Quickley or Shead?

[MEDIC]

This forum has completely lost their minds. We don’t even know if Shead will last in the NBA. He’s got a lot of work to do.

It's not just this sub. Several basketball analysts think Shead is the more effective player.

There was a game earlier this season against Boston. The Boston commentators were talking about Shead & how difficult he was making the game for Boston. You could tell they had a lot of respect for his game & the way he was playing.

Towards the end of the game, Darko subbed Quickley back in & one of them snickered & said "well, I guess Darko is going to help us win this one" (or something along those lines).

[YogurtProducer]

I think you guys are misinterpreting the whole "pure PG" thing. My belief (based on what I have read), is that people want a more dynamic PG. One that can get paint touches, suck in the defense & make plays from there.

Sure, but you also need shooting. Posters seem to think that teams are not going to defend us differently if we no longer have a top tier shooter from the 1 spot.

Nobody wants Jose Calderon or Mark Jackson to suit up.

I mean... both Calderon and Jackson would be a big upgrade on Shead. Jackson is actually not to far off what Shead is either as a guy who cant score worth dick and just plays defence.

Having a PG with a quick first step &/ or one that plays great POA defense would be nice though. An actual PG though.....not a SG trying to play PG. Experience running plays matters.

But you do understand as Shead gets more minutes / exposure teams are going to defend him differently, right? Especially if he becomes a 30+mpg guy teams are going to SAG hard off of him and force him to shoot. He won't be able to get into the paint or anything like that when defenders are sagging 5 feet off of him.

Not to mention his presence will clog up the paint and will harm Barnes/Ingrams ability to get to the rim and make things happen.

Several posters have mentioned Jrue Holiday types as being the ideal.

Oh, just a guy who got a max extension at one point? Is that all we need?

Like it seems obvious that yes, an all-star or all-nba PG would be better than IQ. But is that feasible?

Who is this mystery player?

How are we getting this mystery player?

How are we affording this mystery player?

[MEDIC]

I would argue that starting Jakobe at "PG" would be optimal with his length, POA defense and not needing the ball in his hands.

Yeah, I agree. I was saying last season that they should develop him as a combo guard/ 3rd PG. His handles are decent enough.

[Los_29]

This forum has completely lost their minds. We don’t even know if Shead will last in the NBA. He’s got a lot of work to do.

It's not just this sub. Several basketball analysts think Shead is the more effective player.

There was a game earlier this season against Boston. The Boston commentators were talking about Shead & how difficult he was making the game for Boston. You could tell they had a lot of respect for his game & the way he was playing.

Towards the end of the game, Darko subbed Quickley back in & one of them snickered & said "well, I guess Darko is going to help us win this one" (or something along those lines).

That doesn't say much. That's based on one game. There is no way a credible basketball analyst would think that Shead should replace IQ in the starting lineup. It's outrageous. IQ is the much better basketball player and it's not even close. And it's not like Shead would be the better fit in the starting lineup. He's a bad offensive player who can't shoot.

[Madvillainy2004]

This forum has completely lost their minds. We don’t even know if Shead will last in the NBA. He’s got a lot of work to do.

It's not just this sub. Several basketball analysts think Shead is the more effective player.

There was a game earlier this season against Boston. The Boston commentators were talking about Shead & how difficult he was making the game for Boston. You could tell they had a lot of respect for his game & the way he was playing.

Towards the end of the game, Darko subbed Quickley back in & one of them snickered & said "well, I guess Darko is going to help us win this one" (or something along those lines).

That doesn't say much. That's based on one game. There is no way a credible basketball analyst would think that Shead should replace IQ in the starting lineup. It's outrageous. IQ is the much better basketball player and it's not even close. And it's not like Shead would be the better fit in the starting lineup. He's a bad offensive player who can't shoot.

Id kinda get it if it was a situation where Shead had better advanced stats but IQ blows him out of the water in any meaningful catch-all stat. EPM is not even close and its pretty clear why. Sheads advantages over IQ arent as big as IQs advantages over shead. And id argue IQs shooting makes him more important regardless hes literally the only player on the team that can hit a 3 off the dribble.

[YogurtProducer]

This forum has completely lost their minds. We don’t even know if Shead will last in the NBA. He’s got a lot of work to do.

