2003-04 Peja Stojaković before Chris Webber came back from injury (57 RS games)

[E-Balla]

Back on topic since we talking Peja he was such a great player even in 2011 while old and injured he was better than Pau Gasol in a season when Pau somehow was 2nd team all league. Dominated him. It's levels to this.

[dhsilv2]

You already covered his all nba and MVP share. Which would put him in the 55-84 group for most all nba's and includes a first team. MVP share is again strong for him. He was seen as a very clear top tier guy at his peak, especially given he missed some awards due to the power forward glut.

But anyway, thanks. I think we've proven there's no "clear" case based on advanced stats here. And that the advanced stats do paint an strong argument to downgrade him as others noted.

Also yes RAPM is missing 2 years. RAPM is from the 1996-1997 season forward. Webber has 2 full seasons (one questionable). Unless you're wanting me to include 1995-96 where he played 15 games.

Downgrade him from WHAT though? From not being in the RealGM top 100 list? Go look at most top 100 player all time lists you'll see Webber in the 90s. How are his numbers downgrading him from his consensus?

His ranking today and his perception at the time (the context) are two different things no? Today yes, things like RAPM have lowered him because the advanced stats aren't that strong for him (top even top 150 in WS). At the time he was seen as far more of a superstar.

[NZB2323]

Gasol made the playoffs 3 years in a row, winning 50, 45, and 49 games. CWebb was on a team that went 44-15 without him. Gasol didn’t have playoff success but he was going up against the 2004 Spurs, 2005 Suns, and 2006 Mavs. Who was the 2nd best player on the Grizzlies?

The Grizzlies went 17-9 without him in 05 lmao. The year they won 45 games it was in large part because Pau was holding them back. You're asking who's the 2nd best player like the Grizzlies ain't have a bunch of elite defenders around him and a top 5 defense in the league those years. Memphis was full of future NBA Champions.

You say Gasol got overrated playing with Kobe, but how many playoff series did Kobe win without Shaq or Gasol?

... Ok this must just be Kobe hate lmao.

Paul Pierce made the ECF in 2002, but that was with a Celtics team that won 49 games. That Celtics team wasn’t beating the Spurs, Suns, or Mavs.

Stats like PER adjust for era, and Boozer has the better PER in his conference finals run. TS+ also adjusts for era and Boozer was at 106 and CWebb was at 104.

The 2002 Kings were 17-5 without CWebb. Like you said initially, he was on a stacked team.

I mean I'm never going to say he wasn't on a stacked team. He was. And they performed like a stacked team. What does this have to do with Pau?

Even if you’re going by MVP voting, which probably overrates him, for his 4 all-star years in Sacramento he finished on average at 7.5. So with him being the 7th-8th best player in the league, he wasn’t really MVP caliber.

And Webber got most of those votes because he was on a stacked team that won a lot. The year he was hurt one of his teammates finished 4th in MVP. That doesn’t mean that Webber or Peja were better than Duncan, Shaq, KG, Dirk, Kidd, Kobe, or Tmac, who were the true MVP caliber players during that time.

I never said he was MVP level lol. He was at least all league level though and Pau wasn't. Both Peja and C. Webb were better than Pau.

1. 17-9 is a winning percentage of 65%. From 2000-2004, the King went 63-20 without CWebb, which is a winning percentage of 76%. Not only is it a bigger sample size, but it’s a better winning percentage. There was some talent on the Grizzlies, but Webber had Bibby outplaying Nash in the playoffs, Peja(4th in MVP voting in 04), Vlade, Christie, and the best bench in the NBA.

2. It’s not Kobe hate to say you shouldn’t hate a on player who didn’t win a stacked West without a 2nd star. How many playoff series did Pau win without Kobe is essentially the same argument as how many playoff series did Kobe win without Shaq. I haven’t said anything hateful about Kobe in this thread, I have him ranked higher than most people on Realgm, and my original argument was that Kobe was a MVP level player from this era and players like Webber and Pau were not.

3. A team having a 76 win % without their star is crazy. Right now the Thunder are the only team with a winning % that good.

4. You’re right, that wasn’t you that said he was MVP level. That was @karmew32, which was the first post I responded to in this thread.

[tsherkin]

At the time he was seen as far more of a superstar.

