Decision making during our "rebuild" has been shockingly terrible. Review of timeline + path forward

[Clutch0z24]

Yeah how i look at it is.....You play the drafting game till you eventually win....Because actually winning can have such a big impact on your fortunes that its worth the risk.....If anything you are at least accumulating assets along the way that could be used in the right trades as well....Also what many of the great front offices have in common they trade a player that has value for future draft picks....So they control other teams picks as well....Tends to be a formula to use as well...

Just having a stockpile of good young assets that have "Potential" is good for your franchise....Thats how Lakers traded for AD when they got LeBron and one of the reasons the Spurs are one of the favorites to get Giannis if he asks out....

Just having high draft picks has value in itself....Thats why i think playing the draft for a little bit has very little risk vs the potential rewards it can garner you if you play it the right way....And yeah all draft classes are not equal....Some have very minimal talents some have franchise altering players....Thats why its also good to pick and choose which draft you play in...

The blueprint is there. You give yourself multiple bites at the apple by drafting high with your own picks and taking swings with picks acquire from trading away your previous core (what we should have done with Siakam/OG/FVV).

HOU missed on Green with the 2nd overall pick. Used the surplus 1sts to trade for Sengun in the same draft.

DET drafted Ivey with their own pick. Used their surplus picks to trade for Duren.

OKC drafted Chet (their own pick) and JDub (Clippers pick) in ‘22.

No one hits on every pick. But when you stockpile surplus picks you improve your odds of hitting. Where are HOU and DET if they don’t have those extras picks?

It’s what makes the last few years so frustrating. Missing the playoffs 3 straight years and drafting 13th, 19th and 9th. Terrible. No high draft picks. No surplus picks to take chances. Just bad management.

Those aren't viable blueprints. Detroit spent 10 years in the lottery. Mught have even been 15? So that hardly constitutes a "plan".

OKC is built on mod to late picks, second rounders, and undrafted players. Chet is the only rotation player who was drafted in the top 10 that won the chip last year.

Houston is the one where i'll concede provides a blueprint. But a whole bunch of other teams had the same approach and failed. So i wouldn't call it a successful blueprint because that plan fails way more than it succeeds. The big difference for Houston compared to the other tank teams was hiring Ime and signing fred.

We are NOT trading for a package the OKC got in Shai and all them picks because we do NOT have a player that has much value around the league atm.....Say what you want about PG now....But Paul George had star power value back in them OKC days....No one on this team has that much value that other teams will offer up that much...

Barnes could maybe get us some value if we were to trade him which maybe the last real option we have left...

If you are NOT a free agent destination or star players on the market are not demanding to be traded to your team, And you do NOT have the proper assets to make any impactfull trades (Our assets are horrible when you look at everything we have)...

You are left with one option left to stockpile the assets necessary and thats the draft....The Draft since the dawn of time has been the Raptors best friend....Its how you get in elite talent to franchises that Lack assets or lack destination desire.....I would understand your point if i looked on the roster and seen players with ton of value we could net back in trades but what i see is depreciating assets, as well as young players who have no real value at all...

[VanWest82]

Its not about seeding in legit prolly the worst Eastern Conference ever....Its not about our record of W/L ....If you actually believe this current team as is will be a good team in the playoffs you are lying to yourself....

We have so many glaring flaws its impossible to believe that our "Record of beating up on tanking teams or struggling teams" is something to brag about....

All that means is we chose to compete at an opportune time. Good bet.

Also, our contracts are structured such that we effectively have an out after next year when RJ and BI come up, so if it isn’t working we can just trade let them expire, trade Scottie and rebuild at that point.

Lol cool so you are saying we are actively wasting our times atm with trying to win with such a flawed group of players because yeah we may be able to beat up on tanking teams (sometimes) and other struggling teams....But when we ever faced an actual good team this season we have lost....In the play ins o playoffs whichever we make we are prolly a first round exit loser.....

No you are saying this. I am saying we are currently the 4th seed and would be hosting a playoff series if the season ended today despite missing two key starters for extended time. Also, you seem to be assuming facts that are not yet in evidence. We aren’t 12 game win streak good but we aren’t can’t beat a good team bad.

