Wing Defender or POA?

[Anderson Hunt]

I think Adou is our new Vando, but better. A defensive lineup of, later in the season…

Vincent, Smart, Adou, LaRavia, Kleber should get some stops.

In what ways is Thiero better than Vanderbilt right now?

I'll let you answer, but honestly, I think you're either being hyperbolic or you simply mean that Thiero will be better one day.

[stan francisco]

I think Adou is our new Vando, but better. A defensive lineup of, later in the season…

Vincent, Smart, Adou, LaRavia, Kleber should get some stops.

In what ways is Thiero better than Vanderbilt right now?

I'll let you answer, but honestly, I think you're either being hyperbolic or you simply mean that Thiero will be better one day.

I don’t think he’s there yet, correct. But I really do think we have a gem here, the kind who will even contribute in his first year. I expect it soon.

I would not be surprised if he takes away most of Vando’s minutes pre deadline. I’m a Vando fan, especially versus GSW snd DEN when he’s a pest for Curry and Murray.

But Adou’s focus and head for the game is and will be on an elite level. Vando’s, not as much. Just hoping Adou gets into the NBA groove really soon so we can see him getting some minutes.

[dAdo dA dEvil]

I think Adou is our new Vando, but better. A defensive lineup of, later in the season…

Vincent, Smart, Adou, LaRavia, Kleber should get some stops.

In what ways is Thiero better than Vanderbilt right now?

I'll let you answer, but honestly, I think you're either being hyperbolic or you simply mean that Thiero will be better one day.

I don’t think he’s there yet, correct. But I really do think we have a gem here, the kind who will even contribute in his first year. I expect it soon.

I would not be surprised if he takes away most of Vando’s minutes pre deadline. I’m a Vando fan, especially versus GSW snd DEN when he’s a pest for Curry and Murray.

But Adou’s focus and head for the game is and will be on an elite level. Vando’s, not as much. Just hoping Adou gets into the NBA groove really soon so we can see him getting some minutes.

Vando doesn't have minutes anymore.
He is mostly DNP these past few games.
Peace.

[LeGoat23]

Vando isn't an elite wing defender. He's mid/poor at 1v1 POA, and constantly makes mental mistakes(overhelp/missing rotations) that compromise the team's defensive scheme. For a guy with negative offensive impact, you just can't have that on the floor.

He's an elite passing lanes interrupter & rebounder. That's it. Too small a skill set to deserve any discussion.

It's difficult to argue defense, but although I agree with your assessment that he's elite playing passing lanes and rebounding, I disagree with you suggesting that he's "mid" as a point of attack defender and one on one defender.

Before I go on, I must concede that because Vanderbilt doesn't get many minutes, I can't really argue against any notion that Vanderbilt doesn't defend like he used to two years ago. I frankly don't see him enough of late to properly assess him as a defender after his foot surgeries, so if you're making the argument that he doesn't defend one on one or at the point of attack like he used to, I can't argue against it. I just don't have enough film/observation to argue against that idea.

To me, he seems healthy. If he defends like he did two years ago, he absolutely is a well above-average POA defender.

What's my proof? My eyes. He has fantastic lateral quickness, anticipation, speed, and effort.

My eyes tell me one thing, then the opinions of innumerable scouting reports all tell me the same thing.

The reality is that when he played under a coach (Ham) who valued hustle guys and got opportunities to prove his defensive impact, Vanderbilt did just that, but under a coach who doesn't value scrappiness and doesn't scheme to accentuate Vanderbilt's gifts (namely one on one defense instead of switch-heavy), Vanderbilt doesn't look as good.

Maybe you see him getting into the games too exuberant, too eager to make plays, so he commits too many fouls. I see that too in his limited minutes, but that can be cleaned up with a defined role and expectation.

Vanderbilt needs to be nurtured. He needs to be given an opportunity to prove himself defensively and offensively.

When given an opportunity, 20 minutes a game as part of a defined role, he's shown thus far in his career that he's a well above average defender who has tremendously impacted the game with his defensive pedigree and hustle.

Cardiobilt needs to be in China if he needs to be nurtured & micro managed on a 12m/yr deal!

NBA is not for 8 year old vets to be taught basic rotations defensive coverages over and over, specially when that's the end where your entire value is supposed to lie. He's just not an overall positive impact player at this level.

Some of his stats from BBI -
Perimeter Isolation Defense - B-
Ball Screen Navigation - C-
Off Ball Chaser - C
Pick Pocket Rating - C
Passing Lane Defense - B
3PT Contests Per 75 Possessions - F
Matchup Adjusted Defensive Grade - C+

Not elite at a single thing.. lol. I can bet the Passing Lane D grade used to be better and probably hit this year because of the small sample, but his Perimeter Iso is also way better than I remember seeing in the past.

