Jim Boylan on 670 The Score

[AirP.]

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Are you honestly comparing Ben Gordon's situation to Tyrus Thomas? Stop.

Gordon was an NBA-Ready player when he was drafted, and had a good college career. Tyrus was the complete opposite. Gordon might not be a stud defensively, but he does know the game of basketball as a whole. Tyrus is brain-dead when it comes to basketball, he's just a good athlete.

That wasn't a personal attack, that was saying the word he said about Tyrus and saying that something that blatantly wrong busts his credibility.

Wow, **edit** you just don't understand how much credibility you lose just saying that. Please, atleast say something that true and quit painting everything into your BG world.

Gordon does one thing, shoot the ball well, other then that I don't see much basketball IQ coming from him, maybe it's how he'll drive the lane and get blocked, lose the ball or throw it away? Maybe it's some of the crazy shots he puts up that shows his basketball IQ, maybe it's him recognizing double teams and jacking up a shot instead of finding an open man that makes you understand how good his basketball IQ is.

Who knows... maybe it's his basketball IQ that tells him just because he's strong and athletic doesn't exactly mean he can be a good defensive player by hustling like Kirk does so he doesn't do it.

He does have a nice crossover, too bad he can't just maintain his dribble with a defender actually putting pressure on him.

He's a chucker that happens to be an elite shooter in this league, no where have I seen that he even has an average basketball IQ, he's a scorer and that's it, end of story.

Edited personal attack

[theanimal23]

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Of course he wasn't the sole reason for our play, but he played very well and helped us win. Winning and playing young guys wasn't mutually exclusive then. Why is it now?

I sense a huge division amongst this board and it stems frm two things, and both are intertwined with Ty:

1. Vets vs Youngsters: Playing the Vets means we are not contending. That is one opinion on this board. The opposite is that playing the Vets helps our chances to contend now and later.

2. Ty Thomas: Can either be a very solid player, possible All-Star or will never amount to anything more than a role player/serviceable guy.

The faction that believes that playing the young ones or playing Ty is detrimental to this team is enjoying the ride for now, as Boylan has said he will ride out the Vets.

The other faction, whom I am a member of, who wants to see a heavy dose of Ty (especially) along with tons of Noah and Gray, is extremely frustrated from watching Bulls games and honestly much of the joy is taken away. I would not be saddened watching games if we were winning as we expected into this season with tons of PT from Wallace, Smith, and Noce. But that is the opposite.

I have nothing against Joe Smith the person, or even the player, but I hate what he represents and that is being an Average Joe who is neither good or bad but takes away minutes. And Wallace, kudos to him playing better now. Kudos. But I think if you gave the same minutes to some of the youngsters for throughout the year, our ability to go to the promise land increases significantly over the course of the next year vs giving those minutes to Wallace.

[AirP.]

Wow, the playoffs are more important then developing towards a better team in the near future.

I'll make a note of that... and hopefully in a few years we can say, well atleast we made the playoffs 5 straight seasons, never saw the 3rd round but boy did we had a pretty good team.

[Red Larrivee]

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Wow, brain-dead, you just don't understand how much credibility you lose just saying that. Please, atleast say something that true and quit painting everything into your BG world.

Gordon does one thing, shoot the ball well, other then that I don't see much basketball IQ coming from him, maybe it's how he'll drive the lane and get blocked, lose the ball or throw it away? Maybe it's some of the crazy shots he puts up that shows his basketball IQ, maybe it's him recognizing double teams and jacking up a shot instead of finding an open man that makes you understand how good his basketball IQ is.

Who knows... maybe it's his basketball IQ that tells him just because he's strong and athletic doesn't exactly mean he can be a good defensive player by hustling like Kirk does so he doesn't do it.

He does have a nice crossover, too bad he can't just maintain his dribble with a defender actually putting pressure on him.

He's a chucker that happens to be an elite shooter in this league, no where have I seen that he even has an average basketball IQ, he's a scorer and that's it, end of story.

How are you going to call someone a chucker, and then downplay that he has one of the most lethal shots in the league?

You compared Tyrus Thomas's current situation to Ben Gordon's. It's dumb. No, I'm not painting everything into my "BG World." I like Ben Gordon, probably my favorite player on the team. But i'm not dumb, and I know what the deal is with him. You don't seem to know what the deal is with Tyrus Thomas. You're not making Tyrus look better by comparing him to Gordon. You're making yourself look like a blind Tyrus fan, just like a couple of other people on this board who seem to think that this guy is Carlos Boozer, Amare Stoudamire, and Shawn Marion sitting on the bench.

