PG: BENCH MOB COMES UP HUGE!!!

[causal_fan]

I have come to the conclusion that Quick is Malik Monk Light without the athleticism . He makes bad reads, not consistent with the ball, lost on Dand just bad PG

I thought he would progress to be decent with the ball and not make turnovers but I think he doesn’t process the game well

If we can move his contract for a useful player we have to do it
RJ can play but we need a true PG and another solid big
Roll the Dice on Quick for Ball or if Cleveland prefers a shooter beside Mitchell are they will to switch for garland ?

Some recency bias going on here. IQ is sporting a 3.5 AST/TO ratio (which is just outside the top 10 among qualified players) and a 28 AST% which is pretty much right in line with guys like Murray, Brunson, Fox, Maxey, etc. He is not a bad PG by any means. Pretty average when it comes to playmaking and defence, but he has a lot more potential scoring the ball that we just haven’t maximized because we’ve been asking him to run the offence a bit more frequently. Ideally, he’s a 20/5/5 kind of guy that takes 8-10 threes per game while being a decent defender.

He’s not the guy you want running the team when you want to win, which is why Shead has been closing out games. We need to unlock his shooting more and have him handle the ball less. He is very bad at processing the game - can’t make simple obvious passes and misses very obvious plays.

He protects the ball well, which is something. I think Bobby needs to he is another PG so we can run Shead and IQ in tandem more and most completely play IQ as a 2 guard.

Do people realize that Shead's TS% is like 49%? That is dreadful especially for someone that doesn't have a specialized skill out there. IQ is way better and a significantly better fit in the lineup given his shooting ability. Wanting Shead to play over IQ is literally absurd. lol.

IQ hate is overblown and somewhat irrational. Though part of it comes from how Darko/the team uses him. He needs to be a scorer first and foremost, but theyj put a lot more emphasis on his playmaking which exposes a lot of the holes in his game. They did the same thing when they tried to shove Scottie as a PG down our throats.

It probably says more about how IQ processes the game when people would rather have a guy with a 49% TS running the point. People thinking IQ isn’t a PG doesn’t mean people don’t think IQ is a good player or that Shead is a better player. IQ is definite better player by far and he is a very good player in general. But he is not a PG and should not be the starting PG on this team.

Problem is the Raptors want to develop Dick & Walter at the SG which is why all the talk about moving RJ - The Raptors need to swap IQ for a more traditional PG - a tough task with IQ's performance & contract.

[bluerap23]

7 offensive boards for CMBeast

Glad to see the nickname I coined is finally catching on

[ForeverTFC]

Wagner has been their best player while Suggs is their engine like mini Lowry. Magic would clearly be favored against us in a series if the rosters stay intact.

clearly how, we have a 19ppg missing SG and our starting C. We've been the better team this entire szn so far, definitely a toss up & I like my Raps

Their missing pieces are MUCH better than our missing pieces. They also made an "all in" move, which is a big reason why theyre better right now. We shouldn't be insecure to admit other teams are better than us currently lol

Orlando is extremely overrated. They're in the same tier as us: you can order the tier as you like, but it's all the same - a bunch of above average teams with clear flaws that cap their ceiling at 2nd round fodder. I don't know why the media fell in love with this team and Paolo like they did. Paolo isn't even the best player on his own team.

Same thing with Atlanta. Never understood the love.

[Grew]

I have come to the conclusion that Quick is Malik Monk Light without the athleticism . He makes bad reads, not consistent with the ball, lost on Dand just bad PG

I thought he would progress to be decent with the ball and not make turnovers but I think he doesn’t process the game well

If we can move his contract for a useful player we have to do it
RJ can play but we need a true PG and another solid big
Roll the Dice on Quick for Ball or if Cleveland prefers a shooter beside Mitchell are they will to switch for garland ?

Some recency bias going on here. IQ is sporting a 3.5 AST/TO ratio (which is just outside the top 10 among qualified players) and a 28 AST% which is pretty much right in line with guys like Murray, Brunson, Fox, Maxey, etc. He is not a bad PG by any means. Pretty average when it comes to playmaking and defence, but he has a lot more potential scoring the ball that we just haven’t maximized because we’ve been asking him to run the offence a bit more frequently. Ideally, he’s a 20/5/5 kind of guy that takes 8-10 threes per game while being a decent defender.

He’s not the guy you want running the team when you want to win, which is why Shead has been closing out games. We need to unlock his shooting more and have him handle the ball less. He is very bad at processing the game - can’t make simple obvious passes and misses very obvious plays.

He protects the ball well, which is something. I think Bobby needs to he is another PG so we can run Shead and IQ in tandem more and most completely play IQ as a 2 guard.

