Bulls @ Bobcats Postgame Thread: Noah brings the HUSTLE..

[DuckIII]

I'm getting tired of reading about Wallace's shortcomings when he has another solid outing. I think some, perhaps many, people simply aren't very good at evaluating interior defense in all its facets.

Anyway, most of the game has been covered acurately. Let me add:

Good: Off the ball movement. In the 4th quarter the Bulls put on an absolute clinic for moving without the ball. It was beautiful to behold.

[nomorezorro]

What is your definition of solid? With regards to his interior defense: I recall him being very good in the 4th quarter in that aspect, but in the first 3 it seemed like there were a number of plays where he was noticably out of position. And even if his interior defense was good there are so many other aspects to the game etc etc etc and I don't see how you could call that game anything more than average, at best. It certainly wasn't the type of play that should be rewarded with 37 minutes.

I don't think people are saying that Wallace shouldn't play ever under any circumstances. It's just that, even when he's having games like this, he should only be a 20-30 mpg player. If he's going insane and getting 4 blocks/steals or 20 rebounds or something or playing exceptionally good defense, by all means play him more. He's just not doing that now, and it seems like something is wrong when people like Noah outplay him yet get only half the minutes.

[HINrichPolice]

I'm happy for Noah. He had the type of game that all of his supporters have expected from him.

However, before we all get too excited, let's see Noah give a game like this one when he's being guarded by a PF or C instead of the significantly smaller Gerald Wallace.

[JGeils]

Noah was Dougs guy from day 1.

It's not about that. Though I was giddy about the Noah pick, I assumed (because of his frame, hands, lack of offensive polish) that he'd be (for comparison's sake) offering a PER under 10 for the first few months of the season. Instead, even overcoming the early injury, he's been the team's best per-minute contributor since the get-go.

A game like the Portland game will be key. Wallace played 36 minutes against Charlotte. He's not likely to be as fresh, and needs to play about 25 minutes tonight. Smith should be the same way, to a lesser extent. Noah, Gray, and Thomas (in whatever order) need to sop up those minutes. For someone who is contributing as much as Noah has since the first week of November, he's needed to play more. 18 minutes should not be a "breakout" game for him.

[coldfish]

I'm getting tired of reading about Wallace's shortcomings when he has another solid outing. I think some, perhaps many, people simply aren't very good at evaluating interior defense in all its facets.

Or maybe I know it just as well as anyone and have written diatribes on it. Maybe the Wallace supporters choose to ignore all the areas he is poor to horrible at, just because he has one area he is above average at.

Again, its Eddy Curry all over.

Eddy supporter: "Eddy played solid tonight. 18 points on 65% shooting"
Eddy detractor: "But he played horrible defense."
Eddy supporter: "But he draws double teams when he is in the post."
Eddy detractor: "But he doesn't rebound for crap."

Wallace supporter: "Ben played solid tonight. Good interior defense."
Wallace detractor: "But he blew multiple layups on offense."
Wallace supporter: "But you aren't accounting for all of his intangibles."
Wallace detractor" "His intangibles are that he holds the ball too long on offense and allows other teams to double off of him."

[molepharmer]

Wallace - Some of you are being fooled about his overall play by the final third of the game. It's like a fighter who does nothing the first two min of a round only to pick it up the last minute to leave the judges with a positive spin. I'd bet an over whelming majority on this board wouldn't have wanted to play BW more than 5min in the second half based on his first half performance - which reeked of suckitude.

Noah - While I'm excited to see a great game by the rook, it's a bit tempered by knowing he had a SF (G Wallace) guarding him most of the night. He deserves more minutes, as does Gray, Thabo and Tyrus.

Guards, especially Gordon - Somebody needs to get it thru their thick skulls that they need to look inside for a Gray or Noah mismatch before firing up a +20' shot. Gordon looked exceptionally selfish at times last night. Don't feed me some propaganda about good ball movement when it never even goes inside.

Schedule - After Portland today, the Bulls will have played 4 of the 7 worst defenses in the league under Boylan (miss Mem, Sac & Min). Playing these powder puffs doesn't tell me much of anything about the current state of the Bulls - especially considering they barely beat Mil and were down double digits to Char in the 3rd.

[coldfish]

Guards, especially Gordon - Somebody needs to get it thru their thick skulls that they need to look inside for a Gray or Noah mismatch before firing up a +20' shot. Gordon looked exceptionally selfish at times last night. Don't feed me some propaganda about good ball movement when it never even goes inside.

I thought Gordon actually played a pretty mediocre game last night. He didnt' go to the rim much and as you said, he wasn't moving the ball. The team won last night because it clamped down on defense in the second half.

