2003-04 Peja Stojaković before Chris Webber came back from injury (57 RS games)

[E-Balla]

The Kings of that era had 2 MVP-level players (Webber & Peja), Bibby who was the Jamal Murray of his time, a top-tier perimeter defender in Doug Christie, Vlade Divac who was one of the best passing centers ever and could guard Shaq as well as anyone, and several 6MOY-level players off the bench. They were uber-stacked and fit perfectly together.

The Kings were super deep, had great chemistry, and even had Hedo off the bench, but I never considered CWebb or Peja to be MVP level players. That team was greater than the sum of their parts and I feel like the MVP level players at the time were Duncan, Shaq, KG, Kidd, Dirk, Kobe, and Tmac.

CWebb was on the same level as Paul Pierce and Pau Gasol, except for CWebb played worse in the playoffs. CWebb was kind of like Carlos Boozer, a power forward who could hit midrange shots who was overrated.

Peja played very well during the 04 season and very poorly in the playoffs. I know he finished top 4 in MVP voting one year, but that’s the only year he received MVP votes. Saying Peja was a MVP level player is like saying Joakim Noah was a MVP level player.

Carlos Boozer? What are we doing here man? And how in the hell is Pau on C. Webb/Paul Pierce level?

[tsherkin]

Similar in terms of being All NBA and leading great squads. I meant in terms of the type of numbers he'd get.

Mmm. I don't know that he'd be All-NBA in this era. I figure some team would probably inappropriately run volume through him as well, but there's a chance he might take to 3pt shooting and end up looking better in today's context, which would be interesting.

[NZB2323]

The Kings of that era had 2 MVP-level players (Webber & Peja), Bibby who was the Jamal Murray of his time, a top-tier perimeter defender in Doug Christie, Vlade Divac who was one of the best passing centers ever and could guard Shaq as well as anyone, and several 6MOY-level players off the bench. They were uber-stacked and fit perfectly together.

The Kings were super deep, had great chemistry, and even had Hedo off the bench, but I never considered CWebb or Peja to be MVP level players. That team was greater than the sum of their parts and I feel like the MVP level players at the time were Duncan, Shaq, KG, Kidd, Dirk, Kobe, and Tmac.

CWebb was on the same level as Paul Pierce and Pau Gasol, except for CWebb played worse in the playoffs. CWebb was kind of like Carlos Boozer, a power forward who could hit midrange shots who was overrated.

Peja played very well during the 04 season and very poorly in the playoffs. I know he finished top 4 in MVP voting one year, but that’s the only year he received MVP votes. Saying Peja was a MVP level player is like saying Joakim Noah was a MVP level player.

Carlos Boozer? What are we doing here man? And how in the hell is Pau on C. Webb/Paul Pierce level?

Boozer and CWebb both made the WCF as overrated midrange shooting power forwards. Stats from their WCF run:

Boozer 2007 playoffs: 24, 12, and 3, 57.6 TS%, 24.2 PER

CWebb 2002 playoffs: 24, 11, and 5, 52.4 TS%, 22.1 PER

And are you saying Pau isn’t as good as CWebb/Paul Pierce or that CWebb/Paul Pierce aren’t as good as Pau?

CWebb won a lot of games because he was on a stacked team. In 2004 the King went 44-15 in games he missed, and 11-12 in games he played.

[dhsilv2]

Hilariously enough advanced stats love C. Webb. If anything he's underrated according to those. A clear top 75ish player all time nobody ever mentions.

He's around 60th in VORP which is missing pre 1974. He's in the 60's in PER. 151 in career WS. 30 year xRAPM https://xrapm.com/table_pages/RAPM_30y.html doesn't have him remotely in the top 75 and I suspect once we remove low minute guys and weight it, we'll not see him in the top 75.

I'm not saying he can't be a top 75 guy. But I don't think there's a CLEAR statistical case for him there. Unless I'm missing something here.

RAPM is not good to use like that those stats would need to be turned into a WAR variant to be useful. Also it leaves out 4 productive seasons with good WOWY numbers.

And you just said he's top 75 in VORP and PER. That's a good statistical case. Being that he's 5x All NBA and 69th in career MVP shares I think he's clearly there. Look at his career vs a guy that's commonly seen as top 75 like Paul George and you'll see C. Webb has the edge.

