Hypothetical: Kawhi trade canceled, what does TOR do?

[clippertown]

If Kawhi knowingly took more money and circumvented the cap, it seems like he will be severely suspended. Obviously the Clippers will get a serious fine and other penalties like losing picks, etc.

It doesn’t seem like Toronto should be punished, so maybe Silver goes to them for their preferred remedy since they traded for an asset they are not getting in its full capacity. If it’s a huge suspension, Toronto probably gets the option to rescind the trade. Regardless of how awkward it is getting their traded players back, I’d expect them to rescind and start over.

I agree with you. If Kawhi faces major consequences - voiding of contract or year-long ban - Toronto would have a strong argument to at least claw back their picks. So why not just sign the deal? But, if Toronto wants out, just ask and it is done. Maybe they can sign Kawhi after his suspension.

All the current damage being done is solely on the Raptors. They knew about Aspiration and they approached the Clippers. What are they thinking?

[Mr Swagtastic]

How much sense to Trey Murphy make for Toronto? I wouldn't go crazy with a Bane type of deal but I think he fits really well in Toronto

Hes not worth multiple picks more than ingram

What's your plan b deal? I know you said run it back but honestly Gradey Dick needs a change of scenery and Ingram is far to fragile to go forward as your go to scorer

[Godaddycurse]

How much sense to Trey Murphy make for Toronto? I wouldn't go crazy with a Bane type of deal but I think he fits really well in Toronto

Hes not worth multiple picks more than ingram

What's your plan b deal? I know you said run it back but honestly Gradey Dick needs a change of scenery and Ingram is far to fragile to go forward as your go to scorer

Wait for next available star and run it back in mean time. Murphy isnt going to lift us to the next level

[Skybox]

Ingram doesn’t get TOR Bane or Murphy, maybe not even MPJ, so not “easy” at all.

If Kawhi is suspended 30 games or less, MAYBE LAC concedes a pick, but Kawhi likes to have his siestas anyway, so it’s not a deal-breaker, imo. IF LAC holds firm, might even go through as is…maybe LAC adds a srp for a visible, if meaningless, concession.

I don’t see TOR walking away unless it’s an explosive penalty (which I don’t expect from Silver)

(Would be a refreshing change though…They WERE cheating, knowingly)

[nykballa2k4]

Let's say the Kawhi trade gets canceled. What does Toronto do?

Reminder a/b the details of the trade:

Gradey Dick
Brandon Ingram
First-round picks in 2031 and 2033
Second-round picks in 2030 and 2033
First-round pick swap in 2027

for

Kawhi Leonard

IMO pivot towards Durant.

[ConSarnit]

Just run it back. Getting Kawhi is the closest the Raptors can get to a tier 1 star. Swapping Ingram out for a Bane/Murphy type doesn’t move the needle. The price for those guys is probably the same price they paid for Kawhi but you don’t get the upside.

Unless the Raptors can find a deal that makes them an ECF contender (at the very least) they should just stand pat and see what happens with internal improvement. Given the strength of the East it doesn’t make sense to throw in draft picks for a trade that probably keeps them as a first round underdog.

[davidv2001]

Let's say the Kawhi trade gets canceled. What does Toronto do?

Reminder a/b the details of the trade:

Gradey Dick
Brandon Ingram
First-round picks in 2031 and 2033
Second-round picks in 2030 and 2033
First-round pick swap in 2027

for

Kawhi Leonard

IMO pivot towards Durant.

The Rockets aren’t trading Durant right now and especially not for Brandon Ingram and picks. Also, I highly doubt Kevin Durant wants to leave Houston for Toronto.

The Raptors better find a different player to pivot towards.

[nykballa2k4]

Let's say the Kawhi trade gets canceled. What does Toronto do?

Reminder a/b the details of the trade:

Gradey Dick
Brandon Ingram
First-round picks in 2031 and 2033
Second-round picks in 2030 and 2033
First-round pick swap in 2027

for

Kawhi Leonard

IMO pivot towards Durant.

The Rockets aren’t trading Durant right now and especially not for Brandon Ingram and picks. Also, I highly doubt Kevin Durant wants to leave Houston for Toronto.

