Rios as the Leadoff Hitter....

[asif9t9]

This reeks of desperation. It's like starting Halladay every 4 games or something. Sure it might help in the shortterm, but it's NOT a longterm solution.

Now watch Gibbons play Rios as the leadoff for a while. Funny thing is I think Rios probably doesn't mind it. Now he can stick to hitting weak singles. Get on base, bring up his average. Basically play like the smaller player he was always meant to be.

Problem is, with Rios as the leadoff, we now have a 3, 4, 5 of Rolen, Stairs and Vernon. OMFG!! How we have fallen.

Are you guys okay with Rios hitting leadoff for the timebeing, to get us winning a couple of more games?

[The_Hater]

'Reeks of desperation?!?!' I thought that leading Rios off was one of the smartest moves Gibbons has made all season.

With his increasing aptitude for drawing walks, Rios leads our team in OBP by a wide margain and ranks 6th in the AL and he's one of our fastest players. Aren't those the exact attributes you like to see in a leadoff guy? Meanwhile our usual leadoff hitter, Eckstein, has always been a very average on base guy. He'd be better served hitting 8th or 9th but I doubt Gibbons makes this move permanently. And despite popular belief, Rios isn't a true slugger that has to bat in the middle of the order. He's more of a 20-25 HR guy at best.

The 2 other things I liked with yesterday's lineup was Overbay batting 2nd (he's 2nd in OBP) and the R/L/R/L thing throughout the lineup. That makes a big difference late in games when opposing managers try and get the pitching match-ups they want. I was very afraid that Gibbons was going to put 2 lefties together with Lind around.

[asif9t9]

Hey, I don't have a problem with Rios hitting leadoff, if that's what he is. He's obviously more comfortable when he's not trying to hit the ball hard.

But if we use him as a leadoff hitter, then our "power" guy are really weak. I don't want Rios batting leadoff until he goes into a bit of a slump and then putting back somewhere else in the lineup. We need to start slotting guys into spots. If Rios is our leadoff hitter, then fine. But that better be a decision JP is comfortable with, because then we need JP going after some power for the lineup.

[Mike Hunt]

Having your best hitter make the most plate appearances possible is always a good idea, in my opinion. The fact that he's got other attributes lead-off hitters tend to have makes the decision all the more simple.

[Schad]

'Reeks of desperation?!?!' I thought that leading Rios off was one of the smartest moves Gibbons has made all season.

With his increasing aptitude for drawing walks, Rios leads our team in OBP by a wide margain and ranks 6th in the AL and he's one of our fastest players. Aren't those the exact attributes you like to see in a leadoff guy? Meanwhile our usual leadoff hitter, Eckstein, has always been a very average on base guy. He'd be better served hitting 8th or 9th but I doubt Gibbons makes this move permanently. And despite popular belief, Rios isn't a true slugger that has to bat in the middle of the order. He's more of a 20-25 HR guy at best.

The 2 other things I liked with yesterday's lineup was Overbay batting 2nd (he's 2nd in OBP) and the R/L/R/L thing throughout the lineup. That makes a big difference late in games when opposing managers try and get the pitching match-ups they want. I was very afraid that Gibbons was going to put 2 lefties together with Lind around.

Agreed...Rios/Overbay is an excellent 1-2 now that Rios is drawing walks. In addition, it's nice to have a line-up when the top five players are all capable of getting extra-base hits; it's so much easier to drive in a run if the 3-4-5 guys are actually coming up with men on base.

The key, IMO, is to really place pressure on the opposing pitcher for as many ABs per game as possible. Slotting your best hitters 1 through 5 guarantees a few more at-bats over the course of the year, and having top-of-the-order guys with power means that the starting pitchers have to work a little more carefully. Having guys with power and the ability to take a walk is a recipe for high pitch counts, and more frequent tours of opposing bullpens. I am very much in favour of this move.

[The_Hater]

Hey, I don't have a problem with Rios hitting leadoff, if that's what he is. He's obviously more comfortable when he's not trying to hit the ball hard..

I don't really get this? Players are always trying to hit the ball hard. It's a very important factor in becoming a succesful MLB hitter. Are you suggesting that Rios has stopped trying to hit the ball hard simply based on the fact that he now leads an inning off 1 time every game?

