Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 10

[Clay Davis]

Multiple years of defensive proof? The stats only backed up on this year.

Scottie's had significant defensive value before this season, man. That's been fairly evident. Statistically, you're even off-base, depending on where you look. He's been +0.8 or better in Actual D-EPM since 2024, and he was +2.0 last year, better than his year. RAPM liked him last year as well. Defensive MAMBA has liked him for 3 years before this. Defensive DARKO has liked him since 2024, and defensive LEBRON since 2023.

So no, the stats have definitely backed him for a lot longer than just this season, even going beyond your rudiments like stocks and DBPM and so forth.

It is admittedly difficult to envision, but I think that it's possible for him to become that 25-10-6 player that plays phenomenal defense without him trying to do his best Kawhi or KD impression every night.

I can't see it, really. And honestly, I don't think we should even try to ask that of him. It isn't his game, and it actively lessens his impact when we increase his usage anywhere near that level.

The same way Lowry was when Demar was averaging 27 points per game.

I dunno that looking at Demar gunning at league-average efficiency to get to 27 is a good example, because that was not ideal for us. There were things useful about his game in the RS, but that team was driven a lot more by Lowry and Jonas in terms of our offensive efficacy. Demar's main contribution was his low turnover rate and shouldering first option volume at a second option's efficiency, which wasn't ideal. But we killed the O-boards and Lowry and Jonas were ultra efficient, and we had excellent possession economy overall.

Anyway, I don't want to get caught up in being negative about Scottie. What I want, really, is for us to be happy that we've found a role where he works and to stop trying to aggressively push him towards a player archetype he has never modeled or projected to become. He's doing great for us at this shooting volume. And on a hot night, you feed him and let him go, but he's not the guy you want chasing 25 a night. He's much more an in the flow guy working around other guys, and that's just fine.

He can be our Pippen and be incredibly valuable to us in that capacity.

I am greatful that Scottish is a handsome, intelligent, articulate MAMMAL. His rizz is already what I lvoe. I want it to be lovelier of course but I am happy and proud of him, and I know he's proud of us too.

[HiJiNX]

Well, defensively SB is not as good as OG, who had made Embiid uncomfortable in a playoff series. However, he is still very good help defender in the midrange to 3 pt line.

Offensively, SB is much more versatile and it is not even close.

Ah I disagree. Scottie a much better defender imo.

I think it depends on what you’re looking for. With OG, you can stick him on any wing player in the league and know that person is likely going to have an off night. Barnes isn’t as effective at that. Where Barnes excels is his ability to quarterback a defence, to communicate coverages to kill offensive plays before they happen, his switchability, and his ability to cover a lot of space. Overall, I think Barnes’ D is more valuable to our team and to most teams.

So haha yeah maybe you’re right now that I think of it.

With respect to Barnes’ scoring — we don’t need him chasing 25+ ppg. Let him do what he’s doing. All we need him to do is have quarters like he did in the 3rd versus SAC or to continue being a high percentage fourth quarter scorer. The overall volume matters less than when he scores. Personally, that’s what I care about. Set up his teammates most of the time and score when he needs to.

[tsherkin]

I am greatful that Scottish is a handsome, intelligent, articulate MAMMAL. His rizz is already what I lvoe. I want it to be lovelier of course but I am happy and proud of him, and I know he's proud of us too.

Love the positivity!

[Indeed]

DARKO and LEBRON liked him in the 50 this year (last year 150), while DRAPM in the 150. So not all advanced stats are the same.

Meanwhile, as for the stats I am referring in dTS (defensive TS), Opponent Rim frequency, stop %, total points saved / 100, etc. , those are the actual result of impact.

Those are good things to look at, but at some point, if the numbers are pretty universally saying he's a good defender in those earlier seasons AND the eye test says the same thing AND there's a whole bunch of contextual stuff going on which suggests that the team is problematic on defense, then the specific raw numbers probably aren't the thing to use to deny the idea that we have proof of his defensive value.