Not a big fan of JJ, I am happy with his ability to outrightly reject trash unlike Ham.

[LeGoat23]

I think Adou is our new Vando, but better. A defensive lineup of, later in the season…

Vincent, Smart, Adou, LaRavia, Kleber should get some stops.

In what ways is Thiero better than Vanderbilt right now?

I'll let you answer, but honestly, I think you're either being hyperbolic or you simply mean that Thiero will be better one day.

Tiny samples with Thiero, so this isn't a real conversation yet. But fwiw, Thiero graded with the best frequency & efficiency on his floaters in SEC. That's a real high difficulty offensive skill set that shows some real offensive prowess.

He also averaged 15 ppg in his final season for the Razors. You can send Vando to the SEC now, and he ain't averaging 15.. lol

Basically saying that he isn't an endless black hole on offense, which just automatically makes his floor much higher than any version of Vando, other than the odd 4 stls and 9 rebounds game that he can get in February, when nobody cares.

You just can't be that horrible at one end of the floor.

[Anderson Hunt]

Vando isn't an elite wing defender. He's mid/poor at 1v1 POA, and constantly makes mental mistakes(overhelp/missing rotations) that compromise the team's defensive scheme. For a guy with negative offensive impact, you just can't have that on the floor.

He's an elite passing lanes interrupter & rebounder. That's it. Too small a skill set to deserve any discussion.

It's difficult to argue defense, but although I agree with your assessment that he's elite playing passing lanes and rebounding, I disagree with you suggesting that he's "mid" as a point of attack defender and one on one defender.

Before I go on, I must concede that because Vanderbilt doesn't get many minutes, I can't really argue against any notion that Vanderbilt doesn't defend like he used to two years ago. I frankly don't see him enough of late to properly assess him as a defender after his foot surgeries, so if you're making the argument that he doesn't defend one on one or at the point of attack like he used to, I can't argue against it. I just don't have enough film/observation to argue against that idea.

To me, he seems healthy. If he defends like he did two years ago, he absolutely is a well above-average POA defender.

What's my proof? My eyes. He has fantastic lateral quickness, anticipation, speed, and effort.

My eyes tell me one thing, then the opinions of innumerable scouting reports all tell me the same thing.

The reality is that when he played under a coach (Ham) who valued hustle guys and got opportunities to prove his defensive impact, Vanderbilt did just that, but under a coach who doesn't value scrappiness and doesn't scheme to accentuate Vanderbilt's gifts (namely one on one defense instead of switch-heavy), Vanderbilt doesn't look as good.

Maybe you see him getting into the games too exuberant, too eager to make plays, so he commits too many fouls. I see that too in his limited minutes, but that can be cleaned up with a defined role and expectation.

Vanderbilt needs to be nurtured. He needs to be given an opportunity to prove himself defensively and offensively.

When given an opportunity, 20 minutes a game as part of a defined role, he's shown thus far in his career that he's a well above average defender who has tremendously impacted the game with his defensive pedigree and hustle.

Cardiobilt needs to be in China if he needs to be nurtured & micro managed on a 12m/yr deal!

NBA is not for 8 year old vets to be taught basic rotations defensive coverages over and over, specially when that's the end where your entire value is supposed to lie. He's just not an overall positive impact player at this level.

Some of his stats from BBI -
Perimeter Isolation Defense - B-
Ball Screen Navigation - C-
Off Ball Chaser - C
Pick Pocket Rating - C
Passing Lane Defense - B
3PT Contests Per 75 Possessions - F
Matchup Adjusted Defensive Grade - C+

Not elite at a single thing.. lol. I can bet the Passing Lane D grade used to be better and probably hit this year because of the small sample, but his Perimeter Iso is also way better than I remember seeing in the past.

Not a big fan of JJ, I am happy with his ability to outrightly reject trash unlike Ham.

Those stats are very, very interesting, but you have to contextualize them.

I'd be interested to see those same stats for each year of his career, especially the year he started on the Lakers and was given a big role.

It'll be those numbers and watching him play that'll tell the real story about his defense.

As of now though, when he's playing sporadic minutes under a coach that considers him an afterthought, you can't take those stats to the bank. Again, stats must be contextualized.

I respect your strong take though. You're essentially calling Vanderbilt an average defender, right? It seems that that is your stance, and it's a stance I disagree with.

My stance: Vanderbilt is an above-average defensive player with clear potential to be elite.

This is where we differ. For what it's worth, I think the world would agree with me, but again I respect you seeing things with your own eyes and not following popular opinion.

[LeGoat23]

Those stats are very, very interesting, but you have to contextualize them.