Ben Gordon is a good scorer, he's good at scoring. And last I checked, it takes a good basketball IQ to be a good scorer in the NBA. Sure Gordon is bad at taking contact, and it's mainly due to him being undersized, and not having consistent handles. I won't deny that, but don't down play that dude, like he's some idiot who gives the ball up purposely. Gordon isn't a good defender. Fine. But what he does on offense, easily makes up for that. If what Gordon did offensively wasn't making up for what he lacks defensively, he wouldn't be getting heavy minutes at all. Gordon knows his role, and knows basketball. And he has proven it in college, and in the NBA. Can you say the same for Tyrus Thomas? Hell no you can't. Because he doesn't know the game, doesn't know his role, and all he does is jump high. What Tyrus does is because of athleticism. What Gordon does is because of skill.

I want Tyrus to play good minutes just as much as everyone else here, but don't start comparing him to players who are clearly better basketball players than him and are in different roles.

edited out language and some personal attacks - doug

[#1TKfan]

woah dude!

[theanimal23]

Red, many want Tyrus to play more for the following reasons:

1. He's not much worse than anyone playing ahead of him (see Wallace). There has been some disagreement with this notion.

2. He along with the other young guys will be the difference between a 2nd round exit or possibly making the finals one day. To me, a 1st round exit or a 2nd round exit is the same B.S. Especially if and when your team is expected to either make the next step or is making it this far for 5-6 years in a row. If we don't make the ECF with Wallace, Smith, and Noce, then this season has been a huge failure IMO. One that would devastate me more than going 23 and whatever knowing that we are rebuilding. Because we were suppose to improve this year significantly through the internal development of our youth.

3. We drafted him knowing he has potential/talent, but if we fail to ***attempt*** to develop that, we failed from the start. For me, I can be okay with Tyrus being a failure (I hope not) because it was a calculated risk. But I cannot accept if we do not give him the opportunity to succeed. Portland has done well because they are playing the young guys as we did in 03-04. Sure those rookies then were more experienced, but it's not as if Tyrus has shown no signs of progress or impact. He has as a rookie and this year. He has just never had the opportunity to consistantly get PT. He's not going Sefolosha on us. If he was, I wouldn't advocate playing him.

[Ralphb07]

How can you guys seriously say Thomas is better than Wallace????

First Thomas could never play the center spot, he would foul out in 10 minutes due to his 215lbs.

Second Wallace has been consistent. Yeah he has had up and downs but who hasnt on this team. I also think it was how Skiles would use him. Tyson has said it and look at Tyson with us and with the Hornets. he was free in NO, thats why his numbers are where they are.

Since Boylan has been coach he hasnt had a game below 10rebs, his defense is good and he doesnt foul when he defends, his blks and steals have been good.

Enough with the Tyrus is GOD stuff. I actually really liked Tyrus but after hearing all you guys, it really makes me dislike him. if he was as good as you all THINK, he would play. Plain and simple

[#1TKfan]

Red, many want Tyrus to play more for the following reasons:

1. He's not much worse than anyone playing ahead of him (see Wallace). There has been some disagreement with this notion.

2. He along with the other young guys will be the difference between a 2nd round exit or possibly making the finals one day. To me, a 1st round exit or a 2nd round exit is the same B.S. Especially if and when your team is expected to either make the next step or is making it this far for 5-6 years in a row. If we don't make the ECF with Wallace, Smith, and Noce, then this season has been a huge failure IMO. One that would devastate me more than going 23 and whatever knowing that we are rebuilding. Because we were suppose to improve this year significantly through the internal development of our youth.

3. We drafted him knowing he has potential/talent, but if we fail to ***attempt*** to develop that, we failed from the start. For me, I can be okay with Tyrus being a failure (I hope not) because it was a calculated risk. But I cannot accept if we do not give him the opportunity to succeed. Portland has done well because they are playing the young guys as we did in 03-04. Sure those rookies then were more experienced, but it's not as if Tyrus has shown no signs of progress or impact. He has as a rookie and this year. He has just never had the opportunity to consistantly get PT. He's not going Sefolosha on us. If he was, I wouldn't advocate playing him.

just want to understand this better. do you believe there is any chance for an ECF trip w/ this group?