We needed a proper rebuild instead we are left with a half assed flawed core of players that don't even mesh well on the court together all that much....Sounds like a waste of time waiting for the inevitable at this point....

This kind of analysis is poor imo. I’ve criticized the Poeltl trade and some of the subsequent moves since many times, but the facts were that we did try to switch gears and rebuild and were a combination to too good and somewhat unlucky by falling back two years in a row in the lottery. At some point, it makes more sense to try to win for a bit, especially when your conference sucks and mid teams are routinely making the Finals. And like I said, we have a quick out in less than two years if it isn’t working. Maybe you like watching teams tank but lots of fans, myself included, appreciate watching young teams grow on a team that’s at least trying to win so guys actually get better and don’t become career losers a la Hinkie Sixers.

[Clutch0z24]

All that means is we chose to compete at an opportune time. Good bet.

Also, our contracts are structured such that we effectively have an out after next year when RJ and BI come up, so if it isn’t working we can just trade let them expire, trade Scottie and rebuild at that point.

Lol cool so you are saying we are actively wasting our times atm with trying to win with such a flawed group of players because yeah we may be able to beat up on tanking teams (sometimes) and other struggling teams....But when we ever faced an actual good team this season we have lost....In the play ins o playoffs whichever we make we are prolly a first round exit loser.....

No you are saying this. I am saying we are currently the 4th seed and would be hosting a playoff series if the season ended today despite missing two key starters for extended time. Also, you seem to be assuming facts that are not yet in evidence. We aren’t 12 game win streak good but we aren’t can’t beat a good team bad.

We needed a proper rebuild instead we are left with a half assed flawed core of players that don't even mesh well on the court together all that much....Sounds like a waste of time waiting for the inevitable at this point....

This kind of analysis is poor imo. I’ve criticized the Poeltl trade and some of the subsequent moves since many times, but the facts were that we did try to switch gears and rebuild and were a combination to too good and somewhat unlucky by falling back two years in a row in the lottery. At some point, it makes more sense to try to win for a bit, especially when your conference sucks and mid teams are routinely making the Finals. And like I said, we have a quick out in less than two years if it isn’t working. Maybe you like watching teams tank but lots of fans, myself included, appreciate watching young teams grow on a team that’s at least trying to win so guys actually get better and don’t become career losers a la Hinkie Sixers.

Lol no one likes to watch your teams lose....But the potential outcome at the end of it is worth it than watching a horrible on court product, flawed players in positions they should not be in, Bad fit of team construction, and an ultimate first round exit all for it to just be leading to the inevitable where you have to tank in 2 years anyways because you are not good enough....

Its just id much rather start that process NOW or actually i would have liked to start that process few years ago when we drafted Barnes and actually traded all our valuable players for more future draft picks/assets than what we got for them waiting way too long....If we started the process earlier or at least stuck with the process instead of doing it half assed like we are and have been doing by now we would have been in a 1000x better position...Asset wise and talent wise....If in 2 years we have to start the process over again was it really worth it in the long run? Have you ever heard of "Slow and steady wins the race" Thats how i look at it rather than trying to be a speed demon trying to take shortcuts and half ass everything into the ground...If we actually stuck to a strategy in 2 years from now instead of having to eventually tank and rebuild again maybe in 2 years we have a potential dynasty by hitting in 2 draft cycles with good picks....And our outlook is much more promising?...

[mdenny]

All that means is we chose to compete at an opportune time. Good bet.

Also, our contracts are structured such that we effectively have an out after next year when RJ and BI come up, so if it isn’t working we can just trade let them expire, trade Scottie and rebuild at that point.

Lol cool so you are saying we are actively wasting our times atm with trying to win with such a flawed group of players because yeah we may be able to beat up on tanking teams (sometimes) and other struggling teams....But when we ever faced an actual good team this season we have lost....In the play ins o playoffs whichever we make we are prolly a first round exit loser.....

No you are saying this. I am saying we are currently the 4th seed and would be hosting a playoff series if the season ended today despite missing two key starters for extended time. Also, you seem to be assuming facts that are not yet in evidence. We aren’t 12 game win streak good but we aren’t can’t beat a good team bad.

