Decision making during our "rebuild" has been shockingly terrible. Review of timeline + path forward

[Clutch0z24]

it's not easy to rebuild when you tank 3 consecutive years and end up with jakobe, gradey, cmb

Yep but thing is we never really committed to tanking ....We were always trying to compete with flawed and bad teams....Traded for Yak expecting to make a playoff run, Ended up losing to the Bulls in a play in game....What a joke that was....Basically wasted a potential legit chance in the Wemby Lottery for that....To end up with Gradey...

Then we lost our pick the following year because of that horrible Yak move which we ended up being a 25-57 tanking team while trying to win because we did not have our draft pick so we were basically tanking for the spurs that year What a joke that is....Ended up with Jakobe with a pick that wasn't even our own...

Following that season up with a half ass tank when we should of tried to bottom out we end up winning 30 games and moving down in the lottery....Getting a mid prospect in CMB at the end of it, All while trading more draft capital to bring in Ingram to solidify us as team mid for even a longer period of time...

We have not really tried to rebuild the right way and that has led to us with a half assed flawed core of a team....Prolly will have to restart in a year or two once we fire Bobby...Wasting more years..

[LoveMyRaps]

Poeltl, Ingram, IQ, RJ, these guys are not complimentary to Barnes’ game at all yet he still tries and makes it work.

These are 4 guys with completely different skillsets. So out of curiosity, what type of players do you think would be "complimentary" to Barnes' game?

[Clutch0z24]

Poeltl, Ingram, IQ, RJ, these guys are not complimentary to Barnes’ game at all yet he still tries and makes it work.

These are 4 guys with completely different skillsets. So out of curiosity, what type of players do you think would be "complimentary" to Barnes' game?

To me i don't think you should even bother building a team around Barnes because he is not a legit first option and i don't think he ever was....So no matter how many complimentary players you have around him it will end up to us being a mid team....Barnes would need a Shai level talent to play beside because Barnes on a legit title contending team would be in a sim role that Chet is in with the Thunder....So hes like a 3rd option that our front office is trying to push as a first option...

I don't ever see us getting a legit first option in the "Barnes era" so i don't see it ever working out with him in Toronto and i feel eventually just like Bosh....As long as Barnes is being pushed as the franchise player our ceiling will be first round exits...

We need to some how find a way to get a new franchise player first option type of guy that can actally develop into that role and have success....Obvously easier said than done but eventually our front office will figure that out i hope...

[720]

Poeltl, Ingram, IQ, RJ, these guys are not complimentary to Barnes’ game at all yet he still tries and makes it work.

These are 4 guys with completely different skillsets. So out of curiosity, what type of players do you think would be "complimentary" to Barnes' game?

To me i don't think you should even bother building a team around Barnes because he is not a legit first option and i don't think he ever was....So no matter how many complimentary players you have around him it will end up to us being a mid team....Barnes would need a Shai level talent to play beside because Barnes on a legit title contending team would be in a sim role that Chet is in with the Thunder....So hes like a 3rd option that our front office is trying to push as a first option...

I don't ever see us getting a legit first option in the "Barnes era" so i don't see it ever working out with him in Toronto and i feel eventually just like Bosh....As long as Barnes is being pushed as the franchise player our ceiling will be first round exits...

We need to some how find a way to get a new franchise player first option type of guy that can actally develop into that role and have success....Obvously easier said than done but eventually our front office will figure that out i hope...

The thing is….many of us said we should tank so that we could add more blue chip prospects around Barnes. So that even if he isn’t THE guy. We roll the dice and might get another to add to Barnes and see where that goes. If you’re not gonna double down on trying to get the best draft picks. Then the least you could do is build a complimentary team around the only blue chip prospect you had.

[StopitLeo]

Leading up to 2019 the team had a ridiculous run of success in the draft, with players greatly out performing what you would have expected based on where they were (or were not) drafted. Delon, Jak, Pascal, OG, Fred, Norm (I know he was technically drafted by the Bucks)...They drafted 5 starting quality players and a solid bench guy. This was not normal. Nobody imagined Pascal or Fred would become the players they did.

The best/worst example of how "the draft game" is hardly a recipe for success is the Sixers. They tanked into two #1 and two #3 picks over 4 years, with guys who were All-NBA/All-Defense and even MVP. They made the playoffs for 7 years in a row but never made it out of the 2nd round.

People way overvalue first round picks. Anthony Edwards could just have easily been James Wiseman, who a good drafting team selected.

Agreed on all counts. We had a 3 or 4 year run where we were one of the best drafting FOs in the modern era and it may have spoiled the fanbase a bit. Created a misperception of how easy it is. Fred, norm, og, siakam - all of whom FAR exceeded expected outcomes while even Delon and Poetl were solid too. That just doesn't happen normally.

