PG: BENCH SLOBS SHART THE COURT

[PushDaRock]

Never said that....I think you need multiple top picks to become a good team in the NBA unless you do luck into a Franchise superstar talent....

Me personally i think the better strat to gaining a legit winning product is playing the draft for multiple years with actually going for the highest pick possible since it takes more than just one talent to win...

ill point out the bright spots on our current roster (Ingram/Barnes/CMB) All come from top end draft picks.....Now does that mean you will get the best outcome always ....No but its a better strat imo than trying to build a team in the middle drafting in the 20s and pray you get steals like we did with Powell/Siakams of the world in the 20s...

For example if we played the 2025 draft a little better and got better odds you get a guy like Harper/Flagg/Edgecombe/Kon to pair with Barnes and then lets say you do that again and don't trade for Ingram and you keep that Pacers pick + your own pick in 2026 and draft one of Boozer/AJ/Peterson...

Now you have a core of One of Harper/Flagg/Edgecombe/Kon along with Barnes + One of the good kids in 2026 draft...

Now you have something to build around and have a much higher ceiling of a team imo than what we have atm....I never said it takes one draft either i think it takes multiple hits like the Warriors got with Curry/Klay & OKC did with Chet/Williams....

But also if you do not trust our drafting than this is all pointless and we will not amount to nothing in the end anyways...But yes its sheer odds and percentages that the higher you draft the better the player outcome and i feel the Raptors best chance at building a true winning team is through the draft than any other way because i also think trading for stars is harder now days than it was before....And im talking about real stars like the Kawhis of the world because these guys in recent years hand pick where they wanna go...

Yeah, you're living in fantasy land if you expect to pick top 4 multiple years. Even if you finish worst in the league, you still pick out of the top 4 about half the time.

Never said top 4 either you are putting words in my mouth here....I said you GO for the best odds possible because the higher your odds are the chances of you falling to lets say 9-10-11-12 is alot less possible the higher your odds are to begin with....And yes it is a lottery at the end of the day so you have a good enough chance to draft top 4 as every other team in the lottery does but the higher you are again the odds are better for you....

You can also find these high level talents outside of the top 4....Like i said the higher you pick better the outcome....So even getting 6th for example you can find higher level talents than you would in the 20s 2nd rounder.....Thats why CMB/Barnes look like the only young players with upside on our team because they were high picked prospect....are they franchise players no....But they are better than what we have....I think building up an asset based with players on that level while also giving yourself the Chance to get a legit game changing talent with a top pick if you get lucky is a better strat than what we are currently trying to do...

The strat we are currently trying to do i would say involves more luck than the way i am presenting to being a good team because i also think the better the talent you have the better the team you have and odds are you get better talent with higher picks...Now if you tell me we will draft 3 or 4 studs with 2nd rounders and picks in the 20s over the next 2 years who have all star or all nba potential i will be fine with that but odds are not in favor...

Because the example you used was picking top 4 in multiple years?

[Clutch0z24]

Yeah, you're living in fantasy land if you expect to pick top 4 multiple years. Even if you finish worst in the league, you still pick out of the top 4 about half the time.

Never said top 4 either you are putting words in my mouth here....I said you GO for the best odds possible because the higher your odds are the chances of you falling to lets say 9-10-11-12 is alot less possible the higher your odds are to begin with....And yes it is a lottery at the end of the day so you have a good enough chance to draft top 4 as every other team in the lottery does but the higher you are again the odds are better for you....

You can also find these high level talents outside of the top 4....Like i said the higher you pick better the outcome....So even getting 6th for example you can find higher level talents than you would in the 20s 2nd rounder.....Thats why CMB/Barnes look like the only young players with upside on our team because they were high picked prospect....are they franchise players no....But they are better than what we have....I think building up an asset based with players on that level while also giving yourself the Chance to get a legit game changing talent with a top pick if you get lucky is a better strat than what we are currently trying to do...

The strat we are currently trying to do i would say involves more luck than the way i am presenting to being a good team because i also think the better the talent you have the better the team you have and odds are you get better talent with higher picks...Now if you tell me we will draft 3 or 4 studs with 2nd rounders and picks in the 20s over the next 2 years who have all star or all nba potential i will be fine with that but odds are not in favor...

Because the example you used was picking top 4 in multiple years?

Well thats one example of how playing draft lottery the right way could build a team, But even if you draft outside of the top 4 the level of player/asset base you build up would have alot more upside than what you would get any other way....For example Wemby was the prize in his class but you also have Thompson twins Miller/Lively/Wallace who are fine players to add to your asset base....But yes if you do get lucky and get a top pick in the right draft that could potentially flip your whole franchise around like the Spurs with Wemby...

Luck plays a part of it but Luck also plays a part in the strat we are currently using id argue it would take even more luck with the way we are currently doing it because i think trading for superstar players in todays NBA is a harder task than it was 10 years ago...

[Los_29]

Never said top 4 either you are putting words in my mouth here....I said you GO for the best odds possible because the higher your odds are the chances of you falling to lets say 9-10-11-12 is alot less possible the higher your odds are to begin with....And yes it is a lottery at the end of the day so you have a good enough chance to draft top 4 as every other team in the lottery does but the higher you are again the odds are better for you....

You can also find these high level talents outside of the top 4....Like i said the higher you pick better the outcome....So even getting 6th for example you can find higher level talents than you would in the 20s 2nd rounder.....Thats why CMB/Barnes look like the only young players with upside on our team because they were high picked prospect....are they franchise players no....But they are better than what we have....I think building up an asset based with players on that level while also giving yourself the Chance to get a legit game changing talent with a top pick if you get lucky is a better strat than what we are currently trying to do...

The strat we are currently trying to do i would say involves more luck than the way i am presenting to being a good team because i also think the better the talent you have the better the team you have and odds are you get better talent with higher picks...Now if you tell me we will draft 3 or 4 studs with 2nd rounders and picks in the 20s over the next 2 years who have all star or all nba potential i will be fine with that but odds are not in favor...

Because the example you used was picking top 4 in multiple years?