Barely top 75 VORP would mean, not top 80 given it's limits. I covered that even if we convert the RAPM to WAR he wouldn't be showing a top 75 profile.

Paul George is 48th in career VORP and 123 in career Winshare. Both place him well ahead of Webber. I'll leave out RAPM since you don't like it.

So while I think George is a very iffy top 75 guy, the statistical case is better for him.

I guess the counter might be PER but you'd be about the last man standing using PER as the "best" metric to argue for an advanced stats case.

If you want to argue Webber as a top 75 guy, there's a case. But advanced stats in no way paint a clear one.

[E-Balla]

Boozer and CWebb both made the WCF as overrated midrange shooting power forwards. Stats from their WCF run:

Boozer 2007 playoffs: 24, 12, and 3, 57.6 TS%, 24.2 PER

CWebb 2002 playoffs: 24, 11, and 5, 52.4 TS%, 22.1 PER

And are you saying Pau isn’t as good as CWebb/Paul Pierce or that CWebb/Paul Pierce aren’t as good as Pau?

CWebb won a lot of games because he was on a stacked team. In 2004 the King went 44-15 in games he missed, and 11-12 in games he played.

Boozer wasn't even the best player on his team, and 2007 vs 2002 aren't really the same in terms of how the game was called. Also 2004 was AFTER Webber got hurt.

Pau isn't anywhere near C. Webb or Pierce. Like at all. He was struggling to make the playoffs out West and was like a 1 time all star pre Kobe. He's gotten vastly overrated in hindsight because people don't want to give Kobe his credit.

[E-Balla]

Barely top 75 VORP would mean,

62 isn't barely top 75.

not top 80 given it's limits. I covered that even if we convert the RAPM to WAR he wouldn't be showing a top 75 profile.

No you didn't. You just said you assume this is true. That's totally different.

Paul George is 48th in career VORP and 123 in career Winshare. Both place him well ahead of Webber. I'll leave out RAPM since you don't like it.

Paul George has a career 44.7 VORP while C. Webb has a 42.1. That's not "well ahead". PG has 91.1 winshares and C. Webb has 84.7. That's not well ahead. Then you add in that PG is a 5 time 3rd team all league, 1 time first team while C. Webb is 1 time first team all league, 3 times 2nd team, and 1 time 3rd team. C. Webb is 69th all time in MVP shares (over Elvin Hayes for example) while PG is 86th.

I don't mind RAPM, but we have to understand what it measures and it's useless in a context like this. A guy like Westbrook that was a +/- god (+6 RAPM 5 year peak) and fell off but not to below replacement level has a low 30 year RAPM (1.0) but his peak WAR would outweigh his lack of WAR in his later seasons. C. Webb is another guy like that, but even worse because we don't have his early years and what we do have in his pre 01 RAPM is the best RAPM numbers of his career.

So while I think George is a very iffy top 75 guy, the statistical case is better for him.

I guess the counter might be PER but you'd be about the last man standing using PER as the "best" metric to argue for an advanced stats case.

If you want to argue Webber as a top 75 guy, there's a case. But advanced stats in no way paint a clear one.

I'm not saying he's 100% top 75. I'm saying he's clearly in the convo IMO and for a guy that as far as I can remember has never even made a realgm top 100 while guys like PG who are similar to him make top 75 he's super underrated.

[FrodoBaggins]

]
True.
But Sacramento had also their worst def rtg by a good margin that year so while I may overrating him a bit as a scorer you may also underrating him on defense.

Definitely not.

Playing Peja 40 mpg didn't help, and their frontcourt off the bench didn't stun. They missed Webber's defensive rebounding, of course. That, he was good at.

C. Webb was a great defender, and a top 10ish guy in a deep era. Like is Sengun had a better jumper and could defend on a borderline all D level.

Cameron Boozer has me watching Kings Chris Webber and Phoenix/Houston Charles Barkley highlights. Historically, he seems most similar to strong, 250+ lbs versatile PFs that can handle, pass, and shoot. If Boozer can be an efficiency-maxxed, better shooting and shot selection version of C-Webb but with lesser defense, that's a great player. Worthy of the 1st pick.