It's not just this sub. Several basketball analysts think Shead is the more effective player.

There was a game earlier this season against Boston. The Boston commentators were talking about Shead & how difficult he was making the game for Boston. You could tell they had a lot of respect for his game & the way he was playing.

Towards the end of the game, Darko subbed Quickley back in & one of them snickered & said "well, I guess Darko is going to help us win this one" (or something along those lines).

That doesn't say much. That's based on one game. There is no way a credible basketball analyst would think that Shead should replace IQ in the starting lineup. It's outrageous. IQ is the much better basketball player and it's not even close. And it's not like Shead would be the better fit in the starting lineup. He's a bad offensive player who can't shoot.

Not to mention, Shead and Poeltl have been a horrible fit together (-4.6NRTG in 143 minutes).

Going further, looking at Barrett and Poeltl 3-man lineups, their worst 3rd player is Shead, who is a -41.1 in 25 minutes. Their best is Dick (wtf?) and 2nd is IQ at +7.8. Funny enough.. IQ and Shead together is a +12.0 which is by far both of theirs best pairing.

Shead is just a bad fit for our SL because you cant have non-shooters at the 1 with Barrett, Barnes, and Poeltl all also on the floor.

Like Shead/RJ/Barnes/Ingram/Poeltl is a bad lineup. You simply cannot roll out those lineups for extended periods of time because Sheads defender will ignore him, Poeltls defender can camp under the rim, and they can send 2 at Ingram with 0 real threat anyone is gonna hit 3s

[YogurtProducer]

It's not just this sub. Several basketball analysts think Shead is the more effective player.

There was a game earlier this season against Boston. The Boston commentators were talking about Shead & how difficult he was making the game for Boston. You could tell they had a lot of respect for his game & the way he was playing.

Towards the end of the game, Darko subbed Quickley back in & one of them snickered & said "well, I guess Darko is going to help us win this one" (or something along those lines).

That doesn't say much. That's based on one game. There is no way a credible basketball analyst would think that Shead should replace IQ in the starting lineup. It's outrageous. IQ is the much better basketball player and it's not even close. And it's not like Shead would be the better fit in the starting lineup. He's a bad offensive player who can't shoot.

Id kinda get it if it was a situation where Shead had better advanced stats but IQ blows him out of the water in any meaningful catch-all stat. EPM is not even close and its pretty clear why. Sheads advantages over IQ arent as big as IQs advantages over shead. And id argue IQs shooting makes him more important regardless hes literally the only player on the team that can hit a 3 off the dribble.

Yeah like Shead is a great defender, playmaker, and protector of the ball... But IQ is still "good" at all of those things as well.

But IQ is damn near elite as a shooter and is a good in-between guy, whereas Shead is legitimately one of the worst in the league here.

[Indeed]

I would argue that starting Jakobe at "PG" would be optimal with his length, POA defense and not needing the ball in his hands.

Trade a combo of IQ, Agbaji and Poeltl for BPA. They are the JV, Derozan and Poeltl's that need to be sacrificed to bring the team back to contender status.

I also mentioned having Walter sharing the PG duty with Barrett. If it does not work out, we are going to draft someone in this PG heavy draft.

Meanwhile, I dont think Quickley, Agbaji and Poeltl can net you anything good. I am unsure they are net positive assets. Giving picks on a strong draft would be disappointing.

[MEDIC]

The Davion / Shead pairing was not a feasible long term option. You cant have 48 minutes of PG play from non-shooting threats

It was working. It looked good. You could see opposing PG's hated it. They were pretty shook some games.

Mitchell shot .398 from three last season & is shooting .379 this season. You can't say he is a non-shooting threat.

Unless Shead magically becomes a high volume 3 point shooter, that simply isn't the case. Shead is a much better defender when he is a bench guy playing 18mpg, but don't forget IQ was labeled as a great defender to in NYK. The difference between the two defensively isn't huge. It is just natural when guys get more minute and offensive responsibility the defence drops. Same thing would happen to Shead if he played 32mpg.

IQ was a great defender because 1 youtube video said so? IQ was a good off-ball defender in Thibs system. He is not a great individual defender. The difference between their on ball defense is quite significant.

