WOJ Bomb: Michael Winger becomes the Wizards President of Basketball Operations

[payitforward]

Keep in mind folks, we're in this position because of the previous regime. Perhaps if the protections on our pick didn't go out as far as it did, the rebuilding phase would have looked completely different. Maybe Deni would have still been on the team. Who knows.

I don't understand. Why are you using logic & common sense when emotion & accusatory rhetoric are available to you?

[lastemp3ror]

Keep in mind folks, we're in this position because of the previous regime. Perhaps if the protections on our pick didn't go out as far as it did, the rebuilding phase would have looked completely different. Maybe Deni would have still been on the team. Who knows.

I mean isn't the reason always "Regime B is in place because regime A didn't do well"? In other words, it isn't likely any new regime is swimming in gold like Scrooge McDuck when they come in to take over. Their job is to make to get us out of this hell hole. Its the same thing with the Commanders, River Boat Ron sucked, AP came in to fix it. There wouldn't be an AP if Ron did well, but this is why you pay AP the big bucks.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

Keep in mind folks, we're in this position because of the previous regime. Perhaps if the protections on our pick didn't go out as far as it did, the rebuilding phase would have looked completely different. Maybe Deni would have still been on the team. Who knows.

I mean isn't the reason always "Regime B is in place because regime A didn't do well"? In other words, it isn't likely any new regime is swimming in gold like Scrooge McDuck when they come in to take over. Their job is to make to get us out of this hell hole. Its the same thing with the Commanders, River Boat Ron sucked, AP came in to fix it. There wouldn't be an AP if Ron did well, but this is why you pay AP the big bucks.

To go further, isn't it imperative for the new regime to avoid blunders like regime A and not walk into fresh new ones?

[willbcocks]

Winger's been great. His job has been to reshape the culture, set the strategy, hire the people. Will Dawson looks like a great hire--I mean, time will tell if he has that right combination of eye for talent and luck, but I can't think of anyone available I would rather have as GM. We have a real strategy, and it's a viable strategy. We didn't have one of those for 20 years. And the culture has changed--multiple players (Sarr, Ace Bailey, Trae Young) have been pushing to go to the Wizards, and those who leave have good things to say about the franchise.

Ultimately if we don't see success at the tactical level in our trades and picks after a number of years, I would still give WInger a chance to hire a new GM (and maybe keep Dawson in some other capacity). But hopefully we will.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

https://www.blazersedge.com/trail-blazers-news/108130/deni-avdija-trade-washington-wizards-portland-trail-blazers-age-stats

The subtitle... "A geriatric joins the Blazers.

[nate33]

Winger's been great. His job has been to reshape the culture, set the strategy, hire the people. Will Dawson looks like a great hire--I mean, time will tell if he has that right combination of eye for talent and luck, but I can't think of anyone available I would rather have as GM. We have a real strategy, and it's a viable strategy. We didn't have one of those for 20 years. And the culture has changed--multiple players (Sarr, Ace Bailey, Trae Young) have been pushing to go to the Wizards, and those who leave have good things to say about the franchise.

Ultimately if we don't see success at the tactical level in our trades and picks after a number of years, I would still give WInger a chance to hire a new GM (and maybe keep Dawson in some other capacity). But hopefully we will.

Great point. The change in the culture, professionalism and organization of the franchise is probably a more significant improvement than the actual decision-making of Dawkins in talent accumulation.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

https://heavy.com/sports/nba/portland-trail-blazers/deni-avdijas-all-star-leap-is-forcing-an-uncomfortable-question/

If you guys think this is going to just fade, it isn't. I expect that these questions will only pick up steam once he starts piling on individual accolades (shame that's what it takes). Winger said full stop no regrets and gave a bad, unnuanced answer. Expect to here that "No regrets" headline a lot in the bball media.

[payitforward]

Winger's been great. His job has been to reshape the culture, set the strategy, hire the people. Will Dawson looks like a great hire--I mean, time will tell if he has that right combination of eye for talent and luck, but I can't think of anyone available I would rather have as GM. We have a real strategy, and it's a viable strategy. We didn't have one of those for 20 years. And the culture has changed--multiple players (Sarr, Ace Bailey, Trae Young) have been pushing to go to the Wizards, and those who leave have good things to say about the franchise.

Ultimately if we don't see success at the tactical level in our trades and picks after a number of years, I would still give WInger a chance to hire a new GM (and maybe keep Dawson in some other capacity). But hopefully we will.