Oh yeah, people said all kinds of wildly-overrating things about him, mainly because of his raw scoring volume, during his actual career. The questions didn't really start until 04 and later. But in that period, even more so than now, people fell on their knees for raw PPG without any further thought beyond that single number. It was a little irritating.

[NZB2323]

Back on topic since we talking Peja he was such a great player even in 2011 while old and injured he was better than Pau Gasol in a season when Pau somehow was 2nd team all league. Dominated him. It's levels to this.

In 2011 Pau was 2nd in WS, 7th in VORP, 11th in PER, and 10th in BPM, but was dominated by Peja, who played in 33 games and averaged 9, 2, and 1?

Gasol also started the season with a game winning block on LeBron James and was much better defensively than Peja in 2011.

[E-Balla]

You already covered his all nba and MVP share. Which would put him in the 55-84 group for most all nba's and includes a first team. MVP share is again strong for him. He was seen as a very clear top tier guy at his peak, especially given he missed some awards due to the power forward glut.

But anyway, thanks. I think we've proven there's no "clear" case based on advanced stats here. And that the advanced stats do paint an strong argument to downgrade him as others noted.

Also yes RAPM is missing 2 years. RAPM is from the 1996-1997 season forward. Webber has 2 full seasons (one questionable). Unless you're wanting me to include 1995-96 where he played 15 games.

Downgrade him from WHAT though? From not being in the RealGM top 100 list? Go look at most top 100 player all time lists you'll see Webber in the 90s. How are his numbers downgrading him from his consensus?

His ranking today and his perception at the time (the context) are two different things no? Today yes, things like RAPM have lowered him because the advanced stats aren't that strong for him (top even top 150 in WS). At the time he was seen as far more of a superstar.

I mean he was All League from 99 to 03 and he's 14th in VORP (6th among Fs), 15th in WS (6th among Fs), top 30ish in DARKO yearly from 97 to 04 peaking at 6th and bottoming out at 34th while having 4 straight seasons in the 10-20 range, and 33rd in 99 to 03 RAPM (to compare him to a modern player impact wise Devin Booker is 33rd in 5 year RAPM from 2021 to 2025). This is a very strong statistical profile, you just don’t know what you’re looking at.

He was seen as a 2nd team All NBA guy which is what he was statistically. Nowadays he's put under Pau who has a weaker statistical profile.

[dhsilv2]

Downgrade him from WHAT though? From not being in the RealGM top 100 list? Go look at most top 100 player all time lists you'll see Webber in the 90s. How are his numbers downgrading him from his consensus?

His ranking today and his perception at the time (the context) are two different things no? Today yes, things like RAPM have lowered him because the advanced stats aren't that strong for him (top even top 150 in WS). At the time he was seen as far more of a superstar.

I mean he was All League from 99 to 03 and he's 14th in VORP (6th among Fs), 15th in WS (6th among Fs), top 30ish in DARKO yearly from 97 to 04 peaking at 6th and bottoming out at 34th while having 4 straight seasons in the 10-20 range, and 33rd in 99 to 03 RAPM (to compare him to a modern player impact wise Devin Booker is 33rd in 5 year RAPM from 2021 to 2025). This is a very strong statistical profile, you just don’t know what you’re looking at.

He was seen as a 2nd team All NBA guy which is what he was statistically. Nowadays he's put under Pau who has a weaker statistical profile.

From 99-03 he finished 7, 9, 4, 7, and 10th in MVP voting. The stats just don't support that.

Now do I think the Kings would have been better with prime Pau over Webber? Oh hell yes. But that's a whole other discussion that has nothing to do with the perception of Webber at the time as a dark horse MVP type which he shouldn't have been.

[E-Balla]

Gasol made the playoffs 3 years in a row, winning 50, 45, and 49 games. CWebb was on a team that went 44-15 without him. Gasol didn’t have playoff success but he was going up against the 2004 Spurs, 2005 Suns, and 2006 Mavs. Who was the 2nd best player on the Grizzlies?

The Grizzlies went 17-9 without him in 05 lmao. The year they won 45 games it was in large part because Pau was holding them back. You're asking who's the 2nd best player like the Grizzlies ain't have a bunch of elite defenders around him and a top 5 defense in the league those years. Memphis was full of future NBA Champions.