Again, I wouldn't agree that he was a good defender prior to this year, particularly, his role was guarding on the perimeter, where the dTS backed up that, plus eye test proved he lacked the quickness to guard elites when changing directions.

His man and post defense were better as I see, but it wasn't from the previous years. And our current system favours him. Can you say the same with CMB on his role, I think this is what I want to see. And all these discussions are about his salary with him in the DARKO, LEBRON or other advanced stats being top 50, so how many of those in the top 50 worth the near-max, and why they are not worth the near-max? Mitchell Robinson has similar advanced stats to Barnes.

[tsherkin]

Again, I wouldn't agree that he was a good defender prior to this year, particularly, his role was guarding on the perimeter, where the dTS backed up that, plus eye test proved he lacked the quickness to guard elites when changing directions.

Then we are going to have to agree to disagree here, because I can't really fathom how you'd come to that conclusion.

Mitchell Robinson has similar advanced stats to Barnes.

Mitchell Robinson is a very good defensive player, though, so that shouldn't be all that surprising. His issues are that he's incompetent at the FT line and has no offensive game besides O boards. And that he's a foul machine. But he's still quite useful when he's on the court.

In any case, Scottie's a very good player. And his contract isn't a huge albatross to us. There's a lot of complaining about contracts going around this season, but honestly, it's mostly unwarranted.

[TheGeneral99]

Scottie's head is hard to see, but I'm pretty sure that's his afro to the right of Maxey.

If so, an interesting list...Barnes impact seems to be at the level of Cade, Maxey, AD, Curry, Butler etc.

The top is unsurprising with Jokic, Shai, Wemby, Mitchell, Edwards, Luka...what was surprising was seeing Kawhi there.

Read on Twitter

[tsherkin]

what was surprising was seeing Kawhi there.

What is surprising about it?

[TheGeneral99]

what was surprising was seeing Kawhi there.

What is surprising about it?

Surprising to see that at 34 years after how many injuries he's had, he's still among the elite of the elite in terms of impact. You don't see guys like Curry, Lebron, Durant, AD etc. near that impact anymore, but Kawhi according to that graph is still impacting the game on the tier of Giannis and Shai.

[Vampirate]

He can be our Pippen and be incredibly valuable to us in that capacity.

I think there's a path for him to legit becoem a real 2nd option (he isn't one yet)

I think he has a higher ceiling than Pippen offensively, but a lower defensive one.

The reason i'm saying this, is because I think he's actually expanding his shooting range, it just hasn't reached to the 3 point line yet, and may not ever, but there's a shot it will.

Barnes being a 82% FT shooter isn't a fluke I believe, while he's not exceptional at anywhere inside the 3 point line, he really doesn't actually have a weakness either. The outcome of him being atrue #2 option is dependant on him becoming so good at shooting the midrange, and pasable at shooting the 3, it changes how other teams guard him. He'll always never have a good first step and his handle wil always likely be shaky but if he can keep pushing back his natural shooting range, who knows.

One big reason why Derozan never became good at it was because for half of his career he was only shooting about 1.7 3s a game. Derozan was a really good FT shooter and had a good mid range, so who knows honestly if he was encouraged to take more 3s earlier.

[tsherkin]

what was surprising was seeing Kawhi there.

What is surprising about it?

Surprising to see that at 34 years after how many injuries he's had, he's still among the elite of the elite in terms of impact. You don't see guys like Curry, Lebron, Durant, AD etc. near that impact anymore, but Kawhi according to that graph is still impacting the game on the tier of Giannis and Shai.

I suspect there are questions with a metric that shows Kawhi and Shai in a comparable impact tier, but that said? Leonard remains an extremely effective and efficient scorer. He's giving 'er at 28.1 ppg on 63.2% TS right now, which is fairly insane. Even if he isn't the same kind of playmaker, he's still an extremely dangerous offensive player. He's posting a 49.7 / 40.0 / 94.2 shooting split right now, leading the league in FT%.

So he's crushing it, and you know his mid-range game is absurd.

