It's one or the other (Noah and Ty)

[cark]

Some part of me is still hoping that Boylan was asked to showcase Wallace and Nocioni, which would explain all their minutes, regardless of performance.

Or maybe it's just their attitude in practice. According to 82games, Wallace's and Noce's Practice Attitude PERs are off the charts!

[Ralphb07]

I have a serious question and would like the answer to be other than when you do there per 48 this is what there numbers will be. If you dont get many minutes of course your per 48 will be higher and when you play a lot of minutes it will be lower. heres my question

Do you all and from what base do you all think tyrus and Joakim will help us win more this year?

As much as everyone complains about Wallace, he is playing better under Boylan. Wallace does more than what his stats show. How many tips out has he had, he can defend and doesnt need help doing it. You win in this league with VETS.

Thomas and Noah should get back up minutes i do agree with that. But for you people think they should start, is ridiclous. neither is ready and we will be in a big mess if they did.

What Boylan is doing is 100% right and I dont see why you guys dont see it. We need to start winning first and formost and the best way for that is Wallace,Smith,Deng,Gordon,Hinrich,Noc,Duhon. Once we get on track and start winning you start working on that bench with Noah and Tyrus. Maybe in time Noc and Duhon are traded for that big two guard, which will give those guys more mins.

My point is instead of worrying about getting Tyrus and Noah mins, let's worry about getting the TEAM back to winning.


The one person that I think shouldnt be playing a lot is NOC but I understand why. Boylan gets us wins which = confidence in Wallace, Gordon,Deng,Hinrich which = when Noah and Thomas play, it's in a better sitiuation and putting them in a spot to suceed.

[coldfish]

I have a serious question and would like the answer to be other than when you do there per 48 this is what there numbers will be. If you dont get many minutes of course your per 48 will be higher and when you play a lot of minutes it will be lower. heres my question

Statisticians have studied this. Per minute stats generally stay the same if not improve as the minutes played go up. It can be argued if its a leading or trailing stat, but there is no evidence that people play worse the more they play.

For example, look at Tyrus last year. After Nocioni got injured and he started getting more minutes, he magically got a lot better per minute.

Do you all and from what base do you all think tyrus and Joakim will help us win more this year?

As much as everyone complains about Wallace, he is playing better under Boylan. Wallace does more than what his stats show. How many tips out has he had, he can defend and doesnt need help doing it. You win in this league with VETS.

Let's talk about yesterday then. He played really hard and got lots of tips.

That being said, I cite two plays:
- In the 4th quarter, he had the ball almost totally uncovered. He turned around for an uncontested layup and missed it.
- Gordon had the ball up top and Wallace set a pick. Howard sprinted at Gordon with no thought whatsoever about Wallace, because if he got the ball you just foul him or he misses a layup. End result was a turnover.

Those kind of things happen all the time. The "Ben Wallace high pick and roll is a bad idea" concept is pretty well known around here and even gets comments from opposing announcers.

Thomas and Noah should get back up minutes i do agree with that. But for you people think they should start, is ridiclous. neither is ready and we will be in a big mess if they did.

That's just your opinion. Particularly with Noah, point to some examples where the team falls apart because of him. I don't think you can.

What Boylan is doing is 100% right and I dont see why you guys dont see it. We need to start winning first and formost and the best way for that is Wallace,Smith,Deng,Gordon,Hinrich,Noc,Duhon. Once we get on track and start winning you start working on that bench with Noah and Tyrus. Maybe in time Noc and Duhon are traded for that big two guard, which will give those guys more mins.

My point is instead of worrying about getting Tyrus and Noah mins, let's worry about getting the TEAM back to winning.

Well, again, what we see is a center who hurts the team on offense far more than he helps on defense and a PF (Nocioni) who's size creates problems for the Bulls more than any other size issue.

[Rerisen]

I wonder why it has never once been brought up in relation to Wallace this year that the Bulls have fallen off from being a top 3 defensive team like they have been the last few years and now squarely middle of the pack in the league, fairly average defensive team.

Everyone can share in the blame for this, but certainly should Wallace as well since we gave him 60 million to do nothing but play defense and rebound. And he also plays the position which can most affect the game on defense and leads the entire frontcourt in minutes per game.

[tclg]

We are 5th according to knickerblogger in defensive efficiency and 12 in efg I think we are doing ok defensively

[Rerisen]

We are 5th according to knickerblogger in defensive efficiency and 12 in efg I think we are doing ok defensively

That site is stuck on stats at 18 games played from what I'm looking at.

Mine are here.

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... /1/eff/1-1

[tclg]

I dont know 82 games has us at 104 point per 100 possesions 111 seems way to high

[Rerisen]

I dont know 82 games has us at 104 point per 100 possesions 111 seems way to high

That was loaded on opponent stats. So looking at your opponents efficiency there (see Bos 1, Det 2...) and we are 17th.