I'd be interested to see those same stats for each year of his career, especially the year he started on the Lakers and was given a big role.

It'll be those numbers and watching him play that'll tell the real story about his defense.

As of now though, when he's playing sporadic minutes under a coach that considers him an afterthought, you can't take those stats to the bank. Again, stats must be contextualized.

I respect your strong take though. You're essentially calling Vanderbilt an average defender, right? It seems that that is your stance, and it's a stance I disagree with.

My stance: Vanderbilt is an above-average defensive player with clear potential to be elite.

This is where we differ. For what it's worth, I think the world would agree with me, but again I respect you seeing things with your own eyes and not following popular opinion.

I don't sub BBI anymore. Had to ask a friend. But I can promise you it's been very similar for his entire time here. His switching has been D- in the past, but he's worked on it since.

I'll clarify my stance on Vando - I think he's an above average defender. Just not anywhere close to elite as some people like to propose without data. I am dead certain there's not a single data point that will prove me wrong. ZERO All Defense votes in his career. I think he gets too much love because he's kinda emblematic of the escape from Westbrook hell.. lol

Above average anything with a negative on the other side isn't good enough to survive in this league, so I look at him as a salary dump.

And, I'm not interested in the potential of a 8 year vet on a 48m deal. Theiro has my patience and appreciation for potential. Vando's window passed years ago.

[Anderson Hunt]

Those stats are very, very interesting, but you have to contextualize them.

I'd be interested to see those same stats for each year of his career, especially the year he started on the Lakers and was given a big role.

It'll be those numbers and watching him play that'll tell the real story about his defense.

As of now though, when he's playing sporadic minutes under a coach that considers him an afterthought, you can't take those stats to the bank. Again, stats must be contextualized.

I respect your strong take though. You're essentially calling Vanderbilt an average defender, right? It seems that that is your stance, and it's a stance I disagree with.

My stance: Vanderbilt is an above-average defensive player with clear potential to be elite.

This is where we differ. For what it's worth, I think the world would agree with me, but again I respect you seeing things with your own eyes and not following popular opinion.

I don't sub BBI anymore. Had to ask a friend. But I can promise you it's been very similar for his entire time here. His switching has been D- in the past, but he's worked on it since.

I'll clarify my stance on Vando - I think he's an above average defender. Just not anywhere close to elite as some people like to propose without data. I am dead certain there's not a single data point that will prove me wrong. ZERO All Defense votes in his career. I think he gets too much love because he's kinda emblematic of the escape from Westbrook hell.. lol

Above average anything with a negative on the other side isn't good enough to survive in this league, so I look at him as a salary dump.

And, I'm not interested in the potential of a 8 year vet on a 48m deal. Theiro has my patience and appreciation for potential. Vando's window passed years ago.

If you believe Vanderbilt to be an above average defensive player, then we agree about his capabilities.

Where we disagree is whether he should be playing. This team needs speed and defense and you have a fast, disruptive 6'9 switchy, energetic guy on the roster who is above average defensively. It's ridiculous to suggest that he shouldn't play. They need him and his particular set of skills (Liam Neesan voice).

[Anderson Hunt]

Chris Manon Defensive Scouting Report (via Maxwell Baumbach):

"Chris Manon is one of the best defensive playmakers in college hoops. Despite carrying a 26.6 usage rate, Manon was still a high-energy, active defender. He posted a 5.5 STL%, 2.8 BLK%, and 4.1 DBPM, which are elite indicators for a guard prospect. We’ll start on the ball before we get deeper into that, though. Manon does good work at the point of attack. He’s listed at 215 pounds, meaning that he’ll enter the professional ranks with the size of an NBA wing. At the collegiate level, that allows him to throw his body on opponents and drive them backward. He has good footwork defensively, and he consistently utilizes that skill to cut off driving angles. He’s already a multi-positional defender, and his tools make it so that he should be able to carry that over to the pros.

The real sell, though, is how Manon induces chaos off the ball. He’s an absolute terror in passing lanes. Manon is a willing gambler who processes the game quickly and has the north-south burst to intercept looping passes on the perimeter. He has lightning-fast hands, enabling him to swipe the ball with well-timed digs and swipes. His nose for the rim stands out—he’s always willing to help at the basket and fly for a big rejection. Manon’s motor runs hot in transition, where his physical tools and keen instincts allow him to outmaneuver opponents and take away possessions. When he’s on the court, the opposing offense has to account for him at all times. If they don’t, he will make them pay."

[LeGoat23]

If you believe Vanderbilt to be an above average defensive player, then we agree about his capabilities.

Where we disagree is whether he should be playing. This team needs speed and defense and you have a fast, disruptive 6'9 switchy, energetic guy on the roster who is above average defensively. It's ridiculous to suggest that he shouldn't play. They need him and his particular set of skills (Liam Neesan voice).

