PG: BENCH SLOBS SHART THE COURT

[Clutch0z24]

Odd...no mention of Warriors high picks Weisman and Kuminga

Oh right, we only mention high pick successes

Drafting right, Scouting, Front office management is a big part of the process....Raptors did once have elite drafting which formulated the success we once had in trades because we had positive young assets to trade, as well as progress in our franchise...But lately you might be right....This current front office is prolly not going to make the right draft selections for that team building strat to be successfull for us even if we tried it...

Warriors could of had LaMelo/Hailiburton, Franz/Sengun if they drafted correctly.

Just like the Timberwolves in 09 could of drafted Curry/DeRozan instead they got Rubio/Flynn....

No one said making the right picks don't matter with draft selections and yes you are not going to hit on all picks....But if you have a good drafting, good scouting front office you have a better chance the higher you draft than not....Its just a numbers game at the end of the day and having a higher pick will always result in better results, Having a good front office vs a bad front office is also part of the game...Which could make or break you in the process...

You maybe right though because i do not trust Bobbys drafting game at all.

[LoveMyRaps]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=PSy3Ch7pvG4ybe2MpvWFcw


This is insanely unacceptable. 12min and all you got was a turnover?

Bruh. We need to move on.

relax, he had 2 missed shots as well

That's 2 ORO created

Offensive Rebound Opportunities

Too bad we had our only 7footer resting on the bench, so Dick's valiant effort to create those 2 ORO went to waste.
Signed Bamba for the vibes.

[Los_29]

Piston has not been tanking for 15 years. They torn it down beginning 2019/2020 and had 5 tanking season in a row. Then last two season things started upswinging for them.

Pistons are actually the worst example against tanking. They literally had an all time bad losing streak 2 seasons ago and are now the best team in the East primarily driven by their young talent that they drafted from doing a proper rebuild. The idea that tanking means a team is going to suck forever is such nonsense I can’t believe people still believe it

I mean the Pistons added Beasley (2nd in 6MOY voting and played all 82 games while averaging 28 MPG), Harris (averaged 14/6/2 while playing 73 games as the starting PF/SF) and THJ (37% on 6 3FGA per game while playing 77 games as the starting SG) in the 2024 offseason which largely contributed to their 30-win increase last season. While they are off to a very good start this season and Duren has made a noticeable jump while Cade has also been playing at an All-NBA level, they have again got pretty big contributions from some newly acquired players (Robinson, Green and LeVert). It’s not just because they tanked for half a decade and were terrible for the majority of the 2010s before that they are at the top of the East now.

It’s hilarious seeing the Pistons now being mentioned as the biggest success story. Used to be the Thunder when everyone thought they’d draft 4-5 superstars with all their picks. Then it was the Magic and Rockets. Now it’s the Pistons despite making excuses year after year for why their tank wasn’t working (bad luck in the draft, bad management).

They’ve drafted Cade, Ivey, Duren (late lottery), Ausar and Holland in the lottery. That’s a very average haul considering the point of being in the top 5 is to draft superstars. Or at least that’s what we’ve been told the past 5 years on here. Pistons actually had to go out and sign veteran players in order to become a better team.

This forum would be having a meltdown if we came out of a 7 year rebuild with that core. I don’t care what their record is. Cleveland also had a tremendous record last year and we saw what they did in the playoffs and we see what they are doing now in the regular season. Knicks will beat the Pistons in the playoffs and that is a team that were on the treadmill for years and did what you’re not supposed to do and that is continue to add veteran pieces instead of tear it all down.

[Los_29]

Or you end up with Tatum/Brown, Shai/Chet/Williams (All lotto picks) , Wemby/Castle/Harper, MJ/Pippen, Magic/Worthy, Bird/McHale, Curry/Klay, Duncan Spurs, Ant Mans T-Wolves, Carter/TMac Raptors...

I mean yes you can look at all the bad examples and say that will be us but imagine every team doing that strat thought this way? Imagine the Spurs never even tried for Wemby and said "Nah we good with Yak/Vessell/Keldon....Reality was Spurs wanted Wemby way before his draft cycle and set themselves up best way to give themselves the best odds for it to become reality and it worked out for them by luck...

You can't point out failing teams with bad draft track records as well and say that is my data to disprove your way of team building....Reality is there are failing stories and also success stories when it comes to that strat to winning....Imo the Raptors best way is the draft because we are not a star players destination and never have been....So drafting a dynasty seems like the more logical approach from my point of view..

But we have also been one of the bad drafting teams the last few years as well so actually my strat would also be a bad one with this current front office in charge...

Also if you look at NBA history the teams that built winners through the draft had much more long lasting staying power with the teams they built than ones put together by trades As teams put together by drafting usually have longer spans of dominance than short lasting ones with trades...Thats mostly because a team has control over said player(s) for much longer (Usually an 8-9 year window with drafted players vs 2-3 yeaars with traded players)

Tatum and Brown were draft picks they traded for.

Shai and Williams were both due to the worst trade in NBA history made by the Clippers - even worse than the Doncic trade.

And then you threw some random teams from decades ago?

wtf?

How long is this tank going for that you have to use example that span decades?

Tanking is fine when something happens that season that forces you to make a decision (The Spurs example with Duncan). You don’t go into a season thinking about tanking for multiple seasons.

