Since Barrett’s injury Raptors offensive rating has plummeted to last in the league

[tsherkin]

To be honest, he has a shot to be the best Knicks' lotto pick since Patrick Ewing. Porzingis is ahead of him due to his fake contribution to Boston's recent title, and then Gallo. He got hated on by Knicks fans the same way that Canadian 'fans' try and distance themselves from him. It's because he was overhyped when he became the 'most decorated prospect since LeBron,' and he obviously failed to live up to those expectations. To be better than Porzingis and Gallo, he needs to stay healthy and continue to improve defensively. He also needs to sign a reasonable next contract that allows him to be on a winning team.

Don't you go erasing Jordan Hill, Mike Sweeney and Channing Frye like that!

xD

[Basketball_Jones]

This is RJ's last year as a raptor

If they still suck once he’s back and we’re relatively healthy, yeah we might have to pull the plug on this. Lots of pressure on Darko this season. He’s gone too if they don’t turn it around I think.

[AkelaLoneWolf]

The absence of RJ has been felt for sure, but to me RJ's importance to the team is becoming extremely overrated by the fanbase just because he's the one who's been out.

If any of the other 4 starters were out for a period of time like RJ is, IMO every single one of their absences would be felt more than RJ.

That has been the tone of the latter half of the discussion. RJ's missing and that's a problem, but Darko is letting BI shoot too much and isolate too frequently. We don't have consistent, quality production from the bench, which is exacerbated when we have to move one of those guys into a starting position. We struggle on the boards. We don't have a backup center. Things work for us when we're healthy, but the roster has a lot of holes and we're starting to face better competition, and so those holes are showing through.

It is what it is. We aren't a top-end team, regardless of our early success, so this is just part and parcel of our season. We'll feel the ebb and flow pretty strongly all year because we're around a .500 team overall when you factor in health. A little better, hopefully. That's how such seasons go.

When we won 48 games in the 2022 season, we still had losing streaks. We had four different losing streaks of 3 games that year. In 2023, when we won 41 games, we had four different losing streaks of 3+ games, one of which was 6 games long.

We just need to be more patient as a fanbase, and have a clearer idea of what this team is and where it is going, you know? A bunch of folks got excited with the early win streak, but we were going to have health issues, we always had depth issues, we always had some structural weaknesses, etc, etc.

a very sensible perspective.
this was never going to be a championship season. it was an 'evaluation' season. we get to see how the pieces fit together and which players need to stay and which need to leave. and we are starting to get a good idea of that esp the bench.

[Kingsway_fan]

This is RJ's last year as a raptor

If they still suck once he’s back and we’re relatively healthy, yeah we might have to pull the plug on this. Lots of pressure on Darko this season. He’s gone too if they don’t turn it around I think.

13-5 with, 3-6 without. Yeah, i would say his value is clear to the team, management --- and yes, his detractors.

If he can come back healthy, soon, however, there is lots of time left in the season to right the ship. YAk was also playing his best ball when we fielded all the starters ... a win-win. Balanced scoring and balanced threats.

Those who complained that he didn't complement the other starters have, for the most part, been silenced. He takes pressure off of IQ and Ingram and Barnes, and everyone benefits from better looks and easier baskets. We had a top 3 field goal percentage shooting team before his injury. The offense looked good! We don't have quality subs who can step up and do what he does.

I was always a fan of his game and wanted him re signed. I don't want to see a repeat of Norm Powell --- players who love to play here and can contribute.

[Indeed]

This is RJ's last year as a raptor

If they still suck once he’s back and we’re relatively healthy, yeah we might have to pull the plug on this. Lots of pressure on Darko this season. He’s gone too if they don’t turn it around I think.

13-5 with, 3-6 without. Yeah, i would say his value is clear to the team, management --- and yes, his detractors.

If he can come back healthy, soon, however, there is lots of time left in the season to right the ship. YAk was also playing his best ball when we fielded all the starters ... a win-win. Balanced scoring and balanced threats.

Those who complained that he didn't complement the other starters have, for the most part, been silenced. He takes pressure off of IQ and Ingram and Barnes, and everyone benefits from better looks and easier baskets. We had a top 3 field goal percentage shooting team before his injury. The offense looked good! We don't have quality subs who can step up and do what he does.

I was always a fan of his game and wanted him re signed. I don't want to see a repeat of Norm Powell --- players who love to play here and can contribute.