Vando is not switchy. His switching grades(D- for 2022-24) and eyetest technique are downright horrible. He's a horrible POA & post defender with poor technique(fouling/footwork) & low core strength.

Besides at his position the defensive value is just not as high as it might be for an above average / elite big post help defender. Perimeter players can so easily be game planned out of the offensive scheme by the opponent. If he were even a mediocre post defender with 2-3 more inches and 30-40 extra pounds, that would make him immensely more valuable.

You better be Matisse AC/Dort/Thybulle/Thompson Bros/Toumani Camara level elite as a perimeter defender to command a spot on an NBA primary rotation. Vando isn't remotely close.

I don't value him as a player & ngl, the 48m contract makes his very presence on this roster so insanely toxic to winning for me.

[Anderson Hunt]

Watch on YouTube

[LeGoat23]

Watch on YouTube

Aged poorly.. lol

[Anderson Hunt]

Aged poorly.. lol

You have a ton of vitriol for an above-average defender.

[stan francisco]

Watch on YouTube

I love Vando’s defense and we need it badly. But it means playing four on five on offense, and JJ won’t do it. Kind of like the D Lo problem but opposite side of the court.

[Anderson Hunt]

Watch on YouTube

I love Vando’s defense and we need it badly. But it means playing four on five on offense, and JJ won’t do it. Kind of like the D Lo problem but opposite side of the court.

It is preposterous for any of us to comment on the defense when a good, versatile defender is growing weeds on the bench.

It sounds like a coaching issue. Reddick is too dogmatic and inflexible.

[LeGoat23]

Aged poorly.. lol

You have a ton of vitriol for an above-average defender.

I'm just tired of coaches falling for his cardio

[Anderson Hunt]

Aged poorly.. lol

You have a ton of vitriol for an above-average defender.

I'm just tired of coaches falling for his cardio

According to your own words, Vanderbilt is an above-average defender on a team with below-average defenders up and down the lineup.

Yet, you're mad at him and his cardio/effort. Why? Because while you position yourself as a logical man presenting proof and statistics, you simultaneously present yourself as irrational, dogmatic, and short-sighted.

If your team is horrible on defense, and you have access to an above-average defender, you use him. Period.

[stan francisco]

Watch on YouTube

I love Vando’s defense and we need it badly. But it means playing four on five on offense, and JJ won’t do it. Kind of like the D Lo problem but opposite side of the court.

It is preposterous for any of us to comment on the defense when a good, versatile defender is growing weeds on the bench.

Agreed, he’s truly our best defender. He’s truly a one-way player, though, which makes it 4 on 5 on offense.

I want to see what an all defensive line-up could do for a few minutes here and there. A shut-down unit swat team.

The next time the starters stink it up on defense, JJ should yank them early, do a full hockey change to fix the defense.

PG defender Vando/Smart
SG defender Smart/Vando
SF defender Thiero/LaRavia
PF defender LaRavia/Hachimura
C defender Kleber/Ayton

They could get some stops and would ably run the break, show the starters what’s up with defensive intensity.

I still want Smart to start, would play Rui off the bench. Our current starters are -10 in efficiency rating because of leaky defense.

Dyson Daniels would be a perfect defender next to Luka.

[Anderson Hunt]

I love Vando’s defense and we need it badly. But it means playing four on five on offense, and JJ won’t do it. Kind of like the D Lo problem but opposite side of the court.

It is preposterous for any of us to comment on the defense when a good, versatile defender is growing weeds on the bench.

Agreed, he’s truly our best defender. He’s truly a one-way player, though, which makes it 4 on 5 on offense.

I want to see what an all defensive line-up could do for a few minutes here and there. A shut-down unit swat team.

The next time the starters stink it up on defense, JJ should yank them early, do a full hockey change to fix the defense.

PG defender Vando/Smart
SG defender Smart/Vando
SF defender Thiero/LaRavia
PF defender LaRavia/Hachimura
C defender Kleber/Ayton

They could get some stops and would ably run the break, show the starters what’s up with defensive intensity.

I still want Smart to start, would play Rui off the bench. Our current starters are -10 in efficiency rating because of leaky defense.

Dyson Daniels would be a perfect defender next to Luka.

We're thinking alike on every level. If the Hawks hadn't have resigned him, I would've given Dyson Daniels a blank check this summer in free agency. I'm serious.

Also, without reading this, I just posted somewhere else that Vanderbilt needs to guard PGs at the point of attack and Smart needs to guard the other guard.

Unfortunately, none of this will ever happen because Reddick, seemingly can't (or won't) coach lineups with only three shooters.