[tsherkin]

I think he has a higher ceiling than Pippen offensively, but a lower defensive one.

I am inclined to agree with this. Pippen had no iso game, no jumper and withered against real defenses as a result. He had very little in the way of active scoring skill.

Barnes being a 82% FT shooter isn't a fluke I believe,

That part has had slightly higher volume than his 3pt shooting, and has been maintaining while the 3 declines, so that's quite encouraging. His splits are a little weird, though. 70.8% in October, 92.6% in November, 79.5% in December and 81.0% so far in January. But he's been in the neighborhood since November, which is very positive.

One big reason why Derozan never became good at it was because for half of his career he was only shooting about 1.7 3s a game. Derozan was a really good FT shooter and had a good mid range, so who knows honestly if he was encouraged to take more 3s earlier.

DeRozan remains fairly inconsistent from 3, and was quite bad at them when he was with us. And he's still only had two seasons above 33.8%. That's just an issue for him, he hasn't been able to make it a key part of his game. His far larger issue was his inability to get to the rim enough. He shammed for fouls, attacked in transition and was a Merchant of the Mid-Range, and it was trivial for the D to get him bombing from 20 feet. Didn't have the handle to get there more consistently, and that's what really undercut his efficiency. He's also been like 3.4% better at the foul line since leaving Toronto (82.7% with us, 86.1% since), but yeah, that rim proportion has been consistently dwindling.

I think Demar was trying to increase his 3pt shooting the entire time, to be honest, it just didn't become a thing for him. Maybe because of his shooting motion, maybe because of a mental block, who knows?

Scottie's got other tools. He's already more willing to mix it up inside than Demar ever was, even as he developed his elbow post game. And Barnes has more physical tools which suit that type of action, too, so when he uses them properly, it often goes well.

[tsherkin]

[Indeed]

I think he has a higher ceiling than Pippen offensively, but a lower defensive one.

I am inclined to agree with this. Pippen had no iso game, no jumper and withered against real defenses as a result. He had very little in the way of active scoring skill.

Are you serious in Pippen had no iso game, no jumper? He blow by people with his quickness, got a post up game, pull up mid range jumper, etc. He is more comparable to McGrady. Even you search on Google, it tells you all these.

Watch on YouTube

[tsherkin]

Are you serious in Pippen had no iso game, no jumper? He blow by people with his quickness, got a post up game, pull up mid range jumper, etc. He is more comparable to McGrady. Even you search on Google, it tells you all these.

He isn't even close to McGrady. And looking at highlights reels will make anyone look particularly good. ANd yes, I was being slightly hyperbolic, but he really wasn't impressive as a scorer as far as comparing him to guys of a high level. His shot was demonstrably weak, his handle wasn't that impressive. He was an incredible, and sometimes underrated athlete, with decent size. But the lack of particularly impressive tools beyond that is what limited him, as long as we understand we're speaking in context of a player being a first option. There's a reason he was nothing special in the playoffs as a scorer, even alongside MJ. He wasn't a 3pt shooter except with the pulled-in line, and he was a weak FT shooter.

Pippen was a very good complementary player, and he worked out especially well alongside MJ in an era where you could run massive volume scoring through one guy and that wouldn't generally bite you in the ass.

But when we're comparing him to Scottie Barnes, Pippen's scoring isn't considerably more impressive in any way. Barnes has some post game, a some-time jumper, he is a much better FT shooter, etc, etc. They're even quite comparable on the offensive boards, which was another strong positive for Pip over his first decade.

But yeah, Pippen wasn't ever really a stunner as a scoring threat.

[Indeed]

Are you serious in Pippen had no iso game, no jumper? He blow by people with his quickness, got a post up game, pull up mid range jumper, etc. He is more comparable to McGrady. Even you search on Google, it tells you all these.