This iteration has one big move to make which is gonna decide everything. I'm convinced that we are eventually gonna consolidate for a flawed star. Have no idea who it will be.....

And that move is gonna be the real deciding factor. Either that flawed star thrives with us or we put the nail in the coffin for this iteration of the team. I was really pessimistic about this iteration of the team during the summer. But the first 20 games proved me wrong so now i'm a little more hesitant in thinking the next big move will fail. But if it does fail....then i think it becomes firesale time for this iteration and we start over again.

Ppl don't like to hear about flawed stars because it's easy to get caught up on recent history. But the whole point is to have the vision wherein the guy turns it around. So names like AD and Lamelo and Trae and Jah is what we're looking at. There will be a couple more added to that list in the next couple months.

I agree about the “flawed star”. It’s easy to forget about how Kawhi was perceived when we traded for him. Can you imagine the backlash if we hadn’t won the title?

For a team to be a championship contender you almost always need an MVP level player on the roster. It’s not exactly easy to trade for those kinds of players given how few there are. So short of getting someone like Giannis the best we can do is try to incrementally increase the level of talent at the top of our roster and hope things “click” as the role players change. We’ve literally seen it several times with the Raptors and things usually turn quickly and somewhat unexpectedly (e.g., signing Garbo, Rudy Gay trade).

[bluerap23]

Poeltl, Ingram, IQ, RJ, these guys are not complimentary to Barnes’ game at all yet he still tries and makes it work.

These are 4 guys with completely different skillsets. So out of curiosity, what type of players do you think would be "complimentary" to Barnes' game?

What's our record when all 5 play?

[Pointgod]

Poeltl, Ingram, IQ, RJ, these guys are not complimentary to Barnes’ game at all yet he still tries and makes it work.

These are 4 guys with completely different skillsets. So out of curiosity, what type of players do you think would be "complimentary" to Barnes' game?

To me i don't think you should even bother building a team around Barnes because he is not a legit first option and i don't think he ever was....So no matter how many complimentary players you have around him it will end up to us being a mid team....Barnes would need a Shai level talent to play beside because Barnes on a legit title contending team would be in a sim role that Chet is in with the Thunder....So hes like a 3rd option that our front office is trying to push as a first option...

I don't ever see us getting a legit first option in the "Barnes era" so i don't see it ever working out with him in Toronto and i feel eventually just like Bosh....As long as Barnes is being pushed as the franchise player our ceiling will be first round exits...

We need to some how find a way to get a new franchise player first option type of guy that can actally develop into that role and have success....Obvously easier said than done but eventually our front office will figure that out i hope...

To the bolded, really the only way to do that is through the draft or through free agency. And we’ll end up with a mid to late first round pick and we’re capped out for the next 3 years at least. Very few paths to make it work.

[canz55]

For the record CMB is a good player and I'm convinced he's going to have a long and productive NBA career. He's a "fine" pick just not a great one.

This upcoming draft that we're missing out on is going to hurt though.

[PushDaRock]

We need everyone healthy again to determine whether the 13 wins out of 14 was more of a mirage or whether there is something a bit more there.

Yeah. I mean, it's probably a mixture of both, to be honest. We're definitely a lot better than THIS when we're healthy, but we're also very much likely not a 55-win type of team either.

I think this season has just been odd from the perspective that if you would have said we would be 18-14, the assumption is probably that a lot more went right than what actually has.

A little better than expectations, I'd say. A lot of people had us pegged as a 39- to 44-win team. So 46-win pace isn't all that far off.

Only really Mamu is exceeding expectations in a major way. Scottie and RJ have been good but aren't playing that much above expectations. We probably would have also assumed our young players took some leaps too which hasn't happened at all, they've mostly regressed instead.

Mamu has been a nice subplot, for sure. But yeah, our youth isn't really excited and none of them exhibit a really tantalizing ceiling, either. We've had moments from them, but nothing that's really showcasing any major potential.

RJ's doing well. He has his weaknesses, but like Scottie (and on O, to a greater extent), he's showing that when we structure his role properly, he can thrive. Scottie's having a good overall season, but he needs things to go a certain way for his scoring to be acceptable. That's always been his biggest limitation... but even pre-draft, everyone and their mother knew he wasn't a scorer. He was never projected to be such, so we've always been asking too much of him there. That he's where he is now is pretty impressive, all told. I think people are just attaching to his draft slot a little too much, you know? A 19/8/5 guy who defends well and manages reasonable efficiency is a really valuable player. And when he, RJ and BI are playing together (especially with Quick), the O looks great.

But we're trying to have everything all at once, and we simply don't have the pieces in general, and certainly not to manage extended absences. And then there's our frontcourt. And our bench. So many holes.

We just have to keep perspective. We won 30 games last year. We're better this year, but we have a lot of work to do in order to continue improving.