[E-Balla]

Definitely not.

Playing Peja 40 mpg didn't help, and their frontcourt off the bench didn't stun. They missed Webber's defensive rebounding, of course. That, he was good at.

C. Webb was a great defender, and a top 10ish guy in a deep era. Like is Sengun had a better jumper and could defend on a borderline all D level.

Cameron Boozer has me watching Kings Chris Webber and Phoenix/Houston Charles Barkley highlights. Historically, he seems most similar to strong, 250+ lbs versatile PFs that can handle, pass, and shoot. If Boozer can be an efficiency-maxxed, better shooting and shot selection version of C-Webb but with lesser defense, that's a great player. Worthy of the 1st pick.

Boozer is a less athletic C. Webb with a deeper jumper and that's not buns from the freethrow line to me.

[dhsilv2]

Barely top 75 VORP would mean,

62 isn't barely top 75.

not top 80 given it's limits. I covered that even if we convert the RAPM to WAR he wouldn't be showing a top 75 profile.

No you didn't. You just said you assume this is true. That's totally different.

Paul George is 48th in career VORP and 123 in career Winshare. Both place him well ahead of Webber. I'll leave out RAPM since you don't like it.

Paul George has a career 44.7 VORP while C. Webb has a 42.1. That's not "well ahead". PG has 91.1 winshares and C. Webb has 84.7. That's not well ahead. Then you add in that PG is a 5 time 3rd team all league, 1 time first team while C. Webb is 1 time first team all league, 3 times 2nd team, and 1 time 3rd team. C. Webb is 69th all time in MVP shares (over Elvin Hayes for example) while PG is 86th.

I don't mind RAPM, but we have to understand what it measures and it's useless in a context like this. A guy like Westbrook that was a +/- god (+6 RAPM 5 year peak) and fell off but not to below replacement level has a low 30 year RAPM (1.0) but his peak WAR would outweigh his lack of WAR in his later seasons. C. Webb is another guy like that, but even worse because we don't have his early years and what we do have in his pre 01 RAPM is the best RAPM numbers of his career.

So while I think George is a very iffy top 75 guy, the statistical case is better for him.

I guess the counter might be PER but you'd be about the last man standing using PER as the "best" metric to argue for an advanced stats case.

If you want to argue Webber as a top 75 guy, there's a case. But advanced stats in no way paint a clear one.

I'm not saying he's 100% top 75. I'm saying he's clearly in the convo IMO and for a guy that as far as I can remember has never even made a realgm top 100 while guys like PG who are similar to him make top 75 he's super underrated.

62 when we're missing about 25 years of basketball is barely. Just think off hand. Russell, Wilt, Oscar, West, Mikkan, Pettit, Havlicek, Cousy (not sure I have him in the clear 75 but most do), Barry, Schayes, Lanier (missing a few years), Arizin, Thurmond, Hayes, and whoever else I'm not thinking about. There's at least 10-15 guys from that era we have to at least strongly consider.

I'm not sure why you keep wanting to talk about all nba stuff. You said advanced stats love him. So those are a different conversation.

Hilariously enough advanced stats love C. Webb. If anything he's underrated according to those. A clear top 75ish player all time nobody ever mentions.

This was what I quoted. You're saying the advanced stats love him and then said he's a clear top 75 guy. Now I guess I could be taking a leap to assume that if advanced stats LOVE him, that they would make the case he's a clear top 75 guy. That was also the guy you quoted, saying that advanced stats give us a reason to downgrade webber from where we viewed him in his career (why the all nba comments seem werid).

As for RAPM, we're missing 2 full seasons. And 1995 he only played 54 games. We're not really missing much. His first year with RAPM is also his 3rd best year in VORP so that would make sense it was one of his best RAPM years. It doesn't paint a picture that we're missing something massively in the data sets.

His 2 year RAPM (because it's easy and public) he is 44, 53, 80, 49, 44, and 47 from 1997-2002. XRAPM is more favorable with him 28, 32, 20, 30, 16, and 26 over that same period. VORP here never peaks higher than 6th and has no other top 10s (11th and twice he was 12th). WS has his peak at 10th, once at 16th and no other top 20 finishes.