The Raptors better find a different player to pivot towards.

I would not be so definitive if I were you. Rockets cannot be looking at themselves after last years playoffs thinking "we are right there with Spurs and Thunder" meanwhile Durant is getting no younger. Ingram + assets is a perfect pivot for them as well out of their current situation.

[Texas Chuck]

Agree Kawhi is a one shot. Healthy Kawhi for the playoffs is a game changer in a way nobody else realistically available is. I wouldn't pivot to a lessor player. Now if you could shift BI or Barrett in a way that saves money and/or sets up something longer term that makes sense that doesn't cost much, sure.

But if this blows up, then don't panic overpay for something that doesn't make you a contender.

[eminence]

Unless Ingram makes a huge deal about it I'd just move on.

If he does they can find some lateral move without including major draft assets, but there's no all-in type move on the level of Kawhi, so don't try.

[davidv2001]

IMO pivot towards Durant.

The Rockets aren’t trading Durant right now and especially not for Brandon Ingram and picks. Also, I highly doubt Kevin Durant wants to leave Houston for Toronto.

The Raptors better find a different player to pivot towards.

I would not be so definitive if I were you. Rockets cannot be looking at themselves after last years playoffs thinking "we are right there with Spurs and Thunder" meanwhile Durant is getting no younger. Ingram + assets is a perfect pivot for them as well out of their current situation.

I’m a Rockets’ fan who lives in Houston. I’m pretty sure I have a good pulse on the state of the team. The Rockets have signed two veteran guards this offseason in Marcus Smart and Bogdan Bogdanovic. They drafted one of the most NBA ready guards in Bruce Thornton. Everything they have done indicates they’re running it back with VanVleet and Adams and seeing where that takes them. If the team wanted Durant gone after the burner incident, the trade would have happened before the 2026 NBA Draft and the start of free agency. Reed Sheppard would also not be working out with Durant in California.

That said, if another team blew them away with a Kevin Durant offer, they would consider it. Trading him for Brandon Ingram making over $40 million annually and two first-round picks is not that offer. Furthermore, Kevin Durant isn’t interested in playing for the Raptors, so this idea is dead from the start.

Finally, fans can say teams like the Rockets should accept they are tiers below the Spurs and Thunder and move Durant for younger pieces and assets, but that is not how NBA front offices with their jobs on the line think. The Rockets have won more than 50 games in each of the last two regular seasons, and Ime Udoka has to win a playoff series this year, or he could be fired. Rafael Stone could also lose his job if the Rockets either miss the playoffs or get eliminated in the first round again. Neither one has interest in making the NBA team worse for future picks.

[nykballa2k4]

The Rockets aren’t trading Durant right now and especially not for Brandon Ingram and picks. Also, I highly doubt Kevin Durant wants to leave Houston for Toronto.

The Raptors better find a different player to pivot towards.

I would not be so definitive if I were you. Rockets cannot be looking at themselves after last years playoffs thinking "we are right there with Spurs and Thunder" meanwhile Durant is getting no younger. Ingram + assets is a perfect pivot for them as well out of their current situation.

I’m a Rockets’ fan who lives in Houston. I’m pretty sure I have a good pulse on the state of the team. The Rockets have signed two veteran guards this offseason in Marcus Smart and Bogdan Bogdanovic. They drafted one of the most NBA ready guards in Bruce Thornton. Everything they have done indicates they’re running it back with VanVleet and Adams and seeing where that takes them. If the team wanted Durant gone after the burner incident, the trade would have happened before the 2026 NBA Draft and the start of free agency. Reed Sheppard would also not be working out with Durant in California.

That said, if another team blew them away with a Kevin Durant offer, they would consider it. Trading him for Brandon Ingram making over $40 million annually and two first-round picks is not that offer. Furthermore, Kevin Durant isn’t interested in playing for the Raptors, so this idea is dead from the start.

Finally, fans can say teams like the Rockets should accept they are tiers below the Spurs and Thunder and move Durant for younger pieces and assets, but that is not how NBA front offices with their jobs on the line think. The Rockets have won more than 50 games in each of the last two regular seasons, and Ime Udoka has to win a playoff series this year, or he could be fired. Rafael Stone could also lose his job if the Rockets either miss the playoffs or get eliminated in the first round again. Neither one has interest in making the NBA team worse for future picks.

