Pippen vs. Jordan (exclude scoring)

[Joseph17]

Who was better if you don't consider scoring? It's pretty obvious that Pippen is better than Kobe if you don't include scoring. Is he better than Jordan though?

[NO-KG-AI]

I don't think so, Jordan was a better defender IMO, and probably a better playmaker(it sure looked like it when he was forced to play point)

[EHL]

^ Yes, just to a lesser degree obviously. Pippen was arguably the better defender (conclusive IMO taking consistency into account), obviously better rebounder and probably a better passer too. Jordan was a pretty underrated passer though, actually.

[Patterns]

Who was better if you don't consider scoring? It's pretty obvious that Pippen is better than Kobe if you don't include scoring. Is he better than Jordan though?

I don't think it is obvious.

[G35]

Isn't Bill Russell the greatest of all if you didn't include scoring.

Jason Kidd might be the greatest if you don't include scoring.......

[JordansBulls]

Who was better if you don't consider scoring? It's pretty obvious that Pippen is better than Kobe if you don't include scoring. Is he better than Jordan though?

Yeah a guy who won 6 titles but didn't manage to get 1 league or finals mvp while on the team with a guy who led in PER 7x, Wins Shares 7+x, Player Wins 8x, OWS 8x and won 5 League MVP's, 6 Finals MVP and had 10 top 3 MVP finishes the most in history. If you take that away from MJ, then maybe they are similar.

[Raskolnikov]

Isn't Bill Russell the greatest of all if you didn't include scoring.

Jason Kidd might be the greatest if you don't include scoring.......

How do you figure Russell was better than Wilt in... anything?

[G35]

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How do you figure Russell was better than Wilt in... anything?

11 rings........

[Jordan23Forever]

I honestly think that the only edges Pippen had on Jordan were slightly better team defense (rotations, taking charges in the halfcourt etc.) and maybe a slight rebounding edge. I say "maybe" because Jordan proved more capable of getting you 12+ boards (or big rebounds) when you needed it than Pippen was. It was Jordan, not Pippen, who Jackson frequently put on inside position late in games against some of the league's best rebounders to secure crucial boards; it was Jordan, not Pippen, who averaged nearly 8 reb/gm in the '97 playoffs when Rodman was nearly useless, and 9+ reb/gm in '97 when Rodman was out for a stretch of games. The list of times Jordan came up with huge rebounds in the 4th quarter (offensive and defensive) is endless; I can't say the same about Pippen's list.

As far as passing, I believe that Jordan was both a better passer (degree of difficulty and percent completed; passing skill with both hands) and playmaker (pretty easily due to the defensive attention he drew and his aggressive style). Pippen had more assists than Jordan in the early 90's because A) he was able to pass to Jordan, a dominant scorer (about a third of Pip's assists came this way); and B) that was his role in the offense more so than Jordan's.

Placed in similar roles, with similar expectations (i.e., Jordan would just have to average 19-22 ppg as a secondary star on a team, hence less defensive pressure on him), I don't think there is a single thing other than perhaps team defense that Pippen would do better than Jordan. And when I say "do better" I mean "be perceived as doing better due to higher rebound/assist numbers," since like I said, I believe Jordan to be superior in those areas anyway.

Jordan was, in my opinion, the most well-rounded player to ever play, capable of giving you absolutely anything on the court on both ends on any given night. Shame he gets pigeonholed a bit due to his scoring prowess. Pippen is right there, however. And regardless of how you rank them as all-around players relative to each other, they're both among the top 5 all-around players of all time at the very least.

[Elway=GOAT]

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I don't think it is obvious.

I do, he was a better all around player than Kobe, that Jordan was lucky to play with and vice versa. It is just one of those things...

Jordan showed that he could do almost anything Pippen can do, except slightly better. Pippen excelled at his role and what he did, and a prime, motivated, not being a diva was much better than a player like Tmac, or Pierce or whatever elite swing man in the league there is today, and only a notch lower than Kobe imo. I think Pippen had the better overall game, but Kobe and has scoring ability is so much farther than anything Pippen has on him(even though I believe Pippen is slightly better, or atleast even in almost every aspect of the game) I have to put him up ahead of Pippen.

But rest assured, he played in MJ's shadow and if he played today, as his own man people would be riding his junk so hard. He would be up there with Kobe in the, "who is better at this age", "can he be better" "will he be better", etc. Pippen was the ****, and a lot of people considered him the second best player in the league.