[AirP.]

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How are you going to call someone a chucker, and then downplay that he has one of the most lethal shots in the league?

You compared Tyrus Thomas's current situation to Ben Gordon's. It's dumb. No, I'm not painting everything into my "BG World." I like Ben Gordon, probably my favorite player on the team. But i'm not dumb, and I know what the deal is with him. You don't seem to know what the deal is with Tyrus Thomas. You're not making Tyrus look better by comparing him to Gordon. You're making yourself look like a blind Tyrus fan, just like a couple of other people on this board who seem to think that this guy is Carlos Boozer, Amare Stoudamire, and Shawn Marion sitting on the bench.

Ben Gordon is a good scorer, he's good at scoring. And last I checked, it takes a good basketball IQ to be a good scorer in the NBA. Sure Gordon is bad at taking contact, and it's mainly due to him being undersized, and not having consistent handles. I won't deny that, but don't down play that dude, like he's some idiot who gives the ball up purposely. Gordon isn't a good defender. Fine. But what he does on offense, easily makes up for that. If what Gordon did offensively wasn't making up for what he lacks defensively, he wouldn't be getting heavy minutes at all. Gordon knows his role, and knows basketball. And he has proven it in college, and in the NBA. Can you say the same for Tyrus Thomas? Hell no you can't. Because he doesn't know the game, doesn't know his role, and all he does is jump high. What Tyrus does is because of athleticism. What Gordon does is because of skill.

I want Tyrus to play good minutes just as much as everyone else here, but don't start comparing him to players who are clearly better basketball players than him and are in different roles.

edited out language and some personal attacks - doug

I compared what you said, Tyrus being wild with Gordon being wild, wild shots, wild drives, wild passes. If anything Gordon is more wild then Tyrus overall.

No it doesn't take a high basketball IQ to be a scorer the way Gordon is. Now if he was creative attacking the basket that would be one thing but he just uses his quickness to get into the lane weather it's open or not that's not basketball IQ, that's using your ATHLETIC ABILITY and a good amount of the time something bad happens, carries, bad shot, blocked shot, travel or a bad pass, that's the mark of bad basketball IQ because he doesn't know when to attack the basket and when not to.

Gordon's good at what he does, shooting. It doesn't take a high IQ to get a ball take a dribble or 2 and shoot it, you can say he's highly skilled shooting the ball but other then that he's really got nothing special or even average. Handles, nope, passing, nope, defense, nope, but he has some flashy one on one moves which don't take basketball IQ but just practice... so he has one on one skills.

But hey, atleast Gordon isn't the lowest +/- per minute, he is the lowest +/- overall for the season for the Bulls though so he's probably one of the biggest reasons for this horrible record they have right now, and in your words and Pippens, dumb ol' Tyrus with all his screwups is basically tied with J.Smith, and ahead of Wallace, Nocioni, Hinrich and Gordon. Yet as you said... we'd be tanking if we used Tyrus even though we've been better overall with him on the court per minute then the other guys.

Proof is in the stats...
http://www.nba.com/statistics/lenovo/le ... team=Bulls

[DuckIII]

I like Ben Gordon, probably my favorite player on the team.

[theanimal23]

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just want to understand this better. do you believe there is any chance for an ECF trip w/ this group?

I do think there is. But I think that hinges on the development of primarily Tyrus and Noah, and some by Gray. I'll take anything from Sefo.

If you ask me, what would I rather have: A Good seeding heading into the playoffs (say 4 and better) with estabilished play from the Vets, or a 6-7 seed with us finishing the season strong with solid play from the young bigs, I'll take the latter.

It's all about riding momentum IMO and having the talent estabilishd playoff time. Look at GSW. Utah was the 5 seed. NJ I believe was a lower seed. The better team usually wins. And Momentum plays a huge part of it. As a Boys can, I'm scared of playing the Skins. I do think they'll win this weekend. They were not the best team earlier in the year, but they are clickin damn well right now.

I personally see Wallace & Smith taking us to the playoffs (It is the East), but us not advancing past the second round at all.

I also believe that if we gave Ty/Noah/Gray a longer leash, we would lose a few more games currently but be better off for a strong and long playoff run. I fully believe that.

The issue is, Pax may need to make a consolidation trade using either Smith or Noce to land a big PG/SG.