You are asking the wrong question though.

how many games is the difference between Ingram and Durant? Is the team a 50 win team with KD, but with Ingram they are a 40 win? If it's the difference between a 50 win team and a 48 win team on paper, then you look at longevity, and you consider what Ingram thinks he is worth, and it aligns with your data crunchers... then you make the move.

there are variables you and I have no way of knowing (unless you are one of the people on the board who is a legit insider).

I 100% believe that Rockets are seeking to be in the top-4 every year.
I think the disconnect in this conversation is how much of a net positive is KD at this point and is there a better fit out there.

I agree that KD > Ingram, but if you are getting, say Ingram and 2 unprotected FRP... that's pretty enticing. Obviously Rockets need a true lead guard. the hope is that between FVV, Sheppard, and Smart that there is enough I guess.. but FVV+Adams contracts + picks could translate into a true lead guard should one emerge on the trade front.

[LarsV8]

I would not be so definitive if I were you. Rockets cannot be looking at themselves after last years playoffs thinking "we are right there with Spurs and Thunder" meanwhile Durant is getting no younger. Ingram + assets is a perfect pivot for them as well out of their current situation.

The only take aways from last years playoffs was lets try to not have half our team injured.

[davidv2001]

I would not be so definitive if I were you. Rockets cannot be looking at themselves after last years playoffs thinking "we are right there with Spurs and Thunder" meanwhile Durant is getting no younger. Ingram + assets is a perfect pivot for them as well out of their current situation.

I’m a Rockets’ fan who lives in Houston. I’m pretty sure I have a good pulse on the state of the team. The Rockets have signed two veteran guards this offseason in Marcus Smart and Bogdan Bogdanovic. They drafted one of the most NBA ready guards in Bruce Thornton. Everything they have done indicates they’re running it back with VanVleet and Adams and seeing where that takes them. If the team wanted Durant gone after the burner incident, the trade would have happened before the 2026 NBA Draft and the start of free agency. Reed Sheppard would also not be working out with Durant in California.

That said, if another team blew them away with a Kevin Durant offer, they would consider it. Trading him for Brandon Ingram making over $40 million annually and two first-round picks is not that offer. Furthermore, Kevin Durant isn’t interested in playing for the Raptors, so this idea is dead from the start.

Finally, fans can say teams like the Rockets should accept they are tiers below the Spurs and Thunder and move Durant for younger pieces and assets, but that is not how NBA front offices with their jobs on the line think. The Rockets have won more than 50 games in each of the last two regular seasons, and Ime Udoka has to win a playoff series this year, or he could be fired. Rafael Stone could also lose his job if the Rockets either miss the playoffs or get eliminated in the first round again. Neither one has interest in making the NBA team worse for future picks.

You are asking the wrong question though.

how many games is the difference between Ingram and Durant? Is the team a 50 win team with KD, but with Ingram they are a 40 win? If it's the difference between a 50 win team and a 48 win team on paper, then you look at longevity, and you consider what Ingram thinks he is worth, and it aligns with your data crunchers... then you make the move.

there are variables you and I have no way of knowing (unless you are one of the people on the board who is a legit insider).

I 100% believe that Rockets are seeking to be in the top-4 every year.
I think the disconnect in this conversation is how much of a net positive is KD at this point and is there a better fit out there.

I agree that KD > Ingram, but if you are getting, say Ingram and 2 unprotected FRP... that's pretty enticing. Obviously Rockets need a true lead guard. the hope is that between FVV, Sheppard, and Smart that there is enough I guess.. but FVV+Adams contracts + picks could translate into a true lead guard should one emerge on the trade front.

I’m not asking the wrong question. Brandon Ingram is substantially worse than Kevin Durant, and he makes $40M or more the next two seasons. The Rockets are not looking to blow it up right now nor does their front office think they can’t contend in the Western Conference this season. Also, Udoka and Stone need the team to advance past round one in the playoffs to keep their jobs. The team has added win now players in free agency and a plug and play guard in the draft. The last thing they want to do is trade their best player for an inferior one and future picks. Plus, Kevin Durant isn’t signing off on a trade to Toronto.