Well thats one example of how playing draft lottery the right way could build a team, But even if you draft outside of the top 4 the level of player/asset base you build up would have alot more upside than what you would get any other way....For example Wemby was the prize in his class but you also have Thompson twins Miller/Lively/Wallace who are fine players to add to your asset base....But yes if you do get lucky and get a top pick in the right draft that could potentially flip your whole franchise around like the Spurs with Wemby...

Luck plays a part of it but Luck also plays a part in the strat we are currently using id argue it would take even more luck with the way we are currently doing it because i think trading for superstar players in todays NBA is a harder task than it was 10 years ago...

Lively has a lot of injury concerns and barely plays. I was a huge fan of Cason but he’s been very disappointing in the pros. I thought he would be a much better scorer. Right now he just looks like a good defensive player off the bench. Neither of those guys are moving the needle for us.

It’s fun to think about who we could’ve drafted but the reality is it’s not realistic. We look at teams like Orlando, Charlotte, Houston, NOP, OKC and many others and what do they have to show for it after years of tanking. None of these teams drafted a superstar despite spending so much time in the lottery.

Spurs treadmill for years and get Wemby then move up to get Castle and Harper. We actually had a better chance to move up than the Spurs did. Luck plays a huge role. OKC is only where they are at because Kawhi chose to go to LAC. It was arguably the worst trade in NBA history. And one that Presti didn’t even have to do anything. His team was treadmilling for years. He probably couldn’t believe his luck. He didn’t even have to negotiate.

[Tripod]

"Wemby was the prize in his class but you also have Thompson twins Miller/Lively/Wallace who are fine players to add to your asset base."

And if you picked Scoot, Coulibaly, Walker, Hendricks, Howard, Dick?

It's easy to build a team on paper where you always get just the hits, and not the misses.

[Clutch0z24]

Hornets must be a juggernaut with Kon, Miller, Salaun AND Ball.

Or you end up with Tatum/Brown, Shai/Chet/Williams (All lotto picks) , Wemby/Castle/Harper, MJ/Pippen, Magic/Worthy, Bird/McHale, Curry/Klay, Duncan Spurs, Ant Mans T-Wolves, Carter/TMac Raptors...

I mean yes you can look at all the bad examples and say that will be us but imagine every team doing that strat thought this way? Imagine the Spurs never even tried for Wemby and said "Nah we good with Yak/Vessell/Keldon....Reality was Spurs wanted Wemby way before his draft cycle and set themselves up best way to give themselves the best odds for it to become reality and it worked out for them by luck...

You can't point out failing teams with bad draft track records as well and say that is my data to disprove your way of team building....Reality is there are failing stories and also success stories when it comes to that strat to winning....Imo the Raptors best way is the draft because we are not a star players destination and never have been....So drafting a dynasty seems like the more logical approach from my point of view..

But we have also been one of the bad drafting teams the last few years as well so actually my strat would also be a bad one with this current front office in charge...

Also if you look at NBA history the teams that built winners through the draft had much more long lasting staying power with the teams they built than ones put together by trades As teams put together by drafting usually have longer spans of dominance than short lasting ones with trades...Thats mostly because a team has control over said player(s) for much longer (Usually an 8-9 year window with drafted players vs 2-3 yeaars with traded players)

[PushDaRock]

Hornets must be a juggernaut with Kon, Miller, Salaun AND Ball.

Or you end up with Tatum/Brown, Shai/Chet/Williams (All lotto picks) , Wemby/Castle/Harper, MJ/Pippen, Magic/Worthy, Bird/McHale, Curry/Klay, Duncan Spurs, Ant Mans T-Wolves, Carter/TMac Raptors...

I mean yes you can look at all the bad examples and say that will be us but imagine every team doing that strat thought this way? Imagine the Spurs never even tried for Wemby and said "Nah we good with Yak/Vessell/Keldon....Reality was Spurs wanted Wemby way before his draft cycle and set themselves up best way to give themselves the best odds for it to become reality and it worked out for them by luck...

You can't point out failing teams with bad draft track records as well and say that is my data to disprove your way of team building....Reality is there are failing stories and also success stories when it comes to that strat to winning....Imo the Raptors best way is the draft because we are not a star players destination and never have been....So drafting a dynasty seems like the more logical approach from my point of view..

But we have also been one of the bad drafting teams the last few years as well so actually my strat would also be a bad one with this current front office in charge...

Also if you look at NBA history the teams that built winners through the draft had much more long lasting staying power with the teams they built than ones put together by trades As teams put together by drafting usually have longer spans of dominance than short lasting ones with trades...Thats mostly because a team has control over said player(s) for much longer (Usually an 8-9 year window with drafted players vs 2-3 yeaars with traded players)

RJ/BI/Scottie/Bamba/Jak/CMB/Gradey/Ochai

Aren't you happy with all our lotto picks?

[Clutch0z24]

Hornets must be a juggernaut with Kon, Miller, Salaun AND Ball.

Or you end up with Tatum/Brown, Shai/Chet/Williams (All lotto picks) , Wemby/Castle/Harper, MJ/Pippen, Magic/Worthy, Bird/McHale, Curry/Klay, Duncan Spurs, Ant Mans T-Wolves, Carter/TMac Raptors...

I mean yes you can look at all the bad examples and say that will be us but imagine every team doing that strat thought this way? Imagine the Spurs never even tried for Wemby and said "Nah we good with Yak/Vessell/Keldon....Reality was Spurs wanted Wemby way before his draft cycle and set themselves up best way to give themselves the best odds for it to become reality and it worked out for them by luck...

You can't point out failing teams with bad draft track records as well and say that is my data to disprove your way of team building....Reality is there are failing stories and also success stories when it comes to that strat to winning....Imo the Raptors best way is the draft because we are not a star players destination and never have been....So drafting a dynasty seems like the more logical approach from my point of view..

But we have also been one of the bad drafting teams the last few years as well so actually my strat would also be a bad one with this current front office in charge...

