Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 10

[WuTang_CMB]

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Trey Murphy would do wonders for Scottie and this team.

iw onder if he would be any good

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[Dexjackson]

I agree with you there. A lot of his primary detractors are worried about him not being a superstar instead of focusing on the fact that he's an AS-level talent who does good things for us on both sides of the ball when he's put into the right position. I suspect it's that many are starved for success and want to get back into contention, perhaps not realizing how rare that actually is for teams.



Can't argue with a word of that. I've said it often enough myself, hah!

The problem with Barnes is, he is paid like elite teams always needs one. He is paid like an alpha.

Having the leagues 32nd highest cap hit would suggest otherwise.

He's about to be lower also. Guys like SGA, Bam, Fox, JJJ are going to pass him in the next 1-2 years. I should have noted alpha scorer. He's not going to be an alpha scorer but there are multiple ways to be alphas. I think Scottie is an alpha defensively and from a playmaking perspective. A solid scorer who is elite defensively and from a playmaking perspective. I think that's a max level player. The issue does not sit with Scottie's salary but rather a misallocation of funds to IQ and Yak mostly. If anything Scottie is the best financial value in our starting lineup. Mobley makes quite a bit more than Scottie. If they switched places you think the Cavs would be any worse? There a many teams who have multiple guys making more than Scottie (GSW - 2, Denver -2, Bos - 2, 76ers - 2 with Maxey being nearly even with Scottie, LAL - 2, LAC - 2, SAC - 2, Cle - 3, Indy - 2, NYK - 2).

[tsherkin]

there are multiple ways to be alphas. I think Scottie is an alpha defensively and from a playmaking perspective. A solid scorer who is elite defensively and from a playmaking perspective. I think that's a max level player. The issue does not sit with Scottie's salary but rather a misallocation of funds to IQ and Yak mostly. If anything Scottie is the best financial value in our starting lineup. Mobley makes quite a bit more than Scottie. If they switched places you think the Cavs would be any worse? There a many teams who have multiple guys making more than Scottie (GSW - 2, Denver -2, Bos - 2, 76ers - 2 with Maxey being nearly even with Scottie, LAL - 2, LAC - 2, SAC - 2, Cle - 3, Indy - 2, NYK - 2).

Passing by the whole "alpha" thing and if it is relevant or not, Scottie isn't generally the guy who's going to show you assertion. He's our best defender, and he's good at making plays in transition and as a connecting passer, but he's missing the tools to be what would be more appropriately termed an "alpha playmaker." He needs specific situations to make plays for others. He's better on the short roll and on the break, and much less effective against a set D with his dribble.

I think we do him a disservice by trying to shoehorn him into any kind of "alpha" profile. He is who he is, and what he does for us is very valuable. He doesn't need a PR scheme to be useful to us, and we don't need to make him into something he's not.

But I think we can also all agree, the numbers do not paint his contract as a problem. He does so much for us that he's worth a fair bit of money... but he's also clearly not in the first tier of salary level. If he keeps producing as he has so far this season, he's well worth his deal even if he isn't a tier-1 player.

[MiamiSPX]

He will be the 37th highest paid next season, and undoubtedly anywhere from 40th-45th the season after. There are things to criticize Scottie about, his contract is not one of them. Like, at all. As if 28 other teams wouldn't call Bobby right now if they made him available.

[TheGeneral99]

At this point Barnes should be 100% an all-star and hopefully Ingram can squeeze in. With the Knicks falling recently, does Towns really have a better all-star argument over Ingram?

I think it's pretty close between Towns, Ingram and Johnson for that 12th spot. If we can keep that #4 seed or slide up to #3 over the next week, Ingram definitely should have a good case here.

[Indeed]

there are multiple ways to be alphas. I think Scottie is an alpha defensively and from a playmaking perspective. A solid scorer who is elite defensively and from a playmaking perspective. I think that's a max level player. The issue does not sit with Scottie's salary but rather a misallocation of funds to IQ and Yak mostly. If anything Scottie is the best financial value in our starting lineup. Mobley makes quite a bit more than Scottie. If they switched places you think the Cavs would be any worse? There a many teams who have multiple guys making more than Scottie (GSW - 2, Denver -2, Bos - 2, 76ers - 2 with Maxey being nearly even with Scottie, LAL - 2, LAC - 2, SAC - 2, Cle - 3, Indy - 2, NYK - 2).

