PG: The Immanuel Quickley Show

[tsherkin]

grumpiest 26-19 fanbase ever?

Lol. True. As a day 1 season ticket holder through 2003... what a change...

It's sad. We're winning. I made a note about this earlier, but we're on 47-win pace. Remember how excited we were when Vince took us to 45 wins in 2000, and 47 the year after? Our first playoff appearances? And then when BC and Bosh got us back there with Anthony Parker and Garbo, Calderon and Ford?

And then it wasn't until Lowry and DDR got going that we got back there. And now we're back on that pace, and we SHOULD be thrilled, but some are getting a little greedy and cynical, I think.

[Tha Cynic]

The reason Shead and IQ works is because they typically play together when RJ is out. Without RJ you’re relying on Ochai, Dick, Walter and sometimes Watson. None of these guys can create or be an outlet. Shead can at least run plays, dribble penetrate and set up guys to take up some of the slack you lose in RJ. Shead sucks at shooting but he can dribble and he can create for other which the other bench guys can’t do. Shead is a backup until he becomes a good shooter.

I think we all agree IQ is no Steve Nash, and the way Raptors run their offense they typically rely on balance. When RJ is out it does force others to take on more playmaking and IQ isn’t great with quick decisions when he has the ball and has to make a play other than shoot, but generally the Raptors are better with him and that’s been the case his entire career in the league. Yesterday he took the shots he normally takes and made them. We just need him to be accurate and play within the system.

[evenflow]

The hoops that some of y’all are jumping through to give Shead credit for IQ having an historical shooting night is wild. The only thing that Shead helped with last night was he took the assignment of defending Steph. Obviously that helps keep IQ fresh, but it’s no different than saying “IQ has less of an offensive burden when RJ (as well as Ingram and Scottie) are healthy. Just weird behaviour to always give credit to the role player off the bench instead of the guy that was on fire.

Most efficient 40 point game of all time (and had 10 assists I guess by accident since Shead was "running the offense") and its just back handed compliments. IQ gets so much flak for a team thats probably exceeding expectations considering the injuries. Its not even like his advanced stats/underlying metrics are bad either. Youd think he was playing like Malachi Flynn when he has a 1.9 EPM and 2nd on the team in VORP.

Yeah IQ has gotten way to much hate around here for absolutely no reason. His shooting woes are legit but as last night shows, this board focuses more on the #'s in the box score than anything else. You can throw all the evidence in the world they are out to lunch and they triple down.

We have gotten to the point where it is just buzzwords (He just runs the offence better!) with absolutely no basis or support.

This is just not accurate. IQ is being criticized because of the role he is being asked to play not because he lacks talent.

Most of the critique, from what I've seen, comes from people looking at how IQ performs as a starting PG and coming to the realization that he is going to be a liability during the post-season as a PG.

It is about a simple question. Can we win a championship with IQ as our starting PG? I think that those who are critical of him as a PG realize that we can't, so we might as well move on from the experiment and find another solution that will allow us to achieve our ultimate goal.

There was good example last night of why people hold this view. It was the fastbreak where IQ had Grady on his right and Mamu on his left. He passed the ball to Mamu instead of Grady, which would have been the correct play. He didn't recognize the correct play quick enough and by the time he was able to process it, the only play he felt comfortable making was the pass to Mamu.

Also I have doubts that he has the skill to make that pass to Gradey. He really isn't a good passer and can't really recall a time when he has made a one handed pass, almost all his passes are with two hands which is severely limiting to making the correct reads on offense.

Thing is though, I think he could help us win a championship with him as a 6th man/SG. He is very talented, he's just in the wrong role.

[Jadoogar]

THIS is what shooting variance looks like. 62% from three from the 30th rank team.
On the other hand, warriors are absolutely cooked. They were going to struggle as is but without Butler, are they even going to make the playoffs?

[earthtone]

It is about a simple question. Can we win a championship with IQ as our starting PG? I think that those who are critical of him as a PG realize that we can't, so we might as well move on from the experiment and find another solution that will allow us to achieve our ultimate goal.

We’ve won 2 playoff games in the past 5 seasons, you think we should be holding players to championship-or-bust standards?

[WWSRD]

It is about a simple question. Can we win a championship with IQ as our starting PG? I think that those who are critical of him as a PG realize that we can't, so we might as well move on from the experiment and find another solution that will allow us to achieve our ultimate goal.

We’ve won 2 playoff games in the past 5 seasons, you think we should be holding players to championship-or-bust standards?

If you pay a guy $35million to start at PG, then you should feel he can start on a championship team. More importantly, he can't be PREVENTING you from building a championship team by clogging up your cap.

