what people want from Scottie in this league at all.

[Indeed]

You're kind straw-manning tho when you say we shouldnt expect a generational superstar. There's 20 to 30 guys who take responsibility for the outcome of the game in the 4th quarter. Most of them are allstars or "star player". Siakam did that here before he was traded. He tried to be the team's best player down the stretch EVERY night. Or "he took on the role of the guy who is responsible for the outcome". Win or lose.

That's not a role exclusive to the top 5 players or generational talents. That's the role of any team's best player.

And yet, we also ask Scottie to be a significant playmaker and a high-end defender. How many of those are you planning on finding?

What kind of player do you think he becomes if he suddenly becomes the kind of guy you can lean on for all the things we ask of Brandon Ingram, while still maintaining efficiency?

At some point, the sheer breadth of what's being asked of him becomes unreasonable and a little clownish. There are not 20-30 guys who are asked to do all of what people want from Scottie in this league at all.

If he is any kind of playmaker, we wouldnt need Quickley or another guard with Barrett out. He is more a connector, no one is really referencing him as a playmaker. This is the reason his expectation would be on the defense, but I am unsure he is at OG level on defense (maybe that is still a high-end defender?)

[tsherkin]

If he is any kind of playmaker, we wouldnt need Quickley or another guard with Barrett out.

The veracity of that statement depends very heavily on the semantic definition of "playmaker," and also comes with some hyperbole. Not everything can be boiled down to "we wouldn't need X if Scottie could Y" type statements. Scottie's doing enough. We have a roster which is RIDDLED with deficiencies, and trying to land everything on him isn't an appropriate move.

Back to playmaking, I think we all know that Scottie isn't the guy to break down a set defense, and that his value comes more in transition and (as you note later in your post) as a connector. That is still relevant utility, even if he doesn't fill the primary on-ball playmaking role.

Ultimately, it comes down to this:

1) Scottie is producing around 20 ppg at reasonable efficiency (quality 2nd-option scoring)
2) Scottie is a very good rebounder and defender
3) Scottie has a lot of value as a playmaker, even if he isn't the guy to break down a set defense

That's all very valuable production coming from one guy. Right at the moment, what he's doing is more than enough to justify his contract. Asking more from him is asking for a player who we all know is the one we want but don't have, and is worth a lot more than what we pay Scottie, or what he can provide.