Didn't think you were as dense as that Los guy but here we are....

You do realize saying "Tatum, Brown were traded for, and Shai, Williams were traded for....Makes zero difference to your argument? Because at the end of the god damn day they were still high draft picks in the NBA draft and it took them high picks to get the results they wanted right?.....If Raptors have OTHER teams draft picks that are high in the draft it would take THEM players we draft to take us out of team mid we are in now...

Idc how you aquire them because its the same result at the end of the day, high draft pick=better results....Which is my whole god damn point lmao idk why that is so hard for some people like you and others to understand its really not that god damn difficult to understand when there are legit percentages posted all over the internet proving that as fact that the higher you pick in the draft theres a much higher percentage that you get better results....If you go look them graphs about draft percentages you will find it yourself....

You think them high 2026 draft picks OKC has won't make them even more unreal in the following years? It will absolutly make them a even higher level of a basketball team.....Does Bobby have the trading chops to make savy trades like Presti does? Where you can be a championship contender but still are in the top of the draft like OKC has been? Prolly not i don't think Bobby is actually that good and will have this team in team mid for many more years till the ultimate firing and new vision which will be an ultimate blow up + tank again anyways...

So have fun cheering for first and second round exits for a little bit here and then you will be forced to sit through a proper rebuild/tank again anyways in a few years because this team with Barnes as the first option will never make it that far....

Warned, personal attack.

It does make a difference. Tatum and Brown were going into situations where the team was winning. It was a healthy environment where they were allowed to develop properly and learn how to win.

Jalen Williams was not a high draft pick. He was the 12th pick. SGA was drafted 11th and played for the Clippers then with Chris Paul for a year in OKC where they made the playoffs.

OKC tanked super hard and acquired lots of picks. But many of those picks haven’t materialized. Dieng, Topic, Giddey, Poku. Make no mistake about it, OKC is lottery bound and irrelevant without that Kawhi signing. Chet, Ajay Mitchell, Cason Wallace aren’t turning that team around.

Tha Cynic is absolutely correct. If you have to bring up teams from the 1970s to help support your argument, then you’ve already lost. We need relevant evidence not evidence from the 1970s when there were like 12 teams in the league.

And your current examples are atrocious because a) SGA and Jdubs were drafted in the late lottery from the worst trade in history and b) The Celtics never tanked and got Tatum and Brown in the 2nd worst trade in history.

You’re actually indirectly proving our point.

[JB7]

Didn't think you were as dense as that Los guy but here we are....

You do realize saying "Tatum, Brown were traded for, and Shai, Williams were traded for....Makes zero difference to your argument? Because at the end of the god damn day they were still high draft picks in the NBA draft and it took them high picks to get the results they wanted right?.....If Raptors have OTHER teams draft picks that are high in the draft it would take THEM players we draft to take us out of team mid we are in now...

Idc how you aquire them because its the same result at the end of the day, high draft pick=better results....Which is my whole god damn point lmao idk why that is so hard for some people like you and others to understand its really not that god damn difficult to understand when there are legit percentages posted all over the internet proving that as fact that the higher you pick in the draft theres a much higher percentage that you get better results....If you go look them graphs about draft percentages you will find it yourself....

You think them high 2026 draft picks OKC has won't make them even more unreal in the following years? It will absolutly make them a even higher level of a basketball team.....Does Bobby have the trading chops to make savy trades like Presti does? Where you can be a championship contender but still are in the top of the draft like OKC has been? Prolly not i don't think Bobby is actually that good and will have this team in team mid for many more years till the ultimate firing and new vision which will be an ultimate blow up + tank again anyways...

So have fun cheering for first and second round exits for a little bit here and then you will be forced to sit through a proper rebuild/tank again anyways in a few years because this team with Barnes as the first option will never make it that far....

Warned, personal attack.

There have been hundreds of trades and picks over the two decades and you chose and picked the ones where the Nets imploded leading to high picks for the Celtics and that’s your idea of strategy and you’re calling me dense? Not to mention that team had to make numerous trades after years of being similar to the Derozan and Lowry Raptors before they became legit. That’s how luck works lol. If you want to spend a decades tanking and hoping it works while you follow that team, kudos to you. I’m dense so I’m playing percentages not NBa 2k where I can sim a decade till I get hopefully two stars.

There has been zero examples so far that multi year tanks work in your examples. Every team had some sort of major luck in trade or other team not working out after a trade. The strategy here would be trade Barnes to a team that will give you multiple picks and hope that they implode somehow and give you a top 3 pick. Your other example was a case where the team lost their best player for a year and tanked, which is when the Raptors choose to tank and have tanked in recent years.

Find me trade like the trade that OKC made please. Any trade like that with any team in the NBA, since you guys still haven’t realized that you’re using 1-2% occurrences to show how to strategize for organizations worth billions of dollars is not reality. Will even Giannis get what OKC got? Is there any GM that stupid?

So just because a team "Traded" for the picks that ultimatly ended up being high end draft picks that changes the fact that the talent it took to get that team to another level was ultimatly top draft picks is invalid because they aquired them from a trade? That makes zero sense and is not a valid argument because yes alot of teams that build a sustainable winner they get some sort of high end draft pick majority of the time....NBA History shown that and it takes a very rare curve where a team builds with late draft picks and only late draft picks...