In FG% against we are 13th, and 10th in PPG against. 22nd worst in defending the 3. Were 14th in rebounding differential.

That's definitely middle of the pack.

[Neusch23]

[quote="coldfish]The "Ben Wallace high pick and roll is a bad idea" concept is pretty well known around here and even gets comments from opposing announcers.
[/quote]

I don't understand why the don't set the double pick up at all.

Meaning, Wallace sets the first screen, and they over play it...A second screen comes for gordon on Wallace's man, Gordon open for a jumper or Wallace for an ally.

This was done a lot in detroit with RIP. I have never seen us do it.

Remember the youtube vid of wallace while in detroit and he was getting all of those allys? RIP or chaucy were throwing those off of double screens.

[Rerisen]

I believe by Wallace's own admission because of his hand injuries (last year in Det?) he has trouble catching lobs and grasping the ball. Probably why you see it go flying out of his hand on so many shot attempts like he just loses it early before he is ready.

[Ralphb07]

Coldfish You talk about Three or four plays that Wallace didnt do, but if he doesnt do the plays he did we're not in the game. I can sit here and tell you what every player did wrong yesterday. So those really werent good examples to say.

Noah and Tyrus will be good one day and I do think both guys should get about 17mins a game once we get back on track. But when people talk about two players that have combined less than 3 years should be playing over a guy that has won more DPOY than the players years exprience, it bugs me.

Noah isnt strong enough yet to cover some guys. he would of picked up early fouls and wouldnt of played as much is he was on howard yesterday. Tyrus is really a SF/PF. He's a tweener so he definitely shouldnt be at the 5 spot ever.

when everyone talks about Noah and Tyrus they bring up Wallace. Now the guy blocking both of them is NOC. If noc wasnt here Tyrus would get those SF mins when Deng is out.

I just think people under value Wallace. I just dont think Noah or Tyrus should really be at the center spot. I'm only 27 but I'm old school in the fact that I feel it doesnt matter if you were a #2pick or 51st pick, you EARN your minutes. Neither of those guys are Kevin Durant type players or I would agree. I think Noah is more ready than Tyrus. I just see too many mistakes from tyrus when I watch him.

He shouldnt shoot that jump shot and what Pippen said about him is on the money. He needs to focus on what he is good at and do it. That 15 ft jumper shouldnt even be taken. Play defense, rebound, hustle down the court, and score on put backs and alley oops. Know your game and do it. Gray isnt the fastest guy in the world(my 5mth old niece is faster than him) but in last night game you got Noah and Gray running on a fast break together, you dont see that from Tyrus yet

[Rerisen]

I just think people under value Wallace.

Wallace would be a heck of a lot more useful if he never shot at all. Or at least only dunked and put in layups where he was left wide open under the hoop (he has enough trouble with those).

Even though the Bulls are hurt by starting Wallace because the rest of the team's offense is not good enough to compensate, what makes Wallace increasingly bad is not because he can't score. It's fine to play a guy that doesn't shoot if you are getting other people those shots and they are shooting a higher percentage. What hurts is when Wallace goes 1-5, 2-7, its those entitlement shots that teams are forced to give him to make him play hard and keep his head in the game. That's what he wanted more in Detroit from Flip. But if we offloaded 3 or 4 of those horrible shots he takes a game onto Deng or Gordon it could be the difference between winning or losing.

But starting Duhon and Wallace is going to guarantee both guys take more shots than you want them to, simply because they end up with the ball or the defense purposely allows those players to remain open.

[kyrv]

Christ Almighty.

So we don't play the two guys who could possibly take this team to the ext level.

Instead we start a frontcourt with an average age of 33 years old. Great idea.


I'm f*&^ing sick to my stomach.

Same.

I mean, I assumed Boylan thought that. But to see it in print, ugh. I would have liked to cling to the 1% chance that we were wrong about him.

You have two lottery picks who have played well and fill future needs, and they are fighting over scrap minutes. To quote Stacey King..."wwwwwooooooowwwwww".

Well Paxson - you are up. Again.

[derf]

I believe by Wallace's own admission because of his hand injuries (last year in Det?) he has trouble catching lobs and grasping the ball. Probably why you see it go flying out of his hand on so many shot attempts like he just loses it early before he is ready.

Wallace had surgery for Carpal Tunnel syndrome (I believe while he was in Orlando). The surgeon botched the job causing nerve damage and as a result Wallace has periods during the game when his hands go completely numb. During those times by his own admission he has trouble catching, shooting and even gripping the ball. I suspect these are the times we see air Ball free throws. I also suspect this is the reason Ben is refusing surgery to get the bone spurs in his feet removed.