Advanced stats are not painting Webber as a clear top 75 guy. They seem to paint the picture that he was perhaps overrated in his era. So we either argue that they're missing his value as a shot creator and the volume value he added (which I guess PER is trying to make the case for).

So again...unless I'm missing something. The other poster was very correct. Advanced stats would paint the picture that Webber was overrated in his era. If that's true or not is another topic.

[FrodoBaggins]

C. Webb was a great defender, and a top 10ish guy in a deep era. Like is Sengun had a better jumper and could defend on a borderline all D level.

Cameron Boozer has me watching Kings Chris Webber and Phoenix/Houston Charles Barkley highlights. Historically, he seems most similar to strong, 250+ lbs versatile PFs that can handle, pass, and shoot. If Boozer can be an efficiency-maxxed, better shooting and shot selection version of C-Webb but with lesser defense, that's a great player. Worthy of the 1st pick.

Boozer is a less athletic C. Webb with a deeper jumper and that's not buns from the freethrow line to me.

Did C-Webb avoid foul-drawing/playing physical inside because of his free-throw shooting woes? His FTr is quite low for someone with that combination of size, strength, and power.

[tsherkin]

Did C-Webb avoid foul-drawing/playing physical inside because of his free-throw shooting woes? His FTr is quite low for someone with that combination of size, strength, and power.

Nah, it's because he was soft about contact and loved his jumper. Even when he was fairly athletic pre-injury and in his youth, he still didn't dominate in that regard at an elite level (though he had a reasonable FTr for quite a while).

[cupcakesnake]

Boozer and CWebb both made the WCF as overrated midrange shooting power forwards. Stats from their WCF run:

Boozer 2007 playoffs: 24, 12, and 3, 57.6 TS%, 24.2 PER

CWebb 2002 playoffs: 24, 11, and 5, 52.4 TS%, 22.1 PER

And are you saying Pau isn’t as good as CWebb/Paul Pierce or that CWebb/Paul Pierce aren’t as good as Pau?

CWebb won a lot of games because he was on a stacked team. In 2004 the King went 44-15 in games he missed, and 11-12 in games he played.

Boozer wasn't even the best player on his team, and 2007 vs 2002 aren't really the same in terms of how the game was called. Also 2004 was AFTER Webber got hurt.

Pau isn't anywhere near C. Webb or Pierce. Like at all. He was struggling to make the playoffs out West and was like a 1 time all star pre Kobe. He's gotten vastly overrated in hindsight because people don't want to give Kobe his credit.

C.Webb was better than Boozer. He was a better athlete, and had the extra dimension of passing. They were similar as scorers: some post game with good (but not great) mid range shooting. Webber was vastly better as a defender than Boozer was. I think C.Webb was overrated at the stuff he's remembered for (his passes were more flashy than functional sometimes, and his scoring was very meh), but underrated at some stuff people don't remember him for. Before his injury, he had a bit of physical dominance to him on both ends. Not an elite defender at all, but should never be compared to someone like Booz.

Big disagree on Pau. For me it's the opposite: Kobe fans want to give Kobe more credit, so Pau gets diminished. Pau was bigger than Webber, and had better effort defensively. Young Pau was a really good rim protector, and the Lakers defense was never bad with Pau at center until he started losing some mobility in his 30s. I think Pau was a more versatile and functional passer than Webber, even if Webber made it look cooler. The triangle ran so smoothly whenever Pau got those high-post touches. Pau wasn't a good passer right away though, it wasn't until his later Memphis years, and then it really shone in LA. As scorers? Webber took way more shots and used way more touches to not get much more done. Pau could get you 20 on 10 shots, where Webber would get you 25 but be taking twice as many attempts to do it. I don't see what the argument for Webber is besides volume.

Pau played on very weak Memphis teams, and still made the playoffs in one of the strongest Western Conferences of all-time. His best teammates were guys like James Posey, White Chocolate, and Shane Battier, and they managed a 50-win season. They get to the playoffs, and were a knife at a gun fight playing stacked Spurs, Mavs, and Suns teams. I view his time in Memphis as more impressive than not.

