Quickley or Shead?

[tsherkin]

[
I don’t agree that we have rim pressure in the starting line up.

This is wrong. You know this is wrong. What you wanted to say was that we do not have ENOUGH rim pressure, which is a debatable point but a lot easier to sell that what you actually wrote.

It’s more realistic to find a player like that via an upgrade at the PG spot than it is to magically find a guy like that coming off our bench.

Now that, I don't agree with, lol. How many actual PGs are in the league who provide meaningful rim pressure?

First of all, a bunch of the best "PGs" are much larger than that. Luka and Shai, for example are technically PGs. Then you have someone like Cade, who is also 2-guard sized and isn't particularly good at generating the type of pressure you're discussing. Trae Young? 100% not your guy for that. Collin Gillespie from Phoenix? Nope. And you're bonkers if you think we're getting Tyrese Maxey.

Steph is technically a PG, but we both aren't ever going to acquire him and he's not a "rim pressure" kind of guy.

It goes on like that. The small guards aren't really the ones who do that. It's bigger guards who have burst and can muscle their way in. Or the rare middle-space guy like Kyrie who has both a shot and such a handle that he can do it. But he also isn't likely available. We aren't getting Jalen Brunson, but he's mostly a guard post / 3pt guy anyway.

[HumbleRen]

[
I don’t agree that we have rim pressure in the starting line up.

This is wrong. You know this is wrong. What you wanted to say was that we do not have ENOUGH rim pressure, which is a debatable point but a lot easier to sell that what you actually wrote.

It’s more realistic to find a player like that via an upgrade at the PG spot than it is to magically find a guy like that coming off our bench.

Now that, I don't agree with, lol. How many actual PGs are in the league who provide meaningful rim pressure?

First of all, a bunch of the best "PGs" are much larger than that. Luka and Shai, for example are technically PGs. Then you have someone like Cade, who is also 2-guard sized and isn't particularly good at generating the type of pressure you're discussing. Trae Young? 100% not your guy for that. Collin Gillespie from Phoenix? Nope. And you're bonkers if you think we're getting Tyrese Maxey.

Steph is technically a PG, but we both aren't ever going to acquire him and he's not a "rim pressure" kind of guy.

It goes on like that. The small guards aren't really the ones who do that. It's bigger guards who have burst and can muscle their way in. Or the rare middle-space guy like Kyrie who has both a shot and such a handle that he can do it. But he also isn't likely available. We aren't getting Jalen Brunson, but he's mostly a guard post / 3pt guy anyway.

No it’s not wrong lol. We saw it when Rj was gone, I don’t know why you’re acting obtuse about that. We completely settled for mid range shots and 3’s because we don’t have enough volume rim pressure from BI, Iq and Scottie. They don’t have that in their arsenal.

[kalel123]

No doubt in my mind that Shead's a bench player and Quickley should start.

But at the same time, Quickley isn't so much better that he should be immune to getting sat on the bench in favour of Shead when he doesn't have it. Quickley did not have it down the stretch last night; he was starting to lose his mind and we were losing our lead with him. And Darko correctly put Shead in to close the game to get the game back in control.

Not sure what about that is so controversial?

[tsherkin]

No it’s not wrong lol. We saw it when Rj was gone,

No, you're literally wrong, because we have RJ. And we were discussing the team with RJ. He is the rim pressure in our starting lineup.

Evaluating the team when a core starter goes down is a fool's errand, because any team gets considerably worse when that happens unless they're a generational dynasty riddled with talent from top to bottom.

[ItsDanger]

Darko should continue to utilize Shead over IQ in certain situations. IQ just hasn't been consistent and if the coach prioritizes winning then he shouldn't have any hesitation to go with a bench player instead.

[JCP11]

Shead is my guy. Of course IQ is more talented but whatever IQ produces on offense he gives back on defense. When IQ is off he's a net negative out there because he doesn't make consistent good decisions and he can't really guard anyone due to his body limitations. Shead is a tough physical defender and knows how run this offense and with all the talent they have on the starting 5 they don't need him to score 15/game, he makes them better just by his defense alone. That's why any type of 2 way PG would elevate this team like a Jrue Holiday ( too bad he's too old).

[ForeverTFC]

Why is our fan base so allergic to having 2 PGs on the roster?

[tsherkin]

Why is our fan base so allergic to having 2 PGs on the roster?

There isn't a real reason to move Shead at this time, unless it's part of some larger deal to get a really significant talent on the team.

Shead isn't going to be the guy causing trouble from the bench the way we had between Ford and Calderon back in the day, for example. They can co-exist together for a while yet while we see if Shead can improve his shooting and become a reasonably efficient (or at least not problematically-inefficient) scoring threat. Meantime, IQ is one of our best off-ball shooters, and still does a fair amount as a playmaking threat.

We need both at the moment and do not need to sacrifice one to enable the other, for sure.

[Indeed]

I did. I don’t think that’s a viable solution to our issue at all lol.

...

You can’t rely on rim pressure from the bench guys, that’s utterly silly. We need it from our starters.

So, we have rim pressure in our starting lineup. We have none in our bench lineup, which is a larger issue. If we had a 15-20 mpg guy coming in at the 2/3 who could maintain that rim pressure, that would no longer be an issue.