There are multiple examples of how multi year tanks or drafting in the high parts of the draft worked in the past and in the present you just don't want to reconize them because it doesn't suit the weak arguments you are trying to make....

Rockets
Spurs
Pistons
Celtics (Even if it was a trade it took 2 top 5 picks for them to become an actual winner instead of a pretender with the Thomas era teams)
Thunder (Have multiple top picks as their best players, Even shai even if it was a trade Clippers got shai with a Lotto pick at the end of the day)
Timberwolves (Their team has totally changed after drafting Ant Man for the better)

I mean these are the best teams in the NBA right now and they all have something in common....They all have a high end draft pick (s) attached to them....Obvously Celtics are not contenders this year due to Injury but if Tatum comes back tomorrow they are 100 percent in the mix of things....

Playing the middle again like i mention in above posts has its luck of the draw just as much as winning the draft lottery does....About a 3-5% chance we ever trade for a legit franchise player or game changing talent to push us over the top (We lack the assets to get that trade done unless you trade Barnes) At that point you are just building a Bucks level team with a star with not enough depth to actually win...(Funny fact the teams that played the draft like the Spurs/Rockets type of teams are favorited to land Giannis in a trade....Hmm i wonder why....)

Also playing the Middle could result in multiple years of first round exits while never building a proper asset base because chances of drafting OGs, Siakams in the 20s of the draft are very very rare and most likely outcomes are mogbos,Dicks of the world...

So its a gamble either way you try and scream loud and say its not....Again ill bring up a point as well....Making trades for stars also does not have the sustainable winning over a long period of time as Drafting your superstars does because...

1.When you trade for a superstar its usually on the back end of their careers, or they have 1-3 year deals left where they most likely walk in free agency.
2.When you draft your team you have control of these players for 8-9 years so your window of winning is alot longer.
3.You have them on team friendly contracts so you can also build around these players by using money for vets that can help win.

Thats why in the history of the NBA when a team has drafted their stars they have more dynasty % than not...Unless you are the Lakers and get handed every star because of where you are located....

OKC=Current Dynasty= Multiple High end picks Shai/Chet/Williams
Bulls=Dynasty in the 90s=2 top picks with MJ/Pippen
GSW=Dynasty 2 high picks with Curry/Klay
Celtics=Dynasty in the 80s with 2 high picks Bird/McHale
Spurs=Dynasty with Duncan + a very smart front office + Another Dynasty potentially brewing with Wemby/Castle/Harper 3 high picks
Lakers=Dynasty with Magic/Kareem + Shaq/Kobe Lakers This is the ONLY team on the list of dynasties in NBA history that you could look at with your style of building + mix of draft picks as well...Without Kobe/Magic they do not have the dynasties they have but they also got handed superstars because of destination...

I mean you can deny the past all you want but you can't really change history....These teams were all the dynasties in the NBA and they all have something in common....They all have high draft picks on them because....Tada the percentages in the NBA like i said the higher you pick in the draft the better the outcome...

Have teams tried this method and failed....Of course they have....Is their evidence of it actually being successfull and building dynasties ....Of course it has....

Both things can be true but that doesn't mean its an invalid way to team building like you want to suggest when history and present has shown that it is a viable and good strat to building actual winners + Have a more Dynasty building % than playing the middle has produced in NBA history...

What kind of blows up your argument though is the one guy you don’t mention, who happens to be the best player in the game right now, Jokic. Drafted in the 2nd round, and passed over by the team that even ultimately drafted him.

When the game was dominated by the big men playing with their back to the basket, it was a bit easier to draft that next big (Duncan, Shaw, etc.).

But as the game has evolved, and moved further away from the basket (in terms of primary scoring), it gets more difficult to identify those players. I mean the 2nd best player in the game is SGA was drafted 11th, and not considered a star at all, hence why he was included in the PG deal. And Curry was what the 3rd or 4th PG taken, and passed over by the Twolves twice, both for PG’s.

Having high picks is becoming less of a guarantee on finding that next star. Trying to identify that next star takes a lot more analysis and even luck.

[tsherkin]

But as the game has evolved, and moved further away from the basket (in terms of primary scoring), it gets more difficult to identify those players. I mean the 2nd best player in the game is SGA was drafted 11th, and not considered a star at all, hence why he was included in the PG deal. And Curry was what the 3rd or 4th PG taken, and passed over by the Twolves twice, both for PG’s.

Having high picks is becoming less of a guarantee on finding that next star. Trying to identify that next star takes a lot more analysis and even luck.

It is also worth mentioning that you used to be drafting guys who were 22, with 4 years of college ball for scouting them to see their development arc, skill set and potential.

Now we're drafting 19 year-olds for the primary prospects, because this is the era of the one-and-done. That makes draft picks CONSIDERABLY more volatile. They are earlier on in their physical development, skill development, understanding of the game, etc. So the value of a pick, or at least it's likelihood of turning into a rotation player or better, isn't the same as it was 20-40 years ago.

[Clutch0z24]

Tatum and Brown were draft picks they traded for.

Shai and Williams were both due to the worst trade in NBA history made by the Clippers - even worse than the Doncic trade.

And then you threw some random teams from decades ago?

wtf?

How long is this tank going for that you have to use example that span decades?

Tanking is fine when something happens that season that forces you to make a decision (The Spurs example with Duncan). You don’t go into a season thinking about tanking for multiple seasons.