We needed a proper rebuild instead we are left with a half assed flawed core of players that don't even mesh well on the court together all that much....Sounds like a waste of time waiting for the inevitable at this point....

This kind of analysis is poor imo. I’ve criticized the Poeltl trade and some of the subsequent moves since many times, but the facts were that we did try to switch gears and rebuild and were a combination to too good and somewhat unlucky by falling back two years in a row in the lottery. At some point, it makes more sense to try to win for a bit, especially when your conference sucks and mid teams are routinely making the Finals. And like I said, we have a quick out in less than two years if it isn’t working. Maybe you like watching teams tank but lots of fans, myself included, appreciate watching young teams grow on a team that’s at least trying to win so guys actually get better and don’t become career losers a la Hinkie Sixers.

Yes we have a VERY quick out. Almost every team forced to revert to a rebuild doesn't have their picks. We do. So if the next big move doesn't work we can simplu trade our players for expirings and picks.....adding them to our own (which is most important).

How many teams currently trying to win own their own picks? Not very many. And we are one of them. So contrary to the claims here....we are perfectly situated for a reversion to a rebuild. Which should not be done in haste.

Bobby said it himself....we're making a big move this year. Let's see how that goes before we talk about rebuilding.

[Clutch0z24]

Lol cool so you are saying we are actively wasting our times atm with trying to win with such a flawed group of players because yeah we may be able to beat up on tanking teams (sometimes) and other struggling teams....But when we ever faced an actual good team this season we have lost....In the play ins o playoffs whichever we make we are prolly a first round exit loser.....

No you are saying this. I am saying we are currently the 4th seed and would be hosting a playoff series if the season ended today despite missing two key starters for extended time. Also, you seem to be assuming facts that are not yet in evidence. We aren’t 12 game win streak good but we aren’t can’t beat a good team bad.

We needed a proper rebuild instead we are left with a half assed flawed core of players that don't even mesh well on the court together all that much....Sounds like a waste of time waiting for the inevitable at this point....

This kind of analysis is poor imo. I’ve criticized the Poeltl trade and some of the subsequent moves since many times, but the facts were that we did try to switch gears and rebuild and were a combination to too good and somewhat unlucky by falling back two years in a row in the lottery. At some point, it makes more sense to try to win for a bit, especially when your conference sucks and mid teams are routinely making the Finals. And like I said, we have a quick out in less than two years if it isn’t working. Maybe you like watching teams tank but lots of fans, myself included, appreciate watching young teams grow on a team that’s at least trying to win so guys actually get better and don’t become career losers a la Hinkie Sixers.

Yes we have a VERY quick out. Almost every team forced to revert to a rebuild doesn't have their picks. We do. So if the next big move doesn't work we can simplu trade our players for expirings and picks.....adding them to our own (which is most important).

How many teams currently trying to win own their own picks? Not very many. And we are one of them. So contrary to the claims here....we are perfectly situated for a reversion to a rebuild. Which should not be done in haste.

Bobby said it himself....we're making a big move this year. Let's see how that goes before we talk about rebuilding.

We are still "Rebuilding" Lol we are not a finished product....Its just Bobbys way of rebuilding is not really working....And we can not trade our players for picks....Our players again do not hold that much value in fact we prolly have to give up picks to get off certain contracts....The only value we have on our roster around the league....Barnes/CMB/Draft picks....Everything else will not fetch you much in the open market....Even Ingram won't get you alot in todays climate at his current price tag....Which is why we got him on the cheap....

[greekman]

it's not easy to rebuild when you tank 3 consecutive years and end up with jakobe, gradey, cmb

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

it's not easy to rebuild when you tank 3 consecutive years and end up with jakobe, gradey, cmb

Or when you commit yourself financially by extending the guys you tanked with, so you can’t afford to extend those guys anyway.

[tsherkin]

So same stats AND he is being asked to do more defensively with Yak out/hurt.

He's taken a bit of a hit to his efficiency, though that is to be expected, for sure.

I would argue it should be your highest paid players and your top scoring options need to scale up their production. Role players stepping up is secondary to that. Ingram's done a bit more scoring without RJ, while Scottie and IQ haven't stepped up their production at all.