So you are saying Lowry couldn't play defense for 32 min? Davion Mitchell can't play defense for 32 min? Jason Kidd? Jrue Holiday?

You either have it in you, or you don't.

Comparing the 2026 era where Shead has been developing in the 3point climate and 2008 era where Lowry was never encouraged to shoot 3's is not the same thing.

I will give you that, but Lowry did improve his shooting at 25 years old. It's not like players didn't shoot 3's back then. Steve Nash had been cooking for quite a while at that point. There were tons of PG's from that era that could shoot.

Sure. But this is a 4-year college player who is in his 2nd NBA season. It has been 6 years of high level development to figure out his shot and it never happened. Here is his shooting splits:
FR - 12.5% (barely played)
SO - 29.8%
JR - 31.0%
SR - 30.9%
ROOK - 32.3%
SOPH - 33.1%

He is more than likely going to be a bad shooter for the rest of his career.

I am just going to diaagree with you on this one. Many players developed a consistent 3 point shot in their prime years. I think shooting is one of the easier skills to develop.

Hey......look at the numbers you provided.....he is improving! By the 2028/ 2029 season, he should be a 36% shooter!

[ontnut]

Quickley is an avg starting guard. Shead is an above average bench guard. Quickley is still better by at least an order of magnitude.

[Los_29]

The Davion / Shead pairing was not a feasible long term option. You cant have 48 minutes of PG play from non-shooting threats

It was working. It looked good. You could see opposing PG's hated it. They were pretty shook some games.

Mitchell shot .398 from three last season & is shooting .379 this season. You can't say he is a non-shooting threat.

Unless Shead magically becomes a high volume 3 point shooter, that simply isn't the case. Shead is a much better defender when he is a bench guy playing 18mpg, but don't forget IQ was labeled as a great defender to in NYK. The difference between the two defensively isn't huge. It is just natural when guys get more minute and offensive responsibility the defence drops. Same thing would happen to Shead if he played 32mpg.

IQ was a great defender because 1 youtube video said so? IQ was a good off-ball defender in Thibs system. He is not a great individual defender. The difference between their on ball defense is quite significant.

So you are saying Lowry couldn't play defense for 32 min? Davion Mitchell can't play defense for 32 min? Jason Kidd? Jrue Holiday?

You either have it in you, or you don't.

Comparing the 2026 era where Shead has been developing in the 3point climate and 2008 era where Lowry was never encouraged to shoot 3's is not the same thing.

I will give you that, but Lowry did improve his shooting at 25 years old. It's not like players didn't shoot 3's back then. Steve Nash had been cooking for quite a while at that point. There were tons of PG's from that era that could shoot.

Sure. But this is a 4-year college player who is in his 2nd NBA season. It has been 6 years of high level development to figure out his shot and it never happened. Here is his shooting splits:
FR - 12.5% (barely played)
SO - 29.8%
JR - 31.0%
SR - 30.9%
ROOK - 32.3%
SOPH - 33.1%

He is more than likely going to be a bad shooter for the rest of his career.

I am just going to diaagree with you on this one. Many players developed a consistent 3 point shot in their prime years. I think shooting is one of the easier skills to develop.

Hey......look at the numbers you provided.....he is improving! By the 2028/ 2029 season, he should be a 36% shooter!

What was working? We were a bad team last year.

How can you disagree that he’s likely going to be a bad shooter? There is overwhelming evidence that tells you he’s going to be a bad/mediocre shooter. There are definitely success stories but those aren’t common.

IQ is just so much better. It’s not even close. lol.

[MEDIC]

Several posters have mentioned Jrue Holiday types as being the ideal.

Oh, just a guy who got a max extension at one point? Is that all we need?

Like it seems obvious that yes, an all-star or all-nba PG would be better than IQ. But is that feasible?

Who is this mystery player?

How are we getting this mystery player?

How are we affording this mystery player?

Alright.

Found my example of that diamond in the rough player. Someone that I have wanted on this team for a few years now. NAW.

He didn't shoot above .350 from three until he was 24 years old. He didn't shoot efficiently at high volume until he was 27 years old. He definitely improved his shooting.