Do people realize that Shead's TS% is like 49%? That is dreadful especially for someone that doesn't have a specialized skill out there. IQ is way better and a significantly better fit in the lineup given his shooting ability. Wanting Shead to play over IQ is literally absurd. lol.

IQ hate is overblown and somewhat irrational. Though part of it comes from how Darko/the team uses him. He needs to be a scorer first and foremost, but theyj put a lot more emphasis on his playmaking which exposes a lot of the holes in his game. They did the same thing when they tried to shove Scottie as a PG down our throats.

It probably says more about how IQ processes the game when people would rather have a guy with a 49% TS running the point. People thinking IQ isn’t a PG doesn’t mean people don’t think IQ is a good player or that Shead is a better player. IQ is definite better player by far and he is a very good player in general. But he is not a PG and should not be the starting PG on this team.

The problem with IQ as a fulltime 2 is that he really lacks physicality. We try to hide him defensively on the worst wing/guard out there, but if someone gets a head of steam and attacks, IQ is an absolute pylon, worst on the team at defending drives. So in a lineup where we have him and Shead, if the other team has size and aggression on the perimeter, it's a problem.

IQ really is a modern Lou Williams type. He's a combo gunner who isn't really effective at defending either guard position. Hard to slot a guy like that in as a full time starter. IQ will make a defensive play every now and again, but his overall defensive consistency and versatility is terrible.

[PushDaRock]

Lowry was always playing smart tho and being a dog on defence. He just played the game the right way (almost to a fault when he would defer instead of just being selfish).

Barnes is sometimes just deferring when he should be aggressive and being aggressive when he should defer.

But it’s hard to really harp on anyone for not being Lowry. Dude was one of the smartest players I’ve ever seen

We are seeing a bit more of those Lowry winning type plays from him this season, it's a slow process with him though.

Lowry was probably up there with LeBron in Basketball IQ. I've never seen anyone execute a 2 for 1 better than him.

Actually he pretty much always makes great plays all game and has been doing it for years. His one fault is not being aggressive enough trying to score, which Lowry used to do all the time also. Big difference is Lowry had a 3 point shot that was pretty consistent.

We’re not seeing “a bit more” - Barnes is essentially elite at doing all the right things other than scoring. I’m not sure why some of you just don’t want t to acknowledge that lol. Dude plays for the team you cheer for. I always said I hope he develops into a Garnett type who was more of a secondary third option. His offence still isn’t there though in terms of being a great mid range guy who tries to score more consistently.

He's nowhere near KG level offensively and it's very unlikely he gets close to that either. KG was top 10 in the league as a scorer semi regularly and always top 20, also finished 3rd one season. Scottie is 40th in scoring this season.

"Winning Plays" is subjective in nature. We're winning more games this season and it's easier to notice the game winning block, key steal, defensive possession and etc.

[Tor_Raps]

clearly how, we have a 19ppg missing SG and our starting C. We've been the better team this entire szn so far, definitely a toss up & I like my Raps

Their missing pieces are MUCH better than our missing pieces. They also made an "all in" move, which is a big reason why theyre better right now. We shouldn't be insecure to admit other teams are better than us currently lol

Orlando is extremely overrated. They're in the same tier as us: you can order the tier as you like, but it's all the same - a bunch of above average teams with clear flaws that cap their ceiling at 2nd round fodder. I don't know why the media fell in love with this team and Paolo like they did. Paolo isn't even the best player on his own team.

Same thing with Atlanta. Never understood the love.

Orlando might not be a championship contender some said but they are definitely a level above us when healthy. Wagner has been their best player and Suggs is their engine... judging Orlando without them in the lineup is foolish. You go ask the General Board and it would massively favour Orlando.

[ForeverTFC]

Their missing pieces are MUCH better than our missing pieces. They also made an "all in" move, which is a big reason why theyre better right now. We shouldn't be insecure to admit other teams are better than us currently lol

Orlando is extremely overrated. They're in the same tier as us: you can order the tier as you like, but it's all the same - a bunch of above average teams with clear flaws that cap their ceiling at 2nd round fodder. I don't know why the media fell in love with this team and Paolo like they did. Paolo isn't even the best player on his own team.

Same thing with Atlanta. Never understood the love.

Orlando might not be a championship contender some said but they are definitely a level above us when healthy. Wagner has been their best player and Suggs is their engine... judging Orlando without them in the lineup is foolish. You go ask the General Board and it would massively favour Orlando.

I know what the consensus is. I disagree with that consensus view. The same consensus had them a tier above Detroit in the off-season. I argued for Detroit in the off-season GB threads and was in the minority then as well. Detroit was clearly a class above teams like ours and Orlando.

