Siegel: Toronto trade intel

[Merit]

Sabonis makes no sense for this team with Barnes and BI

Sabonis is Jak with less defense, but way better offense (shooting, back to the basket game) and rebounding. If you think the raps are amazing with 25 min of Jak, imagine 32 min of Sabonis.

But there is no straight swap of the two. We are gutting two starters for Sabonis.

Would be a horrid move IMO

I have already shared a trade that would not move RJ, only IQ.

Sabonis and Ellis for IQ, Gradey, Ochai and Mogbo.

Gets us under the tax.

PG Shead/Ellis (but practically Scottie or RJ) + Martin/Hepburn
SG RJ/Walter
SF BI/Battle
PF Scottie/CMB
C Sabonis/Jak

[PhilBlackson]

I would not include any first for Sabonis (period).

I see people claiming Trae isn’t supposedly a “winning player” who actually CARRIED his team to an ECF and other Playoff appearances as THE engine of the team. Sabonis on the other hand has done absolutely nothing, both IND & SAC were/have been bottom feeders with him as their “best player” and only were Playoff teams either when he was traded away (IND) or when their actual best player was traded away (SAC).

So hell no to including a pick. They want to get rid of Sabonis they can have their own “Kispert” (Gradey) + salary deal lol. In their case they can take a longer salary since it will probably be the only way to retain players.

[The Warrior]

This is a trade I can live with:



(fails because Jak can't be traded until tomorrow)


Gets both teams below the tax as well.

If we trade for Sabonis, Jak will have to go back. Otherwise we'd be including both RJ and IQ and that's a non starter for me. Trading IQ and bringing back Monk gives us a point man. I'd probably start Shead and move Monk to the bench.

I wouldn’t do it. You’re wildly underrating Jak. We would be back at square one with zero size and zero paint intimidation. Jak is needed on this team.

We need a big man or just another C in general, but Jakob specifically is not "needed" on this team. A lumbering center with no offensive skill and a liability when teams pull him from the paint.? No thanks. This isn't 2015. Dude is 30 but plays like he's 40.

And no, he doesn't offer any paint intimidation. You'd think for his size, he'd be an intimidating factor but he isn't. For his price tag, we should be getting better production.

If anything he's vastly overrated.

Sent from my SM-F731W using Tapatalk

[RaptorPride]

I watched a lot of kings games because of DeMar. Trust me, you guys do not want Sabonis. He just hustles hard for rebounds but when he is matched up against a 7 footer or a real rebounder its over for him. They will out rebound him when it matters most. And his offence is just like Jaks he just shoots it alot more than him and is easy to stop in the playoffs. He can hit an occasional open three but he isn't a floor spacer. He's just way to small and has a short wingspan to be an effective center out there. His defence is just plain bad. His playing making is alright but nothing special he is not no Jokic.

Getting him will just create new problems that we would have to figure out to fix.

The only way I would be okay is if we keep Jak as his backup. But even then I would hate it.

[LoveMyRaps]

I watched a lot of kings games because of DeMar. Trust me you guys do not want Sabonis. He just hustles hard for rebounds but when he is matched up against a 7 footer or a real rebounder its over for him. They will out rebound him when it matters most. And his offence is just like Jaks he just shoots it alot more than him and is easy to stop in the playoffs. He can hit an occasional open three but he isn't a floor spacer. He's just way to small and has a short wingspan to be a effective center out there. His defence is just plain bad. His playing is alright but nothing special he is not no Jokic.

Getting him will just create new problems that we would have to figure out to fix.

The only way I would be okay if we keep Jak as his backup. But even then I would hate it.

Over 70mil allocated to Sabonis and Poeltl is a recipe for disaster. Thought of it makes me nauseous.

[YogurtProducer]

Sabonis is Jak with less defense, but way better offense (shooting, back to the basket game) and rebounding. If you think the raps are amazing with 25 min of Jak, imagine 32 min of Sabonis.

But there is no straight swap of the two. We are gutting two starters for Sabonis.

Would be a horrid move IMO

I have already shared a trade that would not move RJ, only IQ.

Sabonis and Ellis for IQ, Gradey, Ochai and Mogbo.

Gets us under the tax.