Part of the frustration is probably that while we have performed a bit better than expected in the W/L column, many of our players individually have not performed well at all. That's a bit frustrating because we know we need a consolidation trade at the very least and an upgrade for a big piece ideally at some point. Those are easier to do when your players have value around the league. That's pretty unlikely to happen for this trade deadline though given the circumstances and hopefully we still finish out the year decently and this current slide doesn't spiral out of control.

[PushDaRock]

Poeltl, Ingram, IQ, RJ, these guys are not complimentary to Barnes’ game at all yet he still tries and makes it work.

These are 4 guys with completely different skillsets. So out of curiosity, what type of players do you think would be "complimentary" to Barnes' game?

That's the part that's puzzling to me. We literally put pieces around Scottie to compliment his game and not have him doing stuff he can't do well. He's not much of a screener, so we got Jak. Not much of a shooter, so we got IQ. Not a good driver, so we got RJ. Not a good ISO scorer, so we got Ingram.

People still seem to have this fantasy that he's Giannis light and just needs all shooters around him so he can go to work.

[tsherkin]

Part of the frustration is probably that while we have performed a bit better than expected in the W/L column, many of our players individually have not performed well at all. That's a bit frustrating because we know we need a consolidation trade at the very least and an upgrade for a big piece ideally at some point. Those are easier to do when your players have value around the league. That's pretty unlikely to happen for this trade deadline though given the circumstances and hopefully we still finish out the year decently and this current slide doesn't spiral out of control.

Yep. There's lots of frustration and disappointment to go around, that's hard to deny, no doubt. And we aren't in an amazing position, nor do I suspect any of us have really deep confidence in management at this time until they show us something different. Can't really argue with that, either.

But we don't really have a choice but to give them some time to see what they do, if they do anything, and take it from there. Moves don't manifest from nothing, and we don't have any really hot assets at the moment, so it probably won't be miracle-level stuff, either. This is going to take some time. We've been worse in our history, so at least there's that. It isn't much, but like, we aren't at the bottom of the league right now, nor will we be if we can get healthy for any length of time.

[Duffman100]

Poeltl, Ingram, IQ, RJ, these guys are not complimentary to Barnes’ game at all yet he still tries and makes it work.

These are 4 guys with completely different skillsets. So out of curiosity, what type of players do you think would be "complimentary" to Barnes' game?

That's the part that's puzzling to me. We literally put pieces around Scottie to compliment his game and not have him doing stuff he can't do well. He's not much of a screener, so we got Jak. Not much of a shooter, so we got IQ. Not a good driver, so we got RJ. Not a good ISO scorer, so we got Ingram.

People still seem to have this fantasy that he's Giannis light and just needs all shooters around him so he can go to work.

He's still by far our best player. There's no doubt about that.

He's just not a guy you'd focus on finding the "right pieces" to build around him. Rather challenge him to develop the diversity of skills to be plug and play with any lineup.

Btw it would be nice to see some of these posters in this thread actually post when we're winning.

[Indeed]

Part of the frustration is probably that while we have performed a bit better than expected in the W/L column, many of our players individually have not performed well at all. That's a bit frustrating because we know we need a consolidation trade at the very least and an upgrade for a big piece ideally at some point. Those are easier to do when your players have value around the league. That's pretty unlikely to happen for this trade deadline though given the circumstances and hopefully we still finish out the year decently and this current slide doesn't spiral out of control.

Yep. There's lots of frustration and disappointment to go around, that's hard to deny, no doubt. And we aren't in an amazing position, nor do I suspect any of us have really deep confidence in management at this time until they show us something different. Can't really argue with that, either.

But we don't really have a choice but to give them some time to see what they do, if they do anything, and take it from there. Moves don't manifest from nothing, and we don't have any really hot assets at the moment, so it probably won't be miracle-level stuff, either. This is going to take some time. We've been worse in our history, so at least there's that. It isn't much, but like, we aren't at the bottom of the league right now, nor will we be if we can get healthy for any length of time.

The sad part is that we don't move those players when they improve and thought they can over come their ceiling. Trent was a good example that we didn't move him after the first season or second season, we ended up losing him as a min contract. Flynn is another where we should give him up on the third year, and look for someone at another position for need.

This really showed our front office no longer able to evaluate a player, particularly determining players ceiling.

[Indeed]

These are 4 guys with completely different skillsets. So out of curiosity, what type of players do you think would be "complimentary" to Barnes' game?

That's the part that's puzzling to me. We literally put pieces around Scottie to compliment his game and not have him doing stuff he can't do well. He's not much of a screener, so we got Jak. Not much of a shooter, so we got IQ. Not a good driver, so we got RJ. Not a good ISO scorer, so we got Ingram.

People still seem to have this fantasy that he's Giannis light and just needs all shooters around him so he can go to work.

He's still by far our best player. There's no doubt about that.