I'm pretty sure Bobby thinks he can get 80% of IQ production for 15% of the money. Shead is kind of proving that this season.

[FOB]

grumpiest 26-19 fanbase ever?

Lol. True. As a day 1 season ticket holder through 2003... what a change...

It's sad. We're winning. I made a note about this earlier, but we're on 47-win pace. Remember how excited we were when Vince took us to 45 wins in 2000, and 47 the year after? Our first playoff appearances? And then when BC and Bosh got us back there with Anthony Parker and Garbo, Calderon and Ford?

And then it wasn't until Lowry and DDR got going that we got back there. And now we're back on that pace, and we SHOULD be thrilled, but some are getting a little greedy and cynical, I think.

...and we're doing it with multiple starters out over long stretches and not having made any all-in moves at all yet!

I'd love to see how far we can go with Jak and RJ back, and I wouldn't be mad about a competitive first- or second round exit at all. It's a perfectly normal phase in the organic building of a team that might try to contend in a year or two.

[Madvillainy2004]

RJ has had a case of being slightly close to Ingram but he has missed too many games for that. The entire argument was IQ was the 2nd best raptor according to analytics and my response is thats ridiculous. Its Ingram/Scottie and then a considerable gap between the rest.

I mean it is true. Analytically our team is IQ --> Barnes --> RJ --> Ingram

I think Barnes is kind of unarguable as our best player this year, but Ingram really hasn't been "that" much better than IQ and RJ that there is no discussion on who the 2nd best has been.

Does Ingram take the hardest shots? Yep. Does Ingram make shots IQ + RJ cant? Also yep.

But there are two sides of the floor, and a lot more to basketball than just PPG. Ingram has the most PPG on the team, but he also has been the least efficient of the 4, the worst playmaker (maybe that is RJ), the worst defender, and also the most turnover prone.

But I would say our first course of business if we are ever in a "trade for a star" phase is to move Ingram, not IQ or RJ. Ingram is not good enough offensively to offset his defense, and that gets to be even more of a problem if he goes down the pecking order.

Theres a reason why analytics for the most part havent taken off in basketball like baseball, its just too hard to quantify in a team sport.

I can easily say Barnes is 1 and Ingram is 2 on our team with no one else even in the discussion either to due performance or injuries. This isnt even debatable to me lol.

How is it not debatable? Were acting like Ingram is KD or something. I dont think hes been "bad" but theres 2 ends of the court and Ingrams defense has always been a drag on his overall value. IQ guards ball handlers so its easy to nitpick his defense instead seeing Ingram watch guys go for backdoor cuts or is too lost to rotate. Ingram occasionally can make plays cause of his length but his motor and IQ on that end has always been bad. And i don't think hes enough of an offensive engine for people to hand wave away his bad defense (like we can do for guys like Brunson/Luka/Mitchell).

Offensively he kinda sucks as a playmaker lol hes at 163 assists to 119 turnovers (for comparison IQ is at 261 assists to 71 turnovers). Scoring wise he has a useful skillset in that he can take a lot of midrange jumpshots and hit them at a reasonable clip. But his lack of rim pressure puts a cap on his overall efficiency which is worse than IQs and pretty mediocre as far as 1st option scorers go.

Even in his on/off stuff is just meh +0.9 per 100 with him on and were actually +1.8 per 100 with him on the bench. Some of that is garbage time noise but hes not exactly driving a ton of winning ball. This probably came off as overally negative but i think you gotta look past just PPG to see what Ingram really brings to the table and it paints a pretty meh picture overall.

[nikster]

Most efficient 40 point game of all time (and had 10 assists I guess by accident since Shead was "running the offense") and its just back handed compliments. IQ gets so much flak for a team thats probably exceeding expectations considering the injuries. Its not even like his advanced stats/underlying metrics are bad either. Youd think he was playing like Malachi Flynn when he has a 1.9 EPM and 2nd on the team in VORP.

Yeah IQ has gotten way to much hate around here for absolutely no reason. His shooting woes are legit but as last night shows, this board focuses more on the #'s in the box score than anything else. You can throw all the evidence in the world they are out to lunch and they triple down.

We have gotten to the point where it is just buzzwords (He just runs the offence better!) with absolutely no basis or support.

This is just not accurate. IQ is being criticized because of the role he is being asked to play not because he lacks talent.

Most of the critique, from what I've seen, comes from people looking at how IQ performs as a starting PG and coming to the realization that he is going to be a liability during the post-season as a PG.

