Siegel: Toronto trade intel

[ArthurVandelay]

I dont think IQ or Poeltl are below average. They're both in that mid 15th range at their position I'd say. Pretty average starters.

Our bench is currently shooting:

Shead - 32.6%
Walter - 35.8%
Dick - 32.0%
Mamu - 38.1%
CMB - 38.5%

All things considered, that's a fairly decent bench shooting unit. The league average is 35.9%, and our bench has 2 below, 1 average, and 2 above average shooters % wise. The real issue shooting wise off the bench is Shead as typically your PG should be a good shooter, and our "specialist" in Dick is anything but. But Walter/Mamu/CMB have all been fine shooting wise.

Did you read what I said: They are AVERAGE to below average. I’d lean more towards below personally but I also recognize my bias of watching more Raptors games than anyone else.

Yes, which means you view them below average, as you even admit. If average is 15th, and below average is say, 30th. You suggested they are 21st-23rdish. I don't agree with that at all.

The average NBA salary is $11.9m this season

The median salary is $6m this season

$52m and soon to be $60m from those two is disgraceful cap management when you also have Scottie, BI, and RJ.

There is no value from any starter so the two worst really do stand out.

In a league of rookie contracts you can't just look at average and medians and make any sort of freaking conclusions

We currently have 33.6% of our cap tied up in Jak/IQ. By IQ's last year it will be 33.9%.

That is FAR from "disgraceful" cap management. IDK if you've looked around the league, but paying 15-20% of your cap for good starting caliber players is literally what every single NBA team has to do. WE might see a change in the trends now happening with the new CBA, but it is not going to be ANYWHERE near the "average" $11.9m or anything like that.

Also, did you read what I said about consistency? A bench that can’t shoot consistently. The most consistent shooter off the bench has been Mamu. CMB volume way too low to count. But then there is Battle at 48.5% who must have killed Darko’s dog or groped his wife at an early season team party.

You can type up all the stats you want. Anyone who’s watched the games know the bench who actually play can’t shoot a lick consistently outside Mamu.

I mean, that is not true, but okay.

Shooting is inherently inconsistent. Every single NBA player in the entire freaking league is an "inconsistent' shooter because we are talking about something where the elite only get it right 40% of the time. Then when you dial down the sample to "just bench players" you are looking at samples of like 14 shots per night and expecting these to be "consistent".

3 point shooting is NOISY. Even elite players go from hitting multiple 3's to only 1 on any given night. It is just the reality of the type of shot.

Hell, DEN is the best shooting team in the league at 40%. However, that hasn't changed the fact in their 37 games their %'s are all over the place.

<30% - 6 times
30-35% - 6 times
36-40% - 8 times
40-45% - 7 times
46-50% - 5 times
50% - 4 times

Is that not "inconsistent"?

My personal opinion is not how I lumped them. Even though I see them as below average I concede they could be looked at as average. But it doesn’t even matter if they are average or below average, they are paid too much….unless you’re trading Scottie RJ or BI to keep them around.

I stopped reading after your first comment. You remind me of Trump. There is no compromise, no listening to another perspective, no ability to agree to disagree. Just dog fighting for the bone on every point in every topic with every poster. You don’t know it all man. Going to go figure out how features of the forum work now. Lol

[Merit]

What nonsense. Obviously in a defensive late game scenario you go with Jak. Offensively, you would go with Sabonis, depending on size. Otherwise you’d go with Scottie.

Wait, so now we are keeping both Sabonis and Jak and paying $62M to two guys we cant even play together?

IQ is the cost for acquiring Sabonis. I’m not saying he’s a better player than Ellis. They are DIFFERENT players. You have to give something to get something. Perhaps the better argument is between Devin Carter and Ellis being better fits for the Raptors. I go with Ellis, but YMMV.

They are very different players - and we would lose our only movement shooting threat in IQ. Teams would pack the **** out of the paint and we would see a massive offensive regression.

You might not see an argument for Ellis, and that’s totally okay. I’m focused on winning. According to fanspo we add 7 wins to our team when trading IQ/Ochai/Gradey for Sabonis/Ellis.

WTF does Fanspo know? 0 chance we get SEVEN GAMES better if we are relying on Shead to be our PG

Now of course we would have to utilize both players effectively and would be up schitt’s creek if Shead went down with a major injury. However, if you think we have 3x guards on two way deals just because... well, I’d encourage you to imagine why that might be the case.