He isn't even close to McGrady. And looking at highlights reels will make anyone look particularly good. ANd yes, I was being slightly hyperbolic, but he really wasn't impressive as a scorer as far as comparing him to guys of a high level. His shot was demonstrably weak, his handle wasn't that impressive. He was an incredible, and sometimes underrated athlete, with decent size. But the lack of particularly impressive tools beyond that is what limited him, as long as we understand we're speaking in context of a player being a first option. There's a reason he was nothing special in the playoffs as a scorer, even alongside MJ. He wasn't a 3pt shooter except with the pulled-in line, and he was a weak FT shooter.

Pippen was a very good complementary player, and he worked out especially well alongside MJ in an era where you could run massive volume scoring through one guy and that wouldn't generally bite you in the ass.

But when we're comparing him to Scottie Barnes, Pippen's scoring isn't considerably more impressive in any way. Barnes has some post game, a some-time jumper, he is a much better FT shooter, etc, etc. They're even quite comparable on the offensive boards, which was another strong positive for Pip over his first decade.

But yeah, Pippen wasn't ever really a stunner as a scoring threat.

Pippen led the Chicago Bulls to a 55-27 record and the Eastern Conference Semifinals in 1994 without Jordan.
He and McGrady were voted 3rd highest on the regular season MVP.

Pippen has a very efficient postup game, meanwhile, Barnes doesn't, and Barnes ranked in the 50 percentile in postup based on NBA.com stats (synergy). You can say what you want with Barnes, but please stop claiming Pippen is at that level, particularly outside of the Raptors board, it is such a disrespect.

[Vampirate]

Are you serious in Pippen had no iso game, no jumper? He blow by people with his quickness, got a post up game, pull up mid range jumper, etc. He is more comparable to McGrady. Even you search on Google, it tells you all these.

He isn't even close to McGrady. And looking at highlights reels will make anyone look particularly good. ANd yes, I was being slightly hyperbolic, but he really wasn't impressive as a scorer as far as comparing him to guys of a high level. His shot was demonstrably weak, his handle wasn't that impressive. He was an incredible, and sometimes underrated athlete, with decent size. But the lack of particularly impressive tools beyond that is what limited him, as long as we understand we're speaking in context of a player being a first option. There's a reason he was nothing special in the playoffs as a scorer, even alongside MJ. He wasn't a 3pt shooter except with the pulled-in line, and he was a weak FT shooter.

Pippen was a very good complementary player, and he worked out especially well alongside MJ in an era where you could run massive volume scoring through one guy and that wouldn't generally bite you in the ass.

But when we're comparing him to Scottie Barnes, Pippen's scoring isn't considerably more impressive in any way. Barnes has some post game, a some-time jumper, he is a much better FT shooter, etc, etc. They're even quite comparable on the offensive boards, which was another strong positive for Pip over his first decade.

But yeah, Pippen wasn't ever really a stunner as a scoring threat.

Pippen led the Chicago Bulls to a 55-27 record and the Eastern Conference Semifinals in 1994 without Jordan.
He and McGrady were voted 3rd highest on the regular season MVP.

Pippen has a very efficient postup game, meanwhile, Barnes doesn't, and Barnes ranked in the 50 percentile in postup based on NBA.com stats (synergy). You can say what you want with Barnes, but please stop claiming Pippen is at that level, particularly outside of the Raptors board, it is such a disrespect.

He's not, pippen's 'defence' was a large part of what made him the player he was. Pippen didn't lead the Bulls like a James Harden does (purely offensively). Claiming that Pippen's 'offense' was the biggest factor to that Bulls record completely takes away from what his defense provides. And neither I, nor tsherkin will ever debate the 2 on the defensive end.

As for the Bulls, they lost their superstar, just like the Raptors lost kawhi, Pippen was a great all around talent, All Star, etc, but it was what 'else' he was providing besides his scoring that rose that team mainly, his scring was suffecient enough but not team carrying by itself.

As for comparisons to McGradey offensively let's stop. McGradey once averaged 32.1PPG, Pippen topped out at 22PPG. If Pippen could break 25+PPG, he would, but he couldn't.

Anyways, this was a hypothetical question, the question was 'could' Barnes surpass Pippen offensively, purely offensively. Do you think he has that hypothetical ceiling?

