How does the Duren Contract Saga end?

[BadMofoPimp]

The BYC doesn't just make it hard to get a good return.

It makes it very difficult to execute a trade at all.

I do not care who would come back. I would have loved to give him to the Lakers for that package for example.

Which would have required Duren to accept the smaller contract the Lakers gave Kessler. No indication he was willing to do that or that the Lakers were willing to offer him more. Just an unconfirmed comment from the Lakers that he was a max player- which was immediately followed by them signing a completely different player.

The Lakers wanted additional space to further supplement their roster around Luka. There's no reason to believe they were willing to entertain giving Duren what his contract demands were at the time (which likely would have entailed the maximum the Lakers could offer, which would have prevented them from adding the other players they did).

The BYC means if we make a trade with ANY team that doesn't have cap space to absorb Duren (which by that point was everyone but the Lakers), he counts as only half of the salary for the purposes of salary matching for us (IE we can only take back slightly more than half of whatever he signed for), but would still count for the full salary to the team receiving him. In other words, they have to send out something that matches Duren's full salary, but we can't receive it.

This makes trades very hard to do. It does more than restrict "who can come back". It makes the math of such a move very difficult to manage.

Can there be a multi-trade deal where a team can send out salary equal to what Duren's new contract with half going to a 3rd team?

[DetroitSho]

I do not care who would come back. I would have loved to give him to the Lakers for that package for example.

Which would have required Duren to accept the smaller contract the Lakers gave Kessler. No indication he was willing to do that or that the Lakers were willing to offer him more. Just an unconfirmed comment from the Lakers that he was a max player- which was immediately followed by them signing a completely different player.

The Lakers wanted additional space to further supplement their roster around Luka. There's no reason to believe they were willing to entertain giving Duren what his contract demands were at the time (which likely would have entailed the maximum the Lakers could offer, which would have prevented them from adding the other players they did).

The BYC means if we make a trade with ANY team that doesn't have cap space to absorb Duren (which by that point was everyone but the Lakers), he counts as only half of the salary for the purposes of salary matching for us (IE we can only take back slightly more than half of whatever he signed for), but would still count for the full salary to the team receiving him. In other words, they have to send out something that matches Duren's full salary, but we can't receive it.

This makes trades very hard to do. It does more than restrict "who can come back". It makes the math of such a move very difficult to manage.

Can there be a multi-trade deal where a team can send out salary equal to what Duren's new contract with half going to a 3rd team?

Yes but that would like require that 3rd team to have capspace to be able to absorb a player(s) outright. And not only that, they would need to have enough compensation for us and that team absorbing a player, if such a team even exists.

Simply put, those still talking about doing a sign and trade in September are showing they don't know much about the salary cap rules

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[Phenomenonsense]

The BYC doesn't just make it hard to get a good return.

It makes it very difficult to execute a trade at all.

I do not care who would come back. I would have loved to give him to the Lakers for that package for example.

Which would have required Duren to accept the smaller contract the Lakers gave Kessler. No indication he was willing to do that or that the Lakers were willing to offer him more. Just an unconfirmed comment from the Lakers that he was a max player- which was immediately followed by them signing a completely different player.

The Lakers wanted additional space to further supplement their roster around Luka. There's no reason to believe they were willing to entertain giving Duren what his contract demands were at the time (which likely would have entailed the maximum the Lakers could offer, which would have prevented them from adding the other players they did).

The BYC means if we make a trade with ANY team that doesn't have cap space to absorb Duren (which by that point was everyone but the Lakers), he counts as only half of the salary for the purposes of salary matching for us (IE we can only take back slightly more than half of whatever he signed for), but would still count for the full salary to the team receiving him. In other words, they have to send out something that matches Duren's full salary, but we can't receive it.

This makes trades very hard to do. It does more than restrict "who can come back". It makes the math of such a move very difficult to manage.

Sure, we can pretend that the reports that detroit had no interest in a Sign and trade and would match any offer had no impact on the lakers decision points if it helps your point my dude. No problem. And I am aware of the BYC, which is convenient to discredit the possibility of operating as a team with cap space that could absorb a contract disparity. Arguing under the assumption that I want a sign and trade now is asinine. I said those with foresight would have done a sign and trade. The key being foresight. As in, prior to now, where it is more than obvious that I was correct.

[Invictus88]

I do not care who would come back. I would have loved to give him to the Lakers for that package for example.