I can guarantee you our 2-ways are simply the 3 best guys we think have the ability to develop. We are not rostering 2-way guards because we have any expectation they will contribute in any fashion this year.

We agree to disagree. The points you’re currently laughing at are the exact points I’ve been making all along. As for packing the paint, you’re out to lunch dude. We lose no shooting when switching from IQ to Ellis in the starting lineup. We improve our shooting when switching from Jak to Sabonis. We improve our rotation significantly when placing Mamu back at PF and moving CMB around SF/PF/C. Most players on our team with the exception of Jak can play multiple positions.

Ellis/RJ/BI/Scottie/Sabonis vs. IQ/RJ/BI/Scottie/Jak is at worst a wash in terms of shooting.

Shead/Walter/Battle/Mamu/Jak or Shead/Walter/Battle/CMB/Mamu is better than Shead/Ochai/Gradey/CMB/Mamu. If gradey wasn’t absolute trash, this would be a wash at worst too.

Incidentally, our bench is much improved IMO. We can always trade for an undervalued asset still. My vote continues to be a move for D’Angelo Russell.

[YogurtProducer]

Did you read what I said: They are AVERAGE to below average. I’d lean more towards below personally but I also recognize my bias of watching more Raptors games than anyone else.

Yes, which means you view them below average, as you even admit. If average is 15th, and below average is say, 30th. You suggested they are 21st-23rdish. I don't agree with that at all.

The average NBA salary is $11.9m this season

The median salary is $6m this season

$52m and soon to be $60m from those two is disgraceful cap management when you also have Scottie, BI, and RJ.

There is no value from any starter so the two worst really do stand out.

In a league of rookie contracts you can't just look at average and medians and make any sort of freaking conclusions

We currently have 33.6% of our cap tied up in Jak/IQ. By IQ's last year it will be 33.9%.

That is FAR from "disgraceful" cap management. IDK if you've looked around the league, but paying 15-20% of your cap for good starting caliber players is literally what every single NBA team has to do. WE might see a change in the trends now happening with the new CBA, but it is not going to be ANYWHERE near the "average" $11.9m or anything like that.

Also, did you read what I said about consistency? A bench that can’t shoot consistently. The most consistent shooter off the bench has been Mamu. CMB volume way too low to count. But then there is Battle at 48.5% who must have killed Darko’s dog or groped his wife at an early season team party.

You can type up all the stats you want. Anyone who’s watched the games know the bench who actually play can’t shoot a lick consistently outside Mamu.

I mean, that is not true, but okay.

Shooting is inherently inconsistent. Every single NBA player in the entire freaking league is an "inconsistent' shooter because we are talking about something where the elite only get it right 40% of the time. Then when you dial down the sample to "just bench players" you are looking at samples of like 14 shots per night and expecting these to be "consistent".

3 point shooting is NOISY. Even elite players go from hitting multiple 3's to only 1 on any given night. It is just the reality of the type of shot.

Hell, DEN is the best shooting team in the league at 40%. However, that hasn't changed the fact in their 37 games their %'s are all over the place.

<30% - 6 times
30-35% - 6 times
36-40% - 8 times
40-45% - 7 times
46-50% - 5 times
50% - 4 times

Is that not "inconsistent"?

My personal opinion is not how I lumped them. Even though I see them as below average I concede they could be looked at as average. But it doesn’t even matter if they are average or below average, they are paid too much….unless you’re trading Scottie RJ or BI to keep them around.

I stopped reading after your first comment. You remind me of Trump. There is no compromise, no listening to another perspective, no ability to agree to disagree. Just dog fighting for the bone on every point in every topic with every poster. You don’t know it all man. Going to go figure out how features of the forum work now. Lol

alright man. You got your opinion (that you put without any support or context), and I give mine, but for some reason "I have no compromise".

Maybe provide a little bit more than just your anecdotal eye test evidence if you want to actually engage in a conversation with someone and "change their mind". Why should I change my mind? Just because you say something is "disgraceful"? Isn't it better practice to actually like... investigate how the rest of the league operates and see where their contracts fall in comparison to other similar players?

[YogurtProducer]

We agree to disagree. The points you’re currently laughing at are the exact points I’ve been making all along. As for packing the paint, you’re out to lunch dude. We lose no shooting when switching from IQ to Ellis in the starting lineup. We improve our shooting when switching from Jak to Sabonis. We improve our rotation significantly when placing Mamu back at PF and moving CMB around SF/PF/C. Most players on our team with the exception of Jak can play multiple positions.