It is about a simple question. Can we win a championship with IQ as our starting PG? I think that those who are critical of him as a PG realize that we can't, so we might as well move on from the experiment and find another solution that will allow us to achieve our ultimate goal.

There was good example last night of why people hold this view. It was the fastbreak where IQ had Grady on his right and Mamu on his left. He passed the ball to Mamu instead of Grady, which would have been the correct play. He didn't recognize the correct play quick enough and by the time he was able to process it, the only play he felt comfortable making was the pass to Mamu.

Also I have doubts that he has the skill to make that pass to Gradey. He really isn't a good passer and can't really recall a time when he has made a one handed pass, almost all his passes are with two hands which is severely limiting to making the correct reads on offense.

Thing is though, I think he could help us win a championship with him as a 6th man/SG. He is very talented, he's just in the wrong role.

That's not a simple question and I thinkt eh discussion around "can x player be a championship starter" are always so simplistic.

Contenders make it or win titles all the time with players as good or worse than IQ. Is Aaron Nesmith a championship SG? Derrick Jones JR a championship wing? 38 year old Al Horford a championship C?

IQ is a good 3 point shooter, good secondary playmaker and is at least solid defensively. There is no reason he can't be a stater on a championship team

[Madvillainy2004]

Yeah IQ has gotten way to much hate around here for absolutely no reason. His shooting woes are legit but as last night shows, this board focuses more on the #'s in the box score than anything else. You can throw all the evidence in the world they are out to lunch and they triple down.

We have gotten to the point where it is just buzzwords (He just runs the offence better!) with absolutely no basis or support.

This is just not accurate. IQ is being criticized because of the role he is being asked to play not because he lacks talent.

Most of the critique, from what I've seen, comes from people looking at how IQ performs as a starting PG and coming to the realization that he is going to be a liability during the post-season as a PG.

It is about a simple question. Can we win a championship with IQ as our starting PG? I think that those who are critical of him as a PG realize that we can't, so we might as well move on from the experiment and find another solution that will allow us to achieve our ultimate goal.

There was good example last night of why people hold this view. It was the fastbreak where IQ had Grady on his right and Mamu on his left. He passed the ball to Mamu instead of Grady, which would have been the correct play. He didn't recognize the correct play quick enough and by the time he was able to process it, the only play he felt comfortable making was the pass to Mamu.

Also I have doubts that he has the skill to make that pass to Gradey. He really isn't a good passer and can't really recall a time when he has made a one handed pass, almost all his passes are with two hands which is severely limiting to making the correct reads on offense.

Thing is though, I think he could help us win a championship with him as a 6th man/SG. He is very talented, he's just in the wrong role.

That's not a simple question and I thinkt eh discussion around "can x player be a championship starter" are always so simplistic.

Contenders make it or win titles all the time with players as good or worse than IQ. Is Aaron Nesmith a championship SG? Derrick Jones JR a championship wing? 38 year old Al Horford a championship C?

IQ is a good 3 point shooter, good secondary playmaker and is at least solid defensively. There is no reason he can't be a stater on a championship team

If anything id say his skillset is more scale-able to better talent around him than say Ingram who needs the ball in his hands to be effective.

But yeah so much context is needed for championship piece or not questions and if we really wanna go that route you could just say it doesnt matter unless we have a SGA/Haliburton/Jokic/Luka/Tatum level star lol.

[Tofubeque]

I’m surprised to see arguing about Quickley needing a PG next to him, it’s pretty well established. He’s a SG, he’s played better off the ball his whole career. Darko seems very set on having a “PG” playing a very conservative passing role at the top of the arc while the wings run off screens, we’ve seen that since the Schroder days. IQ is wasted in that role. Hopefully we can see RJ and Scottie initiate more actions in the future to free IQ up, they can do it.

The other obvious element is the Warriors played awful defense all night, a b2b with no Horford and their best defensive wing lost for the year. But hopefully IQ can carry this momentum into the Kings.

[dTox]

Hopefully this is the IQ game that changes the season for him, he has it in him, just needs to put it together more consistently (not expecting 40 everynight of course). Solid win

[Duffman100]

All this IQ/Shead talk...

The bigger issue if CMB is missing significant time and Poeltl isn't back, we're **** ed for our frontcourt. We need to make a deal soon for center depth.

[WWSRD]

Yeah IQ has gotten way to much hate around here for absolutely no reason. His shooting woes are legit but as last night shows, this board focuses more on the #'s in the box score than anything else. You can throw all the evidence in the world they are out to lunch and they triple down.

We have gotten to the point where it is just buzzwords (He just runs the offence better!) with absolutely no basis or support.

This is just not accurate. IQ is being criticized because of the role he is being asked to play not because he lacks talent.