Didn't think you were as dense as that Los guy but here we are....

You do realize saying "Tatum, Brown were traded for, and Shai, Williams were traded for....Makes zero difference to your argument? Because at the end of the god damn day they were still high draft picks in the NBA draft and it took them high picks to get the results they wanted right?.....If Raptors have OTHER teams draft picks that are high in the draft it would take THEM players we draft to take us out of team mid we are in now...

Idc how you aquire them because its the same result at the end of the day, high draft pick=better results....Which is my whole god damn point lmao idk why that is so hard for some people like you and others to understand its really not that god damn difficult to understand when there are legit percentages posted all over the internet proving that as fact that the higher you pick in the draft theres a much higher percentage that you get better results....If you go look them graphs about draft percentages you will find it yourself....

You think them high 2026 draft picks OKC has won't make them even more unreal in the following years? It will absolutly make them a even higher level of a basketball team.....Does Bobby have the trading chops to make savy trades like Presti does? Where you can be a championship contender but still are in the top of the draft like OKC has been? Prolly not i don't think Bobby is actually that good and will have this team in team mid for many more years till the ultimate firing and new vision which will be an ultimate blow up + tank again anyways...

So have fun cheering for first and second round exits for a little bit here and then you will be forced to sit through a proper rebuild/tank again anyways in a few years because this team with Barnes as the first option will never make it that far....

Warned, personal attack.

It does make a difference. Tatum and Brown were going into situations where the team was winning. It was a healthy environment where they were allowed to develop properly and learn how to win.

Jalen Williams was not a high draft pick. He was the 12th pick. SGA was drafted 11th and played for the Clippers then with Chris Paul for a year in OKC where they made the playoffs.

OKC tanked super hard and acquired lots of picks. But many of those picks haven’t materialized. Dieng, Topic, Giddey, Poku. Make no mistake about it, OKC is lottery bound and irrelevant without that Kawhi signing. Chet, Ajay Mitchell, Cason Wallace aren’t turning that team around.

Tha Cynic is absolutely correct. If you have to bring up teams from the 1970s to help support your argument, then you’ve already lost. We need relevant evidence not evidence from the 1970s when there were like 12 teams in the league.

And your current examples are atrocious because a) SGA and Jdubs were drafted in the late lottery from the worst trade in history and b) The Celtics never tanked and got Tatum and Brown in the 2nd worst trade in history.

You’re actually indirectly proving our point.

Lol...the 70s? Okay your basketball knowledge is not that high so i don't really need to continue this convo because i don't think you have much basketball insight outside of the We the North era or the Kawhi era because you prolly bandwagoned on the Raptors as they were winning and didn't watch much outside of that....Which makes you prolly a novice in basketball knowledge in general....

But name me every basketball Dynasty ever in NBA history....Go ahead and do that if you do not know it do some research at least on it....Every Dynasty in the history of basketball started off with high end draft selections and building around that player (s) they drafted with high draft picks...

Every single one of them outside the Lakers who unlike us every superstar wants to play for since the dawn of time....

Just because you don't know the history doesn't mean you can erase it....

And even the teams that have been dynasties in the 2000s and above also have been teams that were smart drafting teams and had high picks...

11,12 last time i checked is still a high draft pick....You still have to have a pretty bad record to end up in them draft selections....You can still find great talent in that area of the draft no questions about that....Would it be harder to find and would it take good scouting and a good eye for talent for sure....But it can still be done....

Now name me how many dynasties have been built by playing team Mid and lucking into a trade....Name me one....Btw a dynasty means they win multiple championships while also being a dominant team for a very long time....

The only other teams you will name are teams that are actually destinations for players (We are not one) Heat, Lakers....But even the Heat/Lakers had high picks in (Wade/Kobe/Magic/Worthy) These are the only other 2 teams that got handed many superstars from being a destination location via free agency....Other than that you have smart drafting orgs leading the charge in the winning category...

Either you are dying on a hill that you are wrong about and trying to scream your points loud to make you seem like you are right....But its not working lol....Cause you are wrong....Erasing history past and present doesn't make what you are saying correct....It is a real thing that high draft picks results in winning in the NBA....And if you do some research you would know that....But wait "I was only a NBA Fan when the Raptors won a title so anything that happened before 2019 does not matter" Lol

[Clutch0z24]

There have been hundreds of trades and picks over the two decades and you chose and picked the ones where the Nets imploded leading to high picks for the Celtics and that’s your idea of strategy and you’re calling me dense? Not to mention that team had to make numerous trades after years of being similar to the Derozan and Lowry Raptors before they became legit. That’s how luck works lol. If you want to spend a decades tanking and hoping it works while you follow that team, kudos to you. I’m dense so I’m playing percentages not NBa 2k where I can sim a decade till I get hopefully two stars.

There has been zero examples so far that multi year tanks work in your examples. Every team had some sort of major luck in trade or other team not working out after a trade. The strategy here would be trade Barnes to a team that will give you multiple picks and hope that they implode somehow and give you a top 3 pick. Your other example was a case where the team lost their best player for a year and tanked, which is when the Raptors choose to tank and have tanked in recent years.

Find me trade like the trade that OKC made please. Any trade like that with any team in the NBA, since you guys still haven’t realized that you’re using 1-2% occurrences to show how to strategize for organizations worth billions of dollars is not reality. Will even Giannis get what OKC got? Is there any GM that stupid?