Ellis/RJ/BI/Scottie/Sabonis vs. IQ/RJ/BI/Scottie/Jak is at worst a wash in terms of shooting.

I mean, if we cant even agree on the facts there is no point in discussing opinions.

IQ is on a completely different planet of shooting than Ellis is.

Sabonis is not a shooting threat that really is even worth discussing. No one cares about a guy who shoots 2 3's a game and has hit 133 3's in his last 242 games. Even if he does it on 40%, no one cares if a guy is not actually going to shoot them.

It is not a wash, because if IQ is not in that lineup it completely changes how teams defend us. Teams will have no issues sagging off guys because Ellis is not the same threat that IQ is.

[Merit]

We agree to disagree. The points you’re currently laughing at are the exact points I’ve been making all along. As for packing the paint, you’re out to lunch dude. We lose no shooting when switching from IQ to Ellis in the starting lineup. We improve our shooting when switching from Jak to Sabonis. We improve our rotation significantly when placing Mamu back at PF and moving CMB around SF/PF/C. Most players on our team with the exception of Jak can play multiple positions.

Ellis/RJ/BI/Scottie/Sabonis vs. IQ/RJ/BI/Scottie/Jak is at worst a wash in terms of shooting.

I mean, if we cant even agree on the facts there is no point in discussing opinions.

IQ is on a completely different planet of shooting than Ellis is.

Sabonis is not a shooting threat that really is even worth discussing. No one cares about a guy who shoots 2 3's a game and has hit 133 3's in his last 242 games. Even if he does it on 40%, no one cares if a guy is not actually going to shoot them.

It is not a wash, because if IQ is not in that lineup it completely changes how teams defend us. Teams will have no issues sagging off guys because Ellis is not the same threat that IQ is.

Your facts are your opinions. Ellis is a lesser threat, but the combination of Sabonis and Ellis is a greater shooting threat with way more shooting versatility than IQ and Jak. Again, we agree to disagree.

Plus, it’s a TEAM game. The spacing/true shooting/overall increased offensive efficiency created by Sabonis improves shooting elsewhere. Like... your points have merit in isolation, but you consistently miss the concept of the collective. I stand firm in my opinion, which I’m not pretending to be a fact - unlike you.

[ArthurVandelay]

We agree to disagree. The points you’re currently laughing at are the exact points I’ve been making all along. As for packing the paint, you’re out to lunch dude. We lose no shooting when switching from IQ to Ellis in the starting lineup. We improve our shooting when switching from Jak to Sabonis. We improve our rotation significantly when placing Mamu back at PF and moving CMB around SF/PF/C. Most players on our team with the exception of Jak can play multiple positions.

Ellis/RJ/BI/Scottie/Sabonis vs. IQ/RJ/BI/Scottie/Jak is at worst a wash in terms of shooting.

I mean, if we cant even agree on the facts there is no point in discussing opinions.

IQ is on a completely different planet of shooting than Ellis is.

Sabonis is not a shooting threat that really is even worth discussing. No one cares about a guy who shoots 2 3's a game and has hit 133 3's in his last 242 games. Even if he does it on 40%, no one cares if a guy is not actually going to shoot them.

It is not a wash, because if IQ is not in that lineup it completely changes how teams defend us. Teams will have no issues sagging off guys because Ellis is not the same threat that IQ is.

Your facts are your opinions. Ellis is a lesser threat, but the combination of Sabonis and Ellis is a greater shooting threat with way more shooting versatility than IQ and Jak. Again, we agree to disagree.

Plus, it’s a TEAM game. The spacing created by Sabonis improves shooting elsewhere. Like... your points have merit in isolation, but you consistently miss the concept of the collective. I stand firm in my opinion, which I’m not pretending to be a fact - unlike you.

When looking at Sabonis there is also the perspective of shot diet rehabilitation, similar to what they did with RJ.

How he was used elsewhere isn’t a guarantee how he’d be used in Toronto. He’s shown he has decent form and ability to hit a good percentage in lower volume. Why wouldn’t he be used more as a shooter and up his attempts when you have Scottie looking for mismatches in the post, BI operating midrange, and RJ driving?

That isn’t to expect him to become a high volume sniper. Just take them when they are open within the flow. And if teams start taking it away, he’s a very good passer with good ability to read the court (not as good as his dad though!) and, as you said, it will only open the court for his teammates.