Also if you look at NBA history the teams that built winners through the draft had much more long lasting staying power with the teams they built than ones put together by trades As teams put together by drafting usually have longer spans of dominance than short lasting ones with trades...Thats mostly because a team has control over said player(s) for much longer (Usually an 8-9 year window with drafted players vs 2-3 yeaars with traded players)

RJ/BI/Scottie/Bamba/Jak/CMB/Gradey/Ochai

Aren't you happy with all our lotto picks?

They don't fit on the court together....And we made some bad draft picks as well....Also actual drafting a team to make the pieces fit vs trading for a mish mash of players and hope it works is not a good way to do it....Ingram is the only one of that bunch that Fits well with Barnes "The franchise guy"...

And again you can't look at teams that made bad draft selections or bad trades at bad times like we did and say thats my data and that data is correct...Because imo we could have a total different outcome right now if we had a good front office the past few years Which we had one of the worst front offices in recent years resulting in this outcome...

If you don't trade for Yak and actually play the draft proper you end up with a better player than Gradey that draft cycle, You don't lose the pick in 2024 which would have gotten us Edey or Ware 2 bigs we could really use, And we also potentially end up with abetter pick than CMB at 9 cause we don't have Yak having his best year for us in a tanking year when we did not need him if we were actually tanking....

Also even if we end up with 9th we blundered that Pelicans 2026 FRP offer which would be a top 5 pick while we are a mid team we would have Pelicans tanking for us in the process...

I mean we made so many mistakes in the process to look at the players we have now and say "Are you not happy with it" is a silly way to look at it when right now if we did things correctly we have...

Barnes
Ingram
One of the Thompson twins, Miller, Cason Wallace
Edey or Ware
2026 Top 5 pick or a better player in that class since we would have been worse with no Yak that year in the tank season.

But instead we have Dick/Jakobe....Do you think these 2 were our first options in the draft them years? No....Its just these are the two that ended up falling to us in both drafts that were suppose to go higher....But if we had higher picks in both drafts we go with different players...Thats why draft position matters...

[PushDaRock]

Or you end up with Tatum/Brown, Shai/Chet/Williams (All lotto picks) , Wemby/Castle/Harper, MJ/Pippen, Magic/Worthy, Bird/McHale, Curry/Klay, Duncan Spurs, Ant Mans T-Wolves, Carter/TMac Raptors...

I mean yes you can look at all the bad examples and say that will be us but imagine every team doing that strat thought this way? Imagine the Spurs never even tried for Wemby and said "Nah we good with Yak/Vessell/Keldon....Reality was Spurs wanted Wemby way before his draft cycle and set themselves up best way to give themselves the best odds for it to become reality and it worked out for them by luck...

You can't point out failing teams with bad draft track records as well and say that is my data to disprove your way of team building....Reality is there are failing stories and also success stories when it comes to that strat to winning....Imo the Raptors best way is the draft because we are not a star players destination and never have been....So drafting a dynasty seems like the more logical approach from my point of view..

But we have also been one of the bad drafting teams the last few years as well so actually my strat would also be a bad one with this current front office in charge...

Also if you look at NBA history the teams that built winners through the draft had much more long lasting staying power with the teams they built than ones put together by trades As teams put together by drafting usually have longer spans of dominance than short lasting ones with trades...Thats mostly because a team has control over said player(s) for much longer (Usually an 8-9 year window with drafted players vs 2-3 yeaars with traded players)

RJ/BI/Scottie/Bamba/Jak/CMB/Gradey/Ochai

Aren't you happy with all our lotto picks?

They don't fit on the court together....And we made some bad draft picks as well....Also actual drafting a team to make the pieces fit vs trading for a mish mash of players and hope it works is not a good way to do it....Ingram is the only one of that bunch that Fits well with Barnes "The franchise guy"...

And again you can't look at teams that made bad draft selections or bad trades at bad times like we did and say thats my data and that data is correct...Because imo we could have a total different outcome right now if we had a good front office the past few years Which we had one of the worst front offices in recent years resulting in this outcome...

If you don't trade for Yak and actally play the draft proper you end up with a better player than Gradey that draft cycle, You don't lose the pick in 2024 which would have gotten us Edey or Ware 2 bigs we could really use, And we also potentially end up with abetter pick than CMB at 9 cause we don't have Yak having his best year for us in a tanking year when we did not need him if we were actually tanking....

Also even if we end up with 9th we blundered that Pelicans 2026 FRP offer which would be a top 5 pick while we are a mid team we would have Pelicans tanking for us in the process...

I mean we made so many mistakes in the process to look at the players we have now and say "Are you not happy with it" is a silly way to look at it when right now if we did things correctly we have...

Barnes
Ingram
One of the Thompson twins, Miller, Cason Wallace
Edey or Ware
2026 Top 5 pick or a better player in that class since we would have been worse with no Yak that year in the tank season.

But instead we have Dick/Jakobe....Do you think these 2 were our first options in the draft them years? No....Its just these are the two that ended up falling to us in both drafts that were suppose to go higher....But if we had higher picks in both drafts we go with different players...Thats why draft position matters...

Or you can just recognize this isn't even our final form without totally freaking out

[Clutch0z24]

RJ/BI/Scottie/Bamba/Jak/CMB/Gradey/Ochai

Aren't you happy with all our lotto picks?

They don't fit on the court together....And we made some bad draft picks as well....Also actual drafting a team to make the pieces fit vs trading for a mish mash of players and hope it works is not a good way to do it....Ingram is the only one of that bunch that Fits well with Barnes "The franchise guy"...

And again you can't look at teams that made bad draft selections or bad trades at bad times like we did and say thats my data and that data is correct...Because imo we could have a total different outcome right now if we had a good front office the past few years Which we had one of the worst front offices in recent years resulting in this outcome...

If you don't trade for Yak and actally play the draft proper you end up with a better player than Gradey that draft cycle, You don't lose the pick in 2024 which would have gotten us Edey or Ware 2 bigs we could really use, And we also potentially end up with abetter pick than CMB at 9 cause we don't have Yak having his best year for us in a tanking year when we did not need him if we were actually tanking....

Also even if we end up with 9th we blundered that Pelicans 2026 FRP offer which would be a top 5 pick while we are a mid team we would have Pelicans tanking for us in the process...