PG Shead/Ellis (but practically Scottie or RJ) + Martin/Hepburn
SG RJ/Walter
SF BI/Battle
PF Scottie/CMB
C Sabonis/Jak

Yeah, no trade is happening that leaves us with a PG rotation of a dude shooting 35% from the field and Ellis who is NOT a PG Ellis averages 0.6APG this year ffs

[RaptorPride]

I watched a lot of kings games because of DeMar. Trust me you guys do not want Sabonis. He just hustles hard for rebounds but when he is matched up against a 7 footer or a real rebounder its over for him. They will out rebound him when it matters most. And his offence is just like Jaks he just shoots it alot more than him and is easy to stop in the playoffs. He can hit an occasional open three but he isn't a floor spacer. He's just way to small and has a short wingspan to be a effective center out there. His defence is just plain bad. His playing is alright but nothing special he is not no Jokic.

Getting him will just create new problems that we would have to figure out to fix.

The only way I would be okay if we keep Jak as his backup. But even then I would hate it.

Over 70mil allocated to Sabonis and Poeltl is a recipe for disaster. Thought of it makes me nauseous.

Yea man, Sabonis is not our guy. Because he needs a defensive 7 footer to back him up or the team is screwed. Just not worth it at his contract.

[YogurtProducer]

We need a big man or just another C in general, but Jakob specifically is not "needed" on this team. A lumbering center with no offensive skill and a liability when teams pull him from the paint.? No thanks. This isn't 2015. Dude is 30 but plays like he's 40.

And no, he doesn't offer any paint intimidation. You'd think for his size, he'd be an intimidating factor but he isn't. For his price tag, we should be getting better production.

If anything he's vastly overrated.

Damn, I never thought I would see such bad analysis of a guy but congrats, you did it.

[LoveMyRaps]

I watched a lot of kings games because of DeMar. Trust me you guys do not want Sabonis. He just hustles hard for rebounds but when he is matched up against a 7 footer or a real rebounder its over for him. They will out rebound him when it matters most. And his offence is just like Jaks he just shoots it alot more than him and is easy to stop in the playoffs. He can hit an occasional open three but he isn't a floor spacer. He's just way to small and has a short wingspan to be an effective center out there. His defence is just plain bad. His playing is alright but nothing special he is not no Jokic.


Getting him will just create new problems that we would have to figure out to fix.

The only way I would be okay if we keep Jak as his backup. But even then I would hate it.

Over 70mil allocated to Sabonis and Poeltl is a recipe for disaster. Thought of it makes me nauseous.

Yea man, Sabonis is not our guy. Because he needs a defensive 7 footer to back him up or the team is screwed. Just not worth it at his contract.

I believe you. Let’s turn our attention to acquiring a star point guard instead. The big man market doesn’t intrigue me.

[RaptorPride]

Over 70mil allocated to Sabonis and Poeltl is a recipe for disaster. Thought of it makes me nauseous.

Yea man, Sabonis is not our guy. Because he needs a defensive 7 footer to back him up or the team is screwed. Just not worth it at his contract.

I believe you. Let’s turn our attention to acquiring a star point guard instead. The big man market doesn’t intrigue me.

My guy would be Garland. Maybe LeMelo if he's super super cheap other than that I just keep our team and make a minor trade or two.

[TGM]

[quote="RaptorPride"]I watched a lot of kings games because of DeMar. Trust me, you guys do not want Sabonis. He just hustles hard for rebounds but when he is matched up against a 7 footer or a real rebounder its over for him. They will out rebound him when it matters most. And his offence is just like Jaks he just shoots it alot more than him and is easy to stop in the playoffs. He can hit an occasional open three but he isn't a floor spacer. He's just way to small and has a short wingspan to be an effective center out there. His defence is just plain bad. His playing making is alright but nothing special he is not no Jokic.

Getting him will just create new problems that we would have to figure out to fix.

The only way I would be okay is if we keep Jak as his backup. But even then I would hate it.[/quote]

Don't know what games your talking about. Sabonis has been one of the best rebounders in the league. He is up against 7 footers all year round and out rebounds them cause he has a good nose for the ball. He has been one of the best offensive rebounders in the league. That's an extra 3-4 possessions he is generating for his team. This doesn't include the balls he taps to his teammates for offensive rebounds. That probably puts him at being related to 6-7 extra possessions a game. Apart from the 6-7 possessions he is making a difference on the offensive rebounding side. His ability to haul down rebounds in general is also preventing the opponent from getting offensive rebounds. That's probably like a 10 possession swing. Also, his ability to draw out opposing Cs and put the ball on the ground. His defense may not be like Wemby, but he is not the Pylon people who are claiming him to be. I feel people make these assessments without actually watching him play, but just think big white stiff and therefore cannot defend. Sabonis is a cerebral player that is what the new NBA is about. Look at a guy like Mamba has all the physical tools and should be inhaling every rebound. The guy looks like a 4 year old lost on the street. When Sabonis is matched against Rudy Gobert he is averaging 12.3 rebounds a game. Don't understand what you are saying that when he is matched against a real 7 footer he gets exposed.