[E-Balla]

62 when we're missing about 25 years of basketball is barely. Just think off hand. Russell, Wilt, Oscar, West, Mikkan, Pettit, Havlicek, Cousy (not sure I have him in the clear 75 but most do), Barry, Schayes, Lanier (missing a few years), Arizin, Thurmond, Hayes, and whoever else I'm not thinking about. There's at least 10-15 guys from that era we have to at least strongly consider.

I'm not sure why you keep wanting to talk about all nba stuff. You said advanced stats love him. So those are a different conversation.

Hilariously enough advanced stats love C. Webb. If anything he's underrated according to those. A clear top 75ish player all time nobody ever mentions.

This was what I quoted. You're saying the advanced stats love him and then said he's a clear top 75 guy. Now I guess I could be taking a leap to assume that if advanced stats LOVE him, that they would make the case he's a clear top 75 guy. That was also the guy you quoted, saying that advanced stats give us a reason to downgrade webber from where we viewed him in his career (why the all nba comments seem werid).

I mean if I'm talking advanced stats I'm not including older guys, because they don't have them, but even then he's got an argument to being top 75. And remember he didn't make the NBA 75, and he's not commonly seen as top 75. His numbers are OVER what his career is viewed at.

As for RAPM, we're missing 2 full seasons. And 1995 he only played 54 games. We're not really missing much. His first year with RAPM is also his 3rd best year in VORP so that would make sense it was one of his best RAPM years. It doesn't paint a picture that we're missing something massively in the data sets.

His 2 year RAPM (because it's easy and public) he is 44, 53, 80, 49, 44, and 47 from 1997-2002. XRAPM is more favorable with him 28, 32, 20, 30, 16, and 26 over that same period. VORP here never peaks higher than 6th and has no other top 10s (11th and twice he was 12th). WS has his peak at 10th, once at 16th and no other top 20 finishes.

Advanced stats are not painting Webber as a clear top 75 guy. They seem to paint the picture that he was perhaps overrated in his era. So we either argue that they're missing his value as a shot creator and the volume value he added (which I guess PER is trying to make the case for).

So again...unless I'm missing something. The other poster was very correct. Advanced stats would paint the picture that Webber was overrated in his era. If that's true or not is another topic.

We're missing more than 2 seasons in RAPM but beyond that he's 5 times all league. According to what you just said he has 4 years near top 10 in VORP, his RAPM was top 30ish (which is All NBA level for franchise star players, considering RAPM isn't equal for all players and has NO minute or role adjustments), and WS is flat out garbage if used that way (it values efficient bigs that get a lot of defensive rebounds).

From 94 to 03 (a decade) C. Webb is 15th in BPM and 9th in VORP (only under Karl, Shaq, Stockton, Reggie, DRob, GP, KG, Scottie, Reggie, and right above J. Kidd and Duncan - all clear top 75 guys). As trash as I think win shares is he's 13th in win shares in that period as well.

[NZB2323]

Boozer and CWebb both made the WCF as overrated midrange shooting power forwards. Stats from their WCF run:

Boozer 2007 playoffs: 24, 12, and 3, 57.6 TS%, 24.2 PER

CWebb 2002 playoffs: 24, 11, and 5, 52.4 TS%, 22.1 PER

And are you saying Pau isn’t as good as CWebb/Paul Pierce or that CWebb/Paul Pierce aren’t as good as Pau?

CWebb won a lot of games because he was on a stacked team. In 2004 the King went 44-15 in games he missed, and 11-12 in games he played.

Boozer wasn't even the best player on his team, and 2007 vs 2002 aren't really the same in terms of how the game was called. Also 2004 was AFTER Webber got hurt.

Pau isn't anywhere near C. Webb or Pierce. Like at all. He was struggling to make the playoffs out West and was like a 1 time all star pre Kobe. He's gotten vastly overrated in hindsight because people don't want to give Kobe his credit.

Gasol made the playoffs 3 years in a row, winning 50, 45, and 49 games. CWebb was on a team that went 44-15 without him. Gasol didn’t have playoff success but he was going up against the 2004 Spurs, 2005 Suns, and 2006 Mavs. Who was the 2nd best player on the Grizzlies?