I mean we made so many mistakes in the process to look at the players we have now and say "Are you not happy with it" is a silly way to look at it when right now if we did things correctly we have...

Barnes
Ingram
One of the Thompson twins, Miller, Cason Wallace
Edey or Ware
2026 Top 5 pick or a better player in that class since we would have been worse with no Yak that year in the tank season.

But instead we have Dick/Jakobe....Do you think these 2 were our first options in the draft them years? No....Its just these are the two that ended up falling to us in both drafts that were suppose to go higher....But if we had higher picks in both drafts we go with different players...Thats why draft position matters...

Or you can just recognize this isn't even our final form without totally freaking out

Or i can call out how mid the team is and not have people like you giving 10000 excuses why its not?.....

I agree this isn't our final form nor should it be but i also do not see a path we get much better because

1.We don't have the young positive assets to make a go ahead trade
2.We don't have elite starters that other teams really want in a trade for an upgrade (No one wants IQ or Yak they are bad contracts right now and you have to give up assets just to get off them)
3.If you want to trade guys like Barnes/Ingram for another star player you are not deep enough to be taken serious in that situation so you end up just being another Bucks situation congrats...
4. We won't be getting high picks in the draft so we most likely end up with more Mogbos, Dick type of drafted players than we would Siakam/OG types of players with the draft position we will prolly be in.

So that being said i don't see a way of really building the type of team or ever getting to a "Final form" you are suggesting we could get too....Which is why i said i ultimatly see this Barnes era iteration of the Raptors ultimatly ending with us trading for a flawed star like player (Ball/Sabonis/Trae/AD/Morant) style player, Topping out as a first or second round exit for a little bit and having to tank and trade Barnes away because he will be a free agent soon at that point and starting over....

I don't think im crazy to have that opinion on this team looking at the lack of young prospects, Bad contracts, and lack of first option type of players...

[PushDaRock]

They don't fit on the court together....And we made some bad draft picks as well....Also actual drafting a team to make the pieces fit vs trading for a mish mash of players and hope it works is not a good way to do it....Ingram is the only one of that bunch that Fits well with Barnes "The franchise guy"...

And again you can't look at teams that made bad draft selections or bad trades at bad times like we did and say thats my data and that data is correct...Because imo we could have a total different outcome right now if we had a good front office the past few years Which we had one of the worst front offices in recent years resulting in this outcome...

If you don't trade for Yak and actally play the draft proper you end up with a better player than Gradey that draft cycle, You don't lose the pick in 2024 which would have gotten us Edey or Ware 2 bigs we could really use, And we also potentially end up with abetter pick than CMB at 9 cause we don't have Yak having his best year for us in a tanking year when we did not need him if we were actually tanking....

Also even if we end up with 9th we blundered that Pelicans 2026 FRP offer which would be a top 5 pick while we are a mid team we would have Pelicans tanking for us in the process...

I mean we made so many mistakes in the process to look at the players we have now and say "Are you not happy with it" is a silly way to look at it when right now if we did things correctly we have...

Barnes
Ingram
One of the Thompson twins, Miller, Cason Wallace
Edey or Ware
2026 Top 5 pick or a better player in that class since we would have been worse with no Yak that year in the tank season.

But instead we have Dick/Jakobe....Do you think these 2 were our first options in the draft them years? No....Its just these are the two that ended up falling to us in both drafts that were suppose to go higher....But if we had higher picks in both drafts we go with different players...Thats why draft position matters...

Or you can just recognize this isn't even our final form without totally freaking out

Or i can call out how mid the team is and not have people like you giving 10000 excuses why its not?.....

I agree this isn't our final form nor should it be but i also do not see a path we get much better because

1.We don't have the young positive assets to make a go ahead trade
2.We don't have elite starters that other teams really want in a trade for an upgrade (No one wants IQ or Yak they are bad contracts right now and you have to give up assets just to get off them)
3.If you want to trade guys like Barnes/Ingram for another star player you are not deep enough to be taken serious in that situation so you end up just being another Bucks situation congrats...
4. We won't be getting high picks in the draft so we most likely end up with more Mogbos, Dick type of drafted players than we would Siakam/OG types of players with the draft position we will prolly be in.

So that being said i don't see a way of really building the type of team or ever getting to a "Final form" you are suggesting we could get too....Which is why i said i ultimatly see this Barnes era iteration of the Raptors ultimatly ending with us trading for a flawed star like player (Ball/Sabonis/Trae/AD/Morant) style player, Topping out as a first or second round exit for a little bit and having to tank and trade Barnes away because he will be a free agent soon at that point and starting over....

I don't think im crazy to have that opinion on this team looking at the lack of young prospects, Bad contracts, and lack of first option type of players...

Who said the team isn't mid? I'm just not freaking out about it because it's the natural progression from being really bad to mid and then taking the next step after that which is obviously the most difficult. I'll freak out about being stuck in purgatory when we're actually there. For now, I'll enjoy the positives that come with not totally sucking every night.

[Los_29]

Hornets must be a juggernaut with Kon, Miller, Salaun AND Ball.

Or you end up with Tatum/Brown, Shai/Chet/Williams (All lotto picks) , Wemby/Castle/Harper, MJ/Pippen, Magic/Worthy, Bird/McHale, Curry/Klay, Duncan Spurs, Ant Mans T-Wolves, Carter/TMac Raptors...

I mean yes you can look at all the bad examples and say that will be us but imagine every team doing that strat thought this way? Imagine the Spurs never even tried for Wemby and said "Nah we good with Yak/Vessell/Keldon....Reality was Spurs wanted Wemby way before his draft cycle and set themselves up best way to give themselves the best odds for it to become reality and it worked out for them by luck...

You can't point out failing teams with bad draft track records as well and say that is my data to disprove your way of team building....Reality is there are failing stories and also success stories when it comes to that strat to winning....Imo the Raptors best way is the draft because we are not a star players destination and never have been....So drafting a dynasty seems like the more logical approach from my point of view..

But we have also been one of the bad drafting teams the last few years as well so actually my strat would also be a bad one with this current front office in charge...