If the team isn’t performing to expectations by the trade deadline, the Rockets may consider moving Kevin Durant provided he’s open to the idea. But, not right now.

The Rockets also own both Brooklyn and Phoenix’s 2027 picks and other future first-round picks if they want to make a move for a lead guard. They don’t need these Raptors’ picks to do so.

[nykballa2k4]

I’m a Rockets’ fan who lives in Houston. I’m pretty sure I have a good pulse on the state of the team. The Rockets have signed two veteran guards this offseason in Marcus Smart and Bogdan Bogdanovic. They drafted one of the most NBA ready guards in Bruce Thornton. Everything they have done indicates they’re running it back with VanVleet and Adams and seeing where that takes them. If the team wanted Durant gone after the burner incident, the trade would have happened before the 2026 NBA Draft and the start of free agency. Reed Sheppard would also not be working out with Durant in California.

That said, if another team blew them away with a Kevin Durant offer, they would consider it. Trading him for Brandon Ingram making over $40 million annually and two first-round picks is not that offer. Furthermore, Kevin Durant isn’t interested in playing for the Raptors, so this idea is dead from the start.

Finally, fans can say teams like the Rockets should accept they are tiers below the Spurs and Thunder and move Durant for younger pieces and assets, but that is not how NBA front offices with their jobs on the line think. The Rockets have won more than 50 games in each of the last two regular seasons, and Ime Udoka has to win a playoff series this year, or he could be fired. Rafael Stone could also lose his job if the Rockets either miss the playoffs or get eliminated in the first round again. Neither one has interest in making the NBA team worse for future picks.

You are asking the wrong question though.

how many games is the difference between Ingram and Durant? Is the team a 50 win team with KD, but with Ingram they are a 40 win? If it's the difference between a 50 win team and a 48 win team on paper, then you look at longevity, and you consider what Ingram thinks he is worth, and it aligns with your data crunchers... then you make the move.

there are variables you and I have no way of knowing (unless you are one of the people on the board who is a legit insider).

I 100% believe that Rockets are seeking to be in the top-4 every year.
I think the disconnect in this conversation is how much of a net positive is KD at this point and is there a better fit out there.

I agree that KD > Ingram, but if you are getting, say Ingram and 2 unprotected FRP... that's pretty enticing. Obviously Rockets need a true lead guard. the hope is that between FVV, Sheppard, and Smart that there is enough I guess.. but FVV+Adams contracts + picks could translate into a true lead guard should one emerge on the trade front.

I’m not the one asking the wrong question. Brandon Ingram is substantially worse than Kevin Durant, and he makes $40M or more the next two seasons. The Rockets are not looking to blow it up right now nor does their front office think they can’t contend in the Western Conference this season. Also, Udoka and Stone need the team to advance past round one in the playoffs to keep their jobs. The team has added win now players in free agency and a plug and play guard in the draft. The last thing they want to do is trade their best player for an inferior one and future picks. Plus, Kevin Durant isn’t signing off on a trade to Toronto.

If the team isn’t performing to expectations by the trade deadline, the Rockets may consider moving Kevin Durant provided he’s open to the idea. But, not right now.

The Rockets also own both Brooklyn and Phoenix’s 2027 picks and other future first-round picks if they want to make a move for a lead guard. They don’t need these Raptors’ picks to do so.

So you are kinds both-sidsing it right now, but that's fine. You are less high on Ingram than I am and as an extension to that less high on the Rockets as a team being that you seem to believe KD is the engine there.

My focus is on Sengun as he is their young all-star. What helps make the team build around him better. If that means trade KD, then so be it.

[davidv2001]

You are asking the wrong question though.

how many games is the difference between Ingram and Durant? Is the team a 50 win team with KD, but with Ingram they are a 40 win? If it's the difference between a 50 win team and a 48 win team on paper, then you look at longevity, and you consider what Ingram thinks he is worth, and it aligns with your data crunchers... then you make the move.

there are variables you and I have no way of knowing (unless you are one of the people on the board who is a legit insider).