[jax98]

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I thought Gordon actually played a pretty mediocre game last night. He didnt' go to the rim much and as you said, he wasn't moving the ball. The team won last night because it clamped down on defense in the second half.

Agreed. He had that one dunk attempt that pretty much injected energy into every single Bull on the court, but besides that he was very perimeter oriented last night.

Being perimeter oriented isn't a bad thing when you're hitting shots and having the hot hand. But he was 8-20. I would really like to see him expand his offensive game to the point where he goes up strong and gets free throws for his trouble. If Ben shot 8-9 free throws a game, he'd be an offensive nightmare (More than usual) for our opponents.

[bentheredengthat]

Good: Off the ball movement. In the 4th quarter the Bulls put on an absolute clinic for moving without the ball. It was beautiful to behold.

Great point. Since the coaching change, I've felt much better about the team if only for 2 reasons: 1)better ball (and off the ball) movement on the offense and 2)intelligent rotations.

I always felt the somehow SS was a coach that brought great x's and o's, but who had a terrible feel for how a particular group at any moment on the floor was working together. Or even more so, knowing how a group would function even before he put them on the court together.

Boylan an the other hand seems to have this essential coaching quality. And when he gets it wrong, he'll call a time out, or immediately adjust the rotation.

The movement away from the ball is much better already, and fun to watch again.

Go Bulls!

Edit: Just saw that there is a whole thread talking about this - good read

[DuckIII]

I think this was a big win, it has nothing to do with how good the opponent is.

Everyone knows the talent is there with the Bulls, it's just getting over that "mental" hurdle. So far the Bulls are doing just that, and getting there "swagger" back in the process.


Joakim had a nice game today, but it was the Bobcats afterall.

I agree. Its about the way they are playing and carrying themselves that makes these games stand out.

And I'll add: I actually like Charlotte's team. I think they are underachieving this year (in part due to injuries). I'm surprised the Bulls have done so well against them, frankly. I had them picked as a team the Bulls would struggle against.

Plus, every road win is a "big win" in the NBA.

[molepharmer]

Deng not getting drawing contact - I don't remember when it was but one of the color announcers brought it up. Lu had just up faked Okafor in the lane at the basket to where Luol could simply lay the ball in the basket but Luol failed to draw contact. Kerr, King or Dore mentioned that was the perfect opportunity for Luol to get an 'and 1'. I totally agreed with them.

As others have mentioned and this play was a prime example; Lu needs to draw more contact so he can get to the line.

[DuckIII]

Or maybe I know it just as well as anyone and have written diatribes on it. Maybe the Wallace supporters choose to ignore all the areas he is poor to horrible at, just because he has one area he is above average at.

Again, its Eddy Curry all over.

Eddy supporter: "Eddy played solid tonight. 18 points on 65% shooting"
Eddy detractor: "But he played horrible defense."
Eddy supporter: "But he draws double teams when he is in the post."
Eddy detractor: "But he doesn't rebound for crap."

Wallace supporter: "Ben played solid tonight. Good interior defense."
Wallace detractor: "But he blew multiple layups on offense."
Wallace supporter: "But you aren't accounting for all of his intangibles."
Wallace detractor" "His intangibles are that he holds the ball too long on offense and allows other teams to double off of him."

The only problem with that is that it doesn't accurately describe last night's game. Wallace did blow one layup. But he wasn't a detriment offensively. He scored 7 points and was moving the ball around on offense quickly and effectively.

You are talking in generalities about the season as a whole. The last 4 games, he's been effective, a net positive, and important to the success the Bulls are having over that stretch.

And I reject the Eddy Curry comparison. Eddy could do one thing well - score in the low post. The remainder of the entirety of his game was and is garbage on both offense and defense.

Over the last 4 games, Wallace is playing strong defense and other than the inability to score, the remainder of his offensive game is solid. He's moving the ball well, setting good screens, and hitting the offensive glass.

[TB#1]

Credit needs to be given to Wallace also, though it would pain alot of people. Tonight made it four straight double figure rebounding game for Wallace..

In the past 4 games, 2.5 blks, 10.5 rebs...

I'll give some credit to Wallace. He's come alive in the Boylan era.

Still, seeing him not only in the game nearly the whole 4th quarter in a tight contest, but with the ball in his hands on offense in a decision-making capacity on most possessions is pretty gauling. Really made the game unnecesarily tense for me to see that over and over. When we don't have a comfortable lead, seeing him clank point blank layups, tossing up terrible short j's and blowing free-throws, even with the vaunted "new and improved form" is simply unbelievable.

He played well overall and even made a bucket late, but he just should NOT be touching the ball on offense in crunch time. The chance of a favorable outcome when he has possession is just not high.