It's going to be hard to find someone we can play at the 1 who is worthwhile in that regard. Small guys aren't generally it for that style of play. So we are, in essence, looking for a combo guard-sized player who can defend reasonably well, shoot reasonably well from outside and then also attack with a live dribble. That's basically what you're talking about, and those are neither common. Nor cheap.

EDIT: Because otherwise, you're really just saying what I did, that we need a SG. And since we already have RJ, this new guy isn't likely to start.

I don’t agree that we have rim pressure in the starting line up.

Scoring in the paint doesn’t mean rim pressure. RJ is the only player who can consistently get to the rim with a live dribble in the starting 5. Ideally you want your lead guard to be able to do that, IQ can’t. It’s more realistic to find a player like that via an upgrade at the PG spot than it is to magically find a guy like that coming off our bench.

Ideally yes, a combo guard who can do all of that would be great but I don’t think that’s a realistic get.

Exactly what I argued on the Barrett injury thread.
You cannot pay a starting PG money for someone who does not provide that, and expect your minimum or rookie contract player to provide creation, particularly rim pressure.

The luxury tax is the same, it is where you want to spend.

[Indeed]

Why is our fan base so allergic to having 2 PGs on the roster?

We only have one with PG skill. Dictating temple, setting up the hot hand, manage the game, etc.
Our fan base so allergic to player with PG title without the actual PG skill, and we pay him for a starting PG salary.

[Blazing_royale]

None but we don't have a choice right now. They both bring different things to the table.

[YoungG]

The proverbial question of "Which PG Does The Raptors' Stick With?" It feels like we get here every decade - Who's old enough to remember TJ Ford vs Jose Calderon anyone? I was certainly a fan of the IQ trade, because of the possibility, the optimism surrounding the future of that position. Now, I'm hoping that IQ's contract can net us a consistent player that doesn't need to be yanked during 'winning time'. Shead isn't ready for full time minutes, but IQ doesn't seem like he is either lol. What a conundrum the Raptors have found themselves in...

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

I think IQ’s highest and best use is as a 2 or a scoring combo guard - like a Lou Williams mold. He’s doing his game few favours playing as our lead pg. I don’t care what they call it or who he plays with if Darko insists on him bringing up the ball and trying to break down the defense and get us into our sets - he’s gonna get what we’ve seen. And it leads to a short shot clock with the ball staying on the perimeter, often.

Start IQ, but have him come off screens to the ball, cut, get hot and change a game.

Shead is overproducing his draft spot, but that only takes you so far. He’s played his years in Houston so he’s an old sophomore - but the growth in his game and his leadership and heady play seem great. He’s made himself a part of almost every great moment this year. I mean they’re all a part, but he’s been a clear cut above. He had a run with crazy numbers, then had a long slump and seems to be evening out. But he’s not Quick, it should not be Shead or Quick thing. They have a lot of shooting guards, they don’t have a lot of pgs. They choose to play IQ at pg, they have to make a rough choice on their sg depth, but to reach our goals, we do need more pg play. Right now Shead gives us that easier - and there are time that helps get other players going, including IQ. Honestly whoever can be creatively able to sell players that it doesn’t matter who starts, it matters who plays and how much would unlock basketball nirvana.

I think with our current roster if healthy as we get into the stretch run, I think Darko has to shrink the rotation, but both Shead and IQ would be needed. It’s still as much IQ vs RJ - or Walter or I guess Gradey - because I think if Darko is trying to win a game Shead will play, he’ll be needed regardless of what IQ does, unless IQ can all of a sudden change his game. He should do what he’s great at. Splash it and change the game. Let someone else manage it.

[pingpongrac]

IQ is currently much better and we as constructed need both players very much. There are situations where Shead is more helpful.

Frankly with the success we've had playing them together I am in no rush to engage in pitting them against each other.

Exactly. This could very well be a Lowry/FVV thing where we can get away with playing them both in the backcourt because they mesh well together offensively and they're collectively a pretty strong defensive duo in the backcourt despite not having much size.

[causal_fan]

IQ the much better talent, Shead the better PG fit & contract.

[tsherkin]

IQ is currently much better and we as constructed need both players very much. There are situations where Shead is more helpful.

Frankly with the success we've had playing them together I am in no rush to engage in pitting them against each other.

Exactly. This could very well be a Lowry/FVV thing where we can get away with playing them both in the backcourt because they mesh well together offensively and they're collectively a pretty strong defensive duo in the backcourt despite not having much size.

This. We don't need to position them as adversarial. We have them as a nice change of pace between one another at the moment, and that's plenty.

[bboyskinnylegs]

Shead is better in his role as a backup PG than IQ is in his role as a starting PG. It doesn't mean that Shead will excel in IQ's role. Ultimately a trade will be needed imo

[bboyskinnylegs]

Why is our fan base so allergic to having 2 PGs on the roster?

who are we trading for to make that happen?

[LLJ]

IQ brings more to the table in terms of skills and production but Shead passes the eye test more when it comes to running the team/bball IQ. Ideally if we could fuse the two together we'd have the ideal PG but alas we have to alternate between the two as situations demand.

[kwajo]

Why is our fan base so allergic to having 2 PGs on the roster?

I came here to say the same thing.

We’ve been doing this for over 20 years now.