Franz/Poalo is roughly equal to Ingram/Scottie to me. And my posting history will show I'm not the biggest Scottie fan. Suggs is great defensively but is a bad shooter ignoring a half season hot streak and often injured. Bane is good but they paid way too much to get him. Black is coming on and projects to be a good rotation player. What else do they have on that roster?

There is merit to the argument that they are better than us right now. But in another tier than us? I just don't see it. Raps/Magic/Heat/Hawks are all the same to me.

[DreamTeam09]

Their missing pieces are MUCH better than our missing pieces. They also made an "all in" move, which is a big reason why theyre better right now. We shouldn't be insecure to admit other teams are better than us currently lol

Orlando is extremely overrated. They're in the same tier as us: you can order the tier as you like, but it's all the same - a bunch of above average teams with clear flaws that cap their ceiling at 2nd round fodder. I don't know why the media fell in love with this team and Paolo like they did. Paolo isn't even the best player on his own team.

Same thing with Atlanta. Never understood the love.

Orlando might not be a championship contender some said but they are definitely a level above us when healthy. Wagner has been their best player and Suggs is their engine... judging Orlando without them in the lineup is foolish. You go ask the General Board and it would massively favour Orlando.

Just because you say it doesn't make it factual
Just because we disagree doesn't mean we are right either,
so it's probably somewhere in the middle which is why you're getting pushback. You are saying words like definitely and clearly when it's simply not the case, they were healthy to start the year & they didn't look like world beaters. You and the general board would be going off past/recent production/sentiments of Orlando vs past production/sentiments of the Raptors, where yeah Orlando would be favored in a popularity contest which is what that would turn into on the GB

If the playoffs started right now we would be playing Orlando in a 4-5 home series & Vegas would probably give us the slight edge being the homecourt & all. That's with everyone being healthy, in no way would Vegas have Orlando as clear favs in a 7game series. .
I think we CLEARLY have the best player on the court
Clearly the best defender on the court
The best big on the court

[Tor_Raps]

Orlando is extremely overrated. They're in the same tier as us: you can order the tier as you like, but it's all the same - a bunch of above average teams with clear flaws that cap their ceiling at 2nd round fodder. I don't know why the media fell in love with this team and Paolo like they did. Paolo isn't even the best player on his own team.

Same thing with Atlanta. Never understood the love.

Orlando might not be a championship contender some said but they are definitely a level above us when healthy. Wagner has been their best player and Suggs is their engine... judging Orlando without them in the lineup is foolish. You go ask the General Board and it would massively favour Orlando.

Just because you say it doesn't make it factual
Just because we disagree doesn't mean we are right either,
so it's probably somewhere in the middle which is why you're getting pushback. You are saying words like definitely and clearly when it's simply not the case, they were healthy to start the year & they didn't look like world beaters. You and the general board would be going off past/recent production/sentiments of Orlando vs past production/sentiments of the Raptors, where yeah Orlando would be favored in a popularity contest which is what that would turn into on the GB

If the playoffs started right now we would be playing Orlando in a 4-5 home series & Vegas would probably give us the slight edge being the homecourt & all. That's with everyone being healthy, in no way would Vegas have Orlando as clear favs in a 7game series. .
I think we CLEARLY have the best player on the court
Clearly the best defender on the court
The best big on the court

There were a bunch who agreed with Masai in thinking Poeltl was a top 10 Center so this doesnt reflect on you personally but people here are far too raptors centric aka homers.

Its gonna be a long season so we'll see who's right. Id actually wager money on this if we actually knew each other in real life.

[YogurtProducer]

Do people realize that Shead's TS% is like 49%? That is dreadful especially for someone that doesn't have a specialized skill out there. IQ is way better and a significantly better fit in the lineup given his shooting ability. Wanting Shead to play over IQ is literally absurd. lol.

IQ hate is a bit overblown especially considering he was a big reason that they just beat the Warriors, 27 points and 5/10 from 3pt.....he just needs to be more consistent, don't want him to be a hot/cold player.

Moving Shead to starter makes sense if Raptors make a big trade to upgrade the center position...lets say they trade a IQ+Poeltl package. But then Raptors will need to fill the backup PG spot.

Any trade that ends up with Shead being our best PG isn’t a good trade for a serious team.

Big fan of Shead, but he’s an energy bench guard

[YogurtProducer]

Their missing pieces are MUCH better than our missing pieces. They also made an "all in" move, which is a big reason why theyre better right now. We shouldn't be insecure to admit other teams are better than us currently lol

Orlando is extremely overrated. They're in the same tier as us: you can order the tier as you like, but it's all the same - a bunch of above average teams with clear flaws that cap their ceiling at 2nd round fodder. I don't know why the media fell in love with this team and Paolo like they did. Paolo isn't even the best player on his own team.