Great point. The change in the culture, professionalism and organization of the franchise is probably a more significant improvement than the actual decision-making of Dawkins in talent accumulation.

Agreed. Although, overall, I have no beef with what Dawkins has done. Obviously there's plenty of room to talk about the Avdija trade, hundreds of pages of room. But, other than that I have liked all his trades & other decisions. Above all I like every one of the draft picks. I wish we'd been able to keep Rollins, but that was on him not us.

[Silvie Lysandra]

https://heavy.com/sports/nba/portland-trail-blazers/deni-avdijas-all-star-leap-is-forcing-an-uncomfortable-question/

If you guys think this is going to just fade, it isn't. I expect that these questions will only pick up steam once he starts piling on individual accolades (shame that's what it takes). Winger said full stop no regrets and gave a bad, unnuanced answer. Expect to here that "No regrets" headline a lot in the bball media.

It's absolutely useless to discuss this with you. Winger and Dawkins keep telling you why they did it, and you refuse to accept it. Tell me the last championship roster built around a top 15~ (this season - who says he doesn't regress) -guy. But you don't care about the Washington Wizards winning a ring, you care about being right about Deni Advija.

You desperately want and need this, for your own ego, to be the modern Chris Webber trade, except Webber was the cornerstone of a playoff team that impressed Michael Jordan and was traded in a panic for PR reasons and was already an All-Star level player, while Deni was traded as a prospect who showed flashes but never any consistency, for the sake of executing a "tear it to the studs" teambuilding strategy.

Chris Webber was traded for a broken down Mitch Ritchmond and nothing else, while we got at minimum a lottery pick out of Deni, possibly two, and while early returns don't look good on Bub, at least the move had a clear strategic goal.

Chris Webber peaked a lot higher then Deni has shown so far. He is a star but he is NOT a superstar. He has star impact, not superstar impact. He's carried the Blazers to a play-in, but true superstars carry teams to contention. Chris Webber carried a team of non-stars to title contention in the late 90s and early 2000s West. A healthy Webber never played with the Peja that made 2nd team All-NBA. Vlade Divac made one All-Star game in his career. Bibby never made an All-Star game. Webber was a top 5 player, Deni is a closer to top 15 than top 10 by both traditional metrics and advanced metrics. And that matters, if your have aspirations of actually winning a ring. Deni level players don't win rings as the best player, and we didn't know we had a better player. We've seen teams hold onto a promising young player too long, try to split the difference, and end up in purgatory. It's one thing to blow all your picks, to be unlucky, but at least they tried to build a title level core.

You basically want to fire the best front office we've had in a generation for the crime of not believing in Deni Advija enough, and you attack and belittle and mock anyone who pushes back on this, you call people names and make character accusations, and you dismiss and belittle any counterargument anyone makes. This has long ceased to be a good faith discussion, and because of that, I will not read your response to this. As of this post, you are permanently on my ignore list, because hard blocks don't exist on this forum, and I encourage anyone on this board who actually cares about the Washington Wizards, and not being right about a single player, to do the same.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

https://heavy.com/sports/nba/portland-trail-blazers/deni-avdijas-all-star-leap-is-forcing-an-uncomfortable-question/

If you guys think this is going to just fade, it isn't. I expect that these questions will only pick up steam once he starts piling on individual accolades (shame that's what it takes). Winger said full stop no regrets and gave a bad, unnuanced answer. Expect to here that "No regrets" headline a lot in the bball media.

It's absolutely useless to discuss this with you. Winger and Dawkins keep telling you why they did it, and you refuse to accept it. Tell me the last championship roster built around a top 15~ (this season - who says he doesn't regress) -guy. But you don't care about the Washington Wizards winning a ring, you care about being right about Deni Advija.

You desperately want and need this, for your own ego, to be the modern Chris Webber trade, except Webber was the cornerstone of a playoff team that impressed Michael Jordan and was traded in a panic for PR reasons and was already an All-Star level player, while Deni was traded as a prospect who showed flashes but never any consistency, for the sake of executing a "tear it to the studs" teambuilding strategy.

Chris Webber was traded for a broken down Mitch Ritchmond and nothing else, while we got at minimum a lottery pick out of Deni, possibly two, and while early returns don't look good on Bub, at least the move had a clear strategic goal.