So just because a team "Traded" for the picks that ultimatly ended up being high end draft picks that changes the fact that the talent it took to get that team to another level was ultimatly top draft picks is invalid because they aquired them from a trade? That makes zero sense and is not a valid argument because yes alot of teams that build a sustainable winner they get some sort of high end draft pick majority of the time....NBA History shown that and it takes a very rare curve where a team builds with late draft picks and only late draft picks...

There are multiple examples of how multi year tanks or drafting in the high parts of the draft worked in the past and in the present you just don't want to reconize them because it doesn't suit the weak arguments you are trying to make....

Rockets
Spurs
Pistons
Celtics (Even if it was a trade it took 2 top 5 picks for them to become an actual winner instead of a pretender with the Thomas era teams)
Thunder (Have multiple top picks as their best players, Even shai even if it was a trade Clippers got shai with a Lotto pick at the end of the day)
Timberwolves (Their team has totally changed after drafting Ant Man for the better)

I mean these are the best teams in the NBA right now and they all have something in common....They all have a high end draft pick (s) attached to them....Obvously Celtics are not contenders this year due to Injury but if Tatum comes back tomorrow they are 100 percent in the mix of things....

Playing the middle again like i mention in above posts has its luck of the draw just as much as winning the draft lottery does....About a 3-5% chance we ever trade for a legit franchise player or game changing talent to push us over the top (We lack the assets to get that trade done unless you trade Barnes) At that point you are just building a Bucks level team with a star with not enough depth to actually win...(Funny fact the teams that played the draft like the Spurs/Rockets type of teams are favorited to land Giannis in a trade....Hmm i wonder why....)

Also playing the Middle could result in multiple years of first round exits while never building a proper asset base because chances of drafting OGs, Siakams in the 20s of the draft are very very rare and most likely outcomes are mogbos,Dicks of the world...

So its a gamble either way you try and scream loud and say its not....Again ill bring up a point as well....Making trades for stars also does not have the sustainable winning over a long period of time as Drafting your superstars does because...

1.When you trade for a superstar its usually on the back end of their careers, or they have 1-3 year deals left where they most likely walk in free agency.
2.When you draft your team you have control of these players for 8-9 years so your window of winning is alot longer.
3.You have them on team friendly contracts so you can also build around these players by using money for vets that can help win.

Thats why in the history of the NBA when a team has drafted their stars they have more dynasty % than not...Unless you are the Lakers and get handed every star because of where you are located....

OKC=Current Dynasty= Multiple High end picks Shai/Chet/Williams
Bulls=Dynasty in the 90s=2 top picks with MJ/Pippen
GSW=Dynasty 2 high picks with Curry/Klay
Celtics=Dynasty in the 80s with 2 high picks Bird/McHale
Spurs=Dynasty with Duncan + a very smart front office + Another Dynasty potentially brewing with Wemby/Castle/Harper 3 high picks
Lakers=Dynasty with Magic/Kareem + Shaq/Kobe Lakers This is the ONLY team on the list of dynasties in NBA history that you could look at with your style of building + mix of draft picks as well...Without Kobe/Magic they do not have the dynasties they have but they also got handed superstars because of destination...

I mean you can deny the past all you want but you can't really change history....These teams were all the dynasties in the NBA and they all have something in common....They all have high draft picks on them because....Tada the percentages in the NBA like i said the higher you pick in the draft the better the outcome...

Have teams tried this method and failed....Of course they have....Is their evidence of it actually being successfull and building dynasties ....Of course it has....

Both things can be true but that doesn't mean its an invalid way to team building like you want to suggest when history and present has shown that it is a viable and good strat to building actual winners + Have a more Dynasty building % than playing the middle has produced in NBA history...

What kind of blows up your argument though is the one guy you don’t mention, who happens to be the best player in the game right now, Jokic. Drafted in the 2nd round, and passed over by the team that even ultimately drafted him.

When the game was dominated by the big men playing with their back to the basket, it was a bit easier to draft that next big (Duncan, Shaw, etc.).

But as the game has evolved, and moved further away from the basket (in terms of primary scoring), it gets more difficult to identify those players. I mean the 2nd best player in the game is SGA was drafted 11th, and not considered a star at all, hence why he was included in the PG deal. And Curry was what the 3rd or 4th PG taken, and passed over by the Twolves twice, both for PG’s.

Having high picks is becoming less of a guarantee on finding that next star. Trying to identify that next star takes a lot more analysis and even luck.

Naming 1 player that is an anomoly vs all the other players in the past that were high lotto picks is a pretty bad argument....The percentages are on my side of the coin in the argument....

It takes a smart front office as well to draft well....You can convince me Bobby is not that good and is a bad drafter so playing the draft strat would be a bad one for us...Which i will agree on that....But to say playing the draft doesn't work and come to the table with Jokic, Timberwolves (One of the worst runned franchises in that time period) as your examples is a weak one...Considering i have a hell of alot more examples of where playing the draft worked for so many teams...

Just because a few players slip through the cracks here and there doesn't mean the percentages are on the side of finding stars later in the draft....There are people online that did studies on this and the studies have came back that picking higher in the draft gets you much better results...