This is simplistic thinking, though, because it ignores the specific abilities of the players in question. There are lots of teams where that wasn't really the thing. Even on a 6-time title squad like the Bulls, you saw issues without MJ, right? Scottie was never a good enough scorer to get it done the way they did with Mike, and that's fine. You build your team around being healthy and having your guys, and hope to be able to survive long enough for your injured guys to make it back in time for the important games. That's the way it goes

Scottie is who he is as a scoring threat. You cannot squeeze blood from a stone, but he does so much overall that bitching about it is just a waste of energy.

Meantime, BI has scored MORE with RJ out, but at notably worse efficiency. That actually isn't helping us, and having his proportion of isolation possessions rising has actually materially worsened our offense. Quickley's having a shooting slump. That's what happens with a guy who doesn't have much besides transition and 3s. He's not a guy you look to for 20 ppg, and if you are looking for that, you're making a mistake.

But now IQ is being criticized for not being a good playmaker because we found out last season that Barnes was not gonna thrive as a primary playmaker.

IQ has his limitations. All the guys on our roster do. This is what happens when you don't have a superstar. The limitations of all your players become that much more exaggerated, particularly when you're missing one of your top scorers. Why people aren't grokking this is a huge mystery to me, because it's super obvious stuff.

We built this team based on a whole bunch of assumptions about Barnes. And then as barnes continues to fall short in all those expectations....the rest of the team gets criticized and Barnes floats on by.

Well, no. That's a bald lie. The shortcomings of every player on the team are ROUTINELY discussed, so you just flatly made up some BS with that sentence.

We're running out of things to "expect" from Barnes. But noone is gonna admit that they totally over-hyped this guy. They're just gonna set the bar lower and lower. Meanwhile....the team was built based on all the hype which turned out to be wrong.

This is all a weird extension out of anything that I said, because I was never a hype-man on the Barnes train at any point. So you're platforming, but using my post to do it was super weird.

We need the team to be healthy to succeed. We knew this. We have holes in our roster. We knew this. We have serious shortcomings and a very clear ceiling based on our present roster construction. We knew this. The team was generally projected to win between 39 and 44 games... which is about the sort of season we're having, though we're struggling now with a lengthy absence from our second leading scorer and singular source of consistent rim pressure. On any other team, this would be seen as a reason to struggle, but instead, we're bitching that our guys aren't good enough. Which is weird and, to be frank, fairly stupid. It'd be like Kobe going down on the three-peat Lakers and then LA fans complaining that they weren't contending. That's just dumb. Obviously we aren't a contender and our guys aren't at that level of talent, but the point stands: when you lose critical pieces of your team for long stretches, you lose more games. That's just basic understanding of the sport.

We aren't a high-ceiling team right now. That's just what things are for us with this roster. So whining and complaining about is just weird to me.

No one but HangTime thinks that Barnes is That Guy (TM). The rest of us are all well aware that he has his limitations, and that there are things he cannot do for us. He's a versatile guy. He's doing what he can for us as a scoring threat and a connecting passer/transition playmaker. He's a good defender and rebounder. He's got some positional versatility. But he needs the environment where we have RJ cutting and slashing and BI doing his thing and some spacing to find his maximum level of efficacy. That was quite literally the whole driving force behind our early offensive success. Now that has fallen apart and we are back to seeing Barnes in non-ideal situations, and people complaining about what we already knew: that he doesn't thrive in those situations because he isn't that type of player... and was never projected to be by any scout, ever. So it's a little puzzling that people are still banging this gong. We've known for YEARS what Scottie is offensively, and he proves it at every turn, but then we act like it's some surprise. And when we finally find the situation where he works well, and then that situation is taken away, we use that as a reason to bitch and complain about him, which is just odd and disingenuous.

Barnes isn't a franchise player. No one with the first hint of sense thinks that. He isn't an elite athlete, and his skills as a scoring threat are very contextual. He isn't an offensive anchor. We have SEEN what happens when we put him into a good position, and he can work well for us there. And he's a diverse contributor, which is great. But people need to stop evaluating him as if he's actually a Kawhi-level player underperforming, because that's just foolishness.

