It's one or the other (Noah and Ty)

[Red Larrivee]

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Just stop typing.

Am I wrong though? It's not hard to develop a jumpshot, it's just a matter of if you're better suited trying to do it.

Chandler was never better suited trying to shoot 18 foot jumpers. Same with Curry. But I'm sure they can shoot a jumpshot. But it's just not what will be best for their NBA game. Not a strength, never will be.

Tyrus I think is better doing what Chandler does. Tyrus just isn't a good basketball player. He's a good athlete yes, but not a good basketball player. Most of what he does is going to be based off athleticism. He has 0 skill for the game, which is why his jumper will probably be shaky for the while. He needs someone to complement his athleticism like Paul did for Chandler in New Orleans. We all know Chandler was a good athlete, but his skill was just way off. Now that he has someone like Chris Paul who's a good playmaker and creator, his athletic abilities have been complimented. We don't have that here.

[coldfish]

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Am I wrong though? It's not hard to develop a jumpshot, it's just a matter of if you're better suited trying to do it.

Chandler was never better suited trying to shoot 18 foot jumpers. Same with Curry. But I'm sure they can shoot a jumpshot. But it's just not what will be best for their NBA game. Not a strength, never will be.

Tyrus I think is better doing what Chandler does. Tyrus just isn't a good basketball player. He's a good athlete yes, but not a good basketball player. Most of what he does is going to be based off athleticism. He has 0 skill for the game, which is why his jumper will probably be shaky for the while. He needs someone to complement his athleticism like Paul did for Chandler in New Orleans. We all know Chandler was a good athlete, but his skill was just way off. Now that he has someone like Chris Paul who's a good playmaker and creator, his athletic abilities have been complimented. We don't have that here.

Its amazing how much Tyrus accomplishes in his time on the court with no skill and no Chris Paul to help him out.

December, per 48:
19.8p 13.3r 4.6a 2.2s 2.8blk 46%fg 89%ft

Imagine how productive he could be if he had skills like Pau Gasol:
22.6p 11.8r 4.5a 0.8s 1.5blk 48%fg 82%ft

[mr.ankle]

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Then we need new leadership.

His jump shot still looks horrible . He may make one . Every once in a while . But he misses more than he makes

[DJhitek]

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I have not seen any improvement in his offense . To me he still looks raw as ever . The Bulls should cut there loses and try trade him . He's not going to develop here .

Your right, he is not going to develope here, but to say he hasn't improved isn't accurate or fair. You give him more than 25 minutes and he produces. It's that simple. He scores and rebounds, better than Ben Wallace does. You can't honestly ask anyone to get better with the disparity of minutes he gets...it's not fair to anyone..Noah included.

I agree Magilla, if he can't develope here like the few others than we need a different staff.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

Am I wrong though?

Yes.

[Dearth]

If there was no veteran entitlement minutes, we would never have a problem playing them both.

So if there wasn't veteran entitlement minutes there could be young guy entitlement minutes?

You propose a swap of entitlement minutes then?

Face it they're going to play who they feel gives them the best chance to win and right now it isn't Noah and Thomas together.

If it gets to the point that we aren't looking playoff bound OR here is the big "or" if the young guys start competing at a higher level and get better in practice. If Tyrus and Noah are killing in practice they'll get more time. How do you think Gray is getting minutes?

Gray isn't such an outstanding talent that he deserves 8 minutes a game but he's worked his way to it the right way.

[coldfish]

So if there wasn't veteran entitlement minutes there could be young guy entitlement minutes?

You propose a swap of entitlement minutes then?

Face it they're going to play who they feel gives them the best chance to win and right now it isn't Noah and Thomas together.

If it gets to the point that we aren't looking playoff bound OR here is the big "or" if the young guys start competing at a higher level and get better in practice. If Tyrus and Noah are killing in practice they'll get more time. How do you think Gray is getting minutes?