Which would have required Duren to accept the smaller contract the Lakers gave Kessler. No indication he was willing to do that or that the Lakers were willing to offer him more. Just an unconfirmed comment from the Lakers that he was a max player- which was immediately followed by them signing a completely different player.

The Lakers wanted additional space to further supplement their roster around Luka. There's no reason to believe they were willing to entertain giving Duren what his contract demands were at the time (which likely would have entailed the maximum the Lakers could offer, which would have prevented them from adding the other players they did).

The BYC means if we make a trade with ANY team that doesn't have cap space to absorb Duren (which by that point was everyone but the Lakers), he counts as only half of the salary for the purposes of salary matching for us (IE we can only take back slightly more than half of whatever he signed for), but would still count for the full salary to the team receiving him. In other words, they have to send out something that matches Duren's full salary, but we can't receive it.

This makes trades very hard to do. It does more than restrict "who can come back". It makes the math of such a move very difficult to manage.

Sure, we can pretend that the reports that detroit had no interest in a Sign and trade and would match any offer had no impact on the lakers decision points if it helps your point my dude. No problem. And I am aware of the BYC, which is convenient to discredit the possibility of operating as a team with cap space that could absorb a contract disparity. Arguing under the assumption that I want a sign and trade now is asinine. I said those with foresight would have done a sign and trade. The key being foresight. As in, prior to now, where it is more than obvious that I was correct.

Except that a team would normally only resort to a S&T if they felt they would be otherwise unsuccessful in retaining him or didn't want to. That doesn't describe the Pistons at all. They want to sign Duren and believe they will be successful at doing so.

Why would you ever anticipate or have 'foresight' that your endeavor to extend someone at what is widely agreed upon as fair terms would ultimately fail when you hold all of the leverage?

If Duren takes the QO it will universally be viewed as a risky and stupid move if a 5/187 deal is on the table from the Pistons. Because the QO is 1/9.6 million and the biggest contract from another team is 4/177. So he'd literally be risking 177 million of guaranteed money with no financial upside.

A sign & trade never made sense for the Pistons strategically at any point.

[VicVinegar]

When do team activities start? Maybe this is just the typical "I don't want to show up for training camp" that NFL players do with holdouts.

[Irate]

When do team activities start? Maybe this is just the typical "I don't want to show up for training camp" that NFL players do with holdouts.

Media day is the 28th. First day of camp is the 29th

First preseason game is October 5th. First regular season game is October 20th.

[Phenomenonsense]

Which would have required Duren to accept the smaller contract the Lakers gave Kessler. No indication he was willing to do that or that the Lakers were willing to offer him more. Just an unconfirmed comment from the Lakers that he was a max player- which was immediately followed by them signing a completely different player.

The Lakers wanted additional space to further supplement their roster around Luka. There's no reason to believe they were willing to entertain giving Duren what his contract demands were at the time (which likely would have entailed the maximum the Lakers could offer, which would have prevented them from adding the other players they did).

The BYC means if we make a trade with ANY team that doesn't have cap space to absorb Duren (which by that point was everyone but the Lakers), he counts as only half of the salary for the purposes of salary matching for us (IE we can only take back slightly more than half of whatever he signed for), but would still count for the full salary to the team receiving him. In other words, they have to send out something that matches Duren's full salary, but we can't receive it.

This makes trades very hard to do. It does more than restrict "who can come back". It makes the math of such a move very difficult to manage.

Sure, we can pretend that the reports that detroit had no interest in a Sign and trade and would match any offer had no impact on the lakers decision points if it helps your point my dude. No problem. And I am aware of the BYC, which is convenient to discredit the possibility of operating as a team with cap space that could absorb a contract disparity. Arguing under the assumption that I want a sign and trade now is asinine. I said those with foresight would have done a sign and trade. The key being foresight. As in, prior to now, where it is more than obvious that I was correct.

Except that a team would normally only resort to a S&T if they felt they would be otherwise unsuccessful in retaining him or didn't want to. That doesn't describe the Pistons at all. They want to sign Duren and believe they will be successful at doing so.

Why would you ever anticipate or have 'foresight' that your endeavor to extend someone at what is widely agreed upon as fair terms would ultimately fail when you hold all of the leverage?