[TB#1]

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketba ... 03.article

High-energy victory
Boylan's Bulls surge from 12 points down behind Gordon, Deng, Noah, Smith

January 3, 2008
BY JOHN JACKSON jjackson@suntimes.com

CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- Aside from the screaming public address announcer, the Charlotte Bobcats Arena was as quiet -- and just about as empty -- as a church on a weeknight for much of Wednesday night's game. That seemed fitting because it appeared the Bulls were about to sleepwalk through yet another performance.

But unlike earlier in the season, when a bad start usually meant a bad loss, the Bulls produced a dramatic second-half turnaround for a 109-97 victory.

''I don't know what it was; both teams were a step slow in the first half,'' Bulls guard Ben Gordon said. ''But we knew at halftime that whatever team came out and played more physical and played with more energy was going to win the game. We really made an effort to play harder.''

That effort certainly paid off as the Bulls (12-18) maintained their improved play since Jim Boylan took over as coach a week ago.

''Obviously, in the second half we came out with a lot more energy than we had in the first half,'' Boylan said. ''We didn't practice on New Year's Day. We played the New Year's Eve game and then went right to the airport [on Tuesday], so I think our legs were not quite there in the first half and our energy level was not quite where it needed to be.

''We talked about that at halftime and the guys responded, which was great. I was happy to see that.''

Gordon had a team-high 22 points and Luol Deng had a double-double with 21 points and 13 rebounds, but this was a game in which the Bulls got surprising production from their big players.

''He's got great hands, he's got great feet,'' Boylan said of Noah. ''He can move, he can cover smaller people, he can cover big people. He's a versatile guy to have your bench. You can bring him off and use him in a lot of ways.

''Tonight I thought his passing, his interior passing to Ben Wallace, was really a lift for us. We got some easy baskets in the halfcourt game combined with some of our perimeter guys knocking down some shots. It was a good combination of inside and outside.''

''Some vets told me that it's always like that after New Year's,'' Noah said of the lethargic first half. ''Having young legs, that's something I always try to provide, and that's energy. That's one of my strengths.''

Noah's offensive output -- which included a couple of thunderous dunks -- also may have been sparked by some razzing from Gordon at the shootaround.

''I was getting on him earlier, telling him that he can't dunk and I would never throw him a lob,'' Gordon said. ''He came tonight and played with a lot of energy. He had some strong finishes at the rim and he did a good job defensively.

''He's coming along and we really need that kind of play from him.''

[coldfish]

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The only problem with that is that it doesn't accurately describe last night's game. Wallace did blow one layup. But he wasn't a detriment offensively. He scored 7 points and was moving the ball around on offense quickly and effectively.

I disagree. The announcers had multiple times where they were yelling "someone get to the ball!!!" when Wallace had it, looking to pass it. The trouble was that all the defenders were denying everyone else the ball as Wallace looked around helplessly as the 24 second clock ticked down.

Beyond that, 7 points in nearly 40 minutes while given lots of opportunities is not good performance. Wallace typically gets all the same touches and looks that Noah had last night, and Noah scored twice as much in half the time. Wallace just doesn't convert because he doesn't have the skill.

You are talking in generalities about the season as a whole. The last 4 games, he's been effective, a net positive, and important to the success the Bulls are having over that stretch.

The last 4 games he has been an average NBA player. None of them have been dominant on defense or rebounding, which is what he needs to do to make up for his lack of offense, in order to have a good game.

And I reject the Eddy Curry comparison. Eddy could do one thing well - score in the low post. The remainder of the entirety of his game was and is garbage on both offense and defense.

Well, right now Wallace isn't even rebounding particularly well. His rebounding rate is far below his personal average and probably lower than your typical NBA center. His offense overall is putrid. All that he is doing is playing good defense.

Over the last 4 games, Wallace is playing strong defense and other than the inability to score, the remainder of his offensive game is solid. He's moving the ball well, setting good screens, and hitting the offensive glass.

Again, see above, he moves the ball because he gives up on the good looks that he has. His picks are nice, but half the time they lead to a trap or a double team, which is his fault.

I'll directly compare him to Noah. Noah is no offensive dynamo. However, he converts the opportunities that other players create for him. Because of that, teams are forced to pick their poison when he has the ball or is coming off a screen. That helps teammates because it creates spacing and if defenses choose to ignore Noah, he makes them pay for it.

Quite frankly, you have to expect that from every player on the court. Wallace used to be able to do that, but for whatever reason, he doesn't now. Wallace can't get a free pass for this.

Even with his offensive issues, if he was absolutely dominating in other aspects of his game, he could still be a net positive. However, his defense is merely above average and his rebounding isn't even that.