Also if you look at NBA history the teams that built winners through the draft had much more long lasting staying power with the teams they built than ones put together by trades As teams put together by drafting usually have longer spans of dominance than short lasting ones with trades...Thats mostly because a team has control over said player(s) for much longer (Usually an 8-9 year window with drafted players vs 2-3 yeaars with traded players)

Shai was not drafted by the Thunder. Tatum/Brown were from the Nets trade. Celtics never tanked for those players.

Spurs were actually a horrid treadmill team for half a decade. They didn’t want to re-sign Murray so they traded him away. They had lost Demar the previous season. They got lucky with Wemby. It helped people forget about how bad they were managed before that. They then got lucky by moving up in the last two drafts.

Your other examples are from like 40 years ago.

Curry/Klay/Dray. Curry and Klay were drafted late in the lottery. Dray was a 2nd rounder. VC/T-Mac? Really? That desperate huh? lol.

[Clutch0z24]

Hornets must be a juggernaut with Kon, Miller, Salaun AND Ball.

Or you end up with Tatum/Brown, Shai/Chet/Williams (All lotto picks) , Wemby/Castle/Harper, MJ/Pippen, Magic/Worthy, Bird/McHale, Curry/Klay, Duncan Spurs, Ant Mans T-Wolves, Carter/TMac Raptors...

I mean yes you can look at all the bad examples and say that will be us but imagine every team doing that strat thought this way? Imagine the Spurs never even tried for Wemby and said "Nah we good with Yak/Vessell/Keldon....Reality was Spurs wanted Wemby way before his draft cycle and set themselves up best way to give themselves the best odds for it to become reality and it worked out for them by luck...

You can't point out failing teams with bad draft track records as well and say that is my data to disprove your way of team building....Reality is there are failing stories and also success stories when it comes to that strat to winning....Imo the Raptors best way is the draft because we are not a star players destination and never have been....So drafting a dynasty seems like the more logical approach from my point of view..

But we have also been one of the bad drafting teams the last few years as well so actually my strat would also be a bad one with this current front office in charge...

Also if you look at NBA history the teams that built winners through the draft had much more long lasting staying power with the teams they built than ones put together by trades As teams put together by drafting usually have longer spans of dominance than short lasting ones with trades...Thats mostly because a team has control over said player(s) for much longer (Usually an 8-9 year window with drafted players vs 2-3 yeaars with traded players)

Shai was not drafted by the Thunder. Tatum/Brown were from the Nets trade. Celtics never tanked for those players.

Spurs were actually a horrid treadmill team for half a decade. They didn’t want to re-sign Murray so they traded him away. They had lost Demar the previous season. They got lucky with Wemby. It helped people forget about how bad they were managed before that. They then got lucky by moving up in the last two drafts.

Your other examples are from like 40 years ago.

Curry/Klay/Dray. Curry and Klay were drafted late in the lottery. Dray was a 2nd rounder. VC/T-Mac? Really? That desperate huh? lol.

Are you that dense? ....Im not talking about how these players ended up on said team....Regardless how they ended up on said team they are still either high end draft picks or lottery picks, last time i checked 11th pick is still a lottery pick?......

Tatum/Brown were both main reasons why the Celtics won their title yes or no? Yes....They are both top 5 picks yes or no? Yes....Shai is a lotto pick yes or no? Yes? , Do OKC need all 3 Shai, Chet, Williams who are all Lotto picks? Yes they need them all to be a dynasty they are becoming, The rest of the examples are teams that were built through the draft that had success doing it that way....Can add the Thompson Pistons in there as well....

I don't give a damn if a team traded for said picks...What it took for these teams to be successfull was to add players within the top parts of the draft to be successfull as a team and potential dynasties....

Until the Raptors make savy trades like they could have done with the 9th pick funny in itself and get future top draft picks in trades than you would have a point....But Bobby does not seem like a savy trader like the OKC have been....(Currently the championship favorite with 2 top picks in 2026 draft)

And you are actually a dumbass if you think Carter/T-Mac have they stayed together would not have been one of the best teams in the NBA....Rookie scale contracts are not like they used to be in that era...Teams have control of their young guys for 8-9 years now...So if we drafted a Carter/T-Mac level duo we have them for many years under our control...So saying thats a deseperate thing to bring up is foolish with the potential a duo like that would have...Both coming from high draft picks btw...

High end talent % come from good draft selections no arguing that....If you are then you don't look at the odds of it much or have no idea what you are talking about....You still have to be a bad team to pick 7th where curry got picked even 11th where Klay got picked....You still have to have a bad record ...GSW Tanked them years they got Curry/Klay....We got the 9th pick last year and we were a 30 win team....So yes higher the lottery pick the better outcome but 7th pick could still end up with a franchise level player if you have a good drafting front office...

But yes there is also luck and skill drafting involved in that strat just like any other strat has even the one you advocate for and what we are trying to do right now involves luck and Savy smart trades....So far Bobby Blundered one trade on the table we will see what he does next this trade deadline...But we also have very minimal trade assets to play with to upgrade significantly anyways...

[Axe Dragon]

This season reminds me of the 2014-2015 season in that I think this team will show their true colours over the second half of the season.

That's the one where Lou Williams was dating two girls at the same time, our end of quarter offense was a Lou Williams iso every time because be hit one early in the season. Amir Johnson started dating a friend of the Lou will by girls, they started hot the. Played .500 ball for months heading into the playoffs, to become the first team to ever get swept when having home court advantage in the playoffs.

After which, all of coach Casey's assistants were fired and new ones hired by the front office, rather than just pounding his rock right out the door

Is this when Nurse joined?

Axe


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[basketballto]

Or you end up with Tatum/Brown, Shai/Chet/Williams (All lotto picks) , Wemby/Castle/Harper, MJ/Pippen, Magic/Worthy, Bird/McHale, Curry/Klay, Duncan Spurs, Ant Mans T-Wolves, Carter/TMac Raptors...

I mean yes you can look at all the bad examples and say that will be us but imagine every team doing that strat thought this way? Imagine the Spurs never even tried for Wemby and said "Nah we good with Yak/Vessell/Keldon....Reality was Spurs wanted Wemby way before his draft cycle and set themselves up best way to give themselves the best odds for it to become reality and it worked out for them by luck...