If you are a front office and you want to bank on drafting another Jokic level talent in the 2nd round or late first ...You will prolly not last that long because you prolly will never find it...In the studies people did on the draft the drop off past the lottery has been huge....Past 20 its basically majority of guys out the league in a few years to back of the bench or low tier role players....Id take my chances with a higher pick if i were to have a choice...

[Clutch0z24]

Tatum and Brown were draft picks they traded for.

Shai and Williams were both due to the worst trade in NBA history made by the Clippers - even worse than the Doncic trade.

And then you threw some random teams from decades ago?

wtf?

How long is this tank going for that you have to use example that span decades?

Tanking is fine when something happens that season that forces you to make a decision (The Spurs example with Duncan). You don’t go into a season thinking about tanking for multiple seasons.

Didn't think you were as dense as that Los guy but here we are....

You do realize saying "Tatum, Brown were traded for, and Shai, Williams were traded for....Makes zero difference to your argument? Because at the end of the god damn day they were still high draft picks in the NBA draft and it took them high picks to get the results they wanted right?.....If Raptors have OTHER teams draft picks that are high in the draft it would take THEM players we draft to take us out of team mid we are in now...

Idc how you aquire them because its the same result at the end of the day, high draft pick=better results....Which is my whole god damn point lmao idk why that is so hard for some people like you and others to understand its really not that god damn difficult to understand when there are legit percentages posted all over the internet proving that as fact that the higher you pick in the draft theres a much higher percentage that you get better results....If you go look them graphs about draft percentages you will find it yourself....

You think them high 2026 draft picks OKC has won't make them even more unreal in the following years? It will absolutly make them a even higher level of a basketball team.....Does Bobby have the trading chops to make savy trades like Presti does? Where you can be a championship contender but still are in the top of the draft like OKC has been? Prolly not i don't think Bobby is actually that good and will have this team in team mid for many more years till the ultimate firing and new vision which will be an ultimate blow up + tank again anyways...

So have fun cheering for first and second round exits for a little bit here and then you will be forced to sit through a proper rebuild/tank again anyways in a few years because this team with Barnes as the first option will never make it that far....

Warned, personal attack.

It does make a difference. Tatum and Brown were going into situations where the team was winning. It was a healthy environment where they were allowed to develop properly and learn how to win.

Jalen Williams was not a high draft pick. He was the 12th pick. SGA was drafted 11th and played for the Clippers then with Chris Paul for a year in OKC where they made the playoffs.

OKC tanked super hard and acquired lots of picks. But many of those picks haven’t materialized. Dieng, Topic, Giddey, Poku. Make no mistake about it, OKC is lottery bound and irrelevant without that Kawhi signing. Chet, Ajay Mitchell, Cason Wallace aren’t turning that team around.

Tha Cynic is absolutely correct. If you have to bring up teams from the 1970s to help support your argument, then you’ve already lost. We need relevant evidence not evidence from the 1970s when there were like 12 teams in the league.

And your current examples are atrocious because a) SGA and Jdubs were drafted in the late lottery from the worst trade in history and b) The Celtics never tanked and got Tatum and Brown in the 2nd worst trade in history.

You’re actually indirectly proving our point.

let me end this debate once and for all...







Grok knows all....I would trust Grok over a guy named Los_29 or whoever else is trying to make the same arguments as him...Much smarter than all the team Mid....And if you try and say "Im wrong" Or "Grok" Is wrong...Go find actual data and facts to prove it...I think its a closed case though and time to stop dying on a hill you know nothing about...

[Clutch0z24]

Women lie, Men lie, Data and stats do not lie....Post above for why tanking is a better result than team mid and this one ^ For why drafting higher = better results...Case closed...No need to reply any longer or you are just dying on a losing hill because of pride and can't admit you are just wrong on this subject...

[Duffman100]

Women lie, Men lie, Data and stats do not lie....Post above for why tanking is a better result than team mid and this one ^ For why drafting higher = better results...Case closed...No need to reply any longer or you are just dying on a losing hill because of pride and can't admit you are just wrong on this subject...

This doesn't prove tanking is better. It proves higher draft picks deliver more results.

There is still a big gap here between the connection which has been explained.

Either way, we aren't tanking. We aren't going to tank. Whether it's Queen or tanking, please stop.

You're consistently not talking about the Raptors on a Raptors board.

[Clutch0z24]

Women lie, Men lie, Data and stats do not lie....Post above for why tanking is a better result than team mid and this one ^ For why drafting higher = better results...Case closed...No need to reply any longer or you are just dying on a losing hill because of pride and can't admit you are just wrong on this subject...

This doesn't prove tanking is better. It proves higher draft picks deliver more results.

There is still a big gap here between the connection which has been explained.

Either way, we aren't tanking. We aren't going to tank. Whether it's Queen or tanking, please stop.

You're consistently not talking about the Raptors on a Raptors board.

Um read the post above that one which also shows that tanking does infact have a higher winning percentage than being team mid does...

Just because you are a mod and you personally do not like the conversation does not mean you can tell me or anyone what we can and can not talk about....Its not against the rules to have discussions lol....

And read this thread btw it was not just me having this discussion nor was i the one driving the discussion there are about 10 or so other posters having this discussion....To try and act like i am randomly posting this without other people also driving the conversation is a little insane...