[PushDaRock]

I would argue it should be your highest paid players and your top scoring options need to scale up their production. Role players stepping up is secondary to that. Ingram's done a bit more scoring without RJ, while Scottie and IQ haven't stepped up their production at all.

This is simplistic thinking, though, because it ignores the specific abilities of the players in question. There are lots of teams where that wasn't really the thing. Even on a 6-time title squad like the Bulls, you saw issues without MJ, right? Scottie was never a good enough scorer to get it done the way they did with Mike, and that's fine. You build your team around being healthy and having your guys, and hope to be able to survive long enough for your injured guys to make it back in time for the important games. That's the way it goes

Scottie is who he is as a scoring threat. You cannot squeeze blood from a stone, but he does so much overall that bitching about it is just a waste of energy.

Meantime, BI has scored MORE with RJ out, but at notably worse efficiency. That actually isn't helping us, and having his proportion of isolation possessions rising has actually materially worsened our offense. Quickley's having a shooting slump. That's what happens with a guy who doesn't have much besides transition and 3s. He's not a guy you look to for 20 ppg, and if you are looking for that, you're making a mistake.

Pippen was 8th in the league in scoring in 93-94 without Jordan. Scottie is 40th right now. Pippen might not have been a great scorer but he still did a bit more when the team needed him to.

Having Scottie stay in this role that he's more comfortable in might be helping save his efficiency numbers but it certainly isn't helping this offense score the ball. If you're saying Scottie and IQ shouldn't be trying to score more and that Ingram stepping up his scoring isn't helping us, then what can we attempt to do instead or are we just screwed? We are dead last in ORTG without, there really isn't much getting worse than that.

[tsherkin]

Pippen was 8th in the league in scoring in 93-94 without Jordan. Scottie is 40th right now. Pippen might not have been a great scorer but he still did a bit more when the team needed him to.

Yes, it's not a direct analog. But the 94 Bulls were 14th in the 27-team league on offense in 94. They were 6th on D. They won more with that and how Armstrong and Grant stepped up than Scottie Pippen scoring 22 ppg on 103 TS+. He'd been a 21 ppg scorer in 1992 already, so it's not like he was doing a ton more as a scorer than he had the previous season (18.6 in 93). That was more about other guys stepping up. Like I said, Armstrong went from 12.3 ppg to 14.8 and Horace Grant went from 13.2 to 15.1. They also added Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Luc Longley and Bill Wennington, fleshing out their frontcourt and bench.

So when we're speaking of scorers stepping up, that isn't what happened with Pippen. They were materially worse on O, falling off precipitously, and they distributed their offense a lot more without Jordan.

Having Scottie stay in this role that he's more comfortable in might be helping save his efficiency numbers but it certainly isn't helping this offense score the ball. If you're saying Scottie and IQ shouldn't be trying to score more and that Ingram stepping up his scoring isn't helping us, then what can we attempt to do instead or are we just screwed? We are dead last in ORTG without, there really isn't much getting worse than that.

You're missing the point. We KNOW Scottie can't sustain quality scoring with increased responsibility. Asking him to do it is just stupid. At some point, you just have recognize that we don't have the tools to be a lot better when we're missing critical pieces on top of the extant flaws the roster already possesses. There isn't an infinite reservoir of ability to elevate play. That's not how it works.

Yeah, we can try. And we are. But it's not going to work. This is a known thing.

[PushDaRock]

Pippen was 8th in the league in scoring in 93-94 without Jordan. Scottie is 40th right now. Pippen might not have been a great scorer but he still did a bit more when the team needed him to.

Yes, it's not a direct analog. But the 94 Bulls were 14th in the 27-team league on offense in 94. They were 6th on D. They won more with that and how Armstrong and Grant stepped up than Scottie Pippen scoring 22 ppg on 103 TS+. He'd been a 21 ppg scorer in 1992 already, so it's not like he was doing a ton more as a scorer than he had the previous season (18.6 in 93). That was more about other guys stepping up. Like I said, Armstrong went from 12.3 ppg to 14.8 and Horace Grant went from 13.2 to 15.1. They also added Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Luc Longley and Bill Wennington, fleshing out their frontcourt and bench.