You can't point out failing teams with bad draft track records as well and say that is my data to disprove your way of team building....Reality is there are failing stories and also success stories when it comes to that strat to winning....Imo the Raptors best way is the draft because we are not a star players destination and never have been....So drafting a dynasty seems like the more logical approach from my point of view..

But we have also been one of the bad drafting teams the last few years as well so actually my strat would also be a bad one with this current front office in charge...

Also if you look at NBA history the teams that built winners through the draft had much more long lasting staying power with the teams they built than ones put together by trades As teams put together by drafting usually have longer spans of dominance than short lasting ones with trades...Thats mostly because a team has control over said player(s) for much longer (Usually an 8-9 year window with drafted players vs 2-3 yeaars with traded players)

Shai was not drafted by the Thunder. Tatum/Brown were from the Nets trade. Celtics never tanked for those players.

Spurs were actually a horrid treadmill team for half a decade. They didn’t want to re-sign Murray so they traded him away. They had lost Demar the previous season. They got lucky with Wemby. It helped people forget about how bad they were managed before that. They then got lucky by moving up in the last two drafts.

Your other examples are from like 40 years ago.

Curry/Klay/Dray. Curry and Klay were drafted late in the lottery. Dray was a 2nd rounder. VC/T-Mac? Really? That desperate huh? lol.

Are you that dense? ....Im not talking about how these players ended up on said team....Regardless how they ended up on said team they are still either high end draft picks or lottery picks, last time i checked 11th pick is still a lottery pick?......

Tatum/Brown were both main reasons why the Celtics won their title yes or no? Yes....They are both top 5 picks yes or no? Yes....Shai is a lotto pick yes or no? Yes? , Do OKC need all 3 Shai, Chet, Williams who are all Lotto picks? Yes they need them all to be a dynasty they are becoming, The rest of the examples are teams that were built through the draft that had success doing it that way....Can add the Thompson Pistons in there as well....

I don't give a damn if a team traded for said picks...What it took for these teams to be successfull was to add players within the top parts of the draft to be successfull as a team and potential dynasties....

Until the Raptors make savy trades like they could have done with the 9th pick funny in itself and get future top draft picks in trades than you would have a point....But Bobby does not seem like a savy trader like the OKC have been....(Currently the championship favorite with 2 top picks in 2026 draft)

And you are actually a dumbass if you think Carter/T-Mac have they stayed together would not have been one of the best teams in the NBA....Rookie scale contracts are not like they used to be in that era...Teams have control of their young guys for 8-9 years now...So if we drafted a Carter/T-Mac level duo we have them for many years under our control...So saying thats a deseperate thing to bring up is foolish with the potential a duo like that would have...Both coming from high draft picks btw...

High end talent % come from good draft selections no arguing that....If you are then you don't look at the odds of it much or have no idea what you are talking about....You still have to be a bad team to pick 7th where curry got picked even 11th where Klay got picked....You still have to have a bad record ...GSW Tanked them years they got Curry/Klay....We got the 9th pick last year and we were a 30 win team....So yes higher the lottery pick the better outcome but 7th pick could still end up with a franchise level player if you have a good drafting front office...

But yes there is also luck and skill drafting involved in that strat just like any other strat has even the one you advocate for and what we are trying to do right now involves luck and Savy smart trades....So far Bobby Blundered one trade on the table we will see what he does next this trade deadline...But we also have very minimal trade assets to play with to upgrade significantly anyways...

Carter/T-Mac never played together for 9 years because the team was horrible enough to finish so low season after season.

The Raptors have a lot of lottery picks Jak, Scotty, RJ, BI, Gradey, etc. But the Raptors biggest success had Pascal 29, OJ at 19/20, Fred not drafted or Lowry at 24.

Drafting high can work out, picking low can work out. We can get former high picks through trades.


Why we didn't trade for the picks or pick Queen ourselves didn't make sense for Toronto or the other teams selecting after us.

[Clutch0z24]

Shai was not drafted by the Thunder. Tatum/Brown were from the Nets trade. Celtics never tanked for those players.

Spurs were actually a horrid treadmill team for half a decade. They didn’t want to re-sign Murray so they traded him away. They had lost Demar the previous season. They got lucky with Wemby. It helped people forget about how bad they were managed before that. They then got lucky by moving up in the last two drafts.

Your other examples are from like 40 years ago.

Curry/Klay/Dray. Curry and Klay were drafted late in the lottery. Dray was a 2nd rounder. VC/T-Mac? Really? That desperate huh? lol.

Are you that dense? ....Im not talking about how these players ended up on said team....Regardless how they ended up on said team they are still either high end draft picks or lottery picks, last time i checked 11th pick is still a lottery pick?......

Tatum/Brown were both main reasons why the Celtics won their title yes or no? Yes....They are both top 5 picks yes or no? Yes....Shai is a lotto pick yes or no? Yes? , Do OKC need all 3 Shai, Chet, Williams who are all Lotto picks? Yes they need them all to be a dynasty they are becoming, The rest of the examples are teams that were built through the draft that had success doing it that way....Can add the Thompson Pistons in there as well....

I don't give a damn if a team traded for said picks...What it took for these teams to be successfull was to add players within the top parts of the draft to be successfull as a team and potential dynasties....

Until the Raptors make savy trades like they could have done with the 9th pick funny in itself and get future top draft picks in trades than you would have a point....But Bobby does not seem like a savy trader like the OKC have been....(Currently the championship favorite with 2 top picks in 2026 draft)

And you are actually a dumbass if you think Carter/T-Mac have they stayed together would not have been one of the best teams in the NBA....Rookie scale contracts are not like they used to be in that era...Teams have control of their young guys for 8-9 years now...So if we drafted a Carter/T-Mac level duo we have them for many years under our control...So saying thats a deseperate thing to bring up is foolish with the potential a duo like that would have...Both coming from high draft picks btw...