If Duren takes the QO it will universally be viewed as a risky and stupid move if a 5/187 deal is on the table from the Pistons. Because the QO is 1/9.6 million and the biggest contract from another team is 4/177. So he'd literally be risking 177 million of guaranteed money with no financial upside.

A sign & trade never made sense for the Pistons strategically at any point.

Good point, the pistons performed perfectly. Damn the cursed luck that things turned out this way.

[Snakebites]

Sure, we can pretend that the reports that detroit had no interest in a Sign and trade and would match any offer had no impact on the lakers decision points if it helps your point my dude. No problem. And I am aware of the BYC, which is convenient to discredit the possibility of operating as a team with cap space that could absorb a contract disparity. Arguing under the assumption that I want a sign and trade now is asinine. I said those with foresight would have done a sign and trade. The key being foresight. As in, prior to now, where it is more than obvious that I was correct.

Except that a team would normally only resort to a S&T if they felt they would be otherwise unsuccessful in retaining him or didn't want to. That doesn't describe the Pistons at all. They want to sign Duren and believe they will be successful at doing so.

Why would you ever anticipate or have 'foresight' that your endeavor to extend someone at what is widely agreed upon as fair terms would ultimately fail when you hold all of the leverage?

If Duren takes the QO it will universally be viewed as a risky and stupid move if a 5/187 deal is on the table from the Pistons. Because the QO is 1/9.6 million and the biggest contract from another team is 4/177. So he'd literally be risking 177 million of guaranteed money with no financial upside.

A sign & trade never made sense for the Pistons strategically at any point.

Good point, the pistons performed perfectly. Damn the cursed luck that things turned out this way.

Turned out what way?

Things haven't "turned out" any way yet.

If Duren's contract demands really are beyond what anyone is willing to pay him AND he is willing to take the QO in pursuance of the goal of getting such a deal, what IS the FO supposed to do?

[BadMofoPimp]

Well, the Pistons could always trade Duren after he accepts a Qualifying Offer. Would that be another way to get Murphy and Missi if they added some 1sts?

[ducler]

Well, the Pistons could always trade Duren after he accepts a Qualifying Offer. Would that be another way to get Murphy and Missi if they added some 1sts?

I'm not sure of it but I think Duren must agree with any trade if he takes the QO. IMO if that's the case, no way he accepts to be traded anywhere as it's a big risk for his value to play without Cade.

[bstein14]

Well, the Pistons could always trade Duren after he accepts a Qualifying Offer. Would that be another way to get Murphy and Missi if they added some 1sts?

I'm not sure of it but I think Duren must agree with any trade if he takes the QO. IMO if that's the case, no way he accepts to be traded anywhere as it's a big risk for his value to play without Cade.

Duren must agree, and the team also doesn't get bird rights to resign Duren... so you have a situation where he really would only be smart to accept a trade to a team where he'll get lots of shots and a team where they will be able to create max cap space to resign him when he's a FA.

[Snakebites]

Well, the Pistons could always trade Duren after he accepts a Qualifying Offer. Would that be another way to get Murphy and Missi if they added some 1sts?

Duren would control where he could be traded to. A QO carries with it a full no-trade clause. This combined with the pending UFA would severely limit his trade value.

[Kalamazoo317]

Yeah, so there's basically zero return on that trade. But he's also really really rolling the dice if he accepts the QO. I think he'll end up signing that 4 year 160 million contract that was rumored. Might be a deal where he's arguing for a PO on the fourth year and team is arguing for a TO or something like that.

[BadMofoPimp]

I think a deal will get done by training camp:

Sam Amick on Jalen Duren's contract status with the Pistons: "There is a gap. It's not as big as I thought it was before having a few recent conversations. It seems like there's a window here to get something done and put him back in a Pistons jersey. I think what's interesting is like the QO has become such a nuclear option for players and also for teams that it's fair to wonder like man if they can't completely bridge that gap, how do both sides feel about the QO? Because even from a human standpoint, we haven't seen a lot of people successfully take that route."

https://sports.yahoo.com/articles/contract-gap-between-jalen-duren-214559450.html

[Canadafan]

Yeah, so there's basically zero return on that trade. But he's also really really rolling the dice if he accepts the QO. I think he'll end up signing that 4 year 160 million contract that was rumored. Might be a deal where he's arguing for a PO on the fourth year and team is arguing for a TO or something like that.