Gray isn't such an outstanding talent that he deserves 8 minutes a game but he's worked his way to it the right way.

I would argue that, right now, Joakim Noah is better than Wallace doing basically the same thing. When Wallace is "on" his game, he is better defensively, about the same rebounding and worse on offense. I think its pretty much a given that Wallace will return to his "off" state soon, leaving Noah as the more consistent option.

People don't like these stats, but they back up my assertion:
Noah 17.9 PER +6.7
Wallace 13.1 PER -1.0

[Magilla_Gorilla]

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I would argue that, right now, Joakim Noah is better than Wallace doing basically the same thing. When Wallace is "on" his game, he is better defensively, about the same rebounding and worse on offense. I think its pretty much a given that Wallace will return to his "off" state soon, leaving Noah as the more consistent option.

People don't like these stats, but they back up my assertion:
Noah 17.9 PER +6.7
Wallace 13.1 PER -1.0

I was just about to post the same thing. Its not "entitlement minutes" if the rookies are out playing the veterans in front of them.

[transplant]

"The guys know I can't play all of them," Boylan said. "So on a game-by-game basis, we'll see how the matchups go. Practice, what your attitude is around the team, how positive you are, all those things will factor into it.

I'm not fond of this quote, particularly the bolded part. Sounds too much like, "if you're a good little boy, you might get a cookie."

I suppose it's true right now that it's TT or Noah, but I don't see this as the long-term situation. I see Noah as Wallace's replacement. He's behind Gray right now, but that may be because Gray is a great change-up from Wallace, while Noah is similar to Wallace. I see Gray remaining in the backup C role and Noah taking over from Wallace as the starter. Obviously, Noah is going to have to get stronger for this to happen.

As for Thomas, he ought to be in whenever Gray's in. They balance each other well.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

As for Thomas, he ought to be in whenever Gray's in. They balance each other well.

Bingo, thats what I have been saying - those two are perfect for each other.

[bre9]

I hope Boylan keeps giving Noah more playing time. He's a hustler when he's out there and he knows his role.

[DuckIII]

As for Thomas, he ought to be in whenever Gray's in. They balance each other well.

I completely agree. They also seem to have a very good feel for each other and genuinely look to get each other the ball.

As for Noah providing more than Wallace and "entitlement minutes" - not responding to you, Transplant - I think we have to throw out everything that Wallace did or didn't do before Boylan took over.

He's looked like a completely different player, and to think that Noah could be providing what Wallace is currently providing is, in my opinion, suggestive of understandable residual disappointment in Wallace.

Who here actually thinks Noah could have kept Howard out of his comfort zone all game? Wallace was muscling and moving and anticipating Howard all game. Had Noah been in there, Howard might have put up 30/25.

My evaluation of the Wallace situation goes like this: He's got a clean slate from me. I'll support Boylan playing him at the expense of Thomas or Noah as long as he's producing.

The problem under Skiles is that he was playing Wallace at the expense of Thomas and Noah regardless of how Wallace was playing. To date, that can't be said of Boylan.

[coldfish]

Who here actually thinks Noah could have kept Howard out of his comfort zone all game? Wallace was muscling and moving and anticipating Howard all game. Had Noah been in there, Howard might have put up 30/25.

Howard put up 17 and 22. That's a good, but not great game for him. Effectively, compared to your typical NBA defender, Wallace did an average job and he did it with a lot of help from guards. Wallace certainly did not shut Howard down.

On the other side of the court, Wallace continues to be a huge liability. His offense is near all time NBA worst.

In effect, Bulls fans have set the bar amazingly low for Wallace. During a good game, he displays average to above average defense with horrid offense. That's not good.

Would Brendan Haywood be worse? I don't think so.

Chicago simply cannot expect to go far while giving 40+mpg to a below average NBA center.

[DuckIII]

Howard put up 17 and 22. That's a good, but not great game for him. Effectively, compared to your typical NBA defender, Wallace did an average job and he did it with a lot of help from guards. Wallace certainly did not shut Howard down.