You say Gasol got overrated playing with Kobe, but how many playoff series did Kobe win without Shaq or Gasol?

... Ok this must just be Kobe hate lmao.

Paul Pierce made the ECF in 2002, but that was with a Celtics team that won 49 games. That Celtics team wasn’t beating the Spurs, Suns, or Mavs.

Stats like PER adjust for era, and Boozer has the better PER in his conference finals run. TS+ also adjusts for era and Boozer was at 106 and CWebb was at 104.

The 2002 Kings were 17-5 without CWebb. Like you said initially, he was on a stacked team.

I mean I'm never going to say he wasn't on a stacked team. He was. And they performed like a stacked team. What does this have to do with Pau?

Even if you’re going by MVP voting, which probably overrates him, for his 4 all-star years in Sacramento he finished on average at 7.5. So with him being the 7th-8th best player in the league, he wasn’t really MVP caliber.

And Webber got most of those votes because he was on a stacked team that won a lot. The year he was hurt one of his teammates finished 4th in MVP. That doesn’t mean that Webber or Peja were better than Duncan, Shaq, KG, Dirk, Kidd, Kobe, or Tmac, who were the true MVP caliber players during that time.

I never said he was MVP level lol. He was at least all league level though and Pau wasn't. Both Peja and C. Webb were better than Pau.

1. 17-9 is a winning percentage of 65%. From 2000-2004, the King went 63-20 without CWebb, which is a winning percentage of 76%. Not only is it a bigger sample size, but it’s a better winning percentage. There was some talent on the Grizzlies, but Webber had Bibby outplaying Nash in the playoffs, Peja(4th in MVP voting in 04), Vlade, Christie, and the best bench in the NBA.

2. It’s not Kobe hate to say you shouldn’t hate a on player who didn’t win a stacked West without a 2nd star. How many playoff series did Pau win without Kobe is essentially the same argument as how many playoff series did Kobe win without Shaq. I haven’t said anything hateful about Kobe in this thread, I have him ranked higher than most people on Realgm, and my original argument was that Kobe was a MVP level player from this era and players like Webber and Pau were not.

3. A team having a 76 win % without their star is crazy. Right now the Thunder are the only team with a winning % that good.

4. You’re right, that wasn’t you that said he was MVP level. That was @karmew32, which was the first post I responded to in this thread.

1. Ok? What does this have to do with what I said? Did I say C. Webb had less talented teams than Pau? No? Then what point is being made here? Also the 04 Kings had Brad Miller (an all star in 03 and 04) replacing C. Webb in the lineup. You guys keep using that team to make a point like he wasn't great. For all the RAPM and advanced numbers talk it's no one mentioning Brad Miller was a top tier guy in that time and he wasn't there before 04. In 02 (their peak as a team) they were 42-12 with C. Webb and 19-9 without him. Still great without him, but nowhere near as great as they were with a bonafide all star replacing him in the lineup.

2. I'm not hating on Pau for not winning in a stacked West. Did I mention him losing once? How did Kobe even come into this all I said was Pau was barely all star level pre Kobe and for damn sure wasn't MVP level so he shouldn't be mentioned with C. Webb and Paul Pierce. You decided to bring up Kobe for God knows what reason.

3. Ok? Like what do you want me to say to this lmao. Also you're a liar. They were 39-23 (.629) without C. Webb from 2000 to 2003 and 44-15 without him in 2004 (.746). You deadass just made up a number lmaoooo.

4. You going to acknowledge you made up numbers to make C. Webb look worse than he was?

[E-Balla]

Back on topic since we talking Peja he was such a great player even in 2011 while old and injured he was better than Pau Gasol in a season when Pau somehow was 2nd team all league. Dominated him. It's levels to this.

In 2011 Pau was 2nd in WS, 7th in VORP, 11th in PER, and 10th in BPM, but was dominated by Peja, who played in 33 games and averaged 9, 2, and 1?

Gasol also started the season with a game winning block on LeBron James and was much better defensively than Peja in 2011.

All those empty numbers and Peja still outplayed him in limited PT in the playoffs. Sheesh.

[maverick_41]

World Champion. European Champion. NBA Champion. That's Peja.

And a Greek Cup winner

[cupcakesnake]

Big disagree on Pau. For me it's the opposite: Kobe fans want to give Kobe more credit, so Pau gets diminished.

