2003-04 Peja Stojaković before Chris Webber came back from injury (57 RS games)

[E-Balla]

]
True.
But Sacramento had also their worst def rtg by a good margin that year so while I may overrating him a bit as a scorer you may also underrating him on defense.

Definitely not.

Playing Peja 40 mpg didn't help, and their frontcourt off the bench didn't stun. They missed Webber's defensive rebounding, of course. That, he was good at.

C. Webb was a great defender, and a top 10ish guy in a deep era. Like is Sengun had a better jumper and could defend on a borderline all D level.

[ReggiesKnicks]

]
True.
But Sacramento had also their worst def rtg by a good margin that year so while I may overrating him a bit as a scorer you may also underrating him on defense.

Definitely not.

Playing Peja 40 mpg didn't help, and their frontcourt off the bench didn't stun. They missed Webber's defensive rebounding, of course. That, he was good at.

C. Webb was a great defender, and a top 10ish guy in a deep era. Like is Sengun had a better jumper and could defend on a borderline all D level.

Great comparison. Webber was typically a bit overrated offensively but undersold defensively.

[JinKaz69]

]
True.
But Sacramento had also their worst def rtg by a good margin that year so while I may overrating him a bit as a scorer you may also underrating him on defense.

Definitely not.

Playing Peja 40 mpg didn't help, and their frontcourt off the bench didn't stun. They missed Webber's defensive rebounding, of course. That, he was good at.

C. Webb was a great defender, and a top 10ish guy in a deep era. Like is Sengun had a better jumper and could defend on a borderline all D level.

I like C-Webb but great defender and borderline all D level is too much.

He was a decent defender and became ugly in that end after his injury.

[Snakebites]

Chris Webber is a player I personally like and remember really enjoying watching, along with the rest of those early-mid 2000s Kings.

But yeah, the argument that CWebb's impact is overrated has a solid statistical basis.

I remember really hoping he'd sign with the Pistons in 2001, which obviously never happened. Given the trajectory the Pistons would go on in the next few years after that I'd say we were better off.

But yeah, Peja was terrific. His 2003-04 season was easily better than any season Webber had. That level of scoring output on that efficiency in the early 2000s is nothing short of amazing. 62.4% TS is crazy when the league average was only 51.6%.

[E-Balla]

Definitely not.

Playing Peja 40 mpg didn't help, and their frontcourt off the bench didn't stun. They missed Webber's defensive rebounding, of course. That, he was good at.

C. Webb was a great defender, and a top 10ish guy in a deep era. Like is Sengun had a better jumper and could defend on a borderline all D level.

I like C-Webb but great defender and borderline all D level is too much.

He was a decent defender and became ugly in that end after his injury.

He wasn't borderline all D back then, but he would be nowadays (he'd also play C which better suits him on that end).

[E-Balla]

Chris Webber is a player I personally like and remember really enjoying watching, along with the rest of those early-mid 2000s Kings.

But yeah, the argument that CWebb's impact is overrated has a solid statistical basis.

I remember really hoping he'd sign with the Pistons in 2001, which obviously never happened. Given the trajectory the Pistons would go on in the next few years after that I'd say we were better off.

But yeah, Peja was terrific. His 2003-04 season was easily better than any season Webber had.

Hilariously enough advanced stats love C. Webb. If anything he's underrated according to those. A clear top 75ish player all time nobody ever mentions.

[dhsilv2]

Chris Webber is a player I personally like and remember really enjoying watching, along with the rest of those early-mid 2000s Kings.

But yeah, the argument that CWebb's impact is overrated has a solid statistical basis.

I remember really hoping he'd sign with the Pistons in 2001, which obviously never happened. Given the trajectory the Pistons would go on in the next few years after that I'd say we were better off.

But yeah, Peja was terrific. His 2003-04 season was easily better than any season Webber had.

Hilariously enough advanced stats love C. Webb. If anything he's underrated according to those. A clear top 75ish player all time nobody ever mentions.

He's around 60th in VORP which is missing pre 1974. He's in the 60's in PER. 151 in career WS. 30 year xRAPM https://xrapm.com/table_pages/RAPM_30y.html doesn't have him remotely in the top 75 and I suspect once we remove low minute guys and weight it, we'll not see him in the top 75.

I'm not saying he can't be a top 75 guy. But I don't think there's a CLEAR statistical case for him there. Unless I'm missing something here.

[tsherkin]

2004 Webber was an awful year.

Like I said, he played 23 games that year. Evaluating him on his individual play that season would be unfair, and is not what I was doing. I was noting that letting Peja take a more forward role and integrating Brad Miller into the starting lineup did an exceptional job for them and produced the best offense that crew ever managed, even in Webber's better, heathier years.