Chris Webber peaked a lot higher then Deni has shown so far. He is a star but he is NOT a superstar. He has star impact, not superstar impact. He's carried the Blazers to a play-in, but true superstars carry teams to contention. Chris Webber carried a team of non-stars to title contention in the late 90s and early 2000s West. A healthy Webber never played with the Peja that made 2nd team All-NBA. Vlade Divac made one All-Star game in his career. Bibby never made an All-Star game. Webber was a top 5 player, Deni is a closer to top 15 than top 10 by both traditional metrics and advanced metrics. And that matters, if your have aspirations of actually winning a ring. Deni level players don't win rings as the best player, and we didn't know we had a better player. We've seen teams hold onto a promising young player too long, try to split the difference, and end up in purgatory. It's one thing to blow all your picks, to be unlucky, but at least they tried to build a title level core.

You basically want to fire the best front office we've had in a generation for the crime of not believing in Deni Advija enough, and you attack and belittle and mock anyone who pushes back on this, you call people names and make character accusations, and you dismiss and belittle any counterargument anyone makes. This has long ceased to be a good faith discussion, and because of that, I will not read your response to this. As of this post, you are permanently on my ignore list, because hard blocks don't exist on this forum, and I encourage anyone on this board who actually cares about the Washington Wizards, and not being right about a single player, to do the same.

The fact you have to try to compare this to Chris Webber shows you are grasping, pal. I don't care that if it is the worst, second worst, tenth worst trade in franchise history all I know is it was a massive blunder that you and others want to put lipstick on a pig and say it's Halle Berry.

Good faith? You want people to say what Dawkins and Winger did was okay and just to "stop crying about it." At least I'm making points, not trying to blindly stans a front office because they are the "best front office we've had in a generation" (the lowest hanging fruit in professional sports maybe). Your anger, and others, that I and others won't fall in line and be a homer so it spares your delicate eyes from having to see a topic you feel uneasy with is your problem, your entitlement obviously has no bounds.

But as hard as it is to hear you are leaving, I know it's probably for the best. Ta ta, cupcake.

[DCZards]

Was it a mistake to trade Deni? It certainly looks like it. But it’s been almost 2 yrs and it’s a waste of time and energy to keep stressing over it.

Let’s talk about the very promising youngsters we have (such as Sarr, George, and Tre) and not the one that is no longer on the team.

[AFM]

"If you guys think this is going to just fade, it isn't." lmao--like this is some sort of watergate scandal.

I've had dude blocked for over a year, unfortunately I can see his posts when you quote them. Something very wrong with that guy.

[9 and 20]

https://heavy.com/sports/nba/portland-trail-blazers/deni-avdijas-all-star-leap-is-forcing-an-uncomfortable-question/

If you guys think this is going to just fade, it isn't. I expect that these questions will only pick up steam once he starts piling on individual accolades (shame that's what it takes). Winger said full stop no regrets and gave a bad, unnuanced answer. Expect to here that "No regrets" headline a lot in the bball media.

It's absolutely useless to discuss this with you. Winger and Dawkins keep telling you why they did it, and you refuse to accept it. Tell me the last championship roster built around a top 15~ (this season - who says he doesn't regress) -guy. But you don't care about the Washington Wizards winning a ring, you care about being right about Deni Advija.

You desperately want and need this, for your own ego, to be the modern Chris Webber trade, except Webber was the cornerstone of a playoff team that impressed Michael Jordan and was traded in a panic for PR reasons and was already an All-Star level player, while Deni was traded as a prospect who showed flashes but never any consistency, for the sake of executing a "tear it to the studs" teambuilding strategy.

Chris Webber was traded for a broken down Mitch Ritchmond and nothing else, while we got at minimum a lottery pick out of Deni, possibly two, and while early returns don't look good on Bub, at least the move had a clear strategic goal.

Chris Webber peaked a lot higher then Deni has shown so far. He is a star but he is NOT a superstar. He has star impact, not superstar impact. He's carried the Blazers to a play-in, but true superstars carry teams to contention. Chris Webber carried a team of non-stars to title contention in the late 90s and early 2000s West. A healthy Webber never played with the Peja that made 2nd team All-NBA. Vlade Divac made one All-Star game in his career. Bibby never made an All-Star game. Webber was a top 5 player, Deni is a closer to top 15 than top 10 by both traditional metrics and advanced metrics. And that matters, if your have aspirations of actually winning a ring. Deni level players don't win rings as the best player, and we didn't know we had a better player. We've seen teams hold onto a promising young player too long, try to split the difference, and end up in purgatory. It's one thing to blow all your picks, to be unlucky, but at least they tried to build a title level core.