Passing by the whole "alpha" thing and if it is relevant or not, Scottie isn't generally the guy who's going to show you assertion. He's our best defender, and he's good at making plays in transition and as a connecting passer, but he's missing the tools to be what would be more appropriately termed an "alpha playmaker." He needs specific situations to make plays for others. He's better on the short roll and on the break, and much less effective against a set D with his dribble.

I think we do him a disservice by trying to shoehorn him into any kind of "alpha" profile. He is who he is, and what he does for us is very valuable. He doesn't need a PR scheme to be useful to us, and we don't need to make him into something he's not.

But I think we can also all agree, the numbers do not paint his contract as a problem. He does so much for us that he's worth a fair bit of money... but he's also clearly not in the first tier of salary level. If he keeps producing as he has so far this season, he's well worth his deal even if he isn't a tier-1 player.

We shall see if this is a misallocation of funds next year after we decide on Barrett.

Meanwhile, it is his numbers that paint his contract, as if he is not scoring 20ppg, he would not be discussed. And how a non 3 point shooter non creator got 20ppg? Might have to see if he plays the C and get feeded. Meanwhile if his only reason being paid on defense, how much better is he than CMB? Advanced stats has them similar (or CMB having slight edge on defensive rating), do we pay CMB the near max? Why is CMB not a near max based on the value Barnes provides?

[tsherkin]

We shall see if this is a misallocation of funds next year after we decide on Barrett.

Meanwhile, it is his numbers that paint his contract, as if he is not scoring 20ppg, he would not be discussed. And how a non 3 point shooter non creator got 20ppg? Might have to see if he plays the C and get feeded. Meanwhile if his only reason being paid on defense, how much better is he than CMB? Advanced stats has them similar (or CMB having slight edge on defensive rating), do we pay CMB the near max? Why is CMB not a near max based on the value Barnes provides?

This all seems to ignore everything but scoring. He's a great defender and a pretty good playmaker. And he's a high-teens scorer on reasonable efficiency for a second/third option. Meantime, discussing CMB is somewhat moot because he has baked-in restrictions on his salary for now, and because he's got 37 games and 13 starts of play, whereas Scottie has multiple years of defensive proof at this point.

Again, heavy overemphasis on scoring. Scottie's hovering around 20 ppg, giving us rebounding, passing and loads of defense. This conversation is a lot of "but what if he wasn't scoring 20 ppg" and vague remarks about his production and next year. He's a very productive player who is giving us two-way value. He's quite useful, and his contract isn't a huge problem for us at all.

[Clay Davis]

Scottie can be the best player on a contending team without being the best offensive scorer. Hell, he could have the highest point-average on a contending team without being the best iso scorer (consider the Lebron-Kyrie dynamic).

I still find that hard to envision. It's basically at odds with the majority of titles we've ever seen. A guy who can score at the level being discussed is rarely not the best player on his team, after all. Those guys are tier-1, the best of the best, ATG monsters. Barnes has more in common with Scottie Pippen than a title focus.

And of course, that's not a terrible thing at all. He's an excellent talent, we're lucky to have him. There's just this undercurrent to push guys towards something they are not, and we see it beyond our fanbase as well. Folks want to believe in unlimited upside and all that, and that can cause all kinds of consternation in a fanbase.

We should focus on just being happy with what he is, and how far he's come since we drafted him.

It is admittedly difficult to envision, but I think that it's possible for him to become that 25-10-6 player that plays phenomenal defense without him trying to do his best Kawhi or KD impression every night. His current archetype can make him the best, the most winning player on our team. The same way Lowry was when Demar was averaging 27 points per game.

I agree that it'd be asinine for the coaching staff to sit him down and say "alright, time for you to watch 75 minutes of Kobe/Kawhi/MJ isos a night". No, what I'm thinking is him playing the way he's playing but just a half a step faster, a measure more accurate, significantly more decisively. This image I have of him essentially demands additional fluency (which I presume will come with familiarity, provided he maintains his focus and discipline over the course of his career) but not necessarily requiring more sophisticated (multi-layered, multi-faceted) rizz.