High end talent % come from good draft selections no arguing that....If you are then you don't look at the odds of it much or have no idea what you are talking about....You still have to be a bad team to pick 7th where curry got picked even 11th where Klay got picked....You still have to have a bad record ...GSW Tanked them years they got Curry/Klay....We got the 9th pick last year and we were a 30 win team....So yes higher the lottery pick the better outcome but 7th pick could still end up with a franchise level player if you have a good drafting front office...

But yes there is also luck and skill drafting involved in that strat just like any other strat has even the one you advocate for and what we are trying to do right now involves luck and Savy smart trades....So far Bobby Blundered one trade on the table we will see what he does next this trade deadline...But we also have very minimal trade assets to play with to upgrade significantly anyways...

Carter/T-Mac never played together for 9 years because the team was horrible enough to finish so low season after season.

The Raptors have a lot of lottery picks Jak, Scotty, RJ, BI, Gradey, etc. But the Raptors biggest success had Pascal 29, OJ at 19/20, Fred not drafted or Lowry at 24.

Drafting high can work out, picking low can work out. We can get former high picks through trades.


Why we didn't trade for the picks or pick Queen ourselves didn't make sense for Toronto or the other teams selecting after us.

No you are wrong about that....Carter/T-Mac didn't play 9 years because back then players rookie contracts were different....

3 year control instead of 4 now, UFA, Back then Raptors could not match any offer T-Mac got Which Magic offered a max deal, The RFA for players coming off rookie deals came into play the year after to help teams keep their rookies basically because of the T-Mac Magic deal...

So yes while T-Mac wanted to have his own team and be a star in his hometown it would be much more unrealistic for that to happen in todays NBA than it was before it was much easier for teams to lose control of their drafted rookies now a team holds their rookies for at least 8 to 9 years because they can offer the most money to them...

So you are saying CMB is more valuble than a unprotected top 5 2026 draft pick?....Not doing that trade with the Pelicans when it was offered was a blunder on Bobbys part and thats why i am saying Bobby does not have the savy trades like the OKC does to make moves to put us over the top...

Drafting low like we have been for many years results in players like Dick/Jakobe alot more of the times than it does OG/Siakam.....And if you want to get players through trades you need the assets to do so....Dick/Jakobe/Mogbo/Shead are not assets that will get you much of anything in trades...We do not have trade assets atm outside of Barnes/CMB/Draft picks.....Barrett/Ingram im not sure how much value they have league wide, and the rest are either negative assets or not good enough young good prospects for them to hold value...

Playing the trade game unless we magically draft an OG or Siakam in the next 2 draft cycles will be hard because we lack a positive asset base outside of Barnes/CMB And maybe Ingram (Not sure how much value he really has though since we got him on the cheap ourselves)

[tsherkin]

I think we can agree he wasn’t a quality rotation piece but rather a good offensive player. Not great.

I don't see those as mutually exclusive phrases, to be honest.

[Axe Dragon]

Hornets must be a juggernaut with Kon, Miller, Salaun AND Ball.

Forget the Hornets, watch out for the Wizards.

Axe


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Tha Cynic]

Never said top 4 either you are putting words in my mouth here....I said you GO for the best odds possible because the higher your odds are the chances of you falling to lets say 9-10-11-12 is alot less possible the higher your odds are to begin with....And yes it is a lottery at the end of the day so you have a good enough chance to draft top 4 as every other team in the lottery does but the higher you are again the odds are better for you....

You can also find these high level talents outside of the top 4....Like i said the higher you pick better the outcome....So even getting 6th for example you can find higher level talents than you would in the 20s 2nd rounder.....Thats why CMB/Barnes look like the only young players with upside on our team because they were high picked prospect....are they franchise players no....But they are better than what we have....I think building up an asset based with players on that level while also giving yourself the Chance to get a legit game changing talent with a top pick if you get lucky is a better strat than what we are currently trying to do...

The strat we are currently trying to do i would say involves more luck than the way i am presenting to being a good team because i also think the better the talent you have the better the team you have and odds are you get better talent with higher picks...Now if you tell me we will draft 3 or 4 studs with 2nd rounders and picks in the 20s over the next 2 years who have all star or all nba potential i will be fine with that but odds are not in favor...

Because the example you used was picking top 4 in multiple years?

Well thats one example of how playing draft lottery the right way could build a team, But even if you draft outside of the top 4 the level of player/asset base you build up would have alot more upside than what you would get any other way....For example Wemby was the prize in his class but you also have Thompson twins Miller/Lively/Wallace who are fine players to add to your asset base....But yes if you do get lucky and get a top pick in the right draft that could potentially flip your whole franchise around like the Spurs with Wemby...

Luck plays a part of it but Luck also plays a part in the strat we are currently using id argue it would take even more luck with the way we are currently doing it because i think trading for superstar players in todays NBA is a harder task than it was 10 years ago...

Okay so basically no strategy and just lose every year and hope for luck.

Who’s watching this team during this time while they pray they end up with franchise changing talent on one night after a 82 game season of trying to lose? You?

What happens if they don’t get that pick or the player doesn’t become an elite talent? Tank agin? Rise, repeat?

Do you realize how many years you have to do this for and hope you get lucky?

[Tha Cynic]

Hornets must be a juggernaut with Kon, Miller, Salaun AND Ball.

Or you end up with Tatum/Brown, Shai/Chet/Williams (All lotto picks) , Wemby/Castle/Harper, MJ/Pippen, Magic/Worthy, Bird/McHale, Curry/Klay, Duncan Spurs, Ant Mans T-Wolves, Carter/TMac Raptors...

I mean yes you can look at all the bad examples and say that will be us but imagine every team doing that strat thought this way? Imagine the Spurs never even tried for Wemby and said "Nah we good with Yak/Vessell/Keldon....Reality was Spurs wanted Wemby way before his draft cycle and set themselves up best way to give themselves the best odds for it to become reality and it worked out for them by luck...

You can't point out failing teams with bad draft track records as well and say that is my data to disprove your way of team building....Reality is there are failing stories and also success stories when it comes to that strat to winning....Imo the Raptors best way is the draft because we are not a star players destination and never have been....So drafting a dynasty seems like the more logical approach from my point of view..