[Dieselbound&Down]

Deng's defense is beginning to concern me a bit. If it gets much worse, the Bulls are quietly going to have a defensive liability at SF with Deng and Noc - two players whose defensive reputations exceed their play.

[DuckIII]

Deng's defense is beginning to concern me a bit. If it gets much worse, the Bulls are quietly going to have a defensive liability at SF with Deng and Noc - two players whose defensive reputations exceed their play.

Last night was a prime example why Deng shouldn't be playing the 2. Having Deng guarding super-quick guys like Richardson just isn't a good idea. He'll get beat.

Deng is a 3 on both ends of the court and should always be used that way except in spot minutes, like when Boylan switched him up for a few minutes to give Michael Redd a different defensive look.

[TB#1]

Trying to compare Ben Wallace as the same kind of one-trick pony that Eddy Curry is is misleading and a gross oversimplification. True, Ben is best known as a rebounder and defender and E-City is known as a low post scorer.

BUT

Other than the ability to score in the low block, Ben Wallace is a superior player to Eddy Curry in nearly every aspect of the game.

Both players are equally pathetic scorers once you back out even a couple of feet from the basket. Obviously, advantage Curry in the low post -- by a significant margin.

Eddy shoots FTs at a slightly higher rate -- which is not really a compliment on Curry's free throw shooting.

Curry is taller.

That is all the nice things I can say about Eddy's basketball skills.

Ben is a vastly superior rebounder than Eddy.

Ben is a superior man defender than Eddy.

Ben is a vastly superior help defender than Eddy.

Ben is capable of stealing the ball and blocking shots. Eddy flat out isn't. He'll block one shot maybe every other game, which is terrible for a 7 footer. His very rare "steals" fall into the "even a blind squirrel finds an occasional nut" catagory.

Ben manages to maintain his tight defense, steal and block rate while picking up fewer personal fouls.

Ben is a vastly superior passer than Eddy and is actually capable of picking up a couple of assists per game.

Ben's ballhandling isn't superior, but it is way better than Eddy's. He turns the ball over at a much lower rate.

Ben Wallace for the most part is well conditioned. Eddy Curry has struggled with poor conditioning throughout his career.

Wallace is hard and tough. Curry is soft and mostly timid.

Wallace is a 4 time DPOY, an allstar with championship credentials. Eddy has never sniffed a post season award or allstar appearace and has been a featured player on some of the worst teams in league history, for two different franchises.


No, saying Ben and Ed are similar because each has talents and deficiencies is not an argument well taken at all, IMO.

Other than shooting, Ben Wallace has a very good skill set for the game of basketball.

Other than shooting (and even in that skill, from point blank only) Eddy Curry has a very poor skill set for the game of basketball.

[dougthonus]

No, saying Ben and Ed are similar because each has talents and deficiencies is not an argument well taken at all, IMO.

It depends how literally you take the argument.

Ben Wallace makes it a lot harder for every other player on the court to play offense. He creates traps when you use him on a pick, and he runs down the shot clock if you let him touch the ball. He usually can't finish off opportunity baskets either.

For a variety of reasons, Eddy Curry has a similar effect for his teammates on defense. When curry is in the game other players can't let their man past them because they know there will be no help. His own man will often abuse him, and he doesn't protect the glass well either. Curry on defense puts his team at a significant disadvantage.

Where I'd say the argument might fall a part a little bit is that there is no evidence that Curry helps on offense either. Curry has a good offensive skill, but he's not necessarily a good offensive player. He can't take advantage of all the double teams he gets, and he often becomes a black hole. Wallace (generally) isn't hurting the Bulls on defense, so at least his strength is providing a net positive on that end of the floor. Curry's strength isn't really doing that most of the time.

However, Wallace's defensive contributions are only a minor positive to me while his offensive deficiencies are a far greater negative. I do think Wallace has a place on the team, i just wish it was a place of playing 20 minutes a night. Last night was a good example where in the first half he played awful for 18 minutes, but he got to keep going. He somewhat turned it around in the second half. I just wish our young players would get as much rope.

[BobbyBulls]

I'm happy for Noah. He had the type of game that all of his supporters have expected from him.

However, before we all get too excited, let's see Noah give a game like this one when he's being guarded by a PF or C instead of the significantly smaller Gerald Wallace.

I agree. All Noah's baskets came around the hoop. Can he do this if he's covered by a big? And it's not like Gerald Wallace wasn't scoring on Noah. This reminds me of the game Tyrus had against the Pistons. Sure he scored a lot but Detroit went with the matchup and Rasheed torched Tyrus on the other end. Tonight will be a good test for Noah. I'm pulling for him.