So when we're speaking of scorers stepping up, that isn't what happened with Pippen. They were materially worse on O, falling off precipitously, and they distributed their offense a lot more without Jordan.

Having Scottie stay in this role that he's more comfortable in might be helping save his efficiency numbers but it certainly isn't helping this offense score the ball. If you're saying Scottie and IQ shouldn't be trying to score more and that Ingram stepping up his scoring isn't helping us, then what can we attempt to do instead or are we just screwed? We are dead last in ORTG without, there really isn't much getting worse than that.

You're missing the point. We KNOW Scottie can't sustain quality scoring with increased responsibility. Asking him to do it is just stupid. At some point, you just have recognize that we don't have the tools to be a lot better when we're missing critical pieces on top of the extant flaws the roster already possesses. There isn't an infinite reservoir of ability to elevate play. That's not how it works.

Yeah, we can try. And we are. But it's not going to work. This is a known thing.

If you are saying Scottie can't handle more responsibility, then who should be handling more instead? We might be screwed regardless but you still need an optimal strategy, so what would be that?

I never said the offense wouldn't be worse without RJ, of course it will be. I am asking how do you make it suck less without him? We are talking about a drop in ORTG from 119.2 to 106.8. I am asking how do we not be the worst offense in the NBA without RJ? We still have Ingram, Scottie and IQ for all these games without RJ. Any team that has 3 of their top 4 scorers is not usually going to completely crap the bed offensively missing a key piece or 2. It shouldn't be the worst offense in the league at the very least.

[tsherkin]

If you are saying Scottie can't handle more responsibility, then who should be handling more instead? We might be screwed regardless but you still need an optimal strategy, so what would be that?

We don't have an optimal strategy. We are considerably worse without RJ. That isn't something we're going to get around. That's what happens when you lose a major piece, you don't just compensate and move on, you're going to be materially worse as a result. And we weren't an amazing team to begin with.

I never said the offense wouldn't be worse without RJ, of course it will be.

Yes, I know, you're not an idiot. I didn't mean to imply that, if that's what you took from it. My point was more that we have to accept, to some degree, that we will be considerably worse. And that because we already know Scottie can't handle escalating his self-creation or volume responsibilities without serious loss of efficacy, that we just have to deal with it and stop bitching that he isn't doing it.

I am asking how do you make it suck less without him? We are talking about a drop in ORTG from 119.2 to 106.8.

Have a frontcourt. Have a bench worth mentioning. Run some better sets for BI. Have Quick not in a shooting slump. There are a limited series of things which work for us when you're trying to replace all of your rim pressure and a guy who was scoring 19 ppg on 60% TS.

Any team that has 3 of their top 4 scorers is not usually going to completely crap the bed offensively missing a key piece or 2. It shouldn't be the worst offense in the league at the very least.

But they're all dependent upon one another. Scottie's a roughly league-average efficiency guy in the right environment, and a guy we know can't really do a ton of self-creation without precipitous fall-off in his efficiency. BI has been struggling. Quick has been struggling. When they play well, we look a little better, but we also have no frontcourt. We're weak on the offensive glass and don't use CMB. We don't have any slashers without RJ. We play slow. We don't have any guard play of consequence off the bench and we've moved what little bench scoring we had into the starting lineup without Yak.

We have a LOT of systemic problems right now. There isn't a good solution for us to be better. Or even really to suck a lot less. We have an exceptionally narrow margin of error with this team, so we're struggling a ton because we've completely screwed our offensive ecosystem. And our coach isn't brilliant, either. He's not the core of our problem, but he's also not helping.

And while we all sit here bitching about Barnes, Brandon Ingram has been 1.7% worse than league average efficiency, and has been a 54.5% TS player over the past 15 games (which is more like 3.7% worse than league average).

That's a MUCH larger problem than Scottie's performance.

[PushDaRock]

If you are saying Scottie can't handle more responsibility, then who should be handling more instead? We might be screwed regardless but you still need an optimal strategy, so what would be that?