Ugh. That sure seems pointless that we strung it out this long just to give him $40/yr. That would be hugely disappointing

[bstein14]

26-27: $34 million + $1.5 mil for making the conference finals + $1.5 mil for making the NBA Finals
27-28: $36 million + $1.5 + $1.5
28-29: $38 million + $1.5 + $1.5
29-30: $40 million + $1.5 + $1.5 (Team Option here would be ideal but probably not likely)

TOTAL = 4 years $148 million guaranteed with a possible extra $12 million of unlikely bonuses that are solely based on team success. Total max could be up to $40 million per year which is 4 years $160 million.

I can get on board with having extra money be there for making the conference Finals and the NBA Finals.

I think I would be on board giving that same exact contract to Ausar and Duren both even though its a bit high and we'd still be very much banking on internal improvement from both.

[Canadafan]

26-27: $34 million + $1.5 mil for making the conference finals + $1.5 mil for making the NBA Finals
27-28: $36 million + $1.5 + $1.5
28-29: $38 million + $1.5 + $1.5
29-30: $40 million + $1.5 + $1.5 (Team Option here would be ideal but probably not likely)

TOTAL = 4 years $148 million guaranteed with a possible extra $12 million of unlikely bonuses that are solely based on team success. Total max could be up to $40 million per year which is 4 years $160 million.

I can get on board with having extra money be there for making the conference Finals and the NBA Finals.

I think I would be on board giving that same exact contract to Ausar and Duren both even though its a bit high and we'd still be very much banking on internal improvement from both.

That would be nice but how often do you see an incentive laden deal like this?

[bstein14]

26-27: $34 million + $1.5 mil for making the conference finals + $1.5 mil for making the NBA Finals
27-28: $36 million + $1.5 + $1.5
28-29: $38 million + $1.5 + $1.5
29-30: $40 million + $1.5 + $1.5 (Team Option here would be ideal but probably not likely)

TOTAL = 4 years $148 million guaranteed with a possible extra $12 million of unlikely bonuses that are solely based on team success. Total max could be up to $40 million per year which is 4 years $160 million.

I can get on board with having extra money be there for making the conference Finals and the NBA Finals.

I think I would be on board giving that same exact contract to Ausar and Duren both even though its a bit high and we'd still be very much banking on internal improvement from both.

That would be nice but how often do you see an incentive laden deal like this?

Jordan Poole has up to $3.75 million in incentives per year, including money for being MVP, DPOY, all-nba, and all-defense teams.

But you are correct its not super common usually those incentives are for things like games played and usually in contracts of players who have injury history.

I just think incentives are a way for Duren and his agent to fell like they won, get a number as high as $40 million per year but for Detroit they could likely keep it closer to $36 million per year guaranteed plus possibly more if the team has success. I don't like things for being an all-star, all-nba, etc because they often put individual performance over team success but I could see Duren wanting those to be reasons for making the extra money.

[Canadafan]

26-27: $34 million + $1.5 mil for making the conference finals + $1.5 mil for making the NBA Finals
27-28: $36 million + $1.5 + $1.5
28-29: $38 million + $1.5 + $1.5
29-30: $40 million + $1.5 + $1.5 (Team Option here would be ideal but probably not likely)

TOTAL = 4 years $148 million guaranteed with a possible extra $12 million of unlikely bonuses that are solely based on team success. Total max could be up to $40 million per year which is 4 years $160 million.

I can get on board with having extra money be there for making the conference Finals and the NBA Finals.

I think I would be on board giving that same exact contract to Ausar and Duren both even though its a bit high and we'd still be very much banking on internal improvement from both.

That would be nice but how often do you see an incentive laden deal like this?

Jordan Poole has up to $3.75 million in incentives per year, including money for being MVP, DPOY, all-nba, and all-defense teams.

But you are correct its not super common usually those incentives are for things like games played and usually in contracts of players who have injury history.

I just think incentives are a way for Duren and his agent to fell like they won, get a number as high as $40 million per year but for Detroit they could likely keep it closer to $36 million per year guaranteed plus possibly more if the team has success. I don't like things for being an all-star, all-nba, etc because they often put individual performance over team success but I could see Duren wanting those to be reasons for making the extra money.

I love the idea
Especially if its for your ideas and not the nonsense All-NBA teams which we all know too well to be a farce

[Canadafan]

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Doesn't work cap wise with BYC but still. Could be worse if they could figure out how to make it work