Pau without Kobe was a 1 time all star, had middling +/- numbers (both raw and advanced, he was a +4.1 on/off with a -0.5 on court rating, his RAPM was -0.2 from 2003 to 2007 which ranked 183rd in the league), had bad WOWY numbers. In 2005, 2007, and 2008 the Grizzlies were 55-109 with Pau (27.5 win pace) and 34-48 without Pau. Pau’s chemistry with Kobe and utility in the triangle completely changed his image as a player.

Pau was bigger than Webber, and had better effort defensively.

In LA? Maybe. In Memphis? Hell no.

Young Pau was a really good rim protector,

**** no. He was one of the worst defensive players in the league in Memphis and in LA at his best he was only average. At best.

and the Lakers defense was never bad with Pau at center until he started losing some mobility in his 30s.

Pau had the worst defensive on/off for players over 1000 minutes on both the 2009 and 2010 Lakers. They weren’t bad with him at C but it was because of everybody else he was extremely limited defensively.

I think Pau was a more versatile and functional passer than Webber, even if Webber made it look cooler. The triangle ran so smoothly whenever Pau got those high-post touches. Pau wasn't a good passer right away though, it wasn't until his later Memphis years, and then it really shone in LA. As scorers? Webber took way more shots and used way more touches to not get much more done. Pau could get you 20 on 10 shots, where Webber would get you 25 but be taking twice as many attempts to do it. I don't see what the argument for Webber is besides volume.

As passers C. Webb is better. Pau is good, but C. Webb is on another level. Pau needed the triangle to be a good passer, C. Webb didn’t need the Princeton.

As scorers Pau had much lower volume, and we’re really stretching things acting like he wasn’t seen as soft back then just like C. Webb. It took Kobe to unlock his offense. Pau had the same flaws as C. Webb without the ability to up his volume unlike C. Webb. Webber was a 20 ppg on 54 TS% guy pre Sac (while being a 55% FT shooter) while scoring 16 ppg on 60 TS% in his only 2 playoff series (shooting 39% from the FT line). When he played peak KG after his injury he did better than Pau did against KG in the 08 Finals. Outside of being spoonfed by Kobe or getting garbage buckets against the Spurs in 04 he’s never looked great as a scorer in the playoffs. He has 20 series in his prime and had a negative rTS% in 8 of those series despite only being a 17 ppg guy. Webber as a 22 ppg guy in the playoffs had a positive rTS% in 5 of 10 series in his prime.

Pau played on very weak Memphis teams, and still made the playoffs in one of the strongest Western Conferences of all-time.

Again those teams were better without him. For example in 05 they went 17-9 without Pau. If they didn’t do that he’d have missed the playoffs. Also those teams were talented.

His best teammates were guys like James Posey, White Chocolate, and Shane Battier, and they managed a 50-win season. They get to the playoffs, and were a knife at a gun fight playing stacked Spurs, Mavs, and Suns teams. I view his time in Memphis as more impressive than not.

2x NBA Champion James Posey, NBA Champion Jason Williams who C. Webb also went to the playoffs with 3 times with him being a top 3 guy on the team along with Vlade including winning a series in 01 when the Kings had the #2 SRS in the league and won 55 games (they had Peja as a star and Christie added by then and J. Will was the 5th best guy), 2 time champion Shane Battier who’s one of the best perimeter defenders of the 2000s that started for 50+ win teams basically his whole career and was a Yao injury from beating Pau and the 08 Lakers in the playoffs as the 3rd best player on the team, 2x NBA Champion Mike Miller who was 6MOTY in Memphis, and you’re forgetting guys like Eddie Jones. Memphis had a #2 defense one of those years, that was an absolutely great squad full of glue guys that went on to be key players on NBA champion squads (including Pau BTW). Also they only won 50 games one of those years and it was when they had Bonzi Wells (another very good glue guy).

Memphis was impressive, not saying they weren’t but it wasn’t only because of Pau those were some well built teams full of players that won everywhere they went.

I'm not calling Pau Gasol the GOAT, but you seem really really negative on him. Everything you wrote is like the class assignment was: explain Pau Gasol in the most negative terms possible, and don't be shy about slipping in details without context to make him look even worse. To me, Pau Gasol is properly rated by his accolades. He wasn't really in the MVP conversation but he had a nice peak as an all-NBA guy who could really move the needle with his size, skill, and versatility.