But if we use him as a leadoff hitter, then our "power" guy are really weak. I don't want Rios batting leadoff until he goes into a bit of a slump and then putting back somewhere else in the lineup. We need to start slotting guys into spots. If Rios is our leadoff hitter, then fine. But that better be a decision JP is comfortable with, because then we need JP going after some power for the lineup.

Rios is by far our best leadoff hitting option. How is that not slotting guys in the lineup properly?

While I think that putting all your power down the lineup is an overrated tactic, even then we would still have Rolen, Stairs, Wells and Hill in the 3-6 holes. They've all demonstated as much or more power than Rios in the past. And even Overbay and Lind can be 20 HR hitters in the 2 & 7 holes. Rios career high is 24 HR's.

Also look at the top offensive teams and you'll find that many of them have a potential 20+ HR hitter leading off. Cleveland with Sizemore. The Yankees/Red Sox with Damon. Detroit with Granderson. As others mentioned, loading your best hitters near the top of the order has been proven to be a far better strategy than putting a couple of dink and dunk so-called table setter guys up there. And I think that's what you meant previously by 'slotting' guys.

One more thing that people generally forget. The lead-off hitter is only really that guy once a game. In the 1st inning. 11% of the entire game. After that, every guy in the order could be the lead-off hitter in any given inning. So why not have your best hitters in spots where they're likely to get extra AB's and put your weaker hitters at the bottom? It seems so simple but so many managers out think themselves on this.

[asif9t9]

I think you guys are misinterpreting me. If Rios is our leadoff hitter of the future, then I'm fine with it. I do think he has all the talents we'd need. But do I think he'd tend not to swing for the fences? Yes. I think it's very different when you're just trying to put the fat part of the bat on the ball to line it the other way, than to try and jack it out of the field.

But fine, I gave up on Rios being a 30HR guy a long time ago. So, let's put him in the 1-spot. Leave him there. I saw this in previous years, where Gibby would keep mixing things up all year. Wasn't Rios great as a leadoff hitter in previous years, too? Why didn't they leave him there?

I don't feel comfortable at all with Rolen, Stairs, Wells and Hill as 3-6. It's just more of us trying to get enough clutch hits to win games. We need the power that brings the odd 2 or 3-run homer to take the pressure off guys to keep getting base hits.

We're all on the same side, hoping for the team to start winning.

[Schad]

I think you guys are misinterpreting me. If Rios is our leadoff hitter of the future, then I'm fine with it. I do think he has all the talents we'd need. But do I think he'd tend not to swing for the fences? Yes. I think it's very different when you're just trying to put the fat part of the bat on the ball to line it the other way, than to try and jack it out of the field.

But fine, I gave up on Rios being a 30HR guy a long time ago. So, let's put him in the 1-spot. Leave him there. I saw this in previous years, where Gibby would keep mixing things up all year. Wasn't Rios great as a leadoff hitter in previous years, too? Why didn't they leave him there?

They don't want Rios to change his approach hitting lead-off...his level slight-pull swing is perfect, no need for him to start trying to dump pitches in shallow right field.

Conversely, I doubt that they want him going out there looking to slam home runs; with his stroke, he'll get his share, but trying to jack every pitch would be bad for his OBP and likely would lead to too many meaningless pop outs. Better to go up there with the patient approach he has shown, work favourable counts, and use those 3-1 or 2-0 counts to go for the fences, as his approach is exactly the reason they moved him to that spot.

He really shouldn't see a significant decline in his HR totals as a result, unless it's because teams are pitching around him due to our weak 7-8-9 guys.

I don't feel comfortable at all with Rolen, Stairs, Wells and Hill as 3-6. It's just more of us trying to get enough clutch hits to win games. We need the power that brings the odd 2 or 3-run homer to take the pressure off guys to keep getting base hits.

We're all on the same side, hoping for the team to start winning.

All four of those guys should see more meaningful PAs with runners on base, and Rios/Overbay provide those. Wells was effective early but has tailed off in part because he has batted in fewer "no place to put him" situations. When Wells can key on fastballs, he's gold. When pitchers can off-speed him to death, he can be awful.

[Geddy]

I don't think Rios is naturally a power/RBI guy to start with. Putting him on at the 1 spot gives the Jays more options once he's on base. It's better to have him attempt stolen bases, and hit and runs with the 2, 3 guys at bat, rather then when the power guys are up.