Of course that all goes out the window if he can’t sustain the high 30-low 40 percentage of the last 3 seasons (before this year, small sample). But I don’t see why he couldn’t.

[YogurtProducer]

I mean, if we cant even agree on the facts there is no point in discussing opinions.

IQ is on a completely different planet of shooting than Ellis is.

Sabonis is not a shooting threat that really is even worth discussing. No one cares about a guy who shoots 2 3's a game and has hit 133 3's in his last 242 games. Even if he does it on 40%, no one cares if a guy is not actually going to shoot them.

It is not a wash, because if IQ is not in that lineup it completely changes how teams defend us. Teams will have no issues sagging off guys because Ellis is not the same threat that IQ is.

Your facts are your opinions. Ellis is a lesser threat, but the combination of Sabonis and Ellis is a greater shooting threat with way more shooting versatility than IQ and Jak. Again, we agree to disagree.

Plus, it’s a TEAM game. The spacing created by Sabonis improves shooting elsewhere. Like... your points have merit in isolation, but you consistently miss the concept of the collective. I stand firm in my opinion, which I’m not pretending to be a fact - unlike you.

When looking at Sabonis there is also the perspective of shot diet rehabilitation, similar to what they did with RJ.

How he was used elsewhere isn’t a guarantee how he’d be used in Toronto. He’s shown he has decent form and ability to hit a good percentage in lower volume. Why wouldn’t he be used more as a shooter and up his attempts when you have Scottie looking for mismatches in the post, BI operating midrange, and RJ driving?

That isn’t to expect him to become a high volume sniper. Just take them when they are open within the flow. And if teams start taking it away, he’s a very good passer with good ability to read the court (not as good as his dad though!) and, as you said, it will only open the court for his teammates.

Of course that all goes out the window if he can’t sustain the high 30-low 40 percentage of the last 3 seasons (before this year, small sample). But I don’t see why he couldn’t.

There is really no point in trading for Sabonis if you are looking to have him shoot a ton of 3's. He is such a strong interior piece scoring wise that pulling him to shoot 3's is just a really bad usage of him.

The guy dominates the interior, drawing fouls and grabbing boards, and rolling to the rim that using him as a spot up shooter just limits a ton of his offensive value.

He is just not a great fit with us IMO. I mean, in theory he is if it was possible to just do a straight Jak -> Sabonis swap, but with everything else you'd have to give up it doesn't make a lot of sense.

FWIW - hes taken more than 2 3's a game 4 times in his career. He's only shot better than 32% once.

Everything you said about Sabonis is true -- but it also ignores the losses you will suffer by playing Shead instead of IQ (playing Ellis as the 1 is just a non starter lol). IQ/Jak >>>>> Shead/Sabonis from a shooting and spacing perspective.

[ConSarnit]

I mean, if we cant even agree on the facts there is no point in discussing opinions.

IQ is on a completely different planet of shooting than Ellis is.

Sabonis is not a shooting threat that really is even worth discussing. No one cares about a guy who shoots 2 3's a game and has hit 133 3's in his last 242 games. Even if he does it on 40%, no one cares if a guy is not actually going to shoot them.

It is not a wash, because if IQ is not in that lineup it completely changes how teams defend us. Teams will have no issues sagging off guys because Ellis is not the same threat that IQ is.

Your facts are your opinions. Ellis is a lesser threat, but the combination of Sabonis and Ellis is a greater shooting threat with way more shooting versatility than IQ and Jak. Again, we agree to disagree.

Plus, it’s a TEAM game. The spacing created by Sabonis improves shooting elsewhere. Like... your points have merit in isolation, but you consistently miss the concept of the collective. I stand firm in my opinion, which I’m not pretending to be a fact - unlike you.

When looking at Sabonis there is also the perspective of shot diet rehabilitation, similar to what they did with RJ.

How he was used elsewhere isn’t a guarantee how he’d be used in Toronto. He’s shown he has decent form and ability to hit a good percentage in lower volume. Why wouldn’t he be used more as a shooter and up his attempts when you have Scottie looking for mismatches in the post, BI operating midrange, and RJ driving?

That isn’t to expect him to become a high volume sniper. Just take them when they are open within the flow. And if teams start taking it away, he’s a very good passer with good ability to read the court (not as good as his dad though!) and, as you said, it will only open the court for his teammates.