But still C. Webb was a guy that had a nasty middy, could finish with the best of them, and his biggest weakness to me was his FT shooting and like you said how much he settled. Like cool he was a top 5 deep 2 shooter in the league, that's still a bad shot when the Kings offense is so efficient when ran properly.

He could certainly shoot. Kinda suffered from the same thing KG did at the time, only he was even less willing to work in the paint. Of course, he had also lost a lot of what let him attack from face up and get all the way there due to injuries, and his back to the basket game was wholly unremarkable even when he did use it. But his shooting and vision/passing made him well-suited to the elbow and other high post stuff Sacramento loved, and he did excel as a passing hub there. It wasn't that difficult a job in that offense, but he was an excellent passer.

[Snakebites]

2004 Webber was an awful year.

Like I said, he played 23 games that year. Evaluating him on his individual play that season would be unfair, and is not what I was doing. I was noting that letting Peja take a more forward role and integrating Brad Miller into the starting lineup did an exceptional job for them and produced the best offense that crew ever managed, even in Webber's better, heathier years.

But still C. Webb was a guy that had a nasty middy, could finish with the best of them, and his biggest weakness to me was his FT shooting and like you said how much he settled. Like cool he was a top 5 deep 2 shooter in the league, that's still a bad shot when the Kings offense is so efficient when ran properly.

He could certainly shoot. Kinda suffered from the same thing KG did at the time, only he was even less willing to work in the paint. Of course, he had also lost a lot of what let him attack from face up and get all the way there due to injuries, and his back to the basket game was wholly unremarkable even when he did use it. But his shooting and vision/passing made him well-suited to the elbow and other high post stuff Sacramento loved, and he did excel as a passing hub there. It wasn't that difficult a job in that offense, but he was an excellent passer.

Those teams also had Vlade Divac who was a terrific passer from the center position. It was just the type of offense they ran-everyone could pass.

But yeah, when they brought in Brad Miller to replace C-Webb it didn't really FEEL liike they lost all that much. Webber was a very good player who was more replacable than the volume stats might suggest.

Still better than over 99% of players who ever reach the NBA, but not a top 75 player IMO.

[tsherkin]

Those teams also had Vlade Divac who was a terrific passer from the center position. It was just the type of offense they ran-everyone could pass.

Yep. Vlade was an excellent passer. That whole team committed strongly to ball movement, and with wonderful results.

But yeah, when they brought in Brad Miller to replace C-Webb it didn't really FEEL liike they lost all that much. Webber was a very good player who was more replacable than the volume stats might suggest.

Still better than over 99% of players who ever reach the NBA, but not a top 75 player IMO.

Yup.

[ChiTownHero1992]

Peja was one of my favorite to watch in his era. Many of stated already but he was a notch before his time to shine. Peja in today's game would pretty easily be an All-star.

[MavsDirk41]

Loved Peja on the Mavs championship team. He had some big time moments for us in those playoffs. He would really thrive in todays nba.

[og15]

He was also All-NBA that year. Peja could have easily made 4 or 5 All-Star appearances in the modern NBA. He was born 15 years too early.

As someone mentioned, it's not a modern or past NBA issue, it's a health issue. If he stayed healthy with Indiana and New Orleans, why wouldn't he have made more All-Star teams?

I actually think that his game being so efficient compared to the baseline at that time due to shooting which was still not as valued as it should have been made him even better then, but he didn't stay healthy.

[E-Balla]

Chris Webber is a player I personally like and remember really enjoying watching, along with the rest of those early-mid 2000s Kings.

But yeah, the argument that CWebb's impact is overrated has a solid statistical basis.

I remember really hoping he'd sign with the Pistons in 2001, which obviously never happened. Given the trajectory the Pistons would go on in the next few years after that I'd say we were better off.

But yeah, Peja was terrific. His 2003-04 season was easily better than any season Webber had.

Hilariously enough advanced stats love C. Webb. If anything he's underrated according to those. A clear top 75ish player all time nobody ever mentions.

He's around 60th in VORP which is missing pre 1974. He's in the 60's in PER. 151 in career WS. 30 year xRAPM https://xrapm.com/table_pages/RAPM_30y.html doesn't have him remotely in the top 75 and I suspect once we remove low minute guys and weight it, we'll not see him in the top 75.

I'm not saying he can't be a top 75 guy. But I don't think there's a CLEAR statistical case for him there. Unless I'm missing something here.

RAPM is not good to use like that those stats would need to be turned into a WAR variant to be useful. Also it leaves out 4 productive seasons with good WOWY numbers.

And you just said he's top 75 in VORP and PER. That's a good statistical case. Being that he's 5x All NBA and 69th in career MVP shares I think he's clearly there. Look at his career vs a guy that's commonly seen as top 75 like Paul George and you'll see C. Webb has the edge.