[Indeed]

He isn't even close to McGrady. And looking at highlights reels will make anyone look particularly good. ANd yes, I was being slightly hyperbolic, but he really wasn't impressive as a scorer as far as comparing him to guys of a high level. His shot was demonstrably weak, his handle wasn't that impressive. He was an incredible, and sometimes underrated athlete, with decent size. But the lack of particularly impressive tools beyond that is what limited him, as long as we understand we're speaking in context of a player being a first option. There's a reason he was nothing special in the playoffs as a scorer, even alongside MJ. He wasn't a 3pt shooter except with the pulled-in line, and he was a weak FT shooter.

Pippen was a very good complementary player, and he worked out especially well alongside MJ in an era where you could run massive volume scoring through one guy and that wouldn't generally bite you in the ass.

But when we're comparing him to Scottie Barnes, Pippen's scoring isn't considerably more impressive in any way. Barnes has some post game, a some-time jumper, he is a much better FT shooter, etc, etc. They're even quite comparable on the offensive boards, which was another strong positive for Pip over his first decade.

But yeah, Pippen wasn't ever really a stunner as a scoring threat.

Pippen led the Chicago Bulls to a 55-27 record and the Eastern Conference Semifinals in 1994 without Jordan.
He and McGrady were voted 3rd highest on the regular season MVP.

Pippen has a very efficient postup game, meanwhile, Barnes doesn't, and Barnes ranked in the 50 percentile in postup based on NBA.com stats (synergy). You can say what you want with Barnes, but please stop claiming Pippen is at that level, particularly outside of the Raptors board, it is such a disrespect.

He's not, pippen's 'defence' was a large part of what made him the player he was. Pippen didn't lead the Bulls like a James Harden does (purely offensively). Claiming that Pippen's 'offense' was the biggest factor to that Bulls record completely takes away from what his defense provides. And neither I, nor tsherkin will ever debate the 2 on the defensive end.

As for the Bulls, they lost their superstar, just like the Raptors lost kawhi, Pippen was a great all around talent, All Star, etc, but it was what 'else' he was providing besides his scoring that rose that team mainly, his scring was suffecient enough but not team carrying by itself.

As for comparisons to McGradey offensively let's stop. McGradey once averaged 32.1PPG, Pippen topped out at 22PPG. If Pippen could break 25+PPG, he would, but he couldn't.

Anyways, this was a hypothetical question, the question was 'could' Barnes surpass Pippen offensively, purely offensively. Do you think he has that hypothetical ceiling?

You sounded like 22ppg being the top 10 scoring as an alpha in those years has nothing to do with offense, which is just funny.

As for the question, if you can't determine the Pippen offense, how can you answer the question of someone surpassing him? Would you use top 10 scoring in the league to make that measurement?

[dballislife]

remember last season when scottie was jacking so many 3s and jumpers, he was playing like ingram and quick...now hes attacking and getting inside a lot more and playing more like rj...so happy his down hill and inside game took a step forward

[LoveMyRaps]

Scottie's head is hard to see, but I'm pretty sure that's his afro to the right of Maxey.

If so, an interesting list...Barnes impact seems to be at the level of Cade, Maxey, AD, Curry, Butler etc.

The top is unsurprising with Jokic, Shai, Wemby, Mitchell, Edwards, Luka...what was surprising was seeing Kawhi there.

Read on Twitter

Pretty sure that afro is of Jarrett Allen

Barnes is actually hidden behind LaMelo

[RoteSchroder]

Scottie's head is hard to see, but I'm pretty sure that's his afro to the right of Maxey.

If so, an interesting list...Barnes impact seems to be at the level of Cade, Maxey, AD, Curry, Butler etc.

The top is unsurprising with Jokic, Shai, Wemby, Mitchell, Edwards, Luka...what was surprising was seeing Kawhi there.

Read on Twitter

Pretty sure that afro is of Jarrett Allen

Barnes is actually hidden behind LaMelo

Is that defensive plus minus with Jokic at #1, Luka at #7?