Also....he bounced around in the league a lot. He was kind of an afterthought. He kept grinding and working on his game, & started to gain some traction in Minny. Found a role there. Atlanta sees an opportunity to get a developing player, entering his prime years & gets him for a second and cash. Then they sign him to a 15.5 million dollar deal x 4 years.

NAW is making 1/2 of what Quickley is making & outperforming him on both sides of the court.

Atlanta made the right choice. These are the types of opportunities you have to look for.

[YogurtProducer]

It was working. It looked good. You could see opposing PG's hated it. They were pretty shook some games.

We went 10-12 with Davion as a starter, propped up very heavily by the only stretch where we had most of our team healthy (sans IQ) and played a lot of bad teams in a row. IDK if I call that "working".

Reality is there is a reason why Davion was given away for peanuts twice in 12 months. He is a good rotation piece, but a serious team is not starting him (outside if you are like the Big 3 Heat and just have whoever else at the 1 lol)

Mitchell shot .398 from three last season & is shooting .379 this season. You can't say he is a non-shooting threat.

He is a non shooting threat. He takes 3 3's a game and hits about 1. All are absolutely wide open and catch and shoot.

He is a career 35% from 3 on low volume. He is not a threat to beat you from 3.

IQ was a great defender because 1 youtube video said so? IQ was a good off-ball defender in Thibs system. He is not a great individual defender. The difference between their on ball defense is quite significant.

No? Because it was a commonly said by Knicks fans and backed up by the fact he had good defensive metrics (and still does, to be fair).

So you are saying Lowry couldn't play defense for 32 min? Davion Mitchell can't play defense for 32 min? Jason Kidd? Jrue Holiday? You either have it in you, or you don't.

You just named all-nba defenders IDK if I want to hold my teams future at the 1 at hoping Shead is as good as a handful of HOFers, and Davion Mitchell who has 0 offensive responsibility.

I am just going to diaagree with you on this one. Many players developed a consistent 3 point shot in their prime years. I think shooting is one of the easier skills to develop.

Such as?

Any player who develops a 3 point shot 7 years into their college/pro career is very much the outlier, and should not be expected at all. Most guys who can shoot the basketball come into the league as shooters, or develop it very early on in their careers. Again, this is not even a decade ago with guys like Lowry who never prioritized the 3 until they were 6 year vets. Shead has been in a basketball environment in which shooting was seen as a premium skill since he was a freshman in high school.

[YogurtProducer]

Several posters have mentioned Jrue Holiday types as being the ideal.

Oh, just a guy who got a max extension at one point? Is that all we need?

Like it seems obvious that yes, an all-star or all-nba PG would be better than IQ. But is that feasible?

Who is this mystery player?

How are we getting this mystery player?

How are we affording this mystery player?

At one point Jrue wasn't an all NBA player. He wasn't a lottery pick either. He was a young developing player. Same with Kyle Lowry. We got him for a guy named Gary Forbes and a protected 1st round pick. I would say that worked out pretty well for us.

Jrue was the 17th pick and made an all star game as a 22 year old. We traded away a lottery pick for Lowry. That is in no way comparable to using the 45th pick on Shead. They are not even CLOSE to comparable as prospects.

Jrue was a better player from day 1 than Shead is, and Lowry is also the outlier of all outliers when it comes to development.

But again, who is this mystery player that is just going to casually be Jrue Holiday for us?

COULD Jamal Shead develop into that guy... I guess anyone "could" do that.

WILL Jamal Shead develop into that guy? I would say the odds Shead makes an all-star game at like 1%.

[LoveMyRaps]

Shead is the better PG.

Quickley is the better SG.

Overall, Quick is still a much better player.

[MEDIC]

What was working? We were a bad team last year.

They were injured......and tanking. But, there as a stretch of games where they wanted to showcase the vets (January) before the trade deadline. The defense looked super impressive with those two rotating at PG.

How can you disagree that he’s likely going to be a bad shooter? There is overwhelming evidence that tells you he’s going to be a bad/mediocre shooter. There are definitely success stories but those aren’t common.

I am not saying he is or he isn't. I don't have a crystal ball. But I'm not going to write him off either. Some players you beleive in though (more so than others). Guys that have the right work ethic & commitment to getting better. I think Shead has that, so I think he has a chance.

IQ is just so much better. It’s not even close. lol.

I am glad you like him so much.