Of course that all goes out the window if he can’t sustain the high 30-low 40 percentage of the last 3 seasons (before this year, small sample). But I don’t see why he couldn’t.

You guys need to go watch Sabonis’ shooting form. He takes forever to set up and has a low release. His shooting isn’t scalable. He’s like JV in that his form isn’t conducive to any type of volume.

The guy only takes the most wide open 3’s possible. Now why is that? Because no one is guarding him. The 0.5 3’s he makes a game isn’t worth the trade off of his man completely sagging into the paint.

Sabonis 3pt shooting is not a weapon. It’s a “I have to take this shot because no defender is within 10ft of me” type play. Teams have absolutely no respect for it.

[Jerry Lucas]

I would do IQ and Jakob for Sabonis and Monk. Thats only deal worth looking at with the kings

The problem with this framework is that you would have to also throw in Ochai and Gradey for the salary match to work, making it a 4 for 2, when the Raptors are already at a 14-man roster as is.




Ignore the trade failing, Fanspo just hasn't updated Poeltl yet.

[WWSRD]

I would do IQ and Jakob for Sabonis and Monk. Thats only deal worth looking at with the kings

The problem with this framework is that you would have to also throw in Ochai and Gradey for the salary match to work, making it a 4 for 2, when the Raptors are already at a 14-man roster as is.




Ignore the trade failing, Fanspo just hasn't updated Poeltl yet.

Guessing that trade requires some FRPs from the Raptors. I'd do a couple with lottery protections.

My issue is:
- You have to start Sabonis, Barnes and Ingram then. So that's 3 spots.
- You can't take your top 10 pick, who's playing well and send him back to the bench. So CMB needs to start.
- So now you have RJ, Monk and Shead. No issue with Monk or Shead off the bench. That fits their play level but RJ is your guard on the floor? Monk and Shead off the bench?

Actually this does work having typed it out. Between Sabonis, Barnes and CMB...lots of passing/creation. Barnes and CMB cover Sabonis' weaknesses.
Ingram and RJ give you scoring punch.

Bring Shead in when you need that real PG feel. Bring Monk in when you want more shooting.

[ArthurVandelay]

I would do IQ and Jakob for Sabonis and Monk. Thats only deal worth looking at with the kings

The problem with this framework is that you would have to also throw in Ochai and Gradey for the salary match to work, making it a 4 for 2, when the Raptors are already at a 14-man roster as is.




Ignore the trade failing, Fanspo just hasn't updated Poeltl yet.

As they get past trade deadline, Im not sure how accurate that tax cushion is but theoretically they could sign one of the 2-ways to a prorated minimum and sign AJ Lawson to a minimum. That would be pretty close to staying under the tax. Deals would probably be non-guaranteed for next season too so they get a head start on training camp.

[Tha Cynic]

This the fantasy trade thread?

[Pointgod]

I would do IQ and Jakob for Sabonis and Monk. Thats only deal worth looking at with the kings

The problem with this framework is that you would have to also throw in Ochai and Gradey for the salary match to work, making it a 4 for 2, when the Raptors are already at a 14-man roster as is.




Ignore the trade failing, Fanspo just hasn't updated Poeltl yet.

Guessing that trade requires some FRPs from the Raptors. I'd do a couple with lottery protections.

My issue is:
- You have to start Sabonis, Barnes and Ingram then. So that's 3 spots.
- You can't take your top 10 pick, who's playing well and send him back to the bench. So CMB needs to start.
- So now you have RJ, Monk and Shead. No issue with Monk or Shead off the bench. That fits their play level but RJ is your guard on the floor? Monk and Shead off the bench?

Actually this does work having typed it out. Between Sabonis, Barnes and CMB...lots of passing/creation. Barnes and CMB cover Sabonis' weaknesses.
Ingram and RJ give you scoring punch.

Bring Shead in when you need that real PG feel. Bring Monk in when you want more shooting.

Any trade we make with the Kings we have to push for Devin Carter. And of course CMB goes to the bench. You start Shead and you live with what he gives you.

You have a multiple guard options off the bench with Monk, Carter, Jakobe. I think we could probably get a back up PG pretty easily and we still need a back up big but we’ve instantly upgraded our bench.

[Merit]

Your facts are your opinions. Ellis is a lesser threat, but the combination of Sabonis and Ellis is a greater shooting threat with way more shooting versatility than IQ and Jak. Again, we agree to disagree.