If you can get a Sabonis the positives outweigh the negatives.

[CazOnReal]

Sabonis is the center version of Josh Giddey: Empty stats, non-defender that box office watchers see nothing but the high rebounds instead of how bad the rest of the team around him is at grabbing boards.

He

Is not

A winning

Player

The Pacers (very limited) success was in spite of him/due to Oladipo being a star & the Kings got lucky with health the year they won the 3rd seed (They had the same record the season after & were in the play-in).

He doesn't contribute to winning, he's expensive, he doesn't space the floor, he's terrible as a defender and the advanced stats paints a picture of teams being better with him off the floor rather than on with a team's best players.

The team will be worse with Sabonis on it, regardless of who's on the outside in this hypothetical. Period.

[ArthurVandelay]

In the AD thread earlier today when I brought up an IQ for Monk base swap as a possibility, I was about to add on to that post with a Fanspo trade machine outline, and I was going to use Saric+Carter as the additional salary filler required from the Kings, but you pretty much read my mind (except Ellis instead of Carter). I think this is sneakily a pretty realistic possible Plan B assuming the Hawks land AD instead of the Raptors.

IQ+RJ for Sabonis+Monk was also a possibility I thought about because of the Raptors links to him, but I personally don't want Sabonis so I didn't want to speak it into existence by throwing that 2 for 2 out there lol. Siegel throwing it out as a 2 for 3 with Keon Ellis also being part of it is pretty interesting though.

Trading RJ would be a grand mistake

Agreed 100%. He’s our new Demar. Zero reason to move him.

My sarcasm detector is broken…I’m not sure lol

I think RJ at 25 is a better player than DeRozan, or at the very least is in less of a starring role that fits this team better.

I won’t lie and full disclosure, I couldn’t stand DeRozan after 2014.

I don’t think RJ is untouchable but of IQ/Poeltl/RJ, if I had to pick just 1, it is RJ.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I would not include any first for Sabonis (period).

I see people claiming Trae isn’t supposedly a “winning player” who actually CARRIED his team to an ECF and other Playoff appearances as THE engine of the team. Sabonis on the other hand has done absolutely nothing, both IND & SAC were/have been bottom feeders with him as their “best player” and only were Playoff teams either when he was traded away (IND) or when their actual best player was traded away (SAC).

So hell no to including a pick. They want to get rid of Sabonis they can have their own “Kispert” (Gradey) + salary deal lol. In their case they can take a longer salary since it will probably be the only way to retain players.

In his first two full seasons with Sacramento they had their best record since the Peja-CWebb days Last year they were submarined by Rich Paul/De'Aaron Fox. This year he's been injured.

Last three seasons he's been top 10 in VORP, like you just don't see bad or overrated players with that level of consistency. 3 straight seasons of +5 BPM (for reference, this is Scottie's best year and he's at 4). If we could get him without picks or any of our more promising prospects, pull the trigger We need a consolidation trade anyway, or we lose guys for nothing.

[TGM]

I would not include any first for Sabonis (period).

I see people claiming Trae isn’t supposedly a “winning player” who actually CARRIED his team to an ECF and other Playoff appearances as THE engine of the team. Sabonis on the other hand has done absolutely nothing, both IND & SAC were/have been bottom feeders with him as their “best player” and only were Playoff teams either when he was traded away (IND) or when their actual best player was traded away (SAC).

So hell no to including a pick. They want to get rid of Sabonis they can have their own “Kispert” (Gradey) + salary deal lol. In their case they can take a longer salary since it will probably be the only way to retain players.

In his first two full seasons with Sacramento they had their best record since the Peja-CWebb days Last year they were submarined by Rich Paul/De'Aaron Fox. This year he's been injured.

Last three seasons he's been top 10 in VORP, like you just don't see bad or overrated players with that level of consistency. 3 straight seasons of +5 BPM (for reference, this is Scottie's best year and he's at 4). If we could get him without picks or any of our more promising prospects, pull the trigger We need a consolidation trade anyway, or we lose guys for nothing.

Thank you. Finally someone who is not smoking the good stufff and realizes Sabonis is a net positive. Those hating Sabonis now are the same that hated Ingram and said he is injury prone, overpaid, empty stats,not a winner, doesn’t defend.