You say Gasol got overrated playing with Kobe, but how many playoff series did Kobe win without Shaq or Gasol?

Paul Pierce made the ECF in 2002, but that was with a Celtics team that won 49 games. That Celtics team wasn’t beating the Spurs, Suns, or Mavs.

Stats like PER adjust for era, and Boozer has the better PER in his conference finals run. TS+ also adjusts for era and Boozer was at 106 and CWebb was at 104.

The 2002 Kings were 17-5 without CWebb. Like you said initially, he was on a stacked team.

Even if you’re going by MVP voting, which probably overrates him, for his 4 all-star years in Sacramento he finished on average at 7.5. So with him being the 7th-8th best player in the league, he wasn’t really MVP caliber.

And Webber got most of those votes because he was on a stacked team that won a lot. The year he was hurt one of his teammates finished 4th in MVP. That doesn’t mean that Webber or Peja were better than Duncan, Shaq, KG, Dirk, Kidd, Kobe, or Tmac, who were the true MVP caliber players during that time.

[dhsilv2]

62 when we're missing about 25 years of basketball is barely. Just think off hand. Russell, Wilt, Oscar, West, Mikkan, Pettit, Havlicek, Cousy (not sure I have him in the clear 75 but most do), Barry, Schayes, Lanier (missing a few years), Arizin, Thurmond, Hayes, and whoever else I'm not thinking about. There's at least 10-15 guys from that era we have to at least strongly consider.

I'm not sure why you keep wanting to talk about all nba stuff. You said advanced stats love him. So those are a different conversation.

Hilariously enough advanced stats love C. Webb. If anything he's underrated according to those. A clear top 75ish player all time nobody ever mentions.

This was what I quoted. You're saying the advanced stats love him and then said he's a clear top 75 guy. Now I guess I could be taking a leap to assume that if advanced stats LOVE him, that they would make the case he's a clear top 75 guy. That was also the guy you quoted, saying that advanced stats give us a reason to downgrade webber from where we viewed him in his career (why the all nba comments seem werid).

I mean if I'm talking advanced stats I'm not including older guys, because they don't have them, but even then he's got an argument to being top 75. And remember he didn't make the NBA 75, and he's not commonly seen as top 75. His numbers are OVER what his career is viewed at.

As for RAPM, we're missing 2 full seasons. And 1995 he only played 54 games. We're not really missing much. His first year with RAPM is also his 3rd best year in VORP so that would make sense it was one of his best RAPM years. It doesn't paint a picture that we're missing something massively in the data sets.

His 2 year RAPM (because it's easy and public) he is 44, 53, 80, 49, 44, and 47 from 1997-2002. XRAPM is more favorable with him 28, 32, 20, 30, 16, and 26 over that same period. VORP here never peaks higher than 6th and has no other top 10s (11th and twice he was 12th). WS has his peak at 10th, once at 16th and no other top 20 finishes.

Advanced stats are not painting Webber as a clear top 75 guy. They seem to paint the picture that he was perhaps overrated in his era. So we either argue that they're missing his value as a shot creator and the volume value he added (which I guess PER is trying to make the case for).

So again...unless I'm missing something. The other poster was very correct. Advanced stats would paint the picture that Webber was overrated in his era. If that's true or not is another topic.

We're missing more than 2 seasons in RAPM but beyond that he's 5 times all league. According to what you just said he has 4 years near top 10 in VORP, his RAPM was top 30ish (which is All NBA level for franchise star players, considering RAPM isn't equal for all players and has NO minute or role adjustments), and WS is flat out garbage if used that way (it values efficient bigs that get a lot of defensive rebounds).

From 94 to 03 (a decade) C. Webb is 15th in BPM and 9th in VORP (only under Karl, Shaq, Stockton, Reggie, DRob, GP, KG, Scottie, Reggie, and right above J. Kidd and Duncan - all clear top 75 guys). As trash as I think win shares is he's 13th in win shares in that period as well.

You already covered his all nba and MVP share. Which would put him in the 55-84 group for most all nba's and includes a first team. MVP share is again strong for him. He was seen as a very clear top tier guy at his peak, especially given he missed some awards due to the power forward glut.