Plus, it’s a TEAM game. The spacing created by Sabonis improves shooting elsewhere. Like... your points have merit in isolation, but you consistently miss the concept of the collective. I stand firm in my opinion, which I’m not pretending to be a fact - unlike you.

When looking at Sabonis there is also the perspective of shot diet rehabilitation, similar to what they did with RJ.

How he was used elsewhere isn’t a guarantee how he’d be used in Toronto. He’s shown he has decent form and ability to hit a good percentage in lower volume. Why wouldn’t he be used more as a shooter and up his attempts when you have Scottie looking for mismatches in the post, BI operating midrange, and RJ driving?

That isn’t to expect him to become a high volume sniper. Just take them when they are open within the flow. And if teams start taking it away, he’s a very good passer with good ability to read the court (not as good as his dad though!) and, as you said, it will only open the court for his teammates.

Of course that all goes out the window if he can’t sustain the high 30-low 40 percentage of the last 3 seasons (before this year, small sample). But I don’t see why he couldn’t.

You guys need to go watch Sabonis’ shooting form. He takes forever to set up and has a low release. His shooting isn’t scalable. He’s like JV in that his form isn’t conducive to any type of volume.

The guy only takes the most wide open 3’s possible. Now why is that? Because no one is guarding him. The 0.5 3’s he makes a game isn’t worth the trade off of his man completely sagging into the paint.

Sabonis 3pt shooting is not a weapon. It’s a “I have to take this shot because no defender is within 10ft of me” type play. Teams have absolutely no respect for it.

And again, that’s totally okay. That 3 is a break in case of emergency play. It’s at least available, unlike Jak. Is he likely to be a sniper? No. Can he take a shot at the end of the clock? Sure.

The point ArthurVandelay made above about shot diet also applies. Does he make the team better overall with him on it and with IQ off it, IMO, yes. That’s the bottom line, really.

As for starting Ellis or starting Shead, we likely start Shead. When Ellis comes in he will guard the point of attack, will not be setting up the offense, and will be waiting to be assisted on 3’s. If you don’t want to call him a Point Guard, don’t. Call him a wing. Frankly, I don’t care what you call him. That’s what his role will be. And that role makes a world of sense when we have 4 other mouths to feed in the starting lineup in RJ/BI/Scottie/Sabonis.

EDIT: and in case it isn’t abundantly clear - if Giannis is available and you can trade IQ and Jak for him, that’s a must make trade. We figure everything else out later. My current fave aside from Giannis is Sabonis, and he’d also be a solid candidate to move to Milwaukee down the road if that option comes to pass. So again, IMO - Sabonis and Ellis > IQ, Ochai and Gradey. It also frees up time for Walter and CMB.

[Merit]

The problem with this framework is that you would have to also throw in Ochai and Gradey for the salary match to work, making it a 4 for 2, when the Raptors are already at a 14-man roster as is.




Ignore the trade failing, Fanspo just hasn't updated Poeltl yet.

Guessing that trade requires some FRPs from the Raptors. I'd do a couple with lottery protections.

My issue is:
- You have to start Sabonis, Barnes and Ingram then. So that's 3 spots.
- You can't take your top 10 pick, who's playing well and send him back to the bench. So CMB needs to start.
- So now you have RJ, Monk and Shead. No issue with Monk or Shead off the bench. That fits their play level but RJ is your guard on the floor? Monk and Shead off the bench?

Actually this does work having typed it out. Between Sabonis, Barnes and CMB...lots of passing/creation. Barnes and CMB cover Sabonis' weaknesses.
Ingram and RJ give you scoring punch.

Bring Shead in when you need that real PG feel. Bring Monk in when you want more shooting.

Any trade we make with the Kings we have to push for Devin Carter. And of course CMB goes to the bench. You start Shead and you live with what he gives you.

You have a multiple guard options off the bench with Monk, Carter, Jakobe. I think we could probably get a back up PG pretty easily and we still need a back up big but we’ve instantly upgraded our bench.

We can make a trade for Carter work, but it’s either Carter or Ellis. Or if you choose to include Jak then more needs to come our way.

[Merit]

Here’s one possibility of a 3 way trade:

To Toronto: Sabonis/Gafford/Russell/Ellis. Young vets and a reclamation project in Russell. +11 wins according to Fanspo, and that’s a FACT. lol

To Sacramento: IQ/Jak/(Mogbo?). Cost certainty, youth movement.

To Dallas: Ochai/Gradey/Devin Carter. Youth and shooting because they’re capped out. Balances their team.