For all the hype, that Malone, Drob(who to me was very underrated), akeem/hakeem, ewing, stockton, barkley, young Shaq, etc...A lot of people looked at Pippen as the second best player in the game, only to you know who. I think when he got old and played for the Rockets and Blazers it took a little bit of the zing of Pippens name. They forgot a little bit how great he really was, and how people rode him like crazy in the 90's.

Jordan was better, in pretty much every aspect, but not by much. Pippen was right there. It was a match made in heaven. Like Montana/Rice, Brady /Moss, Elway/TD, Kobe/Shaq, Duncan/whatever overrated euro you can put next to him.

[hermes]

jordan

[NYKnick87]

Jordan fans are so sensitive.

[G35]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/ch ... ials_class

"With a guy who loved to touch it and shoot all the time, I was able to keep him under control," Pippen said, referring, of course, to Michael Jordan. "That didn't come from the bench, it came from making the right decisions. You try to make the game fun for everyone and then we were able to find Mike. The games I felt he was getting off too much, I'd find a way to get other guys off. And then guys weren't running at him all the time and he could take off in the right place."

But Pippen? The guy who had the migraine headache, the 1.8-seconds-left strike, the sundry embarrassing episodes? Yes, Pippen, the player Phil Jackson entrusted to run the triangle offense. Teammates regarded him as one of the smartest players in the league, and trusted him to involve them in the game.

As Pippen likes to say, "How many titles did Jordan win without me?"
Their fierce rivalry and competition fueled those championship Bulls teams. No one could slack off watching the two go at one another in practice the way they did. The games became the easy part.I recall Steve Kerr remarking that Pippen was the one who'd know when you needed a shot to find your rhythm and where you felt comfortable getting the ball. Pippen would consult with Jackson on defensive strategy, and it was he who suggested he take Magic Johnson in the 1991 Finals, which proved decisive.

[Jordan23Forever]

Pip comes off as really arrogant (undeservedly so) in that article. Yeah, you "kept him under control" -- and he just happened to carry your a$$ in 85% of 4th quarters when your shot would desert you.

[NYKnick87]

Pip comes off as really arrogant (undeservedly so) in that article. Yeah, you "kept him under control" -- and he just happened to carry your a$$ in 85% of 4th quarters when your shot would desert you.

What about what Steve Kerr said? Also, his shot deserting him doesn't matter as we are talking about everything other than scoring. His shot may have deserted him, but his defense, passing and rebounding were all there.

[G35]

Pip comes off as really arrogant (undeservedly so) in that article. Yeah, you "kept him under control" -- and he just happened to carry your a$$ in 85% of 4th quarters when your shot would desert you.

[Raskolnikov]

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11 rings........

Wilt was the better scorer, passer, rebounder, and defender when he gave up scoring. This was admitted by Russell himself. Perhaps Russell was better at getting laid? Wait nah.....

[EHL]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-071230pippen-bulls,0,5761395.story?coll=chi_news_specials_class

"With a guy who loved to touch it and shoot all the time, I was able to keep him under control," Pippen said, referring, of course, to Michael Jordan. "That didn't come from the bench, it came from making the right decisions. You try to make the game fun for everyone and then we were able to find Mike. The games I felt he was getting off too much, I'd find a way to get other guys off. And then guys weren't running at him all the time and he could take off in the right place."

But Pippen? The guy who had the migraine headache, the 1.8-seconds-left strike, the sundry embarrassing episodes? Yes, Pippen, the player Phil Jackson entrusted to run the triangle offense. Teammates regarded him as one of the smartest players in the league, and trusted him to involve them in the game.

As Pippen likes to say, "How many titles did Jordan win without me?"
Their fierce rivalry and competition fueled those championship Bulls teams. No one could slack off watching the two go at one another in practice the way they did. The games became the easy part.I recall Steve Kerr remarking that Pippen was the one who'd know when you needed a shot to find your rhythm and where you felt comfortable getting the ball. Pippen would consult with Jackson on defensive strategy, and it was he who suggested he take Magic Johnson in the 1991 Finals, which proved decisive.

Interesting that Phil Jackson and Winters have said more or less the same things on numerous occasions, especially how Pippen had to be the leader and consummate professional when Jordan would bring down his teammates.

[G35]

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Wilt was the better scorer, passer, rebounder, and defender when he gave up scoring. This was admitted by Russell himself. Perhaps Russell was better at getting laid? Wait nah.....

11 rings.........

[JordansBulls]

Pippen had a habit in not showing up in big games most of the time.

Take for example this game in the playoffs.

http://motorcitybadboys.com/box90eastconffinalsgm7.html