I am actually doing you a favor and ending the discussion by showing you and others unarguable data, stats, and facts to show why it is a viable option for teams while many others are saying its not one including yourself...

Just because you personally don't like the conversation doesn't mean we can't have it?...

[Duffman100]

Women lie, Men lie, Data and stats do not lie....Post above for why tanking is a better result than team mid and this one ^ For why drafting higher = better results...Case closed...No need to reply any longer or you are just dying on a losing hill because of pride and can't admit you are just wrong on this subject...

This doesn't prove tanking is better. It proves higher draft picks deliver more results.

There is still a big gap here between the connection which has been explained.

Either way, we aren't tanking. We aren't going to tank. Whether it's Queen or tanking, please stop.

You're consistently not talking about the Raptors on a Raptors board.

Um read the post above that one which also shows that tanking does infact have a higher winning percentage than being team mid does...

Just because you are a mod and you personally do not like the conversation does not mean you can tell me or anyone what we can and can not talk about....Its not against the rules to have discussions lol....

And read this thread btw it was not just me having this discussion nor was i the one driving the discussion there are about 10 or so other posters having this discussion....To try and act like i am randomly posting this without other people also driving the conversation is a little insane...

I am actually doing you a favor and ending the discussion by showing you and others data, stats, and facts to show why it is a viable option for teams while many others are saying its not one including yourself...

Just because you personally don't like the conversation doesn't mean we can't have it?...

This is a Raptors forum. That's it. Discuss the actual team and not other players or never ending talk and whining about tanking.

You have posted 45+ times in the last few post games when we lost. <5 times when we we win.

You have discussed Queen more than any other player on the raptors.

[Clutch0z24]

This doesn't prove tanking is better. It proves higher draft picks deliver more results.

There is still a big gap here between the connection which has been explained.

Either way, we aren't tanking. We aren't going to tank. Whether it's Queen or tanking, please stop.

You're consistently not talking about the Raptors on a Raptors board.

Um read the post above that one which also shows that tanking does infact have a higher winning percentage than being team mid does...

Just because you are a mod and you personally do not like the conversation does not mean you can tell me or anyone what we can and can not talk about....Its not against the rules to have discussions lol....

And read this thread btw it was not just me having this discussion nor was i the one driving the discussion there are about 10 or so other posters having this discussion....To try and act like i am randomly posting this without other people also driving the conversation is a little insane...

I am actually doing you a favor and ending the discussion by showing you and others data, stats, and facts to show why it is a viable option for teams while many others are saying its not one including yourself...

Just because you personally don't like the conversation doesn't mean we can't have it?...

This is a Raptors forum. That's it. Discuss the actual team and not other players or never ending talk and whining about tanking.

You have posted 45+ times in the last few post games when we lost. <5 times when we we win.

You have discussed Queen more than any other player on the raptors.

I have discussed Queen in a general board, and the CMB thread....Mostly responding to other people talking about Queen which ends up in an argument about it...For example one poster in the CMB thread said "I love CMB but i would not mind having that Queen guy hes a real hooper" I responded to him and agreed with him and had about 3 or 4 posters attacking it?...And i respond to that....Its called having a discussion?....

Again i am pretty sure i am free to discuss whatever i want as long as i am not breaking rules? Last time i checked this wasn't a rule im breaking? So i am confused why you are even typing this at me lol...I will ask other mods if its a rule...If it is then ill stop....

[Duffman100]

Um read the post above that one which also shows that tanking does infact have a higher winning percentage than being team mid does...

Just because you are a mod and you personally do not like the conversation does not mean you can tell me or anyone what we can and can not talk about....Its not against the rules to have discussions lol....

And read this thread btw it was not just me having this discussion nor was i the one driving the discussion there are about 10 or so other posters having this discussion....To try and act like i am randomly posting this without other people also driving the conversation is a little insane...

I am actually doing you a favor and ending the discussion by showing you and others data, stats, and facts to show why it is a viable option for teams while many others are saying its not one including yourself...

Just because you personally don't like the conversation doesn't mean we can't have it?...

This is a Raptors forum. That's it. Discuss the actual team and not other players or never ending talk and whining about tanking.

You have posted 45+ times in the last few post games when we lost. <5 times when we we win.

You have discussed Queen more than any other player on the raptors.

I have discussed Queen in a general board, and the CMB thread....Mostly responding to other people talking about Queen which ends up in an argument about it...For example one poster in the CMB thread said "I love CMB but i would not mind having that Queen guy hes a real hooper" I responded to him and agreed with him and had about 3 or 4 posters attacking it?...And i respond to that....Its called having a discussion?....

Again i am pretty sure i am free to discuss whatever i want as long as i am not breaking rules? Last time i checked this wasn't a rule im breaking? So i am confused why you are even typing this at me lol...I will ask other mods if its a rule...If it is then ill stop....

You have posted in 4 different threads about Queeen. In each thread you say it's the only place you do.

There are multiple rules that cover this but check the rules post at the top of the forum.

[Clutch0z24]

This is a Raptors forum. That's it. Discuss the actual team and not other players or never ending talk and whining about tanking.

You have posted 45+ times in the last few post games when we lost. <5 times when we we win.

You have discussed Queen more than any other player on the raptors.