[E-Balla]

Like I said, he played 23 games that year. Evaluating him on his individual play that season would be unfair, and is not what I was doing. I was noting that letting Peja take a more forward role and integrating Brad Miller into the starting lineup did an exceptional job for them and produced the best offense that crew ever managed, even in Webber's better, heathier years.

He would've been best utilized dropping to 20-22 PPG and letting Bibby score 18-20 like he did in the playoffs.

He could certainly shoot. Kinda suffered from the same thing KG did at the time, only he was even less willing to work in the paint. Of course, he had also lost a lot of what let him attack from face up and get all the way there due to injuries, and his back to the basket game was wholly unremarkable even when he did use it. But his shooting and vision/passing made him well-suited to the elbow and other high post stuff Sacramento loved, and he did excel as a passing hub there. It wasn't that difficult a job in that offense, but he was an excellent passer.

C. Webb like KG and most other 6'10 ball handlers with jumpers was born too early. He'd be nasty in today's game.

[E-Balla]

2004 Webber was an awful year.

Like I said, he played 23 games that year. Evaluating him on his individual play that season would be unfair, and is not what I was doing. I was noting that letting Peja take a more forward role and integrating Brad Miller into the starting lineup did an exceptional job for them and produced the best offense that crew ever managed, even in Webber's better, heathier years.

But still C. Webb was a guy that had a nasty middy, could finish with the best of them, and his biggest weakness to me was his FT shooting and like you said how much he settled. Like cool he was a top 5 deep 2 shooter in the league, that's still a bad shot when the Kings offense is so efficient when ran properly.

He could certainly shoot. Kinda suffered from the same thing KG did at the time, only he was even less willing to work in the paint. Of course, he had also lost a lot of what let him attack from face up and get all the way there due to injuries, and his back to the basket game was wholly unremarkable even when he did use it. But his shooting and vision/passing made him well-suited to the elbow and other high post stuff Sacramento loved, and he did excel as a passing hub there. It wasn't that difficult a job in that offense, but he was an excellent passer.

Those teams also had Vlade Divac who was a terrific passer from the center position. It was just the type of offense they ran-everyone could pass.

But yeah, when they brought in Brad Miller to replace C-Webb it didn't really FEEL liike they lost all that much. Webber was a very good player who was more replacable than the volume stats might suggest.

Still better than over 99% of players who ever reach the NBA, but not a top 75 player IMO.

75 might be a stretch, I think 100 we can say for sure he belongs.

[cupcakesnake]

Peja was a 6'10" elite movement shooter with a slick pull-up off the dribble game. A guy that big, with that kind of shooting ability, who could get into the lane was a lot to deal with, especially because he was a moving target. He's one of the best shooters ever, one of the biggest elite shooters ever, and one of the best movement shooters ever.

He died and went to movement shooter heaven in 2004, with multiple elite passing/screening bigs (Divac and Miller), a good playmaking wing (Christie), and Rick Adelman building the whole Princeton offense around Peja. Offensively, this situation amplified Peja's strengths. Defensively, this was a porous lineup with very few above average defenders in the rotation.

[tsherkin]

He would've been best utilized dropping to 20-22 PPG and letting Bibby score 18-20 like he did in the playoffs.

Yeah, he absolutely would have been better-used at a lower volume, for sure.

C. Webb like KG and most other 6'10 ball handlers with jumpers was born too early. He'd be nasty in today's game.

I think he'd be fairly similar, to be honest.

[NZB2323]

The Kings of that era had 2 MVP-level players (Webber & Peja), Bibby who was the Jamal Murray of his time, a top-tier perimeter defender in Doug Christie, Vlade Divac who was one of the best passing centers ever and could guard Shaq as well as anyone, and several 6MOY-level players off the bench. They were uber-stacked and fit perfectly together.

The Kings were super deep, had great chemistry, and even had Hedo off the bench, but I never considered CWebb or Peja to be MVP level players. That team was greater than the sum of their parts and I feel like the MVP level players at the time were Duncan, Shaq, KG, Kidd, Dirk, Kobe, and Tmac.

CWebb was on the same level as Paul Pierce and Pau Gasol, except for CWebb played worse in the playoffs. CWebb was kind of like Carlos Boozer, a power forward who could hit midrange shots who was overrated.

Peja played very well during the 04 season and very poorly in the playoffs. I know he finished top 4 in MVP voting one year, but that’s the only year he received MVP votes. Saying Peja was a MVP level player is like saying Joakim Noah was a MVP level player.

[E-Balla]

He would've been best utilized dropping to 20-22 PPG and letting Bibby score 18-20 like he did in the playoffs.

Yeah, he absolutely would have been better-used at a lower volume, for sure.

C. Webb like KG and most other 6'10 ball handlers with jumpers was born too early. He'd be nasty in today's game.

I think he'd be fairly similar, to be honest.

Similar in terms of being All NBA and leading great squads. I meant in terms of the type of numbers he'd get.