There's an aggressive amount of spin here. 2x Champion James Posey. NBA Champion Jason Williams! I love Posey, but you're here citing them here as evidence of Pau having enough support in Memphis to do better than he did. Pau did not play with any all-star talent in Memphis. He got whooped in the playoffs by all-time great, championship-level teams. Memphis' lack of playoff success isn't the open-and-shut case on Pau's quality as a player.

It's not super shameful to be a "1x all-star" before the age of 26, in a conference that boasted 3 of the top 5 all-time power forwards, and then also had Webber, Elton Brand, Rasheed Wallace. Had any of those guys been playing in the East, or in a different time period, they would have won more all-stars. Heck, Pau grabbed more all-stars as a washed up Chicago Bull, just because it was easier based on conference and position.

I disagree with you on Pau's defense. I don't think he was elite, but he was a functional mobile rim protector who could hold down the middle, or move his feet enough to play with another center. At some point in LA (we can quibble when), he lost a step and became increasingly a liability in pick & roll, and could also no longer play power forward (which was a problem on an LA team that wanted to develop Bynum, and then brought in Dwight). The on-off doesn't paint the picture you're saying it does. Yes, LA sometimes played better defense without Pau (by a couple points per 100), but a lot of that is simply: Bynum/Odom/Artest (or Ariza) was a good defensive lineup in non-Pau minutes. Bynum and Pau wasn't awesome, but also wasn't bad. If the Lakers were ever bad on D with heavy-minute Pau lineups, I'd be more inclined to think negatively here.

I don't really care about Webber's ability to scale up his usage, since he wasn't good while doing it. Webber had legit shot selection issues which are a negative in his game.

I used to be higher on Webber's passing. Growing up I wanted to throw high post passes like Webber (and Sabonis). Going back and watching old games though, Webber's passing is a LOT of standing still in the high post and waiting for the motion offense to create a passing opportunity. It made for cool touch down assists, but it's flashier than it is impactful. Watching Sacramento, I found Divac so much more dynamic as a passer with his DHO stuff. Webber had more talent coming into the league, but I think Pau's BBIQ ultimately made him more impactful as a playmaker. He passed quicker and through tighter spaces. The triangle requires someone who can make good reads. It absolutely doesn't make a weak passer into a good one. If anything, passing weakness is a big problem in the triangle.

I don't get why people have to pick Kobe or Pau. They were complementary players that won titles together and it's fine to share credit. Kobe haters who want to boost Pau, or Kobe fans who want to poo on Pau... I don't care for it either way.

[E-Balla]

His ranking today and his perception at the time (the context) are two different things no? Today yes, things like RAPM have lowered him because the advanced stats aren't that strong for him (top even top 150 in WS). At the time he was seen as far more of a superstar.

I mean he was All League from 99 to 03 and he's 14th in VORP (6th among Fs), 15th in WS (6th among Fs), top 30ish in DARKO yearly from 97 to 04 peaking at 6th and bottoming out at 34th while having 4 straight seasons in the 10-20 range, and 33rd in 99 to 03 RAPM (to compare him to a modern player impact wise Devin Booker is 33rd in 5 year RAPM from 2021 to 2025). This is a very strong statistical profile, you just don’t know what you’re looking at.

He was seen as a 2nd team All NBA guy which is what he was statistically. Nowadays he's put under Pau who has a weaker statistical profile.

From 99-03 he finished 7, 9, 4, 7, and 10th in MVP voting. The stats just don't support that.

First off MVP isn't a "best player in the league" award. But let me pick a random year there. C. Webb was 6th in VORP in 2000, 8th in WS if you exclude guys that were 2nd on their team in WS, and 9th in MVP voting. Was he overrated? Also stats (especially boxscore derived stats that you seem to love like win shares of all things) aren't perfect. All of these numbers have a margin of error and a confidence interval. If C. Webb is in the ball park (for example if he's 10th in VORP and 7th in MVP voting) the numbers DO support him being there. It's just a lot of awful statistics usage here.

Now do I think the Kings would have been better with prime Pau over Webber? Oh hell yes. But that's a whole other discussion that has nothing to do with the perception of Webber at the time as a dark horse MVP type which he shouldn't have been.