[asif9t9]

A lot of people in this thread who are smarter than me said putting Rios in the 1-spot would be wonderful. Rios would be on base, and all the guys below him would come up with meaningful at bats.

I'm still waiting.

[The_Hater]

A lot of people in this thread who are smarter than me said putting Rios in the 1-spot would be wonderful. Rios would be on base, and all the guys below him would come up with meaningful at bats.

I'm still waiting.

You're so smart.

He was 4 for 5 leading off during the first game after you made the thread but you failed to mention that. Since then the entire offense has been awful not just Rios.

Or are you somehow trying to say that Rios and Eckstein would be magically hitting better the past 2 games if they had been batting in different spots in the order? Do you honestly think that's how hitting works?

[asif9t9]

My original point was that the move reeked of desperation. ie. the offence is brutal and JP and Gibby were trying to mask it. Everytime you switch guys around, you might spark things for a bit. What we need is a solid lineup, 1 thru 9, which only changes occasionally, to give guys rest, or to switchup platoon players.

My last post was taking a shot at everyone, including Mike Wilner, who keep saying things aren't that bad. There's 136 games left, there's 135 games left, there's 134 games left. It's just an ongoing countdown.

[Harold_and_Kumar]

My original point was that the move reeked of desperation. ie. the offence is brutal and JP and Gibby were trying to mask it. Everytime you switch guys around, you might spark things for a bit. What we need is a solid lineup, 1 thru 9, which only changes occasionally, to give guys rest, or to switchup platoon players.

My last post was taking a shot at everyone, including Mike Wilner, who keep saying things aren't that bad. There's 136 games left, there's 135 games left, there's 134 games left. It's just an ongoing countdown.

Things aren't that bad...

Yankees - 16-16
Cleveland - 14-16
Detroit - 14-17

that's just teams from the AL with a comparable record to the Jays who are expected to compete for divisions.

conversely...

Oakland - 18-14
Tampa Bay - 16-14
Baltimore - 16-14

This is not to say any of these teams are horrible, and that a start like that wasn't possible (besides Baltimore) but the point is...there is a tonne of season left to play

[jalenrose#5]

I don't mind Rios hitting leadoff, he gets on base, steals and can hit for some power. Eckstein, for some reason, just doesn't have it this year. The bat has been really inconsistant this year, he should really be hitting 8th or 9th. If I was Gibby...

Rios(R)
Overbay(L)
Rolen(R)
Stairs(L)
Wells(R)
Lind(L)/Adams(L)(paying attention...lol)
Hill(R)
Zaun(S)
Eckstein(R)

If we go up against a lefty, just switch Overbay and Lind(who turns into Stewart)

[SDM]

I think it's a great move. As others have mentioned, he seems to be getting on base with more frequency. If he turns into a .310/.380 player with 20/80/20, I think it's a great turnover. Add twenty more steals and take away ten homers and that's Tim Raines in his prime.

He probably is our best hitter and he should be batting third if we had an ideal leadoff man. However, if Stairs hits like he did today, and Wells hits like he did yesterday, and Rolen hits like he did the day before, we'll be fine with the middle of the order.

[Holmes]

Let's not get carried away here. Rios has not walked in any of the games that he's been the leadoff hitter. His .OBP in that spot is actually lower than his average in that spot. But I do agree that he should be our leadoff hitter.

Rios in the leadoff spot is necessary to jump start a lethargic offense where it was obvious that Eckstein was not working, Riccardi's vision of Stewart back as the Jays leadoff guy blew up in his face and Reed Johnson was making things happen somewhere other than Toronto.

Right now I picture Rios as a 2006 Soriano with much less power and stealing ability. But the Washington Nationals ended up near the bottom in runs scored that year and you'd think that if he was batting 3rd or 4th he would have generated a little more than 95 RBIs when he belted 46 HRs. Him batting leadoff the entire year resulted in way to many solo bombs. But then again, unless Ryan Zimmerman and Nick Johnson batted 1-2 nobody else was going to make things happen at the top of that lineup. Just like how you couldn't put Zim and Johnson 1-2, we can't put Rolen and Wells 1-2. With Rios's speed he makes a logical choice to hit leadoff in a situation where a choice had to made about that spot.