[TorontoBarneys]

22.4PPG in his last 10.

[Indeed]

We shall see if this is a misallocation of funds next year after we decide on Barrett.

Meanwhile, it is his numbers that paint his contract, as if he is not scoring 20ppg, he would not be discussed. And how a non 3 point shooter non creator got 20ppg? Might have to see if he plays the C and get feeded. Meanwhile if his only reason being paid on defense, how much better is he than CMB? Advanced stats has them similar (or CMB having slight edge on defensive rating), do we pay CMB the near max? Why is CMB not a near max based on the value Barnes provides?

This all seems to ignore everything but scoring. He's a great defender and a pretty good playmaker. And he's a high-teens scorer on reasonable efficiency for a second/third option. Meantime, discussing CMB is somewhat moot because he has baked-in restrictions on his salary for now, and because he's got 37 games and 13 starts of play, whereas Scottie has multiple years of defensive proof at this point.

Again, heavy overemphasis on scoring. Scottie's hovering around 20 ppg, giving us rebounding, passing and loads of defense. This conversation is a lot of "but what if he wasn't scoring 20 ppg" and vague remarks about his production and next year. He's a very productive player who is giving us two-way value. He's quite useful, and his contract isn't a huge problem for us at all.

Multiple years of defensive proof? The stats only backed up on this year.
As for CMB, if he is not already at the level of Barnes, people wouldn't mean to bring him up for the starting C role. And if you look at the last 2 games, Barnes was playing the C, so eventually there will be a conversation on who to start, just the matter of time.

[Tripod]

We shall see if this is a misallocation of funds next year after we decide on Barrett.

Meanwhile, it is his numbers that paint his contract, as if he is not scoring 20ppg, he would not be discussed. And how a non 3 point shooter non creator got 20ppg? Might have to see if he plays the C and get feeded. Meanwhile if his only reason being paid on defense, how much better is he than CMB? Advanced stats has them similar (or CMB having slight edge on defensive rating), do we pay CMB the near max? Why is CMB not a near max based on the value Barnes provides?

This all seems to ignore everything but scoring. He's a great defender and a pretty good playmaker. And he's a high-teens scorer on reasonable efficiency for a second/third option. Meantime, discussing CMB is somewhat moot because he has baked-in restrictions on his salary for now, and because he's got 37 games and 13 starts of play, whereas Scottie has multiple years of defensive proof at this point.

Again, heavy overemphasis on scoring. Scottie's hovering around 20 ppg, giving us rebounding, passing and loads of defense. This conversation is a lot of "but what if he wasn't scoring 20 ppg" and vague remarks about his production and next year. He's a very productive player who is giving us two-way value. He's quite useful, and his contract isn't a huge problem for us at all.

Multiple years of defensive proof? The stats only backed up on this year.
As for CMB, if he is not already at the level of Barnes, people wouldn't mean to bring him up for the starting C role. And if you look at the last 2 games, Barnes was playing the C, so eventually there will be a conversation on who to start, just the matter of time.

Yeah....who to start....the rookie or the former ROTY and soon to be 2xAll Star.

[tsherkin]

Multiple years of defensive proof? The stats only backed up on this year.

Scottie's had significant defensive value before this season, man. That's been fairly evident. Statistically, you're even off-base, depending on where you look. He's been +0.8 or better in Actual D-EPM since 2024, and he was +2.0 last year, better than his year. RAPM liked him last year as well. Defensive MAMBA has liked him for 3 years before this. Defensive DARKO has liked him since 2024, and defensive LEBRON since 2023.

So no, the stats have definitely backed him for a lot longer than just this season, even going beyond your rudiments like stocks and DBPM and so forth.

It is admittedly difficult to envision, but I think that it's possible for him to become that 25-10-6 player that plays phenomenal defense without him trying to do his best Kawhi or KD impression every night.

I can't see it, really. And honestly, I don't think we should even try to ask that of him. It isn't his game, and it actively lessens his impact when we increase his usage anywhere near that level.