I have discussed Queen in a general board, and the CMB thread....Mostly responding to other people talking about Queen which ends up in an argument about it...For example one poster in the CMB thread said "I love CMB but i would not mind having that Queen guy hes a real hooper" I responded to him and agreed with him and had about 3 or 4 posters attacking it?...And i respond to that....Its called having a discussion?....

Again i am pretty sure i am free to discuss whatever i want as long as i am not breaking rules? Last time i checked this wasn't a rule im breaking? So i am confused why you are even typing this at me lol...I will ask other mods if its a rule...If it is then ill stop....

You have posted in 4 different threads about Queeen. In each thread you say it's the only place you do.

There are multiple rules that cover this but check the rules post at the top of the forum.

Its against the rules to talk about other players on other teams now? Whoah ....That is news to me i guess i will stop discussing other teams players in the NBA on this board And i won't have discussions either about any other topic besides the Raptors players and how amazing we are.... Also singling me out is kind of wild as well when if you read this entire thread its mostly negative? ....but keep doing your thing bud When you are right in an argument that the Mod is on the opposite side of i guess you get banned around here....What ever happened to free speech?

[Duffman100]

I have discussed Queen in a general board, and the CMB thread....Mostly responding to other people talking about Queen which ends up in an argument about it...For example one poster in the CMB thread said "I love CMB but i would not mind having that Queen guy hes a real hooper" I responded to him and agreed with him and had about 3 or 4 posters attacking it?...And i respond to that....Its called having a discussion?....

Again i am pretty sure i am free to discuss whatever i want as long as i am not breaking rules? Last time i checked this wasn't a rule im breaking? So i am confused why you are even typing this at me lol...I will ask other mods if its a rule...If it is then ill stop....

You have posted in 4 different threads about Queeen. In each thread you say it's the only place you do.

There are multiple rules that cover this but check the rules post at the top of the forum.

Its against the rules to talk about other players on other teams now? Whoah ....That is news to me i guess i will stop discussing other teams players in the NBA on this board And i won't have discussions either about any other topic besides the Raptors players and how amazing we are.... Also singling me out is kind of wild as well when if you read this entire thread its mostly negative? ....but keep doing your thing bud When you are right in an argument that the Mod is on the opposite side of i guess you get banned around here....What ever happened to free speech?

Simple. Talk about the Raptos please. Those other posters also talk about the raptors , win or lose.

When you talk about anything but the Raptors, mostly when we lose, it makes it impossible for the mods to differentiate you and a troll

[NinjaBro]

Lose one game, all hell breaks loose

[Clutch0z24]

You have posted in 4 different threads about Queeen. In each thread you say it's the only place you do.

There are multiple rules that cover this but check the rules post at the top of the forum.

Its against the rules to talk about other players on other teams now? Whoah ....That is news to me i guess i will stop discussing other teams players in the NBA on this board And i won't have discussions either about any other topic besides the Raptors players and how amazing we are.... Also singling me out is kind of wild as well when if you read this entire thread its mostly negative? ....but keep doing your thing bud When you are right in an argument that the Mod is on the opposite side of i guess you get banned around here....What ever happened to free speech?

Simple. Talk about the Raptos please. Those other posters also talk about the raptors , win or lose.

When you talk about anything but the Raptors, mostly when we lose, it makes it impossible for the mods to differentiate you and a troll

Um i been here for many years....I have made majority of the Sigs that posters here use....I am far from a troll....If people don't like my opinions or what i think about the team currently constructed, And i have different opinions on things than other posters including yourself....There is no reason to think im a "Troll" or whatever you are saying....Having different opinions leads to discussions which could also lead to silly arguments about things...

You are a mod so you should not take any argument to heart or be too leaniant to favor the posters you agree with and threaten to ban the ones you disagree with or else this board will just end up with a melting pot and an echo chamber of the same like minds with no discussions or different opinions....Kind of sad to see....But i will let you have this one Just funny after i post basically unarguable data, stats that favor my side of the argument the threats come out thats all....

But keep doing you ...Ill be the bigger person and walk away from it....

[Duffman100]

Its against the rules to talk about other players on other teams now? Whoah ....That is news to me i guess i will stop discussing other teams players in the NBA on this board And i won't have discussions either about any other topic besides the Raptors players and how amazing we are.... Also singling me out is kind of wild as well when if you read this entire thread its mostly negative? ....but keep doing your thing bud When you are right in an argument that the Mod is on the opposite side of i guess you get banned around here....What ever happened to free speech?

Simple. Talk about the Raptos please. Those other posters also talk about the raptors , win or lose.

When you talk about anything but the Raptors, mostly when we lose, it makes it impossible for the mods to differentiate you and a troll

Um i been here for many years....I have made majority of the Sigs that posters here use....I am far from a troll....If people don't like my opinions or what i think about the team currently constructed, And i have different opinions on things than other posters including yourself....There is no reason to think im a "Troll" or whatever you are saying....Having different opinions leads to discussions which could also lead to silly arguments about things...

You are a mod so you should not take any argument to heart or be too leaniant to favor the posters you agree with and threaten to ban the ones you disagree with or else this board will just end up with a melting pot and an echo chamber of the same like minds with no discussions or different opinions....Kind of sad to see....But i will let you have this one Just funny after i post basically unarguable data, stats that favor my side of the argument the threats come out thats all....

But keep doing you ...Ill be the bigger person and walk away from it....

Great. I look forward to you posting more about the Raptors.