He's just not a guy you'd focus on finding the "right pieces" to build around him. Rather challenge him to develop the diversity of skills to be plug and play with any lineup.

Btw it would be nice to see some of these posters in this thread actually post when we're winning.

I have to disagree he is our best player. I would even argue that Barrett is better than him. Barnes showed some flashes, but you can tell those flashes won't be consistent.

I also don't see him being a hard worker like Siakam, where these hard worker can get to their ceiling. He is just popular because of his social media status and marketing.

[tsherkin]

The sad part is that we don't move those players when they improve and thought they can over come their ceiling. Trent was a good example that we didn't move him after the first season or second season, we ended up losing him as a min contract. Flynn is another where we should give him up on the third year, and look for someone at another position for need.

This really showed our front office no longer able to evaluate a player, particularly determining players ceiling.

Yeah, we've shown some difficulty making the right choices. Hopefully with a less distracted GM, things will go a little better as we move forward? I dunno. We'll see.

[HangTime]

If you really want that 25-30 point scoring Scottie, all I think we really need is a lead defender.

Like In 2023-24, getting rid of OG was a bigger loss than getting rid of Pascal. The middle of that season is when the re-build started.

Year 1
When Darko was signed we were thinking rebuild, and Pascal would be traded before training in camp.
Instead we tried to compete, and Scottie was putting up all NBA style performances.
After OG was traded Scottie took on OG's defensive role, and took a step back on offense to acomadate RJ and IQ.
When Pascal was traded, we shifted into the rebuild
But we shut guys down early. RJ and IQ got better, but there's way more going on behind the scenes.

Year 2
We got 5 rookies, and guys were making mistakes, but the process was really good.

This year (3)
Incorporating BI pretty much slowed the development, process and gets guys to try to focus on "smaller roles." and I think that hurts their play in the short term.

Have paitences everyone,
it's only been a year and a bit of an actual rebuild.

[Indeed]

The sad part is that we don't move those players when they improve and thought they can over come their ceiling. Trent was a good example that we didn't move him after the first season or second season, we ended up losing him as a min contract. Flynn is another where we should give him up on the third year, and look for someone at another position for need.

This really showed our front office no longer able to evaluate a player, particularly determining players ceiling.

Yeah, we've shown some difficulty making the right choices. Hopefully with a less distracted GM, things will go a little better as we move forward? I dunno. We'll see.

I think it would be mostly the opposite, as Ujiri was a scout, he knows better on player talent, while Webster was likely behind these decisions, making changes based on coaches instead of his knowledge.

This is the reason Ujiri traded for Ingram, and we are clearly a much better team, while Webster objects to it and have little idea on fixing the team.

[720]

Poeltl, Ingram, IQ, RJ, these guys are not complimentary to Barnes’ game at all yet he still tries and makes it work.

These are 4 guys with completely different skillsets. So out of curiosity, what type of players do you think would be "complimentary" to Barnes' game?

That's the part that's puzzling to me. We literally put pieces around Scottie to compliment his game and not have him doing stuff he can't do well. He's not much of a screener, so we got Jak. Not much of a shooter, so we got IQ. Not a good driver, so we got RJ. Not a good ISO scorer, so we got Ingram.

People still seem to have this fantasy that he's Giannis light and just needs all shooters around him so he can go to work.

Poeltl, Ingram, RJ, all these guys provide no spacing two of them are bad defenders. They often overlap each other including Barnes on the court. It’s like a less talented version of Siakam, OG and rookie Barnes. We’re only an above .500 team because of Barnes and his impact.

[tsherkin]

I think it would be mostly the opposite, as Ujiri was a scout, he knows better on player talent, while Webster was likely behind these decisions, making changes based on coaches instead of his knowledge.

Maybe. But he also didn't do us too many favors in recent years with the draft, and he was distracted with all of his other projects, like Giants of Africa and everything. Or at least so goes the gossip, right?

This is the reason Ujiri traded for Ingram, and we are clearly a much better team, while Webster objects to it and have little idea on fixing the team.

That has certainly been generally a positive for us, outside of the past 15 games.

[PushDaRock]

These are 4 guys with completely different skillsets. So out of curiosity, what type of players do you think would be "complimentary" to Barnes' game?

That's the part that's puzzling to me. We literally put pieces around Scottie to compliment his game and not have him doing stuff he can't do well. He's not much of a screener, so we got Jak. Not much of a shooter, so we got IQ. Not a good driver, so we got RJ. Not a good ISO scorer, so we got Ingram.

People still seem to have this fantasy that he's Giannis light and just needs all shooters around him so he can go to work.

Poeltl, Ingram, RJ, all these guys provide no spacing two of them are bad defenders. They often overlap each other including Barnes on the court. It’s like a less talented version of Siakam, OG and rookie Barnes. We’re only an above .500 team because of Barnes and his impact.

so pretend like he's Giannis light like I said