Most of the critique, from what I've seen, comes from people looking at how IQ performs as a starting PG and coming to the realization that he is going to be a liability during the post-season as a PG.

It is about a simple question. Can we win a championship with IQ as our starting PG? I think that those who are critical of him as a PG realize that we can't, so we might as well move on from the experiment and find another solution that will allow us to achieve our ultimate goal.

There was good example last night of why people hold this view. It was the fastbreak where IQ had Grady on his right and Mamu on his left. He passed the ball to Mamu instead of Grady, which would have been the correct play. He didn't recognize the correct play quick enough and by the time he was able to process it, the only play he felt comfortable making was the pass to Mamu.

Also I have doubts that he has the skill to make that pass to Gradey. He really isn't a good passer and can't really recall a time when he has made a one handed pass, almost all his passes are with two hands which is severely limiting to making the correct reads on offense.

Thing is though, I think he could help us win a championship with him as a 6th man/SG. He is very talented, he's just in the wrong role.

That's not a simple question and I thinkt eh discussion around "can x player be a championship starter" are always so simplistic.

Contenders make it or win titles all the time with players as good or worse than IQ. Is Aaron Nesmith a championship SG? Derrick Jones JR a championship wing? 38 year old Al Horford a championship C?

IQ is a good 3 point shooter, good secondary playmaker and is at least solid defensively. There is no reason he can't be a stater on a championship team

Yes there is. He's eating 25% of your Cap and giving you 17/6 on 36 p% with average defence.

[MiamiSPX]

Only caught the 1H as I went to bed fully expecting them to hang on, due to how awful GS looked. I thought Barnes came out on a mission. IQ en fuego.

Let's hope he saved some of those 3s for tonight.

[tsherkin]

[
...and we're doing it with multiple starters out over long stretches and not having made any all-in moves at all yet!

I'd love to see how far we can go with Jak and RJ back, and I wouldn't be mad about a competitive first- or second round exit at all. It's a perfectly normal phase in the organic building of a team that might try to contend in a year or two.

That's another good point. We haven't really done anything yet besides getting a little healthier and having Ingram aboard. It would be really interesting to see what we would look like with reasonable health.. but that may not be an option with the guys on our roster, so we'll have to see.

ANd as you say, a decent first- or second-round exit would be pretty normal at this part of the timeline on our rebuild.

[MiamiSPX]

grumpiest 26-19 fanbase ever?

Not sure I saw it posted anywhere here but apparently this was our 8th best mark at the midway point, in franchise history. That's pretty damn good when you consider the injuries, the fact that NOBODY expected us to be here, and the absolute trash they served up the last 2 seasons.

[tsherkin]

All this IQ/Shead talk...

The bigger issue if CMB is missing significant time and Poeltl isn't back, we're **** ed for our frontcourt. We need to make a deal soon for center depth.

Yeah, we're weak all over when our starters go down. At some point, though, we need to have a real discussion about if Yak can ever stay healthy enough to remain a feature element of our team, though. If he was just healthy, then he and CMB would be a sufficient rotation, you know? We can't have too many starters as 60- and < 60-game players.

[DreamTeam09]

It is about a simple question. Can we win a championship with IQ as our starting PG? I think that those who are critical of him as a PG realize that we can't, so we might as well move on from the experiment and find another solution that will allow us to achieve our ultimate goal.

We’ve won 2 playoff games in the past 5 seasons, you think we should be holding players to championship-or-bust standards?

If you pay a guy $35million to start at PG, then you should feel he can start on a championship team. More importantly, he can't be PREVENTING you from building a championship team by clogging up your cap.

I'm pretty sure Bobby thinks he can get 80% of IQ production for 15% of the money. Shead is kind of proving that this season.

this is absolute madness. Again everyone has to stop using these blanketed phrases, theory, or mandates or talking points.
He's the 19th highest paid PG, no you're not getting 80% of IQ for 15% of the money, saying that isn't even a serious take. & whatever player you're going to use as an example is not the standard or that player should be paid more.
By that same token the max players being paid max and not performing at the max, or injury prone max players, iQ is being paid like 15-30% compared to those guys, & we are currently top 4 in the east. The earth is not falling

[Indeed]

All this IQ/Shead talk...

The bigger issue if CMB is missing significant time and Poeltl isn't back, we're **** ed for our frontcourt. We need to make a deal soon for center depth.

I am unsure fixing the center problem by creating a guard problem would make us any better.
We can say the same with Barrett out and Shead got injured, we basically have no rim pressure and lack of shooting (maybe we already lacked shooting in half court).