Hilariously none of those same advanced stats you're saying overrate Webber are being used to inform your opinion here. Let me guess it's because Pau has a higher TS%? Can't be VORP/BPM because prime Webber is better. Can't be RAPM because prime Webber is better. Can't be any of the all in one numbers like RAPTOR and DARKO. What is it?

[NZB2323]

Back on topic since we talking Peja he was such a great player even in 2011 while old and injured he was better than Pau Gasol in a season when Pau somehow was 2nd team all league. Dominated him. It's levels to this.

In 2011 Pau was 2nd in WS, 7th in VORP, 11th in PER, and 10th in BPM, but was dominated by Peja, who played in 33 games and averaged 9, 2, and 1?

Gasol also started the season with a game winning block on LeBron James and was much better defensively than Peja in 2011.

All those empty numbers and Peja still outplayed him in limited PT in the playoffs. Sheesh.

Empty numbers? The Lakers won 57 games.

I know Peja was red hot in limited minutes off the bench, but this is like saying that Steve Kerr outplayed Steve Nash in the 2003 playoffs.

[tsherkin]

In 2011 Pau was 2nd in WS, 7th in VORP, 11th in PER, and 10th in BPM, but was dominated by Peja, who played in 33 games and averaged 9, 2, and 1?

Gasol also started the season with a game winning block on LeBron James and was much better defensively than Peja in 2011.

All those empty numbers and Peja still outplayed him in limited PT in the playoffs. Sheesh.

Empty numbers? The Lakers won 57 games.

I know Peja was red hot in limited minutes off the bench, but this is like saying that Steve Kerr outplayed Steve Nash in the 2003 playoffs.

Yeah....

On that note...

Pau posted 12.5 / 9.3 / 4.0 in 35.6 mpg on 42.2% FG and 70.6% FT. He was REALLY rough on offense in that series, which opens some conversation here. Still great as a passer, still decent as a rebounder, but he was just super brutal about hitting shots.

Peja matched Pau's scoring average while shooting over 51% from the field and over 52% from 3. Wasn't the same kind of rebounder or playmaker, or defensive presence, but the scoring was something to discuss. More in games 3 and 4, of course. He had that nearly perfect performance in Game 4, right? 7/7 FG overall, 6/6 from 3, 1/2 at the line, 3 steals, etc.

So while I might not agree, I can at least see where E-Balla is coming from.

[dhsilv2]

I mean he was All League from 99 to 03 and he's 14th in VORP (6th among Fs), 15th in WS (6th among Fs), top 30ish in DARKO yearly from 97 to 04 peaking at 6th and bottoming out at 34th while having 4 straight seasons in the 10-20 range, and 33rd in 99 to 03 RAPM (to compare him to a modern player impact wise Devin Booker is 33rd in 5 year RAPM from 2021 to 2025). This is a very strong statistical profile, you just don’t know what you’re looking at.

He was seen as a 2nd team All NBA guy which is what he was statistically. Nowadays he's put under Pau who has a weaker statistical profile.

From 99-03 he finished 7, 9, 4, 7, and 10th in MVP voting. The stats just don't support that.

First off MVP isn't a "best player in the league" award. But let me pick a random year there. C. Webb was 6th in VORP in 2000, 8th in WS if you exclude guys that were 2nd on their team in WS, and 9th in MVP voting. Was he overrated? Also stats (especially boxscore derived stats that you seem to love like win shares of all things) aren't perfect. All of these numbers have a margin of error and a confidence interval. If C. Webb is in the ball park (for example if he's 10th in VORP and 7th in MVP voting) the numbers DO support him being there. It's just a lot of awful statistics usage here.

Now do I think the Kings would have been better with prime Pau over Webber? Oh hell yes. But that's a whole other discussion that has nothing to do with the perception of Webber at the time as a dark horse MVP type which he shouldn't have been.

Hilariously none of those same advanced stats you're saying overrate Webber are being used to inform your opinion here. Let me guess it's because Pau has a higher TS%? Can't be VORP/BPM because prime Webber is better. Can't be RAPM because prime Webber is better. Can't be any of the all in one numbers like RAPTOR and DARKO. What is it?