Works in the checker once it accounts for Jak being able to be traded. We’re over the tax, but under the apron. If we want more tax space, we move Mogbo to Sacramento. Trade still works and we are 1.9 mil under the tax.

Toronto Roster:

PG D’Angelo Russell/Shead
SG RJ/Walter
SF BI/Ellis/Battle
PF Scottie/CMB
C Sabonis/Gafford

[AreBe]

2 tedious and repetitive points that need stressing:
1. No trading kids and pick for geezers. What does it take for Toronto sports fans to learn that trading kids and picks for geezers never, ever works. Look at the Leafs. Look at the Clippers. Learn from them, and do the opposite-hoard kids and picks!
2. You know the guy on the Raptors that you think sucks? Well, other GMs see what you see too! Every GM has paid-for access to analytics web pages and have thier own in-house analytics team. They all watch game film. They all have access to Google- the days of suckering a team and unloading your garbage for their gold are long over. Basically, because everyone has the EXACT SAME INFORMATION, trades are very difficult to pull off- teams may value different factors, and that may be a reason why some trades happen, but nobody is trading a star in their prime for another team's problems and question marks.

[Courtside]

Yes, which means you view them below average, as you even admit. If average is 15th, and below average is say, 30th. You suggested they are 21st-23rdish. I don't agree with that at all.

In a league of rookie contracts you can't just look at average and medians and make any sort of freaking conclusions

We currently have 33.6% of our cap tied up in Jak/IQ. By IQ's last year it will be 33.9%.

That is FAR from "disgraceful" cap management. IDK if you've looked around the league, but paying 15-20% of your cap for good starting caliber players is literally what every single NBA team has to do. WE might see a change in the trends now happening with the new CBA, but it is not going to be ANYWHERE near the "average" $11.9m or anything like that.

I mean, that is not true, but okay.

Shooting is inherently inconsistent. Every single NBA player in the entire freaking league is an "inconsistent' shooter because we are talking about something where the elite only get it right 40% of the time. Then when you dial down the sample to "just bench players" you are looking at samples of like 14 shots per night and expecting these to be "consistent".

3 point shooting is NOISY. Even elite players go from hitting multiple 3's to only 1 on any given night. It is just the reality of the type of shot.

Hell, DEN is the best shooting team in the league at 40%. However, that hasn't changed the fact in their 37 games their %'s are all over the place.

<30% - 6 times
30-35% - 6 times
36-40% - 8 times
40-45% - 7 times
46-50% - 5 times
50% - 4 times

Is that not "inconsistent"?

My personal opinion is not how I lumped them. Even though I see them as below average I concede they could be looked at as average. But it doesn’t even matter if they are average or below average, they are paid too much….unless you’re trading Scottie RJ or BI to keep them around.

I stopped reading after your first comment. You remind me of Trump. There is no compromise, no listening to another perspective, no ability to agree to disagree. Just dog fighting for the bone on every point in every topic with every poster. You don’t know it all man. Going to go figure out how features of the forum work now. Lol

alright man. You got your opinion (that you put without any support or context), and I give mine, but for some reason "I have no compromise".

Maybe provide a little bit more than just your anecdotal eye test evidence if you want to actually engage in a conversation with someone and "change their mind". Why should I change my mind? Just because you say something is "disgraceful"? Isn't it better practice to actually like... investigate how the rest of the league operates and see where their contracts fall in comparison to other similar players?

That comment by him was all projection/confession. You're good.

[Kurtz]

2 tedious and repetitive points that need stressing:
1. No trading kids and pick for geezers. What does it take for Toronto sports fans to learn that trading kids and picks for geezers never, ever works. Look at the Leafs. Look at the Clippers. Learn from them, and do the opposite-hoard kids and picks!
2. You know the guy on the Raptors that you think sucks? Well, other GMs see what you see too! Every GM has paid-for access to analytics web pages and have thier own in-house analytics team. They all watch game film. They all have access to Google- the days of suckering a team and unloading your garbage for their gold are long over. Basically, because everyone has the EXACT SAME INFORMATION, trades are very difficult to pull off- teams may value different factors, and that may be a reason why some trades happen, but nobody is trading a star in their prime for another team's problems and question marks.

And yet, the league sees plenty of star trades, and many times the deals are clearly lopsided.

[Tripod]

We won't be doing a big trade where our roster turns over 4/5 guys. I expect 2 at most