But anyway, thanks. I think we've proven there's no "clear" case based on advanced stats here. And that the advanced stats do paint an strong argument to downgrade him as others noted.

Also yes RAPM is missing 2 years. RAPM is from the 1996-1997 season forward. Webber has 2 full seasons (one questionable). Unless you're wanting me to include 1995-96 where he played 15 games.

[dhsilv2]

Did C-Webb avoid foul-drawing/playing physical inside because of his free-throw shooting woes? His FTr is quite low for someone with that combination of size, strength, and power.

Nah, it's because he was soft about contact and loved his jumper. Even when he was fairly athletic pre-injury and in his youth, he still didn't dominate in that regard at an elite level (though he had a reasonable FTr for quite a while).

Just to be nice to Webber. I think the love of his jumper was king here. He just loved that turn around mid range.

[tsherkin]

Just to be nice to Webber. I think the love of his jumper was king here. He just loved that turn around mid range.

KG, too.

And with deference to Webber, in the PBP era? He shot 41.8% from 16-23 feet on 29.5% of his total shooting volume. A shoddy 34.6% from 10-16 feet, though (on 14.7% of his total volume).

By contrast (and more for others than for you, since you already know, heh), KG shot 45.4% from 16-23 feet on 31.9% of his total volume, and 45.0% from 10-16 feet on 22.5% of his volume.

Webber wasn't on that level, but he did love the shot. And he wasn't bad. 16-23 feet from 2000-02 worked out to be 32.4% of his volume, or about 6.9 FGA/g. That's a LOOOOT of long twos.

[E-Balla]

Big disagree on Pau. For me it's the opposite: Kobe fans want to give Kobe more credit, so Pau gets diminished.

Pau without Kobe was a 1 time all star, had middling +/- numbers (both raw and advanced, he was a +4.1 on/off with a -0.5 on court rating, his RAPM was -0.2 from 2003 to 2007 which ranked 183rd in the league), had bad WOWY numbers. In 2005, 2007, and 2008 the Grizzlies were 55-109 with Pau (27.5 win pace) and 34-48 without Pau. Pau’s chemistry with Kobe and utility in the triangle completely changed his image as a player.

Pau was bigger than Webber, and had better effort defensively.

In LA? Maybe. In Memphis? Hell no.

Young Pau was a really good rim protector,

**** no. He was one of the worst defensive players in the league in Memphis and in LA at his best he was only average. At best.

and the Lakers defense was never bad with Pau at center until he started losing some mobility in his 30s.

Pau had the worst defensive on/off for players over 1000 minutes on both the 2009 and 2010 Lakers. They weren’t bad with him at C but it was because of everybody else he was extremely limited defensively.

I think Pau was a more versatile and functional passer than Webber, even if Webber made it look cooler. The triangle ran so smoothly whenever Pau got those high-post touches. Pau wasn't a good passer right away though, it wasn't until his later Memphis years, and then it really shone in LA. As scorers? Webber took way more shots and used way more touches to not get much more done. Pau could get you 20 on 10 shots, where Webber would get you 25 but be taking twice as many attempts to do it. I don't see what the argument for Webber is besides volume.

As passers C. Webb is better. Pau is good, but C. Webb is on another level. Pau needed the triangle to be a good passer, C. Webb didn’t need the Princeton.

As scorers Pau had much lower volume, and we’re really stretching things acting like he wasn’t seen as soft back then just like C. Webb. It took Kobe to unlock his offense. Pau had the same flaws as C. Webb without the ability to up his volume unlike C. Webb. Webber was a 20 ppg on 54 TS% guy pre Sac (while being a 55% FT shooter) while scoring 16 ppg on 60 TS% in his only 2 playoff series (shooting 39% from the FT line). When he played peak KG after his injury he did better than Pau did against KG in the 08 Finals. Outside of being spoonfed by Kobe or getting garbage buckets against the Spurs in 04 he’s never looked great as a scorer in the playoffs. He has 20 series in his prime and had a negative rTS% in 8 of those series despite only being a 17 ppg guy. Webber as a 22 ppg guy in the playoffs had a positive rTS% in 5 of 10 series in his prime.