Your argument is that the advanced stats are more favorable. If we're "in the ball park" then they aren't. What you just argued supports the counter to your original statement.

[E-Balla]

I'm not calling Pau Gasol the GOAT, but you seem really really negative on him. Everything you wrote is like the class assignment was: explain Pau Gasol in the most negative terms possible, and don't be shy about slipping in details without context to make him look even worse. To me, Pau Gasol is properly rated by his accolades. He wasn't really in the MVP conversation but he had a nice peak as an all-NBA guy who could really move the needle with his size, skill, and versatility.

I included context. I described who and what Pau was pre Kobe. He had a nice peak as a guy that made All NBA teams on the back of Kobe Bean Bryant. Nothing more nothing less.

There's an aggressive amount of spin here. 2x Champion James Posey. NBA Champion Jason Williams! I love Posey, but you're here citing them here as evidence of Pau having enough support in Memphis to do better than he did. Pau did not play with any all-star talent in Memphis. He got whooped in the playoffs by all-time great, championship-level teams. Memphis' lack of playoff success isn't the open-and-shut case on Pau's quality as a player.

Well yes because guys don't make All Star games due to their defense. I never once brought up Pau's lack of playoff success in Memphis, so why mention that? I just pointed out he was barely an all star (a fact) who's team was just as good when he sat as when he played (a fact). He's now being retroactively put in Paul Pierce/C. Webb convos because of how successful he was with Kobe feeding him (a fact).

It's not super shameful to be a "1x all-star" before the age of 26, in a conference that boasted 3 of the top 5 all-time power forwards, and then also had Webber, Elton Brand, Rasheed Wallace. Had any of those guys been playing in the East, or in a different time period, they would have won more all-stars. Heck, Pau grabbed more all-stars as a washed up Chicago Bull, just because it was easier based on conference and position.

Who said it's shameful? I'm just showing Pau isn't as good as C. Webb. Not by a long shot. He was a borderline top 10 PF put into top 5 convos because of Kobe.

I disagree with you on Pau's defense. I don't think he was elite, but he was a functional mobile rim protector who could hold down the middle, or move his feet enough to play with another center. At some point in LA (we can quibble when), he lost a step and became increasingly a liability in pick & roll, and could also no longer play power forward (which was a problem on an LA team that wanted to develop Bynum, and then brought in Dwight). The on-off doesn't paint the picture you're saying it does. Yes, LA sometimes played better defense without Pau (by a couple points per 100), but a lot of that is simply: Bynum/Odom/Artest (or Ariza) was a good defensive lineup in non-Pau minutes. Bynum and Pau wasn't awesome, but also wasn't bad. If the Lakers were ever bad on D with heavy-minute Pau lineups, I'd be more inclined to think negatively here.

If the +/- didn't paint that picture you'd see it reflected somewhere else. Anywhere else even. Instead what we see from RAPM is numbers showing Pau, at his best, was mid on defense. He was a good enough rim protector to be on the floor for elite defenses as long as he was surrounded by great defenders like in Memphis and LA.

I don't really care about Webber's ability to scale up his usage, since he wasn't good while doing it. Webber had legit shot selection issues which are a negative in his game.

He wasn't good while doing it, but was good enough to lead decent playoff offenses and come a robbery away from a ring. His volume scoring in the playoffs was just as good (bad) as KG.

I used to be higher on Webber's passing. Growing up I wanted to throw high post passes like Webber (and Sabonis). Going back and watching old games though, Webber's passing is a LOT of standing still in the high post and waiting for the motion offense to create a passing opportunity. It made for cool touch down assists, but it's flashier than it is impactful.

Webber was a passer pre Princeton. And a good one. Outside of Doug Christie and Bobby Jackson and Bibby (the Gs) everyone was way more efficient with Webber out there.

Watching Sacramento, I found Divac so much more dynamic as a passer with his DHO stuff. Webber had more talent coming into the league, but I think Pau's BBIQ ultimately made him more impactful as a playmaker. He passed quicker and through tighter spaces. The triangle requires someone who can make good reads. It absolutely doesn't make a weak passer into a good one. If anything, passing weakness is a big problem in the triangle.

I don't get why people have to pick Kobe or Pau. They were complementary players that won titles together and it's fine to share credit. Kobe haters who want to boost Pau, or Kobe fans who want to poo on Pau... I don't care for it either way.