[MEDIC]

Oh, just a guy who got a max extension at one point? Is that all we need?

Like it seems obvious that yes, an all-star or all-nba PG would be better than IQ. But is that feasible?

Who is this mystery player?

How are we getting this mystery player?

How are we affording this mystery player?

At one point Jrue wasn't an all NBA player. He wasn't a lottery pick either. He was a young developing player. Same with Kyle Lowry. We got him for a guy named Gary Forbes and a protected 1st round pick. I would say that worked out pretty well for us.

Jrue was the 17th pick and made an all star game as a 22 year old. We traded away a lottery pick for Lowry. That is in no way comparable to using the 45th pick on Shead. They are not even CLOSE to comparable as prospects.

Jrue was a better player from day 1 than Shead is, and Lowry is also the outlier of all outliers when it comes to development.

But again, who is this mystery player that is just going to casually be Jrue Holiday for us?

COULD Jamal Shead develop into that guy... I guess anyone "could" do that.

WILL Jamal Shead develop into that guy? I would say the odds Shead makes an all-star game at like 1%.

No idea why you are bringing Shead into this. Lol

You asked how does a team acquire a Jrue.Holiday type player. It happens......but you have to know what you want in a player & your scouting/ talent evaluation has to be on point. We do have assets we can move. I am not saying it can or will happen tomorrow. Maybe it takes 6 months, maybe it takes 2 years. You keep picking away.

[Los_29]

What was working? We were a bad team last year.

They were injured......and tanking. But, there as a stretch of games where they wanted to showcase the vets (January) before the trade deadline. The defense looked super impressive with those two rotating at PG.

How can you disagree that he’s likely going to be a bad shooter? There is overwhelming evidence that tells you he’s going to be a bad/mediocre shooter. There are definitely success stories but those aren’t common.

I am not saying he is or he isn't. I don't have a crystal ball. But I'm not going to write him off either. Some players you beleive in though (more so than others). Guys that have the right work ethic & commitment to getting better. I think Shead has that, so I think he has a chance.

IQ is just so much better. It’s not even close. lol.

I am glad you like him so much.

Very small sample size.

It's not that I like him, it's that I am trying to be as objective as possible. Shead is nowhere near the kind of player IQ is. Shead isn't even an average NBA player at this point of his career.

And not writing him off. It's not about that. It's about being realistic. You can say he works hard but there is more to it because Shead hasn't improved on his three point shooting yet in the NBA.

[YogurtProducer]

At one point Jrue wasn't an all NBA player. He wasn't a lottery pick either. He was a young developing player. Same with Kyle Lowry. We got him for a guy named Gary Forbes and a protected 1st round pick. I would say that worked out pretty well for us.

Jrue was the 17th pick and made an all star game as a 22 year old. We traded away a lottery pick for Lowry. That is in no way comparable to using the 45th pick on Shead. They are not even CLOSE to comparable as prospects.

Jrue was a better player from day 1 than Shead is, and Lowry is also the outlier of all outliers when it comes to development.

But again, who is this mystery player that is just going to casually be Jrue Holiday for us?

COULD Jamal Shead develop into that guy... I guess anyone "could" do that.

WILL Jamal Shead develop into that guy? I would say the odds Shead makes an all-star game at like 1%.

No idea why you are bringing Shead into this. Lol

You asked how does a team acquire a Jrue.Holiday type player. It happens......but you have to know what you want in a player & your scouting/ talent evaluation has to be on point. We do have assets we can move. I am not saying it can or will happen tomorrow. Maybe it takes 6 months, maybe it takes 2 years. You keep picking away.

uhhh i think I got confused on what convo i was in

But again... how are we acquiring a Jrue player?

That is such a crazy ask to make for a team lol. Just go "find" the next breakout all-nba player for cheap

[mdenny]

I almost wish that Iq would sit out for 4 or 5 games so that all the exagerated critiques would be put into perspective. RJ's image with a subset of this board was completely rehabilitated just by sitting out so that ppl can learn to appreciate what he provides even when he has a bad game stat wise.


Ir's true for Iq...even when he has a poor shooting game.....there's other stuff that happens with his presence. I love Shead but it's predictable that he would end up getting fully hated on in IQ's absence.