Pau played on very weak Memphis teams, and still made the playoffs in one of the strongest Western Conferences of all-time.

Again those teams were better without him. For example in 05 they went 17-9 without Pau. If they didn’t do that he’d have missed the playoffs. Also those teams were talented.

His best teammates were guys like James Posey, White Chocolate, and Shane Battier, and they managed a 50-win season. They get to the playoffs, and were a knife at a gun fight playing stacked Spurs, Mavs, and Suns teams. I view his time in Memphis as more impressive than not.

2x NBA Champion James Posey, NBA Champion Jason Williams who C. Webb also went to the playoffs with 3 times with him being a top 3 guy on the team along with Vlade including winning a series in 01 when the Kings had the #2 SRS in the league and won 55 games (they had Peja as a star and Christie added by then and J. Will was the 5th best guy), 2 time champion Shane Battier who’s one of the best perimeter defenders of the 2000s that started for 50+ win teams basically his whole career and was a Yao injury from beating Pau and the 08 Lakers in the playoffs as the 3rd best player on the team, 2x NBA Champion Mike Miller who was 6MOTY in Memphis, and you’re forgetting guys like Eddie Jones. Memphis had a #2 defense one of those years, that was an absolutely great squad full of glue guys that went on to be key players on NBA champion squads (including Pau BTW). Also they only won 50 games one of those years and it was when they had Bonzi Wells (another very good glue guy).

Memphis was impressive, not saying they weren’t but it wasn’t only because of Pau those were some well built teams full of players that won everywhere they went.

[E-Balla]

Gasol made the playoffs 3 years in a row, winning 50, 45, and 49 games. CWebb was on a team that went 44-15 without him. Gasol didn’t have playoff success but he was going up against the 2004 Spurs, 2005 Suns, and 2006 Mavs. Who was the 2nd best player on the Grizzlies?

The Grizzlies went 17-9 without him in 05 lmao. The year they won 45 games it was in large part because Pau was holding them back. You're asking who's the 2nd best player like the Grizzlies ain't have a bunch of elite defenders around him and a top 5 defense in the league those years. Memphis was full of future NBA Champions.

You say Gasol got overrated playing with Kobe, but how many playoff series did Kobe win without Shaq or Gasol?

... Ok this must just be Kobe hate lmao.

Paul Pierce made the ECF in 2002, but that was with a Celtics team that won 49 games. That Celtics team wasn’t beating the Spurs, Suns, or Mavs.

Stats like PER adjust for era, and Boozer has the better PER in his conference finals run. TS+ also adjusts for era and Boozer was at 106 and CWebb was at 104.

The 2002 Kings were 17-5 without CWebb. Like you said initially, he was on a stacked team.

I mean I'm never going to say he wasn't on a stacked team. He was. And they performed like a stacked team. What does this have to do with Pau?

Even if you’re going by MVP voting, which probably overrates him, for his 4 all-star years in Sacramento he finished on average at 7.5. So with him being the 7th-8th best player in the league, he wasn’t really MVP caliber.

And Webber got most of those votes because he was on a stacked team that won a lot. The year he was hurt one of his teammates finished 4th in MVP. That doesn’t mean that Webber or Peja were better than Duncan, Shaq, KG, Dirk, Kidd, Kobe, or Tmac, who were the true MVP caliber players during that time.

I never said he was MVP level lol. He was at least all league level though and Pau wasn't. Both Peja and C. Webb were better than Pau.

[E-Balla]

You already covered his all nba and MVP share. Which would put him in the 55-84 group for most all nba's and includes a first team. MVP share is again strong for him. He was seen as a very clear top tier guy at his peak, especially given he missed some awards due to the power forward glut.

But anyway, thanks. I think we've proven there's no "clear" case based on advanced stats here. And that the advanced stats do paint an strong argument to downgrade him as others noted.

Also yes RAPM is missing 2 years. RAPM is from the 1996-1997 season forward. Webber has 2 full seasons (one questionable). Unless you're wanting me to include 1995-96 where he played 15 games.

Downgrade him from WHAT though? From not being in the RealGM top 100 list? Go look at most top 100 player all time lists you'll see Webber in the 90s. How are his numbers downgrading him from his consensus?