We don't have an optimal strategy. We are considerably worse without RJ. That isn't something we're going to get around. That's what happens when you lose a major piece, you don't just compensate and move on, you're going to be materially worse as a result. And we weren't an amazing team to begin with.

I never said the offense wouldn't be worse without RJ, of course it will be.

Yes, I know, you're not an idiot. I didn't mean to imply that, if that's what you took from it. My point was more that we have to accept, to some degree, that we will be considerably worse. And that because we already know Scottie can't handle escalating his self-creation or volume responsibilities without serious loss of efficacy, that we just have to deal with it and stop bitching that he isn't doing it.

I am asking how do you make it suck less without him? We are talking about a drop in ORTG from 119.2 to 106.8.

Have a frontcourt. Have a bench worth mentioning. Run some better sets for BI. Have Quick not in a shooting slump. There are a limited series of things which work for us when you're trying to replace all of your rim pressure and a guy who was scoring 19 ppg on 60% TS.

Any team that has 3 of their top 4 scorers is not usually going to completely crap the bed offensively missing a key piece or 2. It shouldn't be the worst offense in the league at the very least.

But they're all dependent upon one another. Scottie's a roughly league-average efficiency guy in the right environment, and a guy we know can't really do a ton of self-creation without precipitous fall-off in his efficiency. BI has been struggling. Quick has been struggling. When they play well, we look a little better, but we also have no frontcourt. We're weak on the offensive glass and don't use CMB. We don't have any slashers without RJ. We play slow. We don't have any guard play of consequence off the bench and we've moved what little bench scoring we had into the starting lineup without Yak.

We have a LOT of systemic problems right now. There isn't a good solution for us to be better. Or even really to suck a lot less. We have an exceptionally narrow margin of error with this team, so we're struggling a ton because we've completely screwed our offensive ecosystem. And our coach isn't brilliant, either. He's not the core of our problem, but he's also not helping.

And while we all sit here bitching about Barnes, Brandon Ingram has been 1.7% worse than league average efficiency, and has been a 54.5% TS player over the past 15 games (which is more like 3.7% worse than league average).

That's a MUCH larger problem than Scottie's performance.

I have the same opinion as you on most if not all of this stuff. But, you still have to try and find a way to make things work out there even with limited means to get it done. Someone still has to try and score out there. I am certainly not suggesting that Scottie scaling up his scoring is saving us, it would likely be similar in how much of a disaster this offense has been but there's also not getting much worse when you're already at the bottom and I'd rather he at least "try" to do more out there if we are going to suck this bad anyways. I'm just not really seeing how protecting his limitations out there while forcing others even less capable than him to have to score more is helping us.

[tsherkin]

I have the same opinion as you on most if not all of this stuff. But, you still have to try and find a way to make things work out there even with limited means to get it done.

We are trying. It just doesn't work. And it won't magically start working, because we have too many limitations and too many roster gaps, is what I'm saying. And trying the same thing we already know doesn't work (running the ball more to Scottie) has a 0% chance of solving the problem, because we already know that doesn't work.

I'm just not really seeing how protecting his limitations out there while forcing others even less capable than him to have to score more is helping us.

Again, though, we have other, larger issues to address than Scottie. We already know he can't help us with this specific issue. He doesn't have that skill set, doesn't have the tools, nor the temperament. So we have to look at other avenues. And right now, they aren't working either.

We'll see what happens when BI and Quick rediscover their shot, and of course when RJ comes back. But this is who we are as a team. We are perpetually on thin ice because we can't suffer any loss of starters very well. When we have to shuffle our already-weak bench into our starting lineup, they take their weak performance from the bench and translate that into the starting lineup, and then we still don't have a bench.

It is what it is, at some point. This is the result of our various gaps and weaknesses.

[PushDaRock]

I have the same opinion as you on most if not all of this stuff. But, you still have to try and find a way to make things work out there even with limited means to get it done.

We are trying. It just doesn't work. And it won't magically start working, because we have too many limitations and too many roster gaps, is what I'm saying. And trying the same thing we already know doesn't work (running the ball more to Scottie) has a 0% chance of solving the problem, because we already know that doesn't work.

I'm just not really seeing how protecting his limitations out there while forcing others even less capable than him to have to score more is helping us.