Same thing with Atlanta. Never understood the love.

Orlando might not be a championship contender some said but they are definitely a level above us when healthy. Wagner has been their best player and Suggs is their engine... judging Orlando without them in the lineup is foolish. You go ask the General Board and it would massively favour Orlando.

And we were missing our starting SG and our really only big.

Wagner - 23/6/4 60TS%
Barrett - 19/5/4 60TS%

Why is Wagner missing relevant, but Barrett isn’t even mentioned?

[Son Goku 25]

Their missing pieces are MUCH better than our missing pieces. They also made an "all in" move, which is a big reason why theyre better right now. We shouldn't be insecure to admit other teams are better than us currently lol

Orlando is extremely overrated. They're in the same tier as us: you can order the tier as you like, but it's all the same - a bunch of above average teams with clear flaws that cap their ceiling at 2nd round fodder. I don't know why the media fell in love with this team and Paolo like they did. Paolo isn't even the best player on his own team.

Same thing with Atlanta. Never understood the love.

Orlando might not be a championship contender some said but they are definitely a level above us when healthy. Wagner has been their best player and Suggs is their engine... judging Orlando without them in the lineup is foolish. You go ask the General Board and it would massively favour Orlando.

I agree about ORL likely being better than us at this point but the general board isn't the place to go to for validation as most of them are anti Raptors to begin with. If anything, Orl haven't really proven anything and same with these Raptors. Though Orlando has been in rebuild mode for like 2 decades.

[Tripod]

It's sort of easy to see why Orlando would he viewed as a higher tier than the Raps.

2 years ago they went 47-35.
Last year dropped to 41-41 but had PB, JS and FW miss 100 games combined.

So it would be logical to thing they have better health this year and bounce back given how young they are too.

Then add on adding Bane with a big trade and it's easy to see why they could he a possible 50 win team.

The Raps were hoping to be playin to playoff team with "realistically" looking up at Knicks, Cavs, and Magic for sure.

Then, lots of question marks around Celtics, Hawks, 76ers, Heat and Pacers for different reasons. I think "most" positive people had us in this type tier.

Pistons...I think most wanted to see if last years results were real and they could build on it, or drop back. Again question marks.

JMO of course, but I think this was reasonable thoughts. And I say this as someone who thought the Raps could win 45-50 games defending on Yaks health...because I knew him missing games would result in more losses than with him healthy.

We have had a Rollercoaster of a season but given our injuries, our record is solid. Hopefully we haveca good Jan.

[Tor_Raps]

Orlando is extremely overrated. They're in the same tier as us: you can order the tier as you like, but it's all the same - a bunch of above average teams with clear flaws that cap their ceiling at 2nd round fodder. I don't know why the media fell in love with this team and Paolo like they did. Paolo isn't even the best player on his own team.

Same thing with Atlanta. Never understood the love.

Orlando might not be a championship contender some said but they are definitely a level above us when healthy. Wagner has been their best player and Suggs is their engine... judging Orlando without them in the lineup is foolish. You go ask the General Board and it would massively favour Orlando.

And we were missing our starting SG and our really only big.

Wagner - 23/6/4 60TS%
Barrett - 19/5/4 60TS%

Why is Wagner missing relevant, but Barrett isn’t even mentioned?

Of course it matters that we're not at full strength... I just said that the players Orlando are missing are clearly better than the players the Raptors are missing. Im a massive RJ fan but in no way do you think theyre the same level of overall player lol. Then you have Suggs who is clearly better than Poeltl.

[YogurtProducer]

Orlando might not be a championship contender some said but they are definitely a level above us when healthy. Wagner has been their best player and Suggs is their engine... judging Orlando without them in the lineup is foolish. You go ask the General Board and it would massively favour Orlando.

And we were missing our starting SG and our really only big.

Wagner - 23/6/4 60TS%
Barrett - 19/5/4 60TS%

Why is Wagner missing relevant, but Barrett isn’t even mentioned?

Of course it matters that we're not at full strength... I just said that the players Orlando are missing are clearly better than the players the Raptors are missing. Im a massive RJ fan but in no way do you think theyre the same level of overall player lol. Then you have Suggs who is clearly better than Poeltl.

The gap between RJ+Poeltl and Wagner+Suggs is not nearly as big as you are making it out to be IMO. Especially when you consider importance to a team.