You don't expect your subs (below MLE) to step up, you expect your starters to step up.
The problem isn't our young players, the problem is the players we paid, we have 3 top 60 paid players without Barrett.

[VanWest82]

I think it's worth clarifying some of the other issues contributing to the losing streak beyond RJ while acknowledging RJ's loss impacts a lot of areas (i.e. he's the glue that holds offense together in many line ups). For starters, we played 7 games in 11 days. This is BY FAR the biggest reason we went 1-6. But digging deeper...

Median league ORTG: 114.4
Raps ORTG last 7: 108.6
Rapts DRTG last 7: 119.8

So there are problems on both sides of the ball. Here are line ups > 10mins last 7:



Here are ind stats last 7:



So it's the bench guys that aren't producing, but often the starters who are falling behind. Some line ups are reallying struggling on offense, particularly with Shead as the lead guard. Some line ups (sans Poeltl) are getting destroyed on the glass. Every big min line up is getting crushed defensively. The only consistent positive plus/minus line ups don't have BI or JKW (though sample size is way too small to conclude much from that).

I said before the season started that we'd be really good on offense health permitting but that our defense would be a problem some nights. It's not surprising that our D fell off so badly during such a condensed part of the schedule.

[tsherkin]

I think it's worth clarifying some of the other issues contributing to the losing streak beyond RJ while acknowledging RJ's loss impacts a lot of areas (i.e. he's the glue that holds offense together in many line ups). For starters, we played 7 games in 11 days. This is BY FAR the biggest reason we went 1-6. But digging deeper...

Median league ORTG: 114.4
Raps ORTG last 7: 108.6
Rapts DRTG last 7: 119.8
...
I said before the season started that we'd be really good on offense health permitting but that our defense would be a problem some nights. It's not surprising that our D fell off so badly during such a condensed part of the schedule.

Solid post!

I went to look at our opponent quality over that time and was re-saddened by how many very bad teams we've played in this stretch. And reminded of the pair of losses Charlotte handed us, which was a big ooof. But the Lakers and Knicks, at least, are very good teams, and Boston's 15-10. So...

Between that, the condensed schedule, Shead shooting 29% FG (and 23% from 3), BI rocking a 43.1% TS over the first 5 games, Quick missing the last game, Poeltl missing 2 games and playing less than 26.5 minutes in all but one of them (and some of his play in the last couple games...), Scottie's shooting in the second Charlotte and New York games, us losing hasn't been super mysterious.

And oh yes. Over that same stretch? Dick's giving us 4.7 ppg on 40.6 / 30.8 / 75/0. Ja'Kobe's giving us 6.7 ppg on 38.1 / 34.6 / 66.7. Ochai, who has only played in 5 of the 7 games, has given us 4.8 ppg on 40.0 / 20.0 / 1.00. Mamu started one of the games, and has overall given us 8.6 ppg on 42.6 / 23.8 / 69.2 in that stretch.

So our bench production has been a disaster, for sure.

And all that is on top of Barrett's absence. Some of it is exacerbated by RJ not being there, but there's been a bunch of stuff. Over-isolating BI, a bunch of injuries, the schedule, missing a big scoring threat and basically all of our rim pressure, all of it, right? It's been a confluence of many different things going on. There's a lot to be said about what RJ was bringing as an off-ball threat, as a cutter, in terms of rim pressure, an efficient 19 ppg and the passing he was giving us (and encouraging from others) and all that, but there's been more than just that.

Still. His return (and return to form) would be a pretty big boon, especially on nights when our D is struggling, because right now we just don't seem to have the ability to catch back up.

[Tor_Raps]

All our injury to RJ highlights is that our entire bench is mainly filled with guys who just arent that good right now. This is what happens when you tank and force feed minutes to guys who have no business playing them. It distorts your view that guys like Walter/Dick are ready to be good contributors in the NBA.

[Indeed]

All our injury to RJ highlights is that our entire bench is mainly filled with guys who just arent that good right now. This is what happens when you tank and force feed minutes to guys who have no business playing them. It distorts your view that guys like Walter/Dick are ready to be good contributors in the NBA.

Again, stepping up should be those making more than the MLE.
The expectation is just silly when we have 3 top 60 paid players, yet, their expectation is just average, but our below MLE players are expected to perform five times they are paid.

[LoveMyRaps]

Read on Twitter

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More losses on the way

[ConSarnit]

All our injury to RJ highlights is that our entire bench is mainly filled with guys who just arent that good right now. This is what happens when you tank and force feed minutes to guys who have no business playing them. It distorts your view that guys like Walter/Dick are ready to be good contributors in the NBA.