[arbsn]

I’m in the don’t trade RJ unless is Giannis camp

[Pointgod]

I would not include any first for Sabonis (period).

I see people claiming Trae isn’t supposedly a “winning player” who actually CARRIED his team to an ECF and other Playoff appearances as THE engine of the team. Sabonis on the other hand has done absolutely nothing, both IND & SAC were/have been bottom feeders with him as their “best player” and only were Playoff teams either when he was traded away (IND) or when their actual best player was traded away (SAC).

So hell no to including a pick. They want to get rid of Sabonis they can have their own “Kispert” (Gradey) + salary deal lol. In their case they can take a longer salary since it will probably be the only way to retain players.

This makes no sense. Sabonis has done as much in the playoffs as Ingram and Scottie. Are they not winning players as well? Fun fact he’s has more playoff appearances than Barnes and Ingram combined.

He has his flaws and you can haggle on what it would take to acquire him but a change of scenery’s and playing with much better players in a non dysfunctional organization would improve his game like it’s helped for a lot of players.

Any Raptors fan waiting on trading for a top 10 or even top 15 player is going to be waiting a long time. There is no shortcut to contending

[RoteSchroder]

Trading RJ would be a grand mistake

Agreed 100%. He’s our new Demar. Zero reason to move him.

My sarcasm detector is broken…I’m not sure lol

I think RJ at 25 is a better player than DeRozan, or at the very least is in less of a starring role that fits this team better.

I won’t lie and full disclosure, I couldn’t stand DeRozan after 2014.

I don’t think RJ is untouchable but of IQ/Poeltl/RJ, if I had to pick just 1, it is RJ.

DeMar = mid-range chucker

RJ = catch and shoot 3 pointers + drives in the paint/to the basket

They’re more like opposites

[ConSarnit]

I watched a lot of kings games because of DeMar. Trust me, you guys do not want Sabonis. He just hustles hard for rebounds but when he is matched up against a 7 footer or a real rebounder its over for him. They will out rebound him when it matters most. And his offence is just like Jaks he just shoots it alot more than him and is easy to stop in the playoffs. He can hit an occasional open three but he isn't a floor spacer. He's just way to small and has a short wingspan to be an effective center out there. His defence is just plain bad. His playing making is alright but nothing special he is not no Jokic.

Getting him will just create new problems that we would have to figure out to fix.

The only way I would be okay is if we keep Jak as his backup. But even then I would hate it.

Don't know what games your talking about. Sabonis has been one of the best rebounders in the league. He is up against 7 footers all year round and out rebounds them cause he has a good nose for the ball. He has been one of the best offensive rebounders in the league. That's an extra 3-4 possessions he is generating for his team. This doesn't include the balls he taps to his teammates for offensive rebounds. That probably puts him at being related to 6-7 extra possessions a game. Apart from the 6-7 possessions he is making a difference on the offensive rebounding side. His ability to haul down rebounds in general is also preventing the opponent from getting offensive rebounds. That's probably like a 10 possession swing. Also, his ability to draw out opposing Cs and put the ball on the ground. His defense may not be like Wemby, but he is not the Pylon people who are claiming him to be. I feel people make these assessments without actually watching him play, but just think big white stiff and therefore cannot defend. Sabonis is a cerebral player that is what the new NBA is about. Look at a guy like Mamba has all the physical tools and should be inhaling every rebound. The guy looks like a 4 year old lost on the street. When Sabonis is matched against Rudy Gobert he is averaging 12.3 rebounds a game. Don't understand what you are saying that when he is matched against a real 7 footer he gets exposed.

If you can get a Sabonis the positives outweigh the negatives.

I don’t think you’ve ever watched Sabonis. He is flat out bad at defense and routinely gets worked on that end in the playoffs. Kevon Looney ate his lunch in a playoff series.

He is (by the numbers) a worse offensive rebounder than Poeltl. He regularly has an offensive rebound rate outside of the top 30 centers in the league. No, he is not a great offensive rebounder. Also, balls you tap to teammates count as rebounds, so you’re off there too.

None of the numbers show he’s even an average defender or a great offensive rebounder.

[dhackett1565]

With Scottie at PF, it's pretty obvious any deal for Sabonis would have Jak outgoing and Sabonis would be our C. Not sure I love that, his defence isn't up to snuff for the position. Salary wise it would almost have to be Jak and one of the starting guards and we get Monk or some smattering of smaller pieces back. Does feel like it would need to be a multi team deal.

Not sure I love the fit of Sabonis or Monk enough to really be interested.