You basically want to fire the best front office we've had in a generation for the crime of not believing in Deni Advija enough, and you attack and belittle and mock anyone who pushes back on this, you call people names and make character accusations, and you dismiss and belittle any counterargument anyone makes. This has long ceased to be a good faith discussion, and because of that, I will not read your response to this. As of this post, you are permanently on my ignore list, because hard blocks don't exist on this forum, and I encourage anyone on this board who actually cares about the Washington Wizards, and not being right about a single player, to do the same.

Totally agree about this being very different from the Webber trade. The Webber trade was a crappy trade combined with crappy vision and strategy. The Deni trade was crappy but it was part of implementing a much needed strategy.

Sucks we lost Deni for relative peanuts, but given the state of the franchise then and looking at it now, I'm fine with it. You couldn't say the same about the Webber trade two years after it happened.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

Was it a mistake to trade Deni? It certainly looks like it. But it’s been almost 2 yrs and it’s a waste of time and energy to keep stressing over it.

Let’s talk about the very promising youngsters we have (such as Sarr, George, and Tre) and not the one that is no longer on the team.

I'm not stressed, I know it's a done deal and that he will never be coming back to the Wizards.

What I personally refuse to do, as a long time Wizards fan, to be silenced when this franchise dishes out **** time and time again and call it an ice cream sundae. I've paid for tickets to games, given them TV revenue by watching games, once even talked to Caron Butler at Fair Oaks about how they need to bring the chip' home (I was young and naive), don't ask me to have whitewashed conversations around the team.

It literally took a year and half for someone to have the stones to ask, probably because you've been hearing about it in the larger bball media.

[Silvie Lysandra]

Sucks we lost Deni for relative peanuts, but given the state of the franchise then and looking at it now, I'm fine with it. You couldn't say the same about the Webber trade two years after it happened.

Let me push back on that to an extent.

We talked ourselves into seeing Deni as a Mikal Bridges level player, something worthy of a huge draft haul. And it turns out that he was on his way to becoming that, if he wasn't that already. But he had never shown that for a sustained period. He has really good on/off stats, and a lot of intangible impact on winning, but nobody around the league valued him that way, and he still had very glaring weaknesses. His advanced individual stats were not very good either. So basically, you're trying to tank to accumulate assets. You have this guy that doesn't have great counting stats, but is young and the Wizards look like a middling team, not a bad one when he's on the court. You shop him and a lottery pick and a future first and Malcolm Brogdon's contract is the best you can do. Keep him and have him add 4-8 wins, or even more to your tank every year? Or trade him for whatever you can get?

Even if keeping him an extra year DOES get you a Mikal Bridges package, that package is likely going to be mid to late 1sts - only a contender would make that trade. Is a few extra mid to late firsts worth reducing your chances of a #1 pick from 15% to 7%? That doesn't seem like a big number, but that's *halving* it. Is it worth, essentially, adding an extra coin to a cointoss chance at a top 4 pick, while also reducing your downside, to get a few extra mid-late picks out of the trade so it "looks" better (none of which would be a lottery pick, mind you). And sure that 2024 draft was perceived as weak, but they felt they could get more out of a lottery pick in a weak draft than a 20s pick in a stronger one.

Ultimately, they decided that they'd rather swing for the fences and make sure they didn't have players that could accidentally win them too many games, than risk keeping Deni. Yeah the flattened lottery odds didn't work out for us, but the odds are the odds. You didn't have a 100% chance to land tails if you called heads, you had a 50% chance, so if you need heads to win, then you don't make it so you need TWO heads just because in theory you could still win.

[joshuacf]

https://heavy.com/sports/nba/portland-trail-blazers/deni-avdijas-all-star-leap-is-forcing-an-uncomfortable-question/

If you guys think this is going to just fade, it isn't. I expect that these questions will only pick up steam once he starts piling on individual accolades (shame that's what it takes). Winger said full stop no regrets and gave a bad, unnuanced answer. Expect to here that "No regrets" headline a lot in the bball media.

I am going to go ahead and say this: I think you and others who support Deni Avija to the ends of the earth are doing so out of a "great white hope" mindset.

There was NOTHING to suggest, at the time of us trading Deni, that he could be a franchise cornerstone or the 1a on an NBA championship contender.