Again, stepping up should be those making more than the MLE.
The expectation is just silly when we have 3 top 60 paid players, yet, their expectation is just average, but our below MLE players are expected to perform five times they are paid.

I don’t agree with this at all. Dick, Agbaji and Walter are all former 1st picks. They are making sub-MLE money but that’s because they are still on rookie deals. Dick and Agbaji are 3rd/4th year players. These guys should be providing something.

We aren’t asking them to replace RJ but these guys have played like G-league players since RJ has been out. I don’t know why you are letting them off the hook.

We have 3 non-rookie 1st round picks giving us nothing. That’s on them.

I’ll give some slack to Shead (his scoring game sucks but he at least defends and can create some for others). I was a Mamu skeptic from the beginning and there’s a reason he was available for the min. The Dick/Agbaji/Walter trio are all single skillset guys who aren’t even that great at their single skillset.

[Westside Gunn]

RJ is still out fffuhhh

[Indeed]

All our injury to RJ highlights is that our entire bench is mainly filled with guys who just arent that good right now. This is what happens when you tank and force feed minutes to guys who have no business playing them. It distorts your view that guys like Walter/Dick are ready to be good contributors in the NBA.

Again, stepping up should be those making more than the MLE.
The expectation is just silly when we have 3 top 60 paid players, yet, their expectation is just average, but our below MLE players are expected to perform five times they are paid.

I don’t agree with this at all. Dick, Agbaji and Walter are all former 1st picks. They are making sub-MLE money but that’s because they are still on rookie deals. Dick and Agbaji are 3rd/4th year players. These guys should be providing something.

We aren’t asking them to replace RJ but these guys have played like G-league players since RJ has been out. I don’t know why you are letting them off the hook.

We have 3 non-rookie 1st round picks giving us nothing. That’s on them.

I’ll give some slack to Shead (his scoring game sucks but he at least defends and can create some for others). I was a Mamu skeptic from the beginning and there’s a reason he was available for the min. The Dick/Agbaji/Walter trio are all single skillset guys who aren’t even that great at their single skillset.

I don't understand why 1st round picks are expected to carry the offensive load.

Walter and Agbaji are projected to be 3&D, and Walter shooting 50% on two of the last five games, and shooting 40% over the season, so I am unsure what other expectation for a role player like him should be.

As for top 60 paid players, either they are very good on the defensive end who can cover others (eg. Gobert), or they are expected to carry the offense.

[whitehops]

All our injury to RJ highlights is that our entire bench is mainly filled with guys who just arent that good right now. This is what happens when you tank and force feed minutes to guys who have no business playing them. It distorts your view that guys like Walter/Dick are ready to be good contributors in the NBA.

Again, stepping up should be those making more than the MLE.
The expectation is just silly when we have 3 top 60 paid players, yet, their expectation is just average, but our below MLE players are expected to perform five times they are paid.

I don’t agree with this at all. Dick, Agbaji and Walter are all former 1st picks. They are making sub-MLE money but that’s because they are still on rookie deals. Dick and Agbaji are 3rd/4th year players. These guys should be providing something.

We aren’t asking them to replace RJ but these guys have played like G-league players since RJ has been out. I don’t know why you are letting them off the hook.

We have 3 non-rookie 1st round picks giving us nothing. That’s on them.

I’ll give some slack to Shead (his scoring game sucks but he at least defends and can create some for others). I was a Mamu skeptic from the beginning and there’s a reason he was available for the min. The Dick/Agbaji/Walter trio are all single skillset guys who aren’t even that great at their single skillset.

to the bolded: if you acknowledge they are single skillset guys (with gradey and ochai completely not on-ball creators) how can you reasonably expect them to "step up" to replace RJ? i mean specifically what would you have them do extra when they have single skillsets?

[Tor_Raps]

Again, stepping up should be those making more than the MLE.
The expectation is just silly when we have 3 top 60 paid players, yet, their expectation is just average, but our below MLE players are expected to perform five times they are paid.

I don’t agree with this at all. Dick, Agbaji and Walter are all former 1st picks. They are making sub-MLE money but that’s because they are still on rookie deals. Dick and Agbaji are 3rd/4th year players. These guys should be providing something.

We aren’t asking them to replace RJ but these guys have played like G-league players since RJ has been out. I don’t know why you are letting them off the hook.