Vlade is a better passer than C. Webb and I'm not saying Pau isn't a good passer. I'm saying he's not C. Webb.

As far as the Kobe/Pau thing goes I only mention it because Kobe hate is the only reason Pau is in these convos. If I'm making the best PF primes since 2000 Pau might not be in my top 20, and for sure won't be in my top 15, and the only reason that sounds crazy/irrational is Kobe. If Pau kept being a 18 PPG on 57 TS% with bad/mediocre defense guy like he was before Kobe we aren't having these discussions. I think that's fair to acknowledge, especially when Pau without Kobe on the floor in LA was not performing well (-3.2 offense and a -0.5 net rating with Pau and without Kobe vs a -2.4 without both of them).

[FarBeyondDriven]

He was also All-NBA that year. Peja could have easily made 4 or 5 All-Star appearances in the modern NBA. He was born 15 years too early.

one of the biggest travesties in NBA history was that rigged 02 series for the Lakers that prevented a Kings championship. The Kings were the better team (best record in the league) and played better in that series and should have won. Anyone that can watch that and still claim the league isn't rigged is either a Lakers fan or trolling.

[dhsilv2]

All those empty numbers and Peja still outplayed him in limited PT in the playoffs. Sheesh.

Empty numbers? The Lakers won 57 games.

I know Peja was red hot in limited minutes off the bench, but this is like saying that Steve Kerr outplayed Steve Nash in the 2003 playoffs.

Yeah....

On that note...

Pau posted 12.5 / 9.3 / 4.0 in 35.6 mpg on 42.2% FG and 70.6% FT. He was REALLY rough on offense in that series, which opens some conversation here. Still great as a passer, still decent as a rebounder, but he was just super brutal about hitting shots.

Peja matched Pau's scoring average while shooting over 51% from the field and over 52% from 3. Wasn't the same kind of rebounder or playmaker, or defensive presence, but the scoring was something to discuss. More in games 3 and 4, of course. He had that nearly perfect performance in Game 4, right? 7/7 FG overall, 6/6 from 3, 1/2 at the line, 3 steals, etc.

So while I might not agree, I can at least see where E-Balla is coming from.

I'm sorry but when you reduce a full season and 2 rounds of the playoffs to essentially 2 key playoff games. That's just flat out dishonest debating at it's most fundamental level.

[tsherkin]

I'm sorry but when you reduce a full season and 2 rounds of the playoffs to essentially 2 key playoff games. That's just flat out dishonest debating at it's most fundamental level.

He was talking about the series against LA very specifically...

[E-Balla]

From 99-03 he finished 7, 9, 4, 7, and 10th in MVP voting. The stats just don't support that.

First off MVP isn't a "best player in the league" award. But let me pick a random year there. C. Webb was 6th in VORP in 2000, 8th in WS if you exclude guys that were 2nd on their team in WS, and 9th in MVP voting. Was he overrated? Also stats (especially boxscore derived stats that you seem to love like win shares of all things) aren't perfect. All of these numbers have a margin of error and a confidence interval. If C. Webb is in the ball park (for example if he's 10th in VORP and 7th in MVP voting) the numbers DO support him being there. It's just a lot of awful statistics usage here.

Now do I think the Kings would have been better with prime Pau over Webber? Oh hell yes. But that's a whole other discussion that has nothing to do with the perception of Webber at the time as a dark horse MVP type which he shouldn't have been.

Hilariously none of those same advanced stats you're saying overrate Webber are being used to inform your opinion here. Let me guess it's because Pau has a higher TS%? Can't be VORP/BPM because prime Webber is better. Can't be RAPM because prime Webber is better. Can't be any of the all in one numbers like RAPTOR and DARKO. What is it?

Your argument is that the advanced stats are more favorable. If we're "in the ball park" then they aren't. What you just argued supports the counter to your original statement.

If he got a worthy of top 75 discussion resume during his career, and people don't give him that respect (he wasn't in the realgm top 100), and his stats show his resume is deserved, then yes his stats support the idea that he deserves more respect. Your lack of understanding of how stats work isn't my problem. You literally said a 44.7 career VORP is way over a 42.1 and 91 WS is way over 85. You're using numbers you don't understand here.