My source for these little factoids is the ex Sports Illustrated writer Kelly Dwyer, better known on this board as JGiels. Dwyer further argued that Wallace was a serial coach killer and sooner or later would rebel against Scott Skiles . None of this is new and was apparently common knowledge around the league.

JGiels to the best of my recollection, was the only poster to argue aggressively against signing Ben Wallace.

[coldfish]

Coldfish You talk about Three or four plays that Wallace didnt do, but if he doesnt do the plays he did we're not in the game. I can sit here and tell you what every player did wrong yesterday. So those really werent good examples to say.

I was just giving examples. Every play on offense in every game, opposing teams double off of Wallace to make other player's lives difficult.

[Rerisen]

Wallace had surgery for Carpal Tunnel syndrome (I believe while he was in Orlando). The surgeon botched the job causing nerve damage and as a result Wallace has periods during the game when his hands go completely numb.

Good info. But I think the problem has gotten worse or is acting up more since his last season in Detroit. I thought there was even talk of him having further surgery at one point. Back in Detroit, he could still catch some of these lob plays, and do things like catch a rebound in mid-air and tip jam it home. You rarely ever see him do things like that anymore unless the play is dead like the one he did in NY the other night.

[League Circles]

SHOWCASE.

I do believe Pax told Boylan to try and get the main guys going because I think Pax is determined to make a trade of some sorts to improve the team and shake things up before the deadline. I think we can all agree that no one on this team will help us win a title this year. We can also mostly all agree that no matter what, without blatant and disgusting tanking, we will not be a horrible team this year. We will not wind up with a top 5 pick, or even a top 10 no matter who plays.

Therefore, what's best for this team is to try to maximize everyone's trade value so that our flexibility at the deadline is maximized. I think showing that Wallace can play 46 minutes while fouling only a couple times and grabbing boards, rebounding and playing D will dramatically raise his trade value, to the point where for a few teams he could even be a neutral to positive inclusion in a trade, rahter than the negative he is now to almost everyone.

I do think that Pax knows this team is being built around BG and Deng and Kirk (for better or worse). I also think Pax would prefer to trade guys who aren't going to get any better like BW and Noc.

One thing is for sure, if BW starts getting 20 mpg and grabbing 4 boards, he will be IMPOSSIBLE to trade. So basically what a lot of posters want to happen is for us to make the play we need to trade the most... totally untradeable.

This is a showcase. We are not good enough and have way too much of a log jam to not make a trade before the deadline. It's hard to say who will be part of this team long term. I do think everyone is available of course, but Pax will primarily be trying to trade BW, cause as long as he's here he must get minutes to maintain some semblance of trade value.

For those who say we should cut him, get real. I don't think he was a bad signing, and I do think he's still an effective player worth minutes in this league, but no there anymore. TT and Noah were the BPA IMO, and it is true we cannot give them both enough time until a trade is made. Instead of being dumb and trading one of them or Gray who looks to be a perfect long term backup C (in terms of skill set and likely pay demands), Pax is doing what he can to max the value of the one he knows he must trade (Wallace). Smith would be better to trade but his skill set compliments the other guys much better obviously so BW must go first.

TT and Noah have places on this team long term, but not at this moment. If I were to trade one it would be very hard and depend on who went with them and who we got back.

I think we'd be best off trading BW and Duhon to a team for an expiring and a decent 2.

We have 6 freaking guys who deserve time/should get time at the 4/5 not inlcuding Deng.

Gray
BW
Noah
Smith
TT
Noc

4 is ideal. It makes most sense to deal BW, and if that can't happen, deal Smith or Gray before the league determines that he's the slowest player around. You can't really trade both Smith and Gray due to offensive lackings.

Heck Noc is really the one to deal, although I love him and he's an animal, he is overrated by many and we could probably get a pretty good player for him. Noc for a 2/3 would be best, one who attacks the rim.

Noc plus Noah could land us a very quality player and really open things up.

[derf]

-= original quote snipped =-



Good info. But I think the problem has gotten worse or is acting up more since his last season in Detroit. I thought there was even talk of him having further surgery at one point. Back in Detroit, he could still catch some of these lob plays, and do things like catch a rebound in mid-air and tip jam it home. You rarely ever see him do things like that anymore unless the play is dead like the one he did in NY the other night.

Perhaps his hand striking the rim aggravates the problem. You are right though he seldom dunks anymore.

[Pedro Pistolas]

To me , Noah is a glorified Anderson Varejao.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

To me , Noah is a glorified Anderson Varejao.

Noah has a 17 PER, Anderson has a 14.


The only thing they have in common is the wild hair.