We have 3 non-rookie 1st round picks giving us nothing. That’s on them.

I’ll give some slack to Shead (his scoring game sucks but he at least defends and can create some for others). I was a Mamu skeptic from the beginning and there’s a reason he was available for the min. The Dick/Agbaji/Walter trio are all single skillset guys who aren’t even that great at their single skillset.

to the bolded: if you acknowledge they are single skillset guys (with gradey and ochai completely not on-ball creators) how can you reasonably expect them to "step up" to replace RJ? i mean specifically what would you have them do extra when they have single skillsets?

What is Gradey's single skillset? Dude cant even shoot at a league average clip, hes useless in every facet lol.

These were the picks the raptors got during their tanking seasons so youd hope youd get some help from these guys. There are 2 guys in the G League who seem like theyd be better than them right now.

[ConSarnit]

Again, stepping up should be those making more than the MLE.
The expectation is just silly when we have 3 top 60 paid players, yet, their expectation is just average, but our below MLE players are expected to perform five times they are paid.

I don’t agree with this at all. Dick, Agbaji and Walter are all former 1st picks. They are making sub-MLE money but that’s because they are still on rookie deals. Dick and Agbaji are 3rd/4th year players. These guys should be providing something.

We aren’t asking them to replace RJ but these guys have played like G-league players since RJ has been out. I don’t know why you are letting them off the hook.

We have 3 non-rookie 1st round picks giving us nothing. That’s on them.

I’ll give some slack to Shead (his scoring game sucks but he at least defends and can create some for others). I was a Mamu skeptic from the beginning and there’s a reason he was available for the min. The Dick/Agbaji/Walter trio are all single skillset guys who aren’t even that great at their single skillset.

to the bolded: if you acknowledge they are single skillset guys (with gradey and ochai completely not on-ball creators) how can you reasonably expect them to "step up" to replace RJ? i mean specifically what would you have them do extra when they have single skillsets?

These guys have shown more than they are currently contributing. Single skillset is a comment on what they are currently providing. Agbaji was a solid 3+D guard last year. He’s currently shooting 10% from 3. If Dick could repeat last year (or god forbid improve) he would be a competent backup SG. My expectations for these guys are not high but their current combined output is that of a G-leaguer. I’ll give Walter something of a pass as it’s only his 2nd year but 3rd/4th year players need to give you more.

The idea that these guys should get a pass because “they don’t make MLE money” is crazy. This is a clear opportunity for 1 of the young SG’s to show their worth and none of them have stepped up in any way and for whatever reason look worse than last year.

[ConSarnit]

I don’t agree with this at all. Dick, Agbaji and Walter are all former 1st picks. They are making sub-MLE money but that’s because they are still on rookie deals. Dick and Agbaji are 3rd/4th year players. These guys should be providing something.

We aren’t asking them to replace RJ but these guys have played like G-league players since RJ has been out. I don’t know why you are letting them off the hook.

We have 3 non-rookie 1st round picks giving us nothing. That’s on them.

I’ll give some slack to Shead (his scoring game sucks but he at least defends and can create some for others). I was a Mamu skeptic from the beginning and there’s a reason he was available for the min. The Dick/Agbaji/Walter trio are all single skillset guys who aren’t even that great at their single skillset.

to the bolded: if you acknowledge they are single skillset guys (with gradey and ochai completely not on-ball creators) how can you reasonably expect them to "step up" to replace RJ? i mean specifically what would you have them do extra when they have single skillsets?

What is Gradey's single skillset? Dude cant even shoot at a league average clip, hes useless in every facet lol.

These were the picks the raptors got during their tanking seasons so youd hope youd get some help from these guys. There are 2 guys in the G League who seem like theyd be better than them right now.

His numbers are down this year but Dick can shoot. He gets respected as a shooter and that provides value. The posters who rag on his shooting refuse to acknowledge that he is taking some of the most difficult shots on the team (movement 3pt shooting). He’s far from perfect but he can shoot and teams have to respect it. Chasing around a movement shooter (as compared to someone like Agbaji) helps the offense, even if the shots aren’t always falling. He has massive holes elsewhere in his game but his shooting provides positive value on the offensive end.

[Indeed]

I don’t agree with this at all. Dick, Agbaji and Walter are all former 1st picks. They are making sub-MLE money but that’s because they are still on rookie deals. Dick and Agbaji are 3rd/4th year players. These guys should be providing something.