The same way Lowry was when Demar was averaging 27 points per game.

I dunno that looking at Demar gunning at league-average efficiency to get to 27 is a good example, because that was not ideal for us. There were things useful about his game in the RS, but that team was driven a lot more by Lowry and Jonas in terms of our offensive efficacy. Demar's main contribution was his low turnover rate and shouldering first option volume at a second option's efficiency, which wasn't ideal. But we killed the O-boards and Lowry and Jonas were ultra efficient, and we had excellent possession economy overall.

Anyway, I don't want to get caught up in being negative about Scottie. What I want, really, is for us to be happy that we've found a role where he works and to stop trying to aggressively push him towards a player archetype he has never modeled or projected to become. He's doing great for us at this shooting volume. And on a hot night, you feed him and let him go, but he's not the guy you want chasing 25 a night. He's much more an in the flow guy working around other guys, and that's just fine.

He can be our Pippen and be incredibly valuable to us in that capacity.

[GoRapstheoriginal]

Great post! Huge game incoming on Friday night!

Go Scottie Go! #TEAM POSITIVEPOLLY! ALL BOARD! CHOO CHOO! ! ! !

[tsherkin]

Go Scottie Go! #TEAM POSITIVEPOLLY! ALL BOARD! CHOO CHOO! ! ! !

Team Positive Polly, I love it.

We need some of that. We're having a really good year. It's actually on pace to be a top-10 type season in franchise history, if we maintain this winning percentage. We should be way happier than we seem to be.

[manjusaka]

Well, defensively SB is not as good as OG, who had made Embiid uncomfortable in a playoff series. However, he is still very good help defender in the midrange to 3 pt line.

Offensively, SB is much more versatile and it is not even close.

[HumbleRen]

Well, defensively SB is not as good as OG, who had made Embiid uncomfortable in a playoff series. However, he is still very good help defender in the midrange to 3 pt line.

Offensively, SB is much more versatile and it is not even close.

Ah I disagree. Scottie a much better defender imo.

[Indeed]

Multiple years of defensive proof? The stats only backed up on this year.

Scottie's had significant defensive value before this season, man. That's been fairly evident. Statistically, you're even off-base, depending on where you look. He's been +0.8 or better in Actual D-EPM since 2024, and he was +2.0 last year, better than his year. RAPM liked him last year as well. Defensive MAMBA has liked him for 3 years before this. Defensive DARKO has liked him since 2024, and defensive LEBRON since 2023.

So no, the stats have definitely backed him for a lot longer than just this season, even going beyond your rudiments like stocks and DBPM and so forth.

DARKO and LEBRON liked him in the 50 this year (last year 150), while DRAPM in the 150. So not all advanced stats are the same.

Meanwhile, as for the stats I am referring in dTS (defensive TS), Opponent Rim frequency, stop %, total points saved / 100, etc. , those are the actual result of impact.

I understand different positions may have different criteria, such as Rim frequency, that would be for C. Maybe this is also screwing advanced stats when his role change. Therefore, I have been more focused on the defensive TS% (dTS), which started good this year and ranked in the 100, instead of 250 in previous years, which is why I see him this year being in the top (Anunoby ranked in the top 50, 13th being highest. Kawhi due to injury has been up and down, but ranked 4th being the highest. Gobert ranked in the top 10 and mostly 1st, etc.).

[tsherkin]

DARKO and LEBRON liked him in the 50 this year (last year 150), while DRAPM in the 150. So not all advanced stats are the same.

Meanwhile, as for the stats I am referring in dTS (defensive TS), Opponent Rim frequency, stop %, total points saved / 100, etc. , those are the actual result of impact.

Those are good things to look at, but at some point, if the numbers are pretty universally saying he's a good defender in those earlier seasons AND the eye test says the same thing AND there's a whole bunch of contextual stuff going on which suggests that the team is problematic on defense, then the specific raw numbers probably aren't the thing to use to deny the idea that we have proof of his defensive value.

[dballislife]

after watching last year scottie, the scottie now is exactly who i hoped he would become this season, so happy

[MiamiSPX]

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