I would not mind moving Smith and say Duhon for Andre Miller.

[The ROY]

Noc & Duhon for Maggette..I'm aboard for that one

G Hinrich / Gordon
G Maggette / Sefo
F Deng / TT
F Smith / Noah / TT
C Wallace / Gray

So basically TT get's Noc's minutes..

Pax definintely won't trade him though, it's just dreaming on my part

[Hangtime84]

ANY sport team must have consistently (rotations) and peak during the playoffs.

I think the right now we just trying to develop some chemistry amongst 8 people. Then after that try and develop the young front court that we have.

I'm sure we all/including the bulls organization know Wallace/Smith front court won't bring us a championship, but just mere a playoff team.

[richard]

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Of course he wasn't the sole reason for our play, but he played very well and helped us win. Winning and playing young guys wasn't mutually exclusive then. Why is it now?

last year, who were they trying to develop? it was only thomas and thabo. this year, its thomas, thabo, gray, and noah. its mutually exclusive because that's 1/3 of the roster you're trying to develop at the same time as trying to win. it can't work.

[Cliff Levingston]

ANY sport team must have consistently (rotations) and peak during the playoffs.

I think the right now we just trying to develop some chemistry amongst 8 people. Then after that try and develop the young front court that we have.

That's basically exactly what Boylan said today on the radio. A major problem for this team is that it has too many players that command minutes, and Cliff Levingston wasn't happy with Pax for getting both Smith and Nocioni in the offseason. Boylan is 100% vindicated in shortening the rotation and trying to get some continuity going, it's just a shame that it has to come at the expense of the development of our young guys.

I'm sure we all/including the bulls organization know Wallace/Smith front court won't bring us a championship, but just mere a playoff team.

Which is the worst place to be in professional sports; good enough to not get an impact rookie in the draft but bad enough to where you can't win the title.

[AirP.]

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Which is the worst place to be in professional sports; good enough to not get an impact rookie in the draft but bad enough to where you can't win the title.

Ask Minnesota... KG was good enough to carry a team and make them good...

[bullzman23]

We might want to clear up some potential misinformation. Boylan DID NOT say that he talks to Skiles regularly. He simply said he gave him a call to see how he's doing. When people want to talk about how they dislike Boylan, hopefully they won't say because he consults Skiles. There's no indication of that happening.

Also he said that he believes you need to ride the vets because they set the tone of your team. He never said that he's playing the vets because they're playing really well. He believes it takes vets to set the tone. I don't disagree.

He also said that under him, the vets have all played extremely well, and that if something changes he'll be prepared to make a lineup change.

Mike North was annoying as hell in that interview.

[BULLHITTER]

Mike North was annoying as hell in that interview.

mike north is annoying to read about in this thread.....the jerry springer of radio.

my apologies to springer.

[JeremyB0001]

The complaints about not playing the youngsterS is misplaced. Aaron Gray is a youngster and he's managed to find a place in the rotation. Joakim Noah is a youngster who increasingly is finding his way into the rotation. Thabo hasn't as much, but has managed to get in a little more of late.

Its really only Tyrus Thomas.

Some insist that he should get in there and get 30 minutes per night so he will get experience.

The question is -- why is it him and only him that has been stuck on the bench?

This is demonstrably false. Noah has played 4 minutes and 0 minutes in two games under Boylan. The only reason he saw time in the game where he played four minutes is that Gray got into quick foul trouble and was therefore pulled. Boylan's rotations have been pretty consistent. He put in Tyrus at PF to start the second quarter in his first game, Noah in to start the second quarter at PF, Tyrus for the third, and then went to Noah first last night. It seems to me that he's shortened the rotations and is alternating which young big gets first crack at being the third string backup each night so that neither is "buried" on the bench. According to some of the post in this thread, Boylan said exactly that on ESPN 1000 today, with the exception that he claims whether Tyrus or Noah plays on a given night is based on match ups.

[aaqubed]

Tyrus wasn't solely the reason for it. Anybody who acts like it is fooling themselves. The hole that this team dug itself out of last season wasn't as big as this one, and was pretty easy to dig out of as well. Weaker eastern conference, easier schedule, more home games, etc.

He wasn't the SOLE reason for it. But he was a pretty strong contributor. And I think that's enough proof that he CAN contribute to a winning team right now.