A healthy Poeltl does more for Toronto than Suggs does for Orlando, simply because our Poeltl replacement is a lot worse than Orlandos Suggs replacement. Suggs replacement is Black who is arguably not really a dropoff at all from Suggs lol. Whereas our Poeltl replacement is nothing and requires a complete overhaul of team philosophy.

[Tor_Raps]

And we were missing our starting SG and our really only big.

Wagner - 23/6/4 60TS%
Barrett - 19/5/4 60TS%

Why is Wagner missing relevant, but Barrett isn’t even mentioned?

Of course it matters that we're not at full strength... I just said that the players Orlando are missing are clearly better than the players the Raptors are missing. Im a massive RJ fan but in no way do you think theyre the same level of overall player lol. Then you have Suggs who is clearly better than Poeltl.

The gap between RJ+Poeltl and Wagner+Suggs is not nearly as big as you are making it out to be IMO. Especially when you consider importance to a team.

A healthy Poeltl does more for Toronto than Suggs does for Orlando, simply because our Poeltl replacement is a lot worse than Orlandos Suggs replacement. Suggs replacement is Black who is arguably not really a dropoff at all from Suggs lol. Whereas our Poeltl replacement is nothing and requires a complete overhaul of team philosophy.

What youre saying is part of why we're a flawed team and Orlando's a better team. Suggs is literally their engine and just on a different level than Poeltl who is just an average role player.

We will see how things play out over a full season once both teams get fully healthy in a few weeks. Hope youre right but id bet a lot that you're not lol.

[YogurtProducer]

Of course it matters that we're not at full strength... I just said that the players Orlando are missing are clearly better than the players the Raptors are missing. Im a massive RJ fan but in no way do you think theyre the same level of overall player lol. Then you have Suggs who is clearly better than Poeltl.

The gap between RJ+Poeltl and Wagner+Suggs is not nearly as big as you are making it out to be IMO. Especially when you consider importance to a team.

A healthy Poeltl does more for Toronto than Suggs does for Orlando, simply because our Poeltl replacement is a lot worse than Orlandos Suggs replacement. Suggs replacement is Black who is arguably not really a dropoff at all from Suggs lol. Whereas our Poeltl replacement is nothing and requires a complete overhaul of team philosophy.

What youre saying is part of why we're a flawed team and Orlando's a better team. Suggs is literally their engine and just on a different level than Poeltl who is just an average role player.

We will see how things play out over a full season once both teams get fully healthy in a few weeks. Hope youre right but id bet a lot that you're not lol.

Are they a better team? They are below us in the standings, and lost to us last night with both teams unhealthy. I am not denying Suggs > Poeltl, but Orlando is much more equipped to handle a Suggs absence than we are a Poeltl absence (and yet, we still are higher in the standings and we beat them).

Orlando being "better" than us is all just theory right now. This is a team that has won 47, and 41 games the last 2 years, and is on pace to win 45 this year. So why is Orlando given so much respect around here exactly?

Orlando is an entirely flawed roster, reminiscent of the 2023 Raptors with a bunch of good players who fit together like ****, and no true #1 option. Problem is, they also traded a boat load of picks to be mediocre. They will win 45-49 games, and maybe win a round health permitting. Sounds a lot like where Toronto sits.

[Boardbreaker]

7 offensive boards for CMBeast

Glad to see the nickname I coined is finally catching on

Did you start it? I just took it from Batman lol

[bluerap23]

7 offensive boards for CMBeast

Glad to see the nickname I coined is finally catching on

Did you start it? I just took it from Batman lol

Yeah - https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2469444&p=119984980&hilit=CM+Beast#p119984980

even made this with AI

[ConSarnit]

Do people realize that Shead's TS% is like 49%? That is dreadful especially for someone that doesn't have a specialized skill out there. IQ is way better and a significantly better fit in the lineup given his shooting ability. Wanting Shead to play over IQ is literally absurd. lol.

IQ hate is a bit overblown especially considering he was a big reason that they just beat the Warriors, 27 points and 5/10 from 3pt.....he just needs to be more consistent, don't want him to be a hot/cold player.

Moving Shead to starter makes sense if Raptors make a big trade to upgrade the center position...lets say they trade a IQ+Poeltl package. But then Raptors will need to fill the backup PG spot.

Any trade that ends up with Shead being our best PG isn’t a good trade for a serious team.

Big fan of Shead, but he’s an energy bench guard

A large contingent of this board wanted to punt FVV into the sun for his inefficient scoring and now they want to start a guy who is shooting 37% from the field.

Shead is not close to a starting level PG. I’d be surprised if he ever gets there based on his scoring woes. Fine player but thinking he can start is borderline crazy imo.