Again, though, we have other, larger issues to address than Scottie. We already know he can't help us with this specific issue. He doesn't have that skill set, doesn't have the tools, nor the temperament. So we have to look at other avenues. And right now, they aren't working either.

We'll see what happens when BI and Quick rediscover their shot, and of course when RJ comes back. But this is who we are as a team. We are perpetually on thin ice because we can't suffer any loss of starters very well. When we have to shuffle our already-weak bench into our starting lineup, they take their weak performance from the bench and translate that into the starting lineup, and then we still don't have a bench.

It is what it is, at some point. This is the result of our various gaps and weaknesses.

We need everyone healthy again to determine whether the 13 wins out of 14 was more of a mirage or whether there is something a bit more there.

I think this season has just been odd from the perspective that if you would have said we would be 18-14, the assumption is probably that a lot more went right than what actually has. Only really Mamu is exceeding expectations in a major way. Scottie and RJ have been good but aren't playing that much above expectations. We probably would have also assumed our young players took some leaps too which hasn't happened at all, they've mostly regressed instead.

[tsherkin]

We need everyone healthy again to determine whether the 13 wins out of 14 was more of a mirage or whether there is something a bit more there.

Yeah. I mean, it's probably a mixture of both, to be honest. We're definitely a lot better than THIS when we're healthy, but we're also very much likely not a 55-win type of team either.

I think this season has just been odd from the perspective that if you would have said we would be 18-14, the assumption is probably that a lot more went right than what actually has.

A little better than expectations, I'd say. A lot of people had us pegged as a 39- to 44-win team. So 46-win pace isn't all that far off.

Only really Mamu is exceeding expectations in a major way. Scottie and RJ have been good but aren't playing that much above expectations. We probably would have also assumed our young players took some leaps too which hasn't happened at all, they've mostly regressed instead.

Mamu has been a nice subplot, for sure. But yeah, our youth isn't really excited and none of them exhibit a really tantalizing ceiling, either. We've had moments from them, but nothing that's really showcasing any major potential.

RJ's doing well. He has his weaknesses, but like Scottie (and on O, to a greater extent), he's showing that when we structure his role properly, he can thrive. Scottie's having a good overall season, but he needs things to go a certain way for his scoring to be acceptable. That's always been his biggest limitation... but even pre-draft, everyone and their mother knew he wasn't a scorer. He was never projected to be such, so we've always been asking too much of him there. That he's where he is now is pretty impressive, all told. I think people are just attaching to his draft slot a little too much, you know? A 19/8/5 guy who defends well and manages reasonable efficiency is a really valuable player. And when he, RJ and BI are playing together (especially with Quick), the O looks great.

But we're trying to have everything all at once, and we simply don't have the pieces in general, and certainly not to manage extended absences. And then there's our frontcourt. And our bench. So many holes.

We just have to keep perspective. We won 30 games last year. We're better this year, but we have a lot of work to do in order to continue improving.

[720]

This was obvious to everyone except casuals and Team Mediocre.

[720]

It's going to take a new GM to have the balls to make a Barnes trade. I love Scottie and it would kill me to trade him but we **** up his timeline with bad contracts and picks that are too much of projects to develop.

You could get get the Pelicans pick and some good young player from Atlanta for Barnes.

We should have tanked when we got him at 4. It was obvious we were capped with Siakam, Fred and OG. We got gifted the 4th pick and didn’t double down on that trajectory. Instead we wasted like 3-4 years.

[720]

Team Mediocre blaming Barnes when he’s literally like one of the only bright spots on the roster. Is he inconsistent on offense? Yes, but he takes on such a big load on defense. He has to carry negative defenders all season. Plus we never get shooters around him to help with his game. We literally never build a team that is compatible around our Max guy. Poeltl, Ingram, IQ, RJ, these guys are not complimentary to Barnes’ game at all yet he still tries and makes it work.

[DatHomieYouHaTe]

We should've been in a rebuild the day the 4th pick in the 2021 draft fall into our laps.... Since then I barely can enjoy or watch any raptors games/seasons to the fullest.

We should have been in a rebuild the day Kawhi left.. Our management was afraid to take chances.