Howard got good numbers on the glass and hit his free throws at a higher clip. But he was completely taken out of his comfort zone on offense. Took several shots that were awkward that lead directly to Bulls possessions and was involved with several turnovers because Wallace wasn't allowing Orlando to make the passes that are their bread and butter with Howard.

His rebounding numbers were high, but the rebounds were common. Balls coming to him. Nothing dominant. The Bulls outrebouned Orlando.

I think Wallace did an incredible job on Howard, even with those numbers. I think it was his best game of the season. Essentially, because of Wallace the Bulls played an Orlando team that was forced to win with their perimeter game. Howard had some nice numbers, but wasn't a big factor in the game. And I've seen Orlando enough to know that when they play, 90% of the time he's not only a big factor, but he's THE factor.

Let me put it this way, you put Noah or Gray out there for a big chunk of Wallace's minutes yesterday, and the Bulls lose that game by 18 points. Thats how big of a role Wallace's defense played in that game in my opinion.

[coldfish]

Let me put it this way, you put Noah or Gray out there for a big chunk of Wallace's minutes yesterday, and the Bulls lose that game by 18 points. Thats how big of a role Wallace's defense played in that game in my opinion.

Obviously you and I see it differently. I think if Noah and Gray split that time, the Bulls win by 5. There really isn't any way to prove that though.

IMO, regardless of which side of this you come down on, the handling of Wallace's minutes will be the most critical aspect to the team going forward. I think Gordon, Hinrich and Deng are "fixed" of whatever issues they had.

[djalterego]

Noah:
Regular Season Ranks
* Ranks #11 in the NBA in Steals Per Turnover(1.06)
* Ranks #38 in the NBA in Free Throws Per 48 Minutes(5.46)
* Ranks #44 in the NBA in Free Throw Attempts Per 48 Minutes(6.99)
* Ranks #2 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(6.1)
* Ranks #47 in the NBA in Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(11.9)
* Ranks #5 in the NBA in Steals Per 48 Minutes(2.9)
* Ranks #25 in the NBA in Blocks Per 48 Minutes(2.56)

Thomas:
Regular Season Ranks
* Ranks #43 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(3.9)
* Ranks #32 in the NBA in Defensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(9.2)
* Ranks #33 in the NBA in Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(13.1)
* Ranks #44 in the NBA in Steals Per 48 Minutes(1.91)
* Ranks #30 in the NBA in Blocks Per 48 Minutes(2.25)

Noah > Thomas?

[Iguana775]

I feel stupider just reading those comments. I thought the whole reason Pax fired Skiles is cause he wanted the young guys developed.

[tclg]

I think we will see more playing time for the young guys once we get to 500

[Bull Shak]

What the hell are you guys complaining about. After 3 games in regulation we are 2-0-1 (2 wins, 1 tie). Its obvious that what Boylan is doing is working. When you extend that to over the 3 games, thats 2-1, with the one loss being on a shot with .7 seconds less. If we continue at this pace the rest of the year, we will finish with a 47-35 record. Not the greatest, but still good considering our start.

Wallace and Smith have EARNED their minutes over the young guys. Gray is a better player than both.

I think long term, we are looking at Gray as the starter, and Noah as the powerforward. Thomas gone, off the team. Ideally, it'd be Gray and Tyrus starting, with Noah 6th man, but I don't think Tyrus wants to be greata, and will just end up like Darius Miles (only Miles actually had some skills).

[Magilla_Gorilla]

Wallace and Smith have EARNED their minutes over the young guys. Gray is a better player than both.

The numbers say otherwise.

I think long term, we are looking at Gray as the starter, and Noah as the powerforward. Thomas gone, off the team. Ideally, it'd be Gray and Tyrus starting, with Noah 6th man, but I don't think Tyrus wants to be greata, and will just end up like Darius Miles (only Miles actually had some skills).

Clearly you never saw Miles play.