Which leads me to believe that there is something else going on here besides basketball in your steadfast insistence on dragging this conversation up two years later.

Also, the Deni trade CANNOT be evaluated in full until we see what we get in the 2026 NBA Draft. If we had kept Deni and he dragged us to a 8th-10th place finish this season, causing us to lose our pick, and one or more of the Darryn Peterson, AJ Dybansta, Caleb Wilson, etc. turned out to be an actual franchise cornerstone, we would have looked at not trading Deni as a huge failure 10 years down the line.

[doclinkin]

Double checking my work. Or Winger’s work anyway.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/executives/wingemi99x.html

Looks like the 2028 2nd rd pick Portland sent was from Golden State. We shipped that one with Jared Butler (a player we got for free off the scrap heap, and developed into an asset) to Philly with other surplus 2nds for this year’s likely #30 pick.

Still. Transmuted the Portland distant 2nd into this years late 1st.

So for Deni, so far that’s Bub plus first round picks in 2026 and 2029. And a 2nd in 2030.

[doclinkin]

Funny: I mistook that for the pick that netted us Riley. That trade was even more absurd.

We shipped Marvin Bagley + Johnny Davis + 2nd to Memphis for their #18 and relief from Marcus Smart’s contract. Smart mentored our youth for a few months then we bought him out in the summer.

With the #18 we traded back 3 spots with Utah and got Riley, Watkins, plus two 2nds.

Then we re-hired Bagley after the season.

So for renting Marcus Smart as a tutor we jettisoned Johnny Davis, netted two talented players, and picked up an extra 2nd.

[doclinkin]

The Bagley saga is even more absurd.

Sign and trade with Porzingus brought back Muscala and Galinari. Wes Jr played them both as small ball centers and tanked our season to earn us Alex Sarr.

We shipped their expiring contracts to Detroit for Marvin Bagley and 2nds in 2025, 2026.

That 2025 2RP was sent to dump Kyle Kuzma on the Bucks. Bringing back a 2028 1st round pick and AJ Johnson.

Bagley brought us:
AJJ, Riley, Watkins, and a 1st round pick, and a 2nd

And helped us dump useless players:
Moose, Gallo, Kuzma and Davis

Pretty nifty return on investment especially for a guy who is still on our team even after we traded him. And is playing well.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

https://heavy.com/sports/nba/portland-trail-blazers/deni-avdijas-all-star-leap-is-forcing-an-uncomfortable-question/

If you guys think this is going to just fade, it isn't. I expect that these questions will only pick up steam once he starts piling on individual accolades (shame that's what it takes). Winger said full stop no regrets and gave a bad, unnuanced answer. Expect to here that "No regrets" headline a lot in the bball media.

I am going to go ahead and say this: I think you and others who support Deni Avija to the ends of the earth are doing so out of a "great white hope" mindset.

There was NOTHING to suggest, at the time of us trading Deni, that he could be a franchise cornerstone or the 1a on an NBA championship contender.

Which leads me to believe that there is something else going on here besides basketball in your steadfast insistence on dragging this conversation up two years later.

Also, the Deni trade CANNOT be evaluated in full until we see what we get in the 2026 NBA Draft. If we had kept Deni and he dragged us to a 8th-10th place finish this season, causing us to lose our pick, and one or more of the Darryn Peterson, AJ Dybansta, Caleb Wilson, etc. turned out to be an actual franchise cornerstone, we would have looked at not trading Deni as a huge failure 10 years down the line.

Interesting theme that Deni being "white" keeps coming up in this conversation day after day by the people that are for the trade. Doclinkin yesterday, you today, and others, is that Deni's whiteness and being Israeli is why people are supporting him. This isn't that complicated, it's really simply about a great player that most on this board say was expendable because it just had to be done to have a "real" rebuild, as if it would have been akin to retooling around Beal.

As I've said before, he didn't need to show he was a 1a player to have made the trade at the time to be a blunder. He had shown enough despite being buried behind the Kuzma's and Poole's of the world, even empty calorie Beal. He balled out the moment he was given a sliver of a chance here, he has continued to do so save for the adjustment period he had in POR for the first 15 or so game there; he basically put up the same numbers he's putting up this season the second half of last season once he established himself as by far and away the best player on that team. He showed a lot when given the chance, and again it was always really of matter of minutes with him not being rag dolled by an incompetent coach in WUJ (any of you in here going to claim he was any good?)