But we have also been one of the bad drafting teams the last few years as well so actually my strat would also be a bad one with this current front office in charge...

Also if you look at NBA history the teams that built winners through the draft had much more long lasting staying power with the teams they built than ones put together by trades As teams put together by drafting usually have longer spans of dominance than short lasting ones with trades...Thats mostly because a team has control over said player(s) for much longer (Usually an 8-9 year window with drafted players vs 2-3 yeaars with traded players)

Tatum and Brown were draft picks they traded for.

Shai and Williams were both due to the worst trade in NBA history made by the Clippers - even worse than the Doncic trade.

And then you threw some random teams from decades ago?

wtf?

How long is this tank going for that you have to use example that span decades?

Tanking is fine when something happens that season that forces you to make a decision (The Spurs example with Duncan). You don’t go into a season thinking about tanking for multiple seasons.

[ConSarnit]

Or you end up with Tatum/Brown, Shai/Chet/Williams (All lotto picks) , Wemby/Castle/Harper, MJ/Pippen, Magic/Worthy, Bird/McHale, Curry/Klay, Duncan Spurs, Ant Mans T-Wolves, Carter/TMac Raptors...

I mean yes you can look at all the bad examples and say that will be us but imagine every team doing that strat thought this way? Imagine the Spurs never even tried for Wemby and said "Nah we good with Yak/Vessell/Keldon....Reality was Spurs wanted Wemby way before his draft cycle and set themselves up best way to give themselves the best odds for it to become reality and it worked out for them by luck...

You can't point out failing teams with bad draft track records as well and say that is my data to disprove your way of team building....Reality is there are failing stories and also success stories when it comes to that strat to winning....Imo the Raptors best way is the draft because we are not a star players destination and never have been....So drafting a dynasty seems like the more logical approach from my point of view..

But we have also been one of the bad drafting teams the last few years as well so actually my strat would also be a bad one with this current front office in charge...

Also if you look at NBA history the teams that built winners through the draft had much more long lasting staying power with the teams they built than ones put together by trades As teams put together by drafting usually have longer spans of dominance than short lasting ones with trades...Thats mostly because a team has control over said player(s) for much longer (Usually an 8-9 year window with drafted players vs 2-3 yeaars with traded players)

Shai was not drafted by the Thunder. Tatum/Brown were from the Nets trade. Celtics never tanked for those players.

Spurs were actually a horrid treadmill team for half a decade. They didn’t want to re-sign Murray so they traded him away. They had lost Demar the previous season. They got lucky with Wemby. It helped people forget about how bad they were managed before that. They then got lucky by moving up in the last two drafts.

Your other examples are from like 40 years ago.

Curry/Klay/Dray. Curry and Klay were drafted late in the lottery. Dray was a 2nd rounder. VC/T-Mac? Really? That desperate huh? lol.

Are you that dense? ....Im not talking about how these players ended up on said team....Regardless how they ended up on said team they are still either high end draft picks or lottery picks, last time i checked 11th pick is still a lottery pick?......

Tatum/Brown were both main reasons why the Celtics won their title yes or no? Yes....They are both top 5 picks yes or no? Yes....Shai is a lotto pick yes or no? Yes? , Do OKC need all 3 Shai, Chet, Williams who are all Lotto picks? Yes they need them all to be a dynasty they are becoming, The rest of the examples are teams that were built through the draft that had success doing it that way....Can add the Thompson Pistons in there as well....

I don't give a damn if a team traded for said picks...What it took for these teams to be successfull was to add players within the top parts of the draft to be successfull as a team and potential dynasties....

Until the Raptors make savy trades like they could have done with the 9th pick funny in itself and get future top draft picks in trades than you would have a point....But Bobby does not seem like a savy trader like the OKC have been....(Currently the championship favorite with 2 top picks in 2026 draft)

And you are actually a dumbass if you think Carter/T-Mac have they stayed together would not have been one of the best teams in the NBA....Rookie scale contracts are not like they used to be in that era...Teams have control of their young guys for 8-9 years now...So if we drafted a Carter/T-Mac level duo we have them for many years under our control...So saying thats a deseperate thing to bring up is foolish with the potential a duo like that would have...Both coming from high draft picks btw...

High end talent % come from good draft selections no arguing that....If you are then you don't look at the odds of it much or have no idea what you are talking about....You still have to be a bad team to pick 7th where curry got picked even 11th where Klay got picked....You still have to have a bad record ...GSW Tanked them years they got Curry/Klay....We got the 9th pick last year and we were a 30 win team....So yes higher the lottery pick the better outcome but 7th pick could still end up with a franchise level player if you have a good drafting front office...

But yes there is also luck and skill drafting involved in that strat just like any other strat has even the one you advocate for and what we are trying to do right now involves luck and Savy smart trades....So far Bobby Blundered one trade on the table we will see what he does next this trade deadline...But we also have very minimal trade assets to play with to upgrade significantly anyways...

Some posters will never admit that tanking works. They’ll jump through 1000 hoops before ever admitting it might be a valid rebuilding method. Los was arguing the other day that Detroit’s success “isn’t sustainable long term” even though they are on pace for 60 wins and their 2 best players are under 25. If they won’t admit that maybe, just maybe, tanking helped DET then they won’t ever admit it.

Part of successful tanking is tearing down the team a year early and not a year too late (see: us and our returns for Siakam, OG and FVV). Teams like BOS sold early on KG/Pierce and got surplus draft capital to acquire Tatum and Brown. OKC sold early on PG3 and got SGA and JDub. HOU traded for Durant using excess draft capital. Acquiring surplus draft capital is part of a successful tanking strategy. The Sengun and Duren picks were acquired using excess draft capital from the original tear down. These are the types of swings you can take if you build up your coffers.

Tanking is no longer the single branch strategy posters like Los treats it as. It’s not just purposeful losing with only your own picks. It’s now about getting multiple bites at the apple to improve your overall drafting odds (or to use those surplus assets to acquire help).

The majority of the current best teams in the league engaged in some form of aggressive tanking yet we still have posters who refuse to admit it might be a realistic way to build a team.