We aren’t asking them to replace RJ but these guys have played like G-league players since RJ has been out. I don’t know why you are letting them off the hook.

We have 3 non-rookie 1st round picks giving us nothing. That’s on them.

I’ll give some slack to Shead (his scoring game sucks but he at least defends and can create some for others). I was a Mamu skeptic from the beginning and there’s a reason he was available for the min. The Dick/Agbaji/Walter trio are all single skillset guys who aren’t even that great at their single skillset.

to the bolded: if you acknowledge they are single skillset guys (with gradey and ochai completely not on-ball creators) how can you reasonably expect them to "step up" to replace RJ? i mean specifically what would you have them do extra when they have single skillsets?

These guys have shown more than they are currently contributing. Single skillset is a comment on what they are currently providing. Agbaji was a solid 3+D guard last year. He’s currently shooting 10% from 3. If Dick could repeat last year (or god forbid improve) he would be a competent backup SG. My expectations for these guys are not high but their current combined output is that of a G-leaguer. I’ll give Walter something of a pass as it’s only his 2nd year but 3rd/4th year players need to give you more.

The idea that these guys should get a pass because “they don’t make MLE money” is crazy. This is a clear opportunity for 1 of the young SG’s to show their worth and none of them have stepped up in any way and for whatever reason look worse than last year.

Raptors republic said it very well on this. Our problem is rim pressure, so you are not going to ask a shooter to do that. You solve a problem with the right tool.

Why do we have many shooters? Because we also have an issue with shooting, particularly at the PF position.

[ConSarnit]

Again, stepping up should be those making more than the MLE.
The expectation is just silly when we have 3 top 60 paid players, yet, their expectation is just average, but our below MLE players are expected to perform five times they are paid.

I don’t agree with this at all. Dick, Agbaji and Walter are all former 1st picks. They are making sub-MLE money but that’s because they are still on rookie deals. Dick and Agbaji are 3rd/4th year players. These guys should be providing something.

We aren’t asking them to replace RJ but these guys have played like G-league players since RJ has been out. I don’t know why you are letting them off the hook.

We have 3 non-rookie 1st round picks giving us nothing. That’s on them.

I’ll give some slack to Shead (his scoring game sucks but he at least defends and can create some for others). I was a Mamu skeptic from the beginning and there’s a reason he was available for the min. The Dick/Agbaji/Walter trio are all single skillset guys who aren’t even that great at their single skillset.

I don't understand why 1st round picks are expected to carry the offensive load.

Walter and Agbaji are projected to be 3&D, and Walter shooting 50% on two of the last five games, and shooting 40% over the season, so I am unsure what other expectation for a role player like him should be.

As for top 60 paid players, either they are very good on the defensive end who can cover others (eg. Gobert), or they are expected to carry the offense.

Per 48, our SG’s are currently providing around 14ppg on 45 TS% since RJ is out. You think that is acceptable output?

No one is asking them to carry the offensive load. We’re asking them to contribute in, at the very least, a way that isn’t the equivalent of playing a G-league player 48mpg.

[ConSarnit]

to the bolded: if you acknowledge they are single skillset guys (with gradey and ochai completely not on-ball creators) how can you reasonably expect them to "step up" to replace RJ? i mean specifically what would you have them do extra when they have single skillsets?

These guys have shown more than they are currently contributing. Single skillset is a comment on what they are currently providing. Agbaji was a solid 3+D guard last year. He’s currently shooting 10% from 3. If Dick could repeat last year (or god forbid improve) he would be a competent backup SG. My expectations for these guys are not high but their current combined output is that of a G-leaguer. I’ll give Walter something of a pass as it’s only his 2nd year but 3rd/4th year players need to give you more.

The idea that these guys should get a pass because “they don’t make MLE money” is crazy. This is a clear opportunity for 1 of the young SG’s to show their worth and none of them have stepped up in any way and for whatever reason look worse than last year.

Raptors republic said it very well on this. Our problem is rim pressure, so you are not going to ask a shooter to do that. You solve a problem with the right tool.

Why do we have many shooters? Because we also have an issue with shooting, particularly at the PF position.

I don’t know what you expect. This is an imperfectly built team. If we don’t have 100% health the whole thing falls apart. You’d hope someone could step up but no one has, regardless of their salary.

Has anyone watched Barnes/Ingram/IQ over the last few years any thought “yeah, these guys can fill the rim pressure gap”? If you did I don’t know what to tell you.