I 100% believe that Rockets are seeking to be in the top-4 every year.
I think the disconnect in this conversation is how much of a net positive is KD at this point and is there a better fit out there.

I agree that KD > Ingram, but if you are getting, say Ingram and 2 unprotected FRP... that's pretty enticing. Obviously Rockets need a true lead guard. the hope is that between FVV, Sheppard, and Smart that there is enough I guess.. but FVV+Adams contracts + picks could translate into a true lead guard should one emerge on the trade front.

I’m not the one asking the wrong question. Brandon Ingram is substantially worse than Kevin Durant, and he makes $40M or more the next two seasons. The Rockets are not looking to blow it up right now nor does their front office think they can’t contend in the Western Conference this season. Also, Udoka and Stone need the team to advance past round one in the playoffs to keep their jobs. The team has added win now players in free agency and a plug and play guard in the draft. The last thing they want to do is trade their best player for an inferior one and future picks. Plus, Kevin Durant isn’t signing off on a trade to Toronto.

If the team isn’t performing to expectations by the trade deadline, the Rockets may consider moving Kevin Durant provided he’s open to the idea. But, not right now.

The Rockets also own both Brooklyn and Phoenix’s 2027 picks and other future first-round picks if they want to make a move for a lead guard. They don’t need these Raptors’ picks to do so.

So you are kinds both-sidsing it right now, but that's fine. You are less high on Ingram than I am and as an extension to that less high on the Rockets as a team being that you seem to believe KD is the engine there.

My focus is on Sengun as he is their young all-star. What helps make the team build around him better. If that means trade KD, then so be it.

Kevin Durant isn’t an offensive engine because he lacks the necessary playmaking skills. However, he’s easily the Rockets best offensive player and will look better with Fred VanVleet in the starting lineup next to him. That’s not to say VanVleet is amazing, but he’s a starting-caliber NBA point guard, and the Rockets did not have one at any point last season.

The Rockets would have been lucky to make the play in without Durant last season, and that’s with him frequently receiving the ball way past the three-point line and defenders crowding his air space. If the Rockets had Ingram instead of Durant last season, they would have been a bottom tier play in team, at best.

Also, I’m not prioritizing fits next to Alperen Sengun. Sengun is entering his sixth season and doesn’t provide rim protection nor has he developed a reliable perimeter shot. Either he or Amen Thompson (entering his fourth season) develop a reliable three-point shot this year, or the Rockets should strongly consider trading one of them because you cannot have two non shooters sharing the court and produce a good offense. They aren’t rookies or second-year players anymore.

[HartfordWhalers]

If I'm Toronto, I'm looking into my ability to opt out of it now.

[Mr Swagtastic]

Sorry to bump a older thread but Toronto should probably look top pivot. Kawhi and The Clippers might face a massive fine well Balmer it's going to get a record fine and potential draft pick forfeiture.

Toronto needs a go to scorer maybe Durant. I've seen MPJ been mentioned but I can't see him in Toronto imagine if Toronto goes from this Kawhi Leonard situation then to Michael Porter Jr with the history of his brother in Toronto. They might as well embrace the old Oakland Raiders or Portland Jail Blazers image.

Maybe they go Sabonis and LaVine for RJ and Poeltl with draft comp. LaVine gives you a stop gap offensive minded SG who works with Barnes, IQ and Ingram. Sabonis gives you rebounding and a low post scorer who both CMB and Barnes can mask his defense.

Honestly I don't see a lot of rumored names Toronto can trade for right now that would be a Difference Maker over say a Boston, Cleveland, New York or Philadelphia they way Kawhi potentially is.

Trey Murphy on paper makes sense but will probably cost more than Toronto should be willing to give

[flranger]

If I were the Raptors, I'd just go ahead and make the deal. Get off bad salary for Ingram and Dick. Hope to pull a little draft capital back.

If KL2 gets suspended or contract voided, win - win. Who really cares.

[mademan]

If I were the Raptors, I'd just go ahead and make the deal. Get off bad salary for Ingram and Dick. Hope to pull a little draft capital back.

If KL2 gets suspended or contract voided, win - win. Who really cares.